School homework has 'no real benefit'

spurious

Yes. It has been a Junior Cert. exam at both Higher and Ordinary level since 1994. It is usually on the same day as Geography.

Many schools in Ireland do not like change and have not taken up the new courses and subjects.

Chaotic_Forces

spurious wrote: »

Yes. It has been a Junior Cert. exam at both Higher and Ordinary level since 1994. It is usually on the same day as Geography.

Many schools in Ireland do not like change and have not taken up the new courses and subjects.

I see; sorry if I offended you. I was never really thought anything but the basic subjects.

Well depending on the subject a bit of homework can help. But since you seem to be getting most kids to go higher level maybe little homework is the best option.

iguana

spurious wrote: »

Yes. It has been a Junior Cert. exam at both Higher and Ordinary level since 1994. It is usually on the same day as Geography.

Many schools in Ireland do not like change and have not taken up the new courses and subjects.

Sorry to go so OT but I did my JC in '94 and was told geography was a mandatory subject.

spurious

I know we're madly OT, but to answer your question, History and Geography are recommended core subjects and the Hist/Geog. element can be filled by ESS, which is more or less integrated History and Geography but taught in a child centred way with active learning as a pre-requisite. Some of the ESS course would overlap with History and Geography, though some material is exclusive to the subject.

implausible

iguana wrote: »

Sorry to go so OT but I did my JC in '94 and was told geography was a mandatory subject.

In many VEC schools, History and Geography are optional.

WiseMona

We have 4 kids. All with very different learning capabilities. One in particular (age 9) is showing as a prime example as to why homework is vital to a child's confidence. She came to live with us 6 months ago and when she did, her former school informed us that this child would 'never progress academically'.

She has never had any help or support with homework after school and she herself believed she was 'slow' because she could not keep up in school.

A few months later and a change of school and environment, things have drastically changed for this child. The first three weeks of September were pure hell (3 hours of homework/4 days per week), lots of tears, lots of trying to get homework done before she got 'home' so as to avoid the stress of it, forgetting her books/homework notebook etc.

For the last two weeks in a row, she has gotten '16 outta 16' on her spelling tests and now she KNOWS the difference between the words KNOW and (most importantly) NO.

This child's life has changed so much because (my Mum God bless her) sat with her and 'made it happen'. Now, with confidence, she will progress academically all the way to University.

Children need time, and they need time with parents (or obliging Grannys/Grandads) to review what they did in school each day. There is a reason it is called 'Home' Work.

It is our job as parents to help them be the best that they can be. In a few years, they will be out in the big bad world fending for themselves and if we do a good enough job now, they will survive and won't need us to pay their rent!

Truley

WiseMona wrote: »

A few months later and a change of school and environment, things have drastically changed for this child. The first three weeks of September were pure hell (3 hours of homework/4 days per week), lots of tears, lots of trying to get homework done before she got 'home' so as to avoid the stress of it, forgetting her books/homework notebook etc.

I'm sorry but three hours of homework, on top of five to six hours sitting in a classroom for a nine year old is far too much. I wouldn't expect that level of intellectual attention from a Ph.D. student! There is far more to life than academic achievement, and while a child may be able to tick all the right boxes and get the high grades, at that level there's no doubt it's going to be done at the expense of their physical, social or creative wellbeing.

I'm strongly in favour of parents taking an active interest in their chid's education, but this can be done, probably much better, without formal homework. You can't make parents interested in their child's learning.

metrovelvet

I think three hours for a nine year old is excessive. Kids are entitled to a life and actitivities outside of school.

All this homework just encourages a sedentary lifestyle. And then they complain about the increase in childhood obesity.:rolleyes:

astra2000

Truley wrote: »

I'm sorry but three hours of homework, on top of five to six hours sitting in a classroom for a nine year old is far too much. I wouldn't expect that level of intellectual attention from a Ph.D. student! There is far more to life than academic achievement, and while a child may be able to tick all the right boxes and get the high grades, at that level there's no doubt it's going to be done at the expense of their physical, social or creative wellbeing.

