School homework has 'no real benefit'

cynder

I may be way off the mark but i recon homework teaches kids to do things that they don't like doing,

Mainly it teaches them responsibility - they are responsible to hand their homework in on time and completed. Its a stepping stone for when they get out into the real world and have to work to earn a living. That's why its called homeWORK.

gbee

Thaedydal wrote: »

The majority of stress and strife around school in this house over the last 6 years has been homework. .

Well, I butt-headed every principal for my children and refused to allow them to do what I thought was excessive homework and refused to allow my children to do those thousands of lines.

My own school-days ended circa 1972 and homework was certainly the cause of the most stress, resentment, hatred and physical punishment that I was certainly not going to allow my own children to suffer from.

My youngest has left school just four years ago.

Schools and teachers think far too much of themselves IMO, in general. If your child is stressed, it's up to you, the parent to sort it out.

Chaotic_Forces

Fittle wrote: »

Disagree 100%.

My son is one of those kids who doesn't 'keep up' with his peers and has as much, if not more support from me at home, as his peers when it comes to school work.

He was 4yr and 5months on his first day in primary school. In hindsight, he was far too young, is the youngest in a class where the majority have turned 9 during this summer (he will be 9 next May).

I realised my mistake in sending him to school too young about 6 weeks into senior infants. I approached his principal and his teacher about keeping him back at that point (when I assumed it would have the least affect on him, both emotionally and academically). At that time, he was attending two 'resource' teachers for english and maths (one-to-one).

This is almost a direct quote from the principal -
"...but its not the policy of this school to keep children back, because it's children like your child who keep our resource teachers employed by the Dept of Ed...":rolleyes:

At the time, I looked at two other schools who might take him back into junior infants and both refused me, on similar grounds!! And yet, having discussed this with others since that time, it appears this isn't the norm in all schools - so perhaps its just the norm in all schools in my catchment area

Fittle, your son would be exempt. He was too young. Imagine a bunch of ten year old kids who are in 4th class and they all do great in class at the start. When they get given homework and some can't keep up; that tells me they're fine in school (the teacher is doing a good job and they have to work) but at home it's either laziness or else lack of help from parents.

Someone being a bit young should exempt them from the standards. And I think it was a good idea that you wanted to get you son kept back since it would be better in the long run; though the school seems a bit of a joke since they care more about their own than the kids.:rolleyes:

Guest1986

Maybe we should give parents homework on how to be authoritative with their children. Homework obviously trains you to get used to working on your own time towards something images of it being forced upon you under the classroom's confined conditions

Chaotic_Forces

grindelwald wrote: »

I may be way off the mark but i recon homework teaches kids to do things that they don't like doing,

Mainly it teaches them responsibility - they are responsible to hand their homework in on time and completed. Its a stepping stone for when they get out into the real world and have to work to earn a living. That's why its called homeWORK.

No, just no. Primary school; sure I can see that point and I agree.

Seconday school (particulary anyone who goes straight from 3rd to 5th) has far too much to do already. Several hours of homework PLUS... SIX hours of studying at least per day (was what I was told) is expected of us. So a minimum of six hours of studying and most kids are too tired then.

School for about six hours plus a few hours homework and studying is slave labour.
The average working day usually 8 hours a day and about 40ish hours per week.

Say you start school at 9am and finish at 3:30 pm that's a total of 6.5 hours already.
Add in homework and you've got a wonderful 8 hours (generally in 5th year there was something that would take me a long time to write out; essays or experiments for chem/biology).

THEN they expect you to study on top of that. Whereas if you were working 9-5 and then told "hey stay for another few hours just because I want it to look like I'm trying to help but I'm not going to check it".

Or my personal favourite: 3 essays; an experiment all in two days plus various other little subjects: the teacher takes about 3-5 days just to correct some essays.

