"no, I'm actually an athiest"

MrStuffins

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Its proven with about the same certainty that the Earth revolves around the Sun. Its fact. evolution has been observed in the laboratory.

*awaits more nit-picking*

oppenheimer1

MrStuffins wrote: »

I wouldn't have a problem if this was an individual and his Sun-Worshipping didn't effect me directly. Go on ahead Mr/Sun Worshipper AS LONG AS YOU ARE NOT INFRINGING ON MY LIFE.

However, this is not what we're talking about. We're talking about religions, churches, etc.

No we're not talking about religions or churches. Atheism has nothing to do with them, it specifically relates to the non belief or rejection of a belief in God. As I said it is possible to separate the teachings of the churches from the personal belief in God. If you don't have a problem with someone privately worshipping the Sun, then why would you take issue with someone having a private belief that Jesus was their God.

As I said I can understand anti-Catholicism especially if the legacy of the influence of the Church impacts their life. I can even understand anger directed towards the anti-science religious groups. What I can't understand is the need for any person whether Theist or Atheist to involve themselves in someone elses personal beliefs, to dismiss or act condescendingly towards them.

MrStuffins

NoQuarter wrote: »

So were not religious in our thoughts, we just have one common "belief" to use your word that a god doesnt exist.

Lack of belief is not a belief!

I don't believe in fairies, goblins, unicorns etc. This is a trait i share with millions of people.

However, just because we share this "non-belief", does not make us "religious".

Belief of itself is to believe in something. Atheism is the opposite of that!

Dinner

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

No scientific theory is ever considered proved beyond a shadow of a doubt. When it is it becomes scientific law.

My understanding of a scientific law (backed up by some quick googling) is that a law describes what happens, and doesn't attempt to describe why, as a scientific theory does. So to say that a scientific theory 'graduates' into being a law isn't accurate. For example Newton's laws of motion describe what happens, but doesn't describe why it happens.

Turtwig

PAULWATSON wrote: »

If it was so eaily proved, would there be such an ongoing debate on the topic?

Missed this earlier.

If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence.
-BertrandRussell

MrStuffins

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

No we're not talking about religions or churches. Atheism has nothing to do with them, it specifically relates to the non belief or rejection of a belief in God. As I said it is possible to separate the teachings of the churches from the personal belief in God. If you don't have a problem with someone privately worshipping the Sun, then why would you take issue with someone having a private belief that Jesus was their God.

You continue to fail to understand what i am saying to you. I seriously don't know how i could have been any clearer before. I presume you've been reading my posts!

If you wish to learn more about my point, please go back and read my previous posts explaining my point of view. I won't type it again. I shouldn't need to!

Turtwig

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Its proven with about the same certainty that the Earth revolves around the Sun. Its fact. evolution has been observed in the laboratory.

Including the laboratory of Intelligent design advocates.:D
(For the uninitiated they claim beneficial mutations cannot happen by selection)

she discussed “leaky growth,” in microbial colonies at high densities, leading to horizontal transfer of genetic information, and announced that under such conditions she had actually found a novel variant that seemed to lead to enhanced colony growth. Gunther Wagner said, “So, a beneficial mutation happened right in your lab?” at which point the moderator halted questioning.

Source.

oppenheimer1

.

aDeener

MrStuffins wrote: »

I wouldn't have a problem if this was an individual and his Sun-Worshipping didn't effect me directly. Go on ahead Mr/Sun Worshipper AS LONG AS YOU ARE NOT INFRINGING ON MY LIFE.

However, this is not what we're talking about. We're talking about religions, churches, etc.

and how the fuck are they effecting you?

no one forces you to have anything to do with them. or are you that pathetic so as to be offended by the mere sight of them? grow up :rolleyes:

MrStuffins

aDeener wrote: »

and how the fuck are they effecting you?

no one forces you to have anything to do with them. or are you that pathetic so as to be offended by the mere sight of them? grow up :rolleyes:

Whoa. relax there horse!

Again, i have spelled out a few ways in which the Catholic Church have effected me and others and continue to do so.

I suggest you relax on the aggressive tone. It's not my fault you're too lazy to read my previous posts!

oppenheimer1

MrStuffins wrote: »

Whoa. relax there horse!

Again, i have spelled out a few ways in which the Catholic Church have effected me and others and continue to do so.

I suggest you relax on the aggressive tone. It's not my fault you're too lazy to read my previous posts!

Then your problem is with the Catholic Church organisation and not God then?

MrStuffins

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Then your problem is with the Catholic Church organisation and not God then?

We are going around in circles!

AGAIN........ this part of the conversation has already taken place!

Overheal

I Said: Kill. It. With. Fire.

Greentopia

KeithAFC wrote: »

Some one who has no faith and kills for a political reason. Im sure there has been many Atheists who have killed in general.

That's a logical fallacy. If someone kills for political reasons and also happens to be a "millitant" atheist it's self-evident that their political beliefs is the motivation behind the killing, not because they happen to have a lack belief in a god.
That's the same fallacious argument that some believers put forward that because Hitler and Stalin were atheists and mass murders so therefore atheists=murderers.

KeithAFC wrote: »

And im sure many religious people have killed without doing it in the name of god. Many for political reasons too.

And? again that's self-evident. What's your point?

Son Of A Vidic

MrStuffins wrote: »

Nope.

So you must be a millionaire then? Because if you can prove the theory of evolution beyond all reasonable doubt? Well then you have just ended a great universal debate. So can you please prove it for me? I am an open minded individual, so work away.

The sad thing is, there is too much ego is involved in science. Sciencetist should always been continuosly critically evaluating their own theories. Unfortuantely this is rarely the case, if a scientist does not remain open minded well then they are missing the point. The irony is a lot become to 'God' like to admit they might be wrong, or perhaps made a mistake.




*To avoid any confusion here, I don't bow to a Roman Dictator*

MrStuffins

Overheal wrote: »

I Said: Kill. It. With. Fire.

I kinda wish i'd never gotten involved!

I just keep getting asked the same thing over and over! Things i've already explained i need to explain them again and again! :rolleyes:

MrStuffins

medicman2009 wrote: »

So you must be a millionaire then? Because if you can prove the theory of evolution beyond all reasonable doubt? Well then you have just ended a great universal debate. So can you please prove it for me? I am an open minded individual, so work away.

Again, where's the debate? Who is debating and what is their argument against Evolution?

You don't think that the masses upon masses upon masses of EVIDENCE is enough? Who is refuting the evidence?

This question has been asked a few times in this thread and nobody has answered it.

Am i the only one paying attention here?

Mr Benevolent

Religion and atheism share one common trait - they're both unbelievably boring to talk about.

oppenheimer1

NoQuarter wrote: »

Copycat!

Perhaps you will understand athiesm better now considering we agree on some points too, it proves that athiesm is not