School homework has 'no real benefit'

Ickle Magoo

MissHoneyBun wrote: »

How would google explain how you think your inference of something validates your point?

Seriously now, what's this 'liberal-learning style' that you think schools are 'failing miserably' at? And secondly, what's the correlation between that and your point regarding the merits/non-merits of homework?

Why are you being so defensive? If you had read anything regarding the philosophy of education you'd know the learning styles - there are thousands of articles and literature regarding them and their merits and criticisms. If I don't understand a term someone uses, I view that as my issue and I go and read up on it, I don't demand they do my homework for me.

Nevyn

Reading with your kids is important, I do it anyway, both mine read above their age group, we also did the extra reading assignments with the primary school.

I also get the letting parents know how their kids are progressing but a full page of maths and then a page of mental maths, a page of english and then reading, tables, Irish and English spellings and then occasionally history and geography written work and
spell bound workbook.

Some nights it runs to 90mins plus and that's just 5th class.

Chaotic_Forces

Thaedydal wrote: »

Reading with your kids is important, I do it anyway, both mine read above their age group, we also did the extra reading assignments with the primary school.

I also get the letting parents know how their kids are progressing but a full page of maths and then a page of mental maths, a page of english and then reading, tables, Irish and English spellings and then occasionally history and geography written work and
spell bound workbook.

Some nights it runs to 90mins plus and that's just 5th class.

Sometimes it just is too much even for the brightest kids and the most paitent of parents...

I think it should be a bit of light reading (a page or two) each night followed by some math and then one other subject. Tables (I assume you mean math tables) are a horrible idea. They... started me and most others on the whole thing of "memorize and thou shalt succeed" which is a pile of rubbish.

What is the difference between "maths" and "mental maths"?
And what is "spell bound" work?

lily09

Thaedydal wrote: »

Reading with your kids is important, I do it anyway, both mine read above their age group, we also did the extra reading assignments with the primary school.

I also get the letting parents know how their kids are progressing but a full page of maths and then a page of mental maths, a page of english and then reading, tables, Irish and English spellings and then occasionally history and geography written work and
spell bound workbook.

Some nights it runs to 90mins plus and that's just 5th class.

Way too much imo, find out what the official length of homework is for 5th class cant remember off hand but if you google it its on the curriciculum website. Stop after that legnth of time and write a note for teacher. Your kids are obviously bright if they are above reading age so they are not taking too long because they are weak.

Nevyn

Tables which then are unlearnt as they have calculators in secondary school and no adult I know of will do long division by hand these days.

Maths as in a exercise from the maths book exercise 2 parts a to f
and then mental maths is a work book with 20 small problems per day,
random stuff from sequences to the digital clock and fractions.

Spell bound is the same sort of stuff but with english, put words in alphabetical order,
make small words out of them, but the word best suited in a scented, use words in a crossword.

Nevyn

lily09 wrote: »

Way too much imo, find out what the official length of homework is for 5th class cant remember off hand but if you google it its on the curriciculum website. Stop after that legnth of time and write a note for teacher. Your kids are obviously bright if they are above reading age so they are not taking too long because they are weak.

Alas incomplete homework even with a note equals a loss of one of the 5 merits for the day which have to be accumulated to get the award at the end of term.

iguana

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Why are you being so defensive? If you had read anything regarding the philosophy of education you'd know the learning styles - there are thousands of articles and literature regarding them and their merits and criticisms. If I don't understand a term someone uses, I view that as my issue and I go and read up on it, I don't demand they do my homework for me.

Afaik MissHoneyBun is a trainee teacher.

Chaotic_Forces

Thaedydal wrote: »

Tables which then are unlearnt as they have calculators in secondary school and no adult I know of will do long division by hand these days.

Maths as in a exercise from the maths book exercise 2 parts a to f
and then mental maths is a work book with 20 small problems per day,
random stuff from sequences to the digital clock and fractions.

Spell bound is the same sort of stuff but with english, put words in alphabetical order,
make small words out of them, but the word best suited in a scented, use words in a crossword.

Wow; times have feckin' changed. I thought I had it bad in seconday school...

TBH, long divsion is needed (you have to show your work). Yes, it's far easier to do it on a calculator but even I try work things out in my head still, it's kind of nice in a weird way to be quick with numbers.

Tables are horrible for one simple reason: copy and recite/write. If it was a case of "do 1-5 multiple tables, learn how they work (why 9 times 5 is 45) instead of just "9 x 5 = 45" you would have a good reason then.

lily09

Thaedydal wrote: »

Alas incomplete homework even with a note equals a loss of one of the 5 merits for the day which have to be accumulated to get the award at the end of term.

I can see your stuck between a rock and a hard place.IMO its one thing if the child is doing it on purpose another thing if the parent can see the homework is a problem. Your child should not be doing more than the reccomended amount and I would never expect them to do more.