Their excuse is "oh well I have too much to correct from other classes".
SO DO THE STUDENTS! That's why homework is a horrible idea in secondary schools, at least in my opinion.

iguana

grindelwald wrote: »

I may be way off the mark but i recon homework teaches kids to do things that they don't like doing,

Mainly it teaches them responsibility - they are responsible to hand their homework in on time and completed. Its a stepping stone for when they get out into the real world and have to work to earn a living. That's why its called homeWORK.

But imagine instead they learned to do something they were passionate about, something they are happy to put the hours into because they just damn love it. And then they took that attitude into their career, finding a path they love and actually enjoying their work as part of a well balanced life. Why would you want to teach your children that life is about putting their nose to the grindstone?

cynder

iguana wrote: »

But imagine instead they learned to do something they were passionate about, something they are happy to put the hours into because they just damn love it. And then they took that attitude into their career, finding a path they love and actually enjoying their work as part of a well balanced life. Why would you want to teach your children that life is about putting their nose to the grindstone?

It is and it isn't, depends on the persons situation as an adult and what line of work they go into. I say there are plenty of sales assistants out there that would rather be doctors or solicitors or managers or vets, but they keep working as a sales assistant, some progress others remain sales assistants for years and years, but that's life. (I'm just using sales assistants as an example i have nothing against them and was one myself) I must also say that even though they might get a good job (as listed above)they still might be required to work to the grindstone.
Ive heard many sales assistants say "its a job" they would rather that then be on the dole.

Are you telling me that you would rather your kid be on the dole than putting their nose to the grindstone because they could not pursue their chosen career?

Kids have got to learn to take good with the bad, life isn't about always getting your own way. Its how you deal with life when you have to do things you don't like doing, i think its a good stepping stone in to adult life. Its great when a child knows what they want and goes for it and their parents are able to afford to give them that chance. They have also got to learn to stand on their own two feet and their parents not bail them out at their beck 'n' call.

Also homework keeps the kids off the street corners. * I would also say that sometimes too much homework is given out.

My brother had a hard time with homework (my mom did most of it for him with him writing and her giving him the answers and now we recon he had/has adhd (he had all the typical signs) as does my 3 nearly 4 year old. I was never helped with homework i flew through it.

cynder

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

School for about six hours plus a few hours homework and studying is slave labour.
The average working day usually 8 hours a day and about 40ish hours per week.

.

Its not as if they have anything better to do, I wouldnt really call it slave labour as the schools get nothing out of it, the kids themselves will take from it what they wish. They put the effort in or they give up.

Chaotic_Forces

grindelwald wrote: »

Its not as if they have anything better to do, I wouldnt really call it slave labour as the schools get nothing out of it, the kids themselves will take from it what they wish. They put the effort in or they give up.

If's that the case then shouldn't teachers need work the same amount of time every day?

implausible

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

I think it was a good idea that you wanted to get you son kept back since it would be better in the long run; though the school seems a bit of a joke since they care more about their own than the kids.:rolleyes:

I need to throw in a bit of information here - the Department hates students repeating years. Why? Because they have to pay a capitation grant twice for the same student, so primary schools are actively discouraged from allowing students to stay back a year and have to account for every student who does. Most schools have "students will only be kept back in exceptional circumstances" written into their policies.

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Seconday school (particulary anyone who goes straight from 3rd to 5th) has far too much to do already. Several hours of homework PLUS... SIX hours of studying at least per day (was what I was told) is expected of us. So a minimum of six hours of studying and most kids are too tired then.

Or my personal favourite: 3 essays; an experiment all in two days plus various other little subjects: the teacher takes about 3-5 days just to correct some essays.Their excuse is "oh well I have too much to correct from other classes".SO DO THE STUDENTS! That's why homework is a horrible idea in secondary schools, at least in my opinion.

Em, six hours is OTT and I suspect that the school only specified this to put the wind up students that secondary school is serious and requires a lot more work than primary.

