As a cyclist, do you pay motor tax?

serendip

Every now and then a flame war erupts over cyclists' use of the roads and the fact that bicycles are not liable for motor tax.

So, do cyclists really not pay motor tax?

murph226

Due to the lack of pollution from cyclists they shouldnt ever be taxed!

-Chris-

As a company car driver for the last ten years I'm a motorist who hasn't personally paid for motor tax.

I'm not sure about the point of the thread or the question. Does whether you pay for motor tax make you a first-class or second-class citizen on the roads?

Is there such a distinction?

Captain Havoc

Where's TimAllen when you need him?

Junior

On 2 Vehicles, and come the new year it might be a third.

ROK ON

In the past year I have paid Motor Tax, VAT, Income Tax, Social Insurance, CGT, Witholding tax, DIRT. There maybe taxes that I have unknowingly paid.

I need to get offshore, or see a tax consultant.
We all pay too much tax, and more is on the way.:mad:

Orion

We've one car. She uses it and it's taxed. I use public transport on a daily basis. I fail to see the point though. It's irrelevant whether or not cyclists pay tax on a car. I just don't argue with idiots who use that as an argument.

mathepac

-Chris- wrote: »

... I'm not sure about the point of the thread or the question. ...

+1 Can I vote for the 4th option "This is the most inane, pointless survey ever created on any web-site anywhere"?

serendip

-Chris- wrote: »

Is there such a distinction?

Well, I don't think there's a distinction. But I have seen many comments complaining about cyclists and citing the fact that they don't pay "road tax". I am a cyclist, but I also pay motor tax (actually on two vehicles), so these comments rile me. The purpose of the poll is just to gauge (unscientifically) whether the charge that cyclists don't pay motor tax is on balance largely true or largely false.

BostonB

I think the point that hes trying to make is that the majority of cyclists do pay motor tax. Because most of them own a car (or cars) aswell as a bicycle. In my office, everyone who cycles also has a car.

So the usual line trotted out against cyclists is they don't pay motor tax. Is most likely completely bogus.

2 stroke

I regularly use 5 vehicles, I pay motortax on 3. I also use public transport where appropriate.

rua327

Oh Christ. If you cycle you dont pay tax, if you drive you generally do. NEXT THREAD.:rolleyes:

-Chris-

serendip wrote: »

Well, I don't think there's a distinction. But I have seen many comments complaining about cyclists and citing the fact that they don't pay "road tax". I am a cyclist, but I also pay motor tax (actually on two vehicles), so these comments rile me. The purpose of the poll is just to gauge (unscientifically) whether the charge that cyclists don't pay motor tax is on balance largely true or largely false.

BostonB wrote: »

I think the point that hes trying to make is that the majority of cyclists do pay motor tax. Because most of them own a car (or cars) aswell as a bicycle. In my office, everyone who cycles also has a car.

So the usual line trotted out against cyclists is they don't pay motor tax. Is most likely completely bogus.

But who cares if it's bogus or not, cyclists aren't liable for motor tax.

Worry about people driving cars without valid motor tax (or insurance), if someone said "you're a cyclist, you don't pay motor tax, you don't deserve to be on the road" I wouldn't even dignify it with a response. Why would I care about what someone that idiotic thought about me?

serendip

rua327 wrote: »

If you cycle you dont pay tax, ...

Really? I know many people who cycle and pay tax (motor tax, that is).

tomasrojo

Since I don't own a vehicle with a motor I don't and can't pay motor tax.

I do drive cars occasionally. I leave insurance, tax, etc. to the car-hire company.

thebouldwhacker

serendip wrote: »

I have seen many comments complaining about cyclists and citing the fact that they don't pay "road tax" The purpose of the poll is just to gauge (unscientifically) whether the charge that cyclists don't pay motor tax is on balance largely true or largely false.

Hi Serendip, I understand the basis of your question but when people make such an argument I find it childish and doesn't deserve to be entertained as an argument. Should the argument exist that people shouldn't be allowed walk on the road if they dont pay tax? same point..... for this reason I'm afraid I wont be polling

ednwireland

does the fact of putting my bike on the roofrack triple the value of my car count for anything ?

Junior wrote: »

On 2 Vehicles, and come the new year it might be a third.

breeding are they ?

zzzzzzzz

Junior wrote: »

On 2 Vehicles, and come the new year it might be a third.

finally getting that monster truck, eh?

victorcarrera

serendip wrote: »

Every now and then a flame war erupts over cyclists' use of the roads and the fact that bicycles are not liable for motor tax.

So, do cyclists really not pay motor tax?

Pedal cycle tax = 0
1.4 Ltr motor tax = 104 Euro
2.0 Ltr motor tax = 615 Euro
Consider the relative difference in tax among the above road users.
I imagine persons with a modicum of intelligence or even primary school maths would wonder why there are no flame wars between the two different car classes.