By the way I hate those "spellbound" books just filling in blanks

metrovelvet

Thaedydal wrote: »

Tables which then are unlearnt as they have calculators in secondary school and no adult I know of will do long division by hand these days.

Maths as in a exercise from the maths book exercise 2 parts a to f
and then mental maths is a work book with 20 small problems per day,
random stuff from sequences to the digital clock and fractions.

Spell bound is the same sort of stuff but with english, put words in alphabetical order,
make small words out of them, but the word best suited in a scented, use words in a crossword.

OMG that sounds so dreary...

I feel so old. I still do long division by hand.

I dunno... I still think they should know the tables and not rely on the calculator so much....

MissHoneyBun

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Why are you being so defensive? If you had read anything regarding the philosophy of education you'd know the learning styles - there are thousands of articles and literature regarding them and their merits and criticisms. If I don't understand a term someone uses, I view that as my issue and I go and read up on it, I don't demand they do my homework for me.

Since when is asking somebody to explain their argument being defensive? This is a discussion board, if you make sweeping, irrational remarks it's normal to have them questioned.

I've asked you twice now to explain what 'liberal-learning styles' you're referring to, why you think they're 'failing miserably' and ultimately how they correlate to the original topic of homework. You respond by making tenuous references to philosophy, whilst resorting to sarcasm and smilies and still not answering the question. That in itself says it all.

Also, I'm not sure why your buddies feel the need to chime in with comments about my personal life and nothing else. It's tantamount to bullying and wholly unnecessary.

iguana

MissHoneyBun wrote: »

Also, I'm not sure why your buddies feel the need to chime in with comments about my personal life and nothing else. It's tantamount to bullying and wholly unnecessary.

This is a thread on an aspect of education and you are a trainee teacher which you have posted on the boards before, so I'm sorry if you feel it's your personal life but, tbh, I felt it was relevant in the context. Your initial comment came across to me as a repetition of something from a textbook rather than a genuine opinion, especially as it completely ignored the study this thread is about or the personal experiences of people that the education system has failed.

byhookorbycrook

Homework which has a proper purpose ( not like Lisa Simpson once said "pointless busy work") is worthwhile.
We have just finished our shared maths programme with second class, first class are doing shared reading and I can see the children improve from day to day.

Tables are tables are tables, sometimes you just have to do rote learning.

Reading in some form every night is essential.

Spelling, however is a different kettle of fish. Sending home a list of word to be "learnt" for ye olde traditional Friday spelling test is pretty pointless. The same children will get 20/20 with no effort while the child with a specific learning difficulty will get nothing from the execise but a further dent in self-esteem. Check out Brendan Culligan and his approach to spelling.

Chaotic_Forces

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Sending home a list of word to be "learnt" for ye olde traditional Friday spelling test is pretty pointless. The same children will get 20/20 with no effort while the child with a specific learnnig difficulty will get nothing from the execise but a further dent in self-esteem.

Firstly, it wasn't homework she was on about but it was just "busy work", literally. Like most teachers hand out when they have will to continue.*

Secondly: there is no difference between learning that 10 x 10 = 100 than there is with learning "b o t t o o m spells "bottom"".

*Sorry, I do like the simpsons and no every episode off by hear from season 1 - 10. :P

Nevyn

MissHoneyBun if you have an issue with a post report it, do not attack other posters.

metrovelvet

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

"b o t t o o m spells "bottom"".

Lol.

Teacher will give you a spanking on your bottoom.

Chaotic_Forces

metrovelvet wrote: »

Lol.

Teacher will give you a spanking on your bottoom.

You know what I meant...

Ickle Magoo

MissHoneyBun wrote: »

Since when is asking somebody to explain their argument being defensive? This is a discussion board, if you make sweeping, irrational remarks it's normal to have them questioned.

I've asked you twice now to explain what 'liberal-learning styles' you're referring to, why you think they're 'failing miserably' and ultimately how they correlate to the original topic of homework. You respond by making tenuous references to philosophy, whilst resorting to sarcasm and smilies and still not answering the question. That in itself says it all.

Also, I'm not sure why your buddies feel the need to chime in with comments about my personal life and nothing else. It's tantamount to bullying and wholly unnecessary.

The wink was highlighting a jovial response regarding homework - which was both a play on the topic of discussion and because I thought I remembered you previously stating you were in the field of education; this isn't a life or death situation, no one is going to lose their job over it. It's just an open discussion, relax.