In secondary school, the Irish teacher, for example, is unlikely to know what the Science teacher is doing, so it's inevitable that some days students are going to get hit with a lot of homework. (Mind you, I would never give a student only one night to do an essay because of this and because I want it done properly).

As for correcting work, LC HL English essays can be 5 pages long. Multiply that by 30 and I'm sure you can see the problem. The student wrote 3 pages, the teacher may have to mark 90 pages. As a parent, surely, you'd prefer it to be marked properly?

Look, at the end of the day, a student is not doing homework or studying for the teacher; s/he should be doing it for her or himself. If this work is regarded as a battle between school and child, then that's all it will ever be and the student will derive no benefit from it. However, if a parent takes the mature and long-term view that any extra work at home now will be to the student's benefit in the future, then the student will do it (voluntarily or not), knowing there is a point to it. Ultimately, it's the student who benefits not the school.

I'd agree with a lot of what Grindelwald says in that life will constantly require you to do things that you don't want to do, but that are to your benefit. Remember that it's kids you're dealing with here and any parent knows that they don't always know what's good for them and are often incapable of taking the long view.

Chaotic_Forces

deemark wrote: »

I need to throw in a bit of information here - the Department hates students repeating years. Why? Because they have to pay a capitation grant twice for the same student, so primary schools are actively discouraged from allowing students to stay back a year and have to account for every student who does. Most schools have "students will only be kept back in exceptional circumstances" written into their policies.



Em, six hours is OTT and I suspect that the school only specified this to put the wind up students that secondary school is serious and requires a lot more work than primary.

In secondary school, the Irish teacher, for example, is unlikely to know what the Science teacher is doing, so it's inevitable that some days students are going to get hit with a lot of homework. (Mind you, I would never give a student only one night to do an essay because of this and because I want it done properly).

As for correcting work, LC HL English essays can be 5 pages long. Multiply that by 30 and I'm sure you can see the problem. The student wrote 3 pages, the teacher may have to mark 90 pages. As a parent, surely, you'd prefer it to be marked properly?

Look, at the end of the day, a student is not doing homework or studying for the teacher; s/he should be doing it for her or himself. If this work is regarded as a battle between school and child, then that's all it will ever be and the student will derive no benefit from it. However, if a parent takes the mature and long-term view that any extra work at home now will be to the student's benefit in the future, then the student will do it (voluntarily or not), knowing there is a point to it. Ultimately, it's the student who benefits not the school.

I'd agree with a lot of what Grindelwald says in that life will constantly require you to do things that you don't want to do, but that are to your benefit. Remember that it's kids you're dealing with here and any parent knows that they don't always know what's good for them and are often incapable of taking the long view.

But the problem is that most times it can take us students far longer to do it than it would take a teacher to correct it. Plus let's take into the fact that reading 120 pages (30 kids, 4 pages each) is far easier than writing 4 pages, doing research and so on. PLUS instead of knowing what we should concentrate on; teachers already know. Teachers have it easy and feel that splashing out homework is a good idea.
In a good school teachers should be able to ask the others "oh what did you give X class today; I was thinking of two essays for next week". Not "wel I don't care if you other homework; do mine instead".

And yes... six hours at least was what we were told to. I tried to use logic and reasoning and got in trouble.

iguana

grindelwald wrote: »

I say there are plenty of sales assistants out there that would rather be doctors or solicitors or managers or vets, but they keep working as a sales assistant, some progress others remain sales assistants for years and years, but that's life. (I'm just using sales assistants as an example i have nothing against them and was one myself) I must also say that even though they might get a good job (as listed above)they still might be required to work to the grindstone.