I'm strongly in favour of parents taking an active interest in their chid's education, but this can be done, probably much better, without formal homework. You can't make parents interested in their child's learning.

You have missed the point the child needed that to bring her up to speed. What was the alternative let her lag behind for a whole year?I got the impression that this was just a short term solution to help her catch up and it worked. Well done wisemona to you your mum and little girl hard work does pay off.

Ickle Magoo

WiseMona wrote: »

We have 4 kids. All with very different learning capabilities. One in particular (age 9) is showing as a prime example as to why homework is vital to a child's confidence. She came to live with us 6 months ago and when she did, her former school informed us that this child would 'never progress academically'.

She has never had any help or support with homework after school and she herself believed she was 'slow' because she could not keep up in school.

A few months later and a change of school and environment, things have drastically changed for this child. The first three weeks of September were pure hell (3 hours of homework/4 days per week), lots of tears, lots of trying to get homework done before she got 'home' so as to avoid the stress of it, forgetting her books/homework notebook etc.

For the last two weeks in a row, she has gotten '16 outta 16' on her spelling tests and now she KNOWS the difference between the words KNOW and (most importantly) NO.

This child's life has changed so much because (my Mum God bless her) sat with her and 'made it happen'. Now, with confidence, she will progress academically all the way to University.

Children need time, and they need time with parents (or obliging Grannys/Grandads) to review what they did in school each day. There is a reason it is called 'Home' Work.

It is our job as parents to help them be the best that they can be. In a few years, they will be out in the big bad world fending for themselves and if we do a good enough job now, they will survive and won't need us to pay their rent!

I think that just highlights how important interested, able and pro-active parents/guardians are, though - rather than make any kind of argument for the intrinsic benefit of homework.

If a parent/guardian does the crossword, reads the paper, plays scrabble, shows how to pay for items, helps with the shopping list, whatever, with their kids spelling and numeracy will improve exponentially from those who don't.

Sitting down and having one to one time for three hours a night with someone having previously had no help at all is clearly going to help matters - I don't think the homework should be getting the credit though - it was the time, effort and TLC put in by your wonderful mum.

metrovelvet

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I think that just highlights how important interested, able and pro-active parents/guardians are, though - rather than make any kind of argument for the intrinsic benefit of homework.

If a parent/guardian does the crossword, reads the paper, plays scrabble, shows how to pay for items, helps with the shopping list, whatever, with their kids spelling and numeracy will improve exponentially from those who don't.

Sitting down and having one to one time for three hours a night with someone having previously had no help at all is clearly going to help matters - I don't think the homework should be getting the credit though - it was the time, effort and TLC put in by your wonderful mum.

Its an awful lot to demand from some parents dont you think? I remember seeing my aunt come home from work. She was an anesthesiologist at the time and she worked very hard. When she came home, she would sit at the table at around 7 pm with my cousin on her lap, the plate on the table, the homework on the table next to it, and a fork in one hand. She had to consolodate preparing dinner, eating her dinner, and my cousin's homework all in one go. There is no way she could have given three hours to her son because he wouldnt have gotten to bed until 11 pm!

FoxT

WiseMona - you deserve a medal. It is amazing how children will respond when they get the attention & support they need & deserve. hats off to you!

I think that some homework in primary school is important - I am thinking of say 15 - 20 mins per day, , from 1st class on. It should be done with an parent/adult , but as the child gets older may be sufficient for the adult to just sign off on it & spend a few mins talking about it. I think it does a couple of things:

- Sets the child up with disciplined approach to study
- Shows that study and learning is valued, and establishes it as a value in the child's own value system
- sets up a homework habit which will stand to them in years to come.
- gives them immediate & positive feedback when they achieve something new.