Maybe it is more racsism than envy.
IMO the flame war only exists in the minds of the urban "bear in a biscuit tin" type who while stuck in traffic percieves commuting cyclists as compulsive queue hoppers.

The stupid mess that is Motor Tax in Ireland was of course created by the Irish Government.
It is called Motor Tax although it is collected by the Local Authorities for the upkeep of the road network and more recently increased to include a pro rata carbon tax. Cyclists don't damage roads and if anything reduce carbon emisions, so why tax them.

This type of tax gives no consideration to those car owners who use bicycles regularly. Why tax these people twice if they are spending less
time in traffic, taking up less space on the road, and reducing CO2 emissions not only by themselves but of other road users by the fact that they are leaving their cars at home they are reducing traffic congestion and hence exhaust emissions of other users.

Plastik

I am a cyclist. I am a motorist. I practice 3 on 2 off.

Junior

aidan.offbeat wrote: »

finally getting that monster truck, eh?

Hunting an evo 6 Tommi Makkinen or a tuned evo 7 to be honest. All dependant on contract renewal for the job in February.

ednwireland wrote: »

does the fact of putting my bike on the roofrack triple the value of my car count for anything ?



breeding are they ?

I wish.

Stark

Have a car and pay motor tax but more importantly I pay income tax and other taxes that go into the general taxation pool from which roads are funded.

niceonetom

It's been said more tactfully in this thread but I think it deserves to be hammered home: it's a bullshít question. The answer is irrelevant. Moot. A great stinking red herring.

When a motorist asks the question above it's not a question at all - it's a thinly masked declaration that rights must be bought and cyclists, doncha know, haven't paid up. It's not a request for information, it's a way of saying STFU and GTF out of my way.

Saying "Ah, dear motorist, but I do pay motor tax on etc. etc." just gives the impression that this declaration is true. It's not. So don't answer the question. All that does is validate the hidden assumption.

I don't need to own an engine to justify my use of the road. One thing has nothing to do with the other.

ThisRegard

Nice one niceonetom, doesn't matter if you pay motor tax on 0 or 100 cars, your entitlement to the road is the same, not that motor tax pays for roads.

Zorba

Last motorist that said to me "u don't pay any road tax" i pointed out that i drive a 2ltr car which costs me over €600 a yr to tax, whereas they were only driving a 1.4 so going by their logic i had more right to be on the road than they did, for some reason they didn't hang around to continue the debate

At then end of the day it's a moronic argument we all have an equal rights to use the roads.

thebouldwhacker

Perhaps they should be renamed car trax, then something could be done about the pesky bicyclers, walkers, joggers and other non motorists that get in my way........

DirkVoodoo

I cycle everywhere because I like it and it's quick. I pay tax on a car and drive plenty of others, the most recent being a rather tasty spin in a Porsche 944 Turbo, probably the closest I have come to repeating the joys of cycling on the road. Most of the time I look at people stuck in traffic and I wonder "why?". I love driving, but traffic does my head in and for commuting around town the bike is the clear winner. I'm not some eco-hippy or anything, I just have more fun on a bike.

greenrocket

dont understand the revelance of the question. do you think cyclists should pay a tax for cycling a bike?

Idleater

In answer to the question asked, I pay motor tax on 2 bikes and a (nice newish euro rules compliant) car.
Having said that, the only person to ever ask me about it was a taxi driver who I happened to pull alongside two days later when I was on my motorbike, and I asked him to nicely move aside so I could filter past him.
The joys of working an easy route I suppose.

Lumen

I don't think it's so much of a rights issue, more a "pay your share" issue.

The easy solution is to abolish motor tax and VRT. Then everyone pays the same rate of VAT on their chosen mode of transport, and road maintenance comes out of general taxation.

While bicycles wear the roads less than cars, both of those wear the roads much less than freight, and we all use freight one way of the other.

-Chris-

But just to throw a spanner in the "logic" of the argument further...


In 2008 there was a change in motor taxation from engine size to CO2 emissions.

I'm going to take an Audi A4 2.0TDi as an example:
- If your A4 2.0TDi is registered in 2007 or before, your annual motor tax is €614
- If your A4 2.0TDi was registered in 2008 and built before week 22, you'll be paying €302 pa
- Audi made an improvement in CO2 emissions in this car in week 22, so if your car was built after that then you'll be paying €156 pa
- For model year 2010 they then released a version of this car that qualifies for €104 pa motor tax

There is the potential that you'll see two "identical" Audi A4 2.0TDis, both registered on the same day in May 2008 and one driver pays €302 while the other pays €156.


There's also the issue of VRT - there was a change in the VRT rules for any cars first registered in Ireland after 1 July 2008.
Someone who bought a new A4 2.0TDi on 31/06/08 probably paid €10k+ in VRT, whereas someone who bought the same car one day later paid €5kish in VRT.