And that's exactly the attitude that the current school system fosters. Plenty of sales assistants enjoy their jobs (and a lot more would if so many customers didn't treat them like dirt). It's actually possible to find some pleasure in most jobs as long as the payoff feels worth it. I don't enjoy cleaning the bathroom but I do enjoy having a clean bathroom therefore I can clean the bathroom with out it feeling like my nose is to the grindstone. The trick is to find the payoff that allows you to find satisfaction in what you do, whether it's being an emergency doctor or a binman. Learning to do schoolwork because you find satisfaction in it, because you see the point, is so much more important than learning that in life you just have to do stuff that makes you feel like crap because someone says so. (And there'd also be a lot less customers making sales assistants feel like dirt too in a world where people learned to fin satisfaction wherever the could, instead of treating most of life as an endurance test.)

As for children have nothing better to do! Are you for real????? Do you have the slightest clue how important play, sports, socialisation, bike riding, reading for pleasure, listening to or playing music is for children? They need far, far more of that than they do of schoolwork. They also need to be learning an awful lot of non-academic skills which too many people even slightly younger than me have little clue about. Cooking, basic housework, gardening, DIY, taking care of pets and other animals and money management. There is a thread in AF at the moment where a grown adult is extremely proud that he has learned to "cook" a frozen pizza. And do you think that the economy would be in the state it currently is if people were more aware of personal finance? Too much homework is a very, very bad thing for the wellbeing of children, families and ultimately society as a whole.

metrovelvet

iguana wrote: »

And that's exactly the attitude that the current school system fosters. Plenty of sales assistants enjoy their jobs (and a lot more would if so many customers didn't treat them like dirt). It's actually possible to find some pleasure in most jobs as long as the payoff feels worth it. I don't enjoy cleaning the bathroom but I do enjoy having a clean bathroom therefore I can clean the bathroom with out it feeling like my nose is to the grindstone. The trick is to find the payoff that allows you to find satisfaction in what you do, whether it's being an emergency doctor or a binman. Learning to do schoolwork because you find satisfaction in it, because you see the point, is so much more important than learning that in life you just have to do stuff that makes you feel like crap because someone says so. (And there'd also be a lot less customers making sales assistants feel like dirt too in a world where people learned to fin satisfaction wherever the could, instead of treating most of life as an endurance test.)

As for children have nothing better to do! Are you for real????? Do you have the slightest clue how important play, sports, socialisation, bike riding, reading for pleasure, listening to or playing music is for children? They need far, far more of that than they do of schoolwork. They also need to be learning an awful lot of non-academic skills which too many people even slightly younger than me have little clue about. Cooking, basic housework, gardening, DIY, taking care of pets and other animals and money management. There is a thread in AF at the moment where a grown adult is extremely proud that he has learned to "cook" a frozen pizza. And do you think that the economy would be in the state it currently is if people were more aware of personal finance? Too much homework is a very, very bad thing for the wellbeing of children, families and ultimately society as a whole.

I would like to put you in charge of education.

That reminds me. In fifth grade we had to study the stock market. We had to buy the newspaper everyday and pick a stock and follow it. We had to calculate share value and we had to graph it. WE learned about interest, compound interest, graphing, presentation, and consumerism. We were given an imaginary 10k to buy shares. We learned to balance budgets, chequebooks etc.

No home ec though. shrug. I think it was considered passe when I was growing up because we are latch key kids who learned these things anyway.

Nevyn

Two days a week now my son has homework club/study hall, it's free and every child in the school can attend if they wish, runs from 4 to 5:30 and he manages to get all his work done in 45 mins has a 15 min break and then 30 mins of a sports activity.

At home the work can take him easily 90mins, the days where there is study club on are a joy compared to where it's not on.

cynder

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

If's that the case then shouldn't teachers need work the same amount of time every day?

Havent they already been to school and done that. Now its their time to teach.

cynder

iguana wrote: »

As for children have nothing better to do! Are you for real????? Do you have the slightest clue how important play, sports, socialisation, bike riding, reading for pleasure, listening to or playing music is for children? They need far, far more of that than they do of schoolwork. They also need to be learning an awful lot of non-academic skills which too many people even slightly younger than me have little clue about. Cooking, basic housework, gardening, DIY, taking care of pets and other animals and money management. There is a thread in AF at the moment where a grown adult is extremely proud that he has learned to "cook" a frozen pizza. And do you think that the economy would be in the state it currently is if people were more aware of personal finance? Too much homework is a very, very bad thing for the wellbeing of children, families and ultimately society as a whole.