Doing some homework with your child can be fun. I admit I rarely do it cos i dont get home till nearly 7pm most day & my wife has it done with him by then - but I will always ask about it & look at his latest essay/poem/art/ or whatever.

- Foxt

implausible

WiseMona wrote: »

She has never had any help or support with homework after school and she herself believed she was 'slow' because she could not keep up in school.

A few months later and a change of school and environment, things have drastically changed for this child.

This child's life has changed so much because (my Mum God bless her) sat with her and 'made it happen'. Now, with confidence, she will progress academically all the way to University.

Children need time, and they need time with parents (or obliging Grannys/Grandads) to review what they did in school each day. There is a reason it is called 'Home' Work.

Wow Mona, what a fantastic post. It just goes to show the massive difference parental involvement can make to a child. You should be applauded for your pro-active approach. Teachers are often expected to do absolutely everything and are made 100% responsible for a child's education, when the reality is that they are often dealing with 30 other students and unless a child has a specific learning difficulty, s/he will not get the one-to-one attention needed to bring him/her up to speed.

Many people will see 3 hours as excessive, but are missing the point that that was what was needed at this time to cover what was holding the child back. Time spent now will save a lot of heartache later. Parents have to be willing and interested partners in a child's education

I'll repeat what I said earlier: homework is a waste of time if there is no time (an adult present) and space (a quiet area) given to it.

Fittle

Almost 200 posts on homework....it appears whether we believe it's necessary or not, we most certainly believe it's worth discussing:)

Wisemona, that was a great post and I continue to be encouraged by what I'm reading here.

I'm on night three of my new attitude to homework. And he has 3 very large stars. And I feel like giving myself three too:D
Honestly? I know that MY attitude to homework is what has improved, as opposed to his actual work (although all the right books/copies have come home for three nites now:D).

Somebody mentioned earlier (apologies, but I can't read back over all posts just now), about some children not having the actual space to do homework. Again, I hadn't realised it before, but we did homework at the dinner table. Around the same time as I was trying to set the table for dinner etc - the table has placemats and usually a vase with flowers etc. But upstairs, there was a very cool desk, that was gathering dust with a very old computer on it. I've brought it downstairs and even though it's a bit unsightly, it's now his 'space' to do homework. I would recommend this to everyone if you have the old desk and the space!!!!

At the dinner table, we have dinner and he will paint or draw etc - but when he sits at the homework desk, it's like he re-focuses on school and gets back into the 'zone'.

Perhaps I'm overly-confident but 3 nights in a row of calm and interested learning is a HUGE success in our family after 6 weeks of stress and shouting:D

Now where to buy a cheapish Real Madrid jersey for an 8yr old:P

Stinicker

One of my most hated things about school was homework, it lead to constant rows and eventually my own dropping out of school without any qualifications. The entire eduction system in Ireland is rotten and should I ever have Children they will be educated privately.

thesimpsons

absolutely delighted to see a happy resolution for you and your son Fittle.

Fittle

Unsure that it's the 'resolution' just yet thesimpsons, but a monstrous step in the right direction...thanks:)

implausible

Stinicker wrote: »

One of my most hated things about school was homework, it lead to constant rows and eventually my own dropping out of school without any qualifications. The entire eduction system in Ireland is rotten and should I ever have Children they will be educated privately.

You dropped out of school because you had to do homework?:eek: That sounds overly simplistic and to be honest, highly unlikely. Most students drop out of school due to a combination of factors. I've a feeling that there may have been a little bit more to it than that.

Privately educated students get homework and are taught by the same teachers as you would find in a public school; their wages are all paid by the Government. The difference is that the fees go towards extra facilities and resources.

iguana

deemark wrote: »

Privately educated students get homework and are taught by the same teachers as you would find in a public school; their wages are all paid by the Government. The difference is that the fees go towards extra facilities and resources.

Not if it's Waldorf Steiner or Montessori.

implausible

iguana wrote: »

Not if it's Waldorf Steiner or Montessori.