This also applies to imports, so if you compare a car that was bought and registered in ROI in 2007 (for example) against an identical car that was registered in the UK on the same day but imported and registered in Ireland after 1/7/08 there will again be a difference in VRT paid that amounts to several thousand Euro.


Sooo... before anyone entertains a debate about whether cyclists have a right to the road if they don't pay motor tax, there should be a robust debate as to whether drivers of 2007 cars have more of a right to the road than 2008 cars, and whether purchasers of cars registered first in ROI have more of a right to the road than purchasers of cars imported from the UK.


The entire argument is fallacious and deserves no further debate.

Bunnyhopper

-Chris- wrote: »

But just to throw a spanner in the "logic" of the argument further...

I like the way you think

Cabaal

Given I have to drive to work yes I very much pay motor tax, still atleast its only around 256e a year could be much much worse.

Of course the problem with this thread is its affectively pointless

Nobody pays "ROADTAX" instead they pay MOTORTAX which is just a tax like many others that's put into a big slush fund and is used for many many different things in this country from healthcare to roads etc.

So regardless if you pay it or not it changes nothing regarding your "right" to using the roads as if you pay any tax you have as much right as anyone else.

Anyone who uses the motortax argument against cyclists is a f*ckin idiot

Cabaal

Lumen wrote: »

I don't think it's so much of a rights issue, more a "pay your share" issue.

The easy solution is to abolish motor tax and VRT. Then everyone pays the same rate of VAT on their chosen mode of transport, and road maintenance comes out of general taxation.

While bicycles wear the roads less than cars, both of those wear the roads much less than freight, and we all use freight one way of the other.

Very pointless idea of a system though, if somebody was mad or crazy enough to do it it could actually discourage people from cycling if they also drove as they'd have to pay more tax.

Should we also tax people for walking on say country roads, after all its still wear on the roads
:rolleyes:

Lumen

Cabaal wrote: »

Very pointless idea of a system though, if somebody was mad or crazy enough to do it it could actually discourage people from cycling if they also drove as they'd have to pay more tax.

Should we also tax people for walking on say country roads, after all its still wear on the roads
:rolleyes:

I don't understand any of your response. Please explain.

BostonB

Its a BS question for a number of reasons.

Still this poll illustrates most cyclists actually do pay motor tax.

Saila

has everyone missed the fact this is in the cycling forum and there is a response like "I dont cycle" as an option!

irishmotorist

It looks to me like there are a lot of knickers getting in a twist for no reason here. A simple question was asked with the reason for the question being supplied:

Every now and then a flame war erupts over cyclists' use of the roads and the fact that bicycles are not liable for motor tax.

So, do cyclists really not pay motor tax?

The purpose of the poll is just to gauge (unscientifically) whether the charge that cyclists don't pay motor tax is on balance largely true or largely false.

Some people are saying that if you cycle, you don't pay tax. This is false and is actually the type of arguement that the OP is trying to address. The fact is that you don't pay tax for cycling a bike.

Others are saying that it's a stupid question. Wrong! If you have no interest in the answer yourself, don't bother yourself with it. The OP wanted to know, and now he has a good idea - as do the rest of us who are interested to look at the results. I found the poll interesting and didn't realise there would be such a high number of people who have just a bike and no car (assuming that paying no motor tax and that it's a cycling forum means that you have no car).

Also, why do people here and on the motors forum always try to distinguish between 'cyclists' and 'motorists'? It's childish, tbh. As the poll shows, many of us manange to transcend both skills.

Of course motor tax doesn't pay for the roads. Utopia is where the proceeds of a particular tax go directly into what was taxed. The country is in a jock at the moment and all tax is going into the ever increasing hole which, unfortunately, will probably mean more holes on the road to cause difficulties for all road users.

dayshah

victorcarrera wrote: »

Cyclists don't damage roads and if anything reduce carbon emisions, so why tax them.

True. A bike weighs a fraction of a car.

But I think the important point (especially for the minority of annoying taxi drivers) is that motor tax covers less than half the cost of the road network. Given that taxi drivers are supposed to all be broke they must be paying no income tax, but I am. So even though I don't pay motor tax I make a bigger contribution to maintaining the roads (and I contribute a tiny fraction of the damage).

Regarding freight, we all use it. Tax it and the price will be passed on to the consumer, and thats how they'll pay. It seems the best solution to me.

Signal_ rabbit

I think a carbon tax poll would be more relevant.....


.............I'll get my coat!

HivemindXX

I think it was an interesting poll.

It's a fact that "you don't pay road tax so get off the road" is a rubbish statement on a number of levels but I'm happy to have another argument to throw back at the idiots who come out with it.