Yep i am for real, there is plenty of time after/before homework to do all that, Horse riding, reading, playing music, riding bikes(taking drugs, drinking, underage sex, legal sex, boyfriends/girlfriends, hanging out in the streets, stealing, joy riding) cooking ( my just turned 11 year old can cook, i taught her. To name a few Spag bol, Sunday roast, pizza, chicken curry, chips. Are the parents to lazy to teach their kids how to cook? that should not be left up to the school). As for basic house work, where the hell are the parents? I was taking car engines apart at 13 and im a girl! I used drills and grinders, hovers and bleach. I even melted lead for fishing weights. I cant believe parents are not teaching kids basic skills. Why the hell are they leaving it up to the school?

Dont forget we were all kids once.

If a child wants learn they will knuckle down and learn, if they don't they wont. You get out of it what you put in. If you dont put in the effort then its down hill.

implausible

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

But the problem is that most times it can take us students far longer to do it than it would take a teacher to correct it. Plus let's take into the fact that reading 120 pages (30 kids, 4 pages each) is far easier than writing 4 pages, doing research and so on.

In a good school teachers should be able to ask the others "oh what did you give X class today; I was thinking of two essays for next week".

Well of course it takes longer to write it than mark it, that's a pointless argument!

Ah now, this wouldn't work in a school with 5 teachers, never mind the average secondary school:rolleyes:

implausible

grindelwald wrote: »

I cant believe parents are not teaching kids basic skills. Why the hell are they leaving it up to the school?

If a child wants learn they will knuckle down and learn, if they don't they wont. You get out of it what you put in. If you dont put in the effort then its down hill.

This is a pet peeve of mine, various commentators in the media suggesting that everything from driving to first aid to personal hygiene to sex education be part of the curriculum. It's because of this attitude that children now do 11 subjects in Junior Cert and have less time to spend on core subjects. What happened to parents taking responsibility for the non-academic part of their children's education? You don't drop them off at the school gate aged five, pick them up again at eighteen and expect them to be well-rounded responsible citizens without any parental input.

(This isn't aimed at anyone by the way, just a rant:o)

It's all very well to say that "if a child wants to learn they will knuckle down and learn", but they have to be given a push, for the first few years anyway.

Charlie.

grindelwald wrote: »

(taking drugs, drinking, underage sex, legal sex, boyfriends/girlfriends, hanging out in the streets, stealing, joy riding)

And you seriously think having homework will deter a child from doing these things?

grindelwald wrote: »

If a child wants learn they will knuckle down and learn, if they don't they wont. You get out of it what you put in. If you dont put in the effort then its down hill.

Yeah exactly! But just because homework is completed doesn't mean the child has learned anything from it! Thinking back to my school, sometimes not even half the class would have done their homework in some subjects the night before...the rest would copy it on the way bus to school the next morning. Is there any learning/benefit to the child in that case...I think not!

I agree a small bit of homework is necessary but it is the type of homework that many children get that I disagree with. The curriculum talks about active learning and environmental learning....in my opinion 'homework' that allows the child freedom to work on something they have an interest in and can get creative with would be far more beneficial than answering 10 questions on an english comprehension.

Charlie.

deemark wrote: »

It's all very well to say that "if a child wants to learn they will knuckle down and learn", but they have to be given a push, for the first few years anyway.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'given a push' but I think in the first few years the aim should be to instill motivation and a love of learning in the child through building on their natural curiosity. I don't think homework in the way most of us know today it is the way to do this.

iguana

grindelwald wrote: »

I cant believe parents are not teaching kids basic skills. Why the hell are they leaving it up to the school?