Fair enough, I was in secondary school mode:o

Stinicker

deemark wrote: »

You dropped out of school because you had to do homework?:eek: That sounds overly simplistic and to be honest, highly unlikely. Most students drop out of school due to a combination of factors. I've a feeling that there may have been a little bit more to it than that.

Privately educated students get homework and are taught by the same teachers as you would find in a public school; their wages are all paid by the Government. The difference is that the fees go towards extra facilities and resources.

It was not just homework but a combination of factors, mainly social politics and bullying. I don't regret doing it for one moment and it gave me great freedom and control over my life. Being told what to do by a tyrant in School was not for me.

iguana

deemark wrote: »

Fair enough, I was in secondary school mode:o

There are actually two Steiner secondary schools in Clare, and another in N. Ireland, in Down. The only nearby Montessori secondary though, is in London.

implausible

iguana wrote: »

There are actually two Steiner secondary schools in Clare

My friend is involved in the one in West Clare. Never knew there was a secondary option though.:o

iguana

deemark wrote: »

My friend is involved in the one in West Clare. Never knew there was a secondary option though.:o

They could be completely separate, Clare seems to be the Steiner capital of Ireland.

Ickle Magoo

metrovelvet wrote: »

Its an awful lot to demand from some parents dont you think? I remember seeing my aunt come home from work. She was an anesthesiologist at the time and she worked very hard. When she came home, she would sit at the table at around 7 pm with my cousin on her lap, the plate on the table, the homework on the table next to it, and a fork in one hand. She had to consolodate preparing dinner, eating her dinner, and my cousin's homework all in one go. There is no way she could have given three hours to her son because he wouldnt have gotten to bed until 11 pm!

I have to say I don't remember getting anything like three hours of homework a night - and my parents both worked - my mother was primary school headteacher! - but for someone struggling to maintain their class level of numeracy/literacy then I can imagine even a relatively small amount of homework could take a very long time & I suspect the child WiseMona refers to required intensive one-one to bring her up to speed.

Some schools are very unforgiving when children don't pick up the information easily and rather than alternate teaching styles or invest in classroom assistants, they let the pupils suffer - and the sad fact is it tends to be those children without home support who fall through the net. I work with a couple of young men who are just past school leaving age who were shipped off to a school for children with special needs where they learnt nothing - just because they required more support than home could give and their school was prepared to give.

implausible

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Some schools are very unforgiving when children don't pick up the information easily and rather than alternate teaching styles or invest in classroom assistants, they let the pupils suffer

Some teachers are fantastic at alternating styles and making learning interesting to all types of learner. However, many are under serious pressure just to get the curriculum taught to the 32 students in front of them. The Department at the moment is far more concerned with policies than the implementation of them and the results rather than the means. They want forms filled in and boxes ticked and have no ruler to measure a happy child who likes school and is progressing well for his/her ability level.

The nearest we have in this country to teaching assistants are SNAs and some schools make brilliant use of them as classroom assistants, but they are being taken away from students at the moment, and by extension, from schools. This is unlikely to change and will probably get worse, given our present financial circumstances.

Unfortunately, you will always have kids who can't keep up, who find certain subjects more difficult than others and who spend far too long at their homework. The teacher can't base all of the kids' homework on the weakest student's ability to do it. This is where extra help should come in and when the school can't or won't provide it in the form or resource or homework clubs, the parent (who should already be involved) has to step in.

The teacher, parent and child are partners in education. All need to be engaged and involved for the child to progress.

Ickle Magoo

deemark wrote: »

The teacher can't base all of the kids' homework on the weakest student's ability to do it.

Well this is the point isn't it - when the majority of children actually require parental tutoring for literally hours every evening, to do well in school then something is seriously lacking within the educational system at large.