There is nothing left unexplained just by reading my posts, I'm not sure why you either want nor require spoon-feeding. Liberalism is a very, very famous teaching philosophy and is of itself a self-explanatory descriptor for that very reason - I don't know why you'd think it tenuous nor irrational; it's one of the pillars modern state-run education in the west has been built around and to suggest otherwise is frankly laughable. However, this discussion isn't about my terminology nor any ignorance of those terms for that matter and I see no reason to turn into such. If you have an issue with the actual point I've made then by all means raise a coherent argument to counter it but petty demands to explain globally recognised educational principles and what comes across as rabid defence of a system that churns out 1 in 4 with literacy/numeracy issues hardly constitutes discussion, rational or otherwise.

I'm not sure how posting information you yourself have freely proffered on numerous fora suddenly constitutes an invasion of privacy. I don't think it's very honest to claim professional opinion when it suits and cry that people are delving into your private life when it doesn't. Between claims of sweeping statements, irrationality, sarcasm and bullying, it's all starting to verge on the hysterical. This is a discussion on the merits of homework; I've brought up criticisms of classroom methodology which are borne out by both the volume of parental, student and professional criticism levelled at the current education system - note, not teachers and their individual teaching styles - and all available statistics on literacy issues observed in school pupils and school leavers. If you wish to counter that point - or have any evidence to the contrary - then we can have a discussion. :cool:

Fittle

I just have to report on our success last night (at homework time)!

Firstly Thaed, I'd like to thank you for starting this thread which I've read from the start and my thought processes around homework and what it means in our house for my 8yr old, have shifted dramatically. I began reading this last week, and then over the weekend, and last night was our first homework routine since my mind opened up to the very different thoughts out there on what homework actually means.

To me, homework was just something we had to 'go' through before we began to enjoy our evening. It was like we did homework as quickly as possible, just to get it out of the way so we could sit and have a chat about our day/have his bath/do bedtime routine etc.

But last night - I felt very differently about homework. It took us just under an hour - and was helped dramatically by the fact that he brought home all the right books:D - but I could actually see the learning that was taking place. I could see that teaching him to spell 'muinteoir' in a sing-song way (as opposed to my usual annoyance ) had a really positive impact on him. At the end of the hour, we were both still smiling, homework was done, there were no notes in the journal for teacher and he got a big 'happy face' sticker for mondays homework (5 happy faces and it's the real madrid jersey on saturday - that'll be my next post on boards - where to buy one of them;))

It's only tuesday, but honestly, already I'm even positive about tonights homework. I'm confident that even if last night isn't the routine for the rest of our lives, that I've learned alot about how my approach to the whole issue can have such positive outcomes.

So thanks again all. Boards is great:D

spurious

I very rarely give the Junior Cert. level children I teach homework, for a number of reasons.

Firstly, many of my classes are of children who struggle with basic skills and I will not send a child into their own home to experience the frustration and self-esteem destroying effect of work they cannot understand or which they do badly. For me, it's bad enough they spend much of the school day experiencing failure.

Secondly, not all of them have a quiet space where they can do homework and many have to mind younger siblings when they get home.

I've had the homework argument for years with colleagues. My primary concern is that the kids like coming to my class and that it is a class in which, where and when possible, they will experience success. Interestingly, (and while I know there are many factors which contribute to it) my groups of 'less able' kids have the highest percentage of children taking HL JC papers in the school and the highest rate of success for those who regularly attend.

"Mol an óige agus tiocfaidh siad".

mariaalice

This has been a really interesting Thread ....because of my daughters i got to see two different children with different abilities and different attitudes to school....one struggled but loved school became a nurse and has very happy memories of secondary school ....one who has the ability but is lazy doesn't like school, felt teachers picked on her.... interestingly at 17 she has the maturity to say teachers aren't picking on that they just want her to do the work....she has also started to study a lot without being asked!!

Needless to say they both had different attitudes to doing their homework/studying, going to school on time, etc.

I think how children get on in school can have a lot to do with their personality.

Chaotic_Forces

Fittle, that's great to hear.!

spurious wrote: »

I very rarely give the Junior Cert. level children I teach homework, for a number of reasons.

Firstly, many of my classes are of children who struggle with basic skills and I will not send a child into their own home to experience the frustration and self-esteem destroying effect of work they cannot understand or which they do badly. For me, it's bad enough they spend much of the school day experiencing failure.

Secondly, not all of them have a quiet space where they can do homework and many have to mind younger siblings when they get home.

I've had the homework argument for years with colleagues. My primary concern is that the kids like coming to my class and that it is a class in which, where and when possible, they will experience success. Interestingly, (and while I know there are many factors which contribute to it) my groups of 'less able' kids have the highest percentage of children taking HL JC papers in the school and the highest rate of success for those who regularly attend.

"Mol an óige agus tiocfaidh siad".

What subjects do you teach? I can just imagine that there are some things you need to give them to do at home like reading a book for English or basic essay writing skills.

implausible

spurious wrote: »

I very rarely give the Junior Cert. level children I teach homework, for a number of reasons.