We've got

• Road Tax doesn't exist. It's Motor Tax. This is a bicycle. No motor, no tax. Is that too hard to understand?
• Roads are paid for out of the general tax pool. I pay plenty of income tax. I've got a good job and pay a lot of income tax, perhaps we should compare our tax bills, maybe you should be getting your car out of my way.
• Roads are public property maintained by the government for the public good. Everyone gets to use them within the rules laid down by the authorities. You might not like it but your opinion counts for nothing.

Since this poll is currently showing 80% of cyclists also pay Motor Tax in some way we've also got

• I pay Motor Tax (not Road Tax) on my own car(s). Today I chose to cycle. I'm getting where I want to go more easily and I'm causing less congestion. 80% of cyclist have cars and pay Motor Tax. Would it really make you feel better if four out of five of those people were stuck in traffic blocking the roads instead?

Of course none of those arguments actually make any difference to the hardened anti-cyclist idiot. They just glance off their armour of ignorance. However there are plenty of people out there who have just heard the "they can use the roads when they pay road tax" attitude. In my experience that comes up in the majority of conversations about cycling with non-cyclists. It's well worthwhile to let people hear all the counter arguments. Even if you won't convince the already decided anti-cyclist, it's beneficial to put your case in front of those that have never really thought about it.

Think of it like the Moon landing. No amount of evidence will get the conspiracy nuts to change their minds. However I've had conversations with people who think the conspiracy theory has some merit because they had never heard rebuttals of the arguments.

-Chris-

HivemindXX wrote: »

Think of it like the Moon landing...
...I've had conversations with people who think the conspiracy theory has some merit because they had never heard rebuttals of the arguments.

Not to take this off topic, but...

Seriously?? :eek:

ednwireland

HivemindXX wrote: »

[*]Roads are public property maintained by the government for the public good. Everyone gets to use them within the rules laid down by the authorities. You might not like it but your opinion counts for nothing.
.

considering this gov is hell bent on increasing th current tax scheme AND tolling every road they can get away with i think we may be going back to

Rowery

tomasrojo wrote: »

Since I don't own a vehicle with a motor I don't and can't pay motor tax.

I do drive cars occasionally. I leave insurance, tax, etc. to the car-hire company.

Interesting that this is just about tax, what about the insurance, I was very impressed to learn last week that my cycling Ireland licence insures the third party I might damage or injure, I thought it was just for club rides. I think we need another poll, I reckon if you are commuting everyday, obviously the risk is increased, then you should have insurance, you could hurt some poor bugger who has no health insurance, costing the state some cash it doesn't have and him/her a night or two on a trolley in some God awful corridor !

doozerie

Anyone who gives it even the smallest amount of thought will quickly realise that the "you don't pay motor tax therefore you have no rights, blah blah" argument is nonsense. The problem is though that all too often the people who trot out that argument don't care to take the time to think about it. Everyone has a right to choose to be as ignorant as they like of course but the more this argument is recited the more it becomes practically an accepted "fact". Ignoring the argument is one option but encouraging people to question it is, in my mind, more constructive. So I think a thread like this does serve a purpose, and I too find the figures in the poll interesting.

rp

Rowery wrote: »

I think we need another poll, I reckon if you are commuting everyday, obviously the risk is increased !

I don't think that is a big risk, all the same: according to Garda data for 2002 to 2006 for Dublin, there was something like 4 or 5 cases each year where a cyclist was at fault and hit a pedestrian. I dunno, but I'm guessing few of those incidents involved experienced commuters: it hurts too much, so we try not to do it.

dayshah

Rowery wrote: »

Interesting that this is just about tax, what about the insurance, I was very impressed to learn last week that my cycling Ireland licence insures the third party I might damage or injure, I thought it was just for club rides. I think we need another poll, I reckon if you are commuting everyday, obviously the risk is increased, then you should have insurance, you could hurt some poor bugger who has no health insurance, costing the state some cash it doesn't have and him/her a night or two on a trolley in some God awful corridor !

Given the small damage a bike can do in comparison to a car I doubt it would be worth the administration, and would just end up as a racket for the insurance companies.

BostonB

Hitting anything on the bike is usually going to also hurt the cyclist. So I expect that most try to avoid it.

Considering they can't enforce insurance on cars,....

Dublin_Gunner

The laws state 'mechanically propelled vehicles' so unless you're a robot, you do not pay Motor tax for your bicycle.

Though as has been stated, a lot of cyclists also drive cars etc for which they do pay tax.

seamus

The poll is a little off because there's no base for comparison.

We really need to ask the same poll on the Motors forum:

1. I don't pay motor tax on my primary vehicle (either because I don't have to or I choose not to)
2. I do pay motor tax on my primary vehicle.

I wouldn't be surprised if question 1 accounted for 20% of motorists.

Or ask the question slightly differently:
"Is motor tax paid by somebody on your primary vehicle" Yes/No.