Chaotic_Forces

deemark wrote: »

Some teachers are fantastic at alternating styles and making learning interesting to all types of learner. However, many are under serious pressure just to get the curriculum taught to the 32 students in front of them. The Department at the moment is far more concerned with policies than the implementation of them and the results rather than the means. They want forms filled in and boxes ticked and have no ruler to measure a happy child who likes school and is progressing well for his/her ability level.

The nearest we have in this country to teaching assistants are SNAs and some schools make brilliant use of them as classroom assistants, but they are being taken away from students at the moment, and by extension, from schools. This is unlikely to change and will probably get worse, given our present financial circumstances.

Unfortunately, you will always have kids who can't keep up, who find certain subjects more difficult than others and who spend far too long at their homework. The teacher can't base all of the kids' homework on the weakest student's ability to do it. This is where extra help should come in and when the school can't or won't provide it in the form or resource or homework clubs, the parent (who should already be involved) has to step in.

The teacher, parent and child are partners in education. All need to be engaged and involved for the child to progress.

In primary school I think the part of kids "keeping up" is a joke. Unless they have a medical condition.

Frankly I'd say it's laziness on the parent's part.

A classroom helper is a great idea; let's face it: a lot of unemployed people (though it is a different subject entirely) could help in classes if they give a damn. I LOVED showing younger students how to do certain questions of how to best tackle a problem; it was why I learned things.
Hell; I'm barely 22 and never took a college class but I easily could teach maths to primary school studens or to students taking ordinary math for the junior cert. I was very good at math because I had a good teacher.

But I think the point is way off topic here.

It's not about homework in general; some people do well with it; some don't.

In primary school it's essentially a necessity. After that it's on a student to student basis.

To be blunt I was very surprised when I was in sixth class at the "tests" we took. It was generally the final year ones; we had one for English and one for Maths. It wasn't made by the school it was an "official" test...

Anyway I got in something like the top 3 of my class. To which I was shocked; I thought I never put in much effort at all. turns out the reason I did so well was because (for about 2-3 weeks, as mentioned earlier I think) I was tossed out of class and one of the teachers tried to get me to "catch up" on some things. I was about 5 months ahead of everyone else.


Now I know for a fact it does vary on teaching ability but she (The lady that tried to catch me up) was a teacher for about a year at most. She did her damn best and before I knew it, I was getting an A on those damn tests; that even my 5th class teacher (who was someone that was very appealing with 1 on 1 teaching methods) couldn't do. My sixth class teacher was a tyrant. Within the space of two weeks I was several months ahead of other students.


It just goes to show that if one teacher on one student can boost the ability by a few months; one teacher for several students for a full year should at least manage Bs all around, if they do try.

But liike I said, medical conditions do have a part; as does homelife but let's face it; teachers should know this and be able to adapt.

Fittle

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

In primary school I think the part of kids "keeping up" is a joke. Unless they have a medical condition.

Frankly I'd say it's laziness on the parent's part..

Disagree 100%.

My son is one of those kids who doesn't 'keep up' with his peers and has as much, if not more support from me at home, as his peers when it comes to school work.

He was 4yr and 5months on his first day in primary school. In hindsight, he was far too young, is the youngest in a class where the majority have turned 9 during this summer (he will be 9 next May).

I realised my mistake in sending him to school too young about 6 weeks into senior infants. I approached his principal and his teacher about keeping him back at that point (when I assumed it would have the least affect on him, both emotionally and academically). At that time, he was attending two 'resource' teachers for english and maths (one-to-one).

This is almost a direct quote from the principal -
"...but its not the policy of this school to keep children back, because it's children like your child who keep our resource teachers employed by the Dept of Ed...":rolleyes:

At the time, I looked at two other schools who might take him back into junior infants and both refused me, on similar grounds!! And yet, having discussed this with others since that time, it appears this isn't the norm in all schools - so perhaps its just the norm in all schools in my catchment area

Truley

deemark wrote: »

My friend is involved in the one in West Clare. Never knew there was a secondary option though.:o

Yep there are two The Alfa Project, and then Raheen Wood goes up to second or third year I think.