Firstly, many of my classes are of children who struggle with basic skills and I will not send a child into their own home to experience the frustration and self-esteem destroying effect of work they cannot understand or which they do badly. For me, it's bad enough they spend much of the school day experiencing failure.

Secondly, not all of them have a quiet space where they can do homework and many have to mind younger siblings when they get home.

I've had the homework argument for years with colleagues. My primary concern is that the kids like coming to my class and that it is a class in which, where and when possible, they will experience success.

I could have written this post! I've been following this thread with interest and Spurious, you've just put my experience into words.

Homework, given for the sake of being seen to give homework, is pointless.

Homework, without a space and an interested adult (using the word 'parent' is dodgy in my school) to supervise is also pointless.

Spending 10 - 15 mins of a 35 class in conflict with 15 year olds over non-completion of homework is also pointless.

My approach means that I have to plan my classes carefully and my students don't necessarily like coming to my class as they have to do so much, but to counter this, I vary the teaching and learning - powerpoint, groupwork, cloze tests, games and lots and lots of repetition. However, they get far more done this way than if I was handing out homework and fighting over it. The classroom is the only quiet, supervised area most of my students ever encounter, so that's where they do most of the work.

Obviously, this approach doesn't work for every class, but for weaker and unmotivated JC students which I often (voluntarily) end up with, it does. I've often had students whose highest marks and/or only passes in the JC have been in my subject.

implausible

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

I can just imagine that there are some things you need to give them to do at home like reading a book for English or basic essay writing skills.

In an ideal world. Unfortunately, I don't teach there.

di11on

I believe the fundamental issue here is not homework itself, but the indiscriminate use of it. I believe, on the one hand, teachers should realise the value of the time homework consumes at home and make judicious use of it, giving homework where it really adds value to children's education. I believe if teachers expect families to dedicate time to homework they must dedicated time to preparing well thought through homework lists and exercises.

On the other hand, parents need to face up to their responsibility when it comes to their children's education and realise the pivotal role we have as parents supporting our children's efforts and endorsing their education, showing them through action that it's of value.

Has to work both ways. When either party is abdicating their responsibilities here, homework just isn't adding the value it can and should.

Nevyn

I have never abdicated my role as the primary teacher of my children and I have never shirked my responsibility re their education. Thinking that the majority of home work is futile does not mean I have done either of those and that I do no support the school and my children's education, I have been able to take the time to go to the school and participate in running the maths for fun and science for fun activities in the school so I frankly resent you implying I have done so.

Ayla

Thaedydal wrote: »

I have never abdicated my role as the primary teacher of my children and I have never shirked my responsibility re their education...so I frankly resent you implying I have done so.

Don't think di11on was referring to you personally, but perhaps just making a general statement (which I would agree with) that some parents - in general - don't have the initiative to help in their child's education.

I said in my first response to this thread & I'll say again, that homework can be a very useful tool in helping kids understand what was taught that day & to give them a chance to apply themselves without the teacher's aid. Yes, it can be monotonous, and yes, it can be over-subscribed by some teachers. But in the modern form of education, I think it's essential to help keep tabs on the student's progress and to highlight potential issues before they become a problem.

di11on

Thaedydal wrote: »

I have never abdicated my role as the primary teacher of my children and I have never shirked my responsibility re their education. Thinking that the majority of home work is futile does not mean I have done either of those and that I do no support the school and my children's education, I have been able to take the time to go to the school and participate in running the maths for fun and science for fun activities in the school so I frankly resent you implying I have done so.

I wasn't directing that at anyone nor was I equating thinking that homework is futile with abdicating ones role in educating our children. I was simply trying to say that If teachers dish out homework indiscriminately it places an unnecessary burden on parents and it doesn't achieve anything. Conversely, if a teacher is making judicious use of homework and it's well thought through and adds value, then I believe we have a role to play.

Just saying that "homework is futile" over simplifies the issue. I don't think you can make generalisations like that. It depends on the homework. It may certainly be that the homework your kids get is futile and doesn't add value. It doesn't mean, however, that it needs to be that way and that there isn't a place for homework in education.

spurious

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Fittle, that's great to hear.!



What subjects do you teach? I can just imagine that there are some things you need to give them to do at home like reading a book for English or basic essay writing skills.

I teach Environmental and Social Studies to Junior Cert.
If I do give them homework, it will be something like to ask their granny how many were in her class at school, or to watch a piece on the news.

Chaotic_Forces

spurious wrote: »

I teach Environmental and Social Studies to Junior Cert.
If I do give them homework, it will be something like to ask their granny how many were in her class at school, or to watch a piece on the news.

I have no idea what that subject is.

Would they take an exam in the junior cert?