But a lot of time parents don't have the time for this partially because of homework. If both parents work they have a limited amount of time to spend with their children in the evenings. If two hours are taken up with homework there isn't time to cook together. If they are in a scenario which involves daily commutes and early starts finding the time to just do the homework together may even be beyond their capabilities.

I definitely don't think any of that is the school's job, I think parents should be their children's primary educators. But and awful lot of people have limited time as a family and it should be up to the parents to decide how much of that time together should be spent on academic pursuits and how much on play and other learning.

implausible

Charlie. wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by 'given a push' but I think in the first few years the aim should be to instill motivation and a love of learning in the child through building on their natural curiosity. I don't think homework in the way most of us know today it is the way to do this.

I meant 'given a push' in the way that children will not necessarily do what they should do all by themselves. Does every parent here have kids who self-weaned, toilet-trained themselves, voluntarily go to bed and get up at a sensible time, learn off history dates for the hell of it and who clean their room because they can clearly see the benefits of a clean and organised resting space?

Of course, a child's natural curiosity should be nurtured and s/he love learning, but there are times when education, like life, is a hard slog. I love English but that doesn't mean that as a teenager, the prospect of a 5 page essay on Hamlet filled me with tingling anticipation, but I had to do it. Learning off times-tables was a giant pain in the ass, which I hated at the time, but which I later saw and still see the benefit of.

metrovelvet

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Well this is the point isn't it - when the majority of children actually require parental tutoring for literally hours every evening, to do well in school then something is seriously lacking within the educational system at large.

School is treated like conveyor belt fast food. McEducation [not an ethnic slur btw}

Ickle Magoo

It is - large class sizes, limited resources, boring curriculum, unnecessary subjects, lecternal instruction - the whole system needs dragged into the 21st century.

metrovelvet wrote: »

[not an ethnic slur btw}

:pac: Very good.

Nevyn

The problem with sex ed being taught by parents is a lot of them don't have the knowledge to pass on or the skills to do it.

cynder

Thaedydal wrote: »

The problem with sex ed being taught by parents is a lot of them don't have the knowledge to pass on or the skills to do it.

Lucky you put that in the parenting forum, if that was in after hours I could only imagine what responses it would get.

Nevyn

grindelwald wrote: »

Lucky you put that in the parenting forum, if that was in after hours I could only imagine what responses it would get.

???

It is true, there is more to sex and sexuality education then what is to be found in a jr cert science book and there is a lot of things not cover by the sphe course in secondary school and it's left to the parents and many do not feel able to impart the info their kids need due to lack of knowledge and lack of skills.

cynder

Thaedydal wrote: »

???

.

Yep is true, Agree with you there.




*I was looking at it from a different view (parents not knowing about sex or have any skills regarding sex) Not sex ed.

implausible

Thaedydal wrote: »

It is true, there is more to sex and sexuality education then what is to be found in a jr cert science book and there is a lot of things not cover by the sphe course in secondary school and it's left to the parents and many do not feel able to impart the info their kids need due to lack of knowledge and lack of skills.

I understand that parents may feel inadequate and not fully informed when imparting sex education to students, but I really don't agree that this job should be outsourced to the schools. Some parents use this as an excuse to abdicate their responsibilities and not do it at all, "sure they'll learn about it in school" and other parents hugely overestimate what the students learn in school. How long will it be until some parent of a pregnant teenager sues a school?

I have the same issue with Religion, I feel that the church or parent should be the primary educator. I don't think that schools should merely be centres of academic learning, but at second level, extra subjects like CSPE, SPHE (should be one subject in my opinion) and Religion eat into time that is needed for the core subjects. If a teacher had one extra class of Maths (for example) per week, there would be less homework required.

Nevyn

I disagree on them being combined.
Efforts were made by the crisses pregnacy agency to education and inform parents, there are booklets, pdf and dvd all free for any parent who wants them but most do not know about them as the majority of schools due to the ethos of the schools will not have anything to do the programs and will no allow it to be distributed through the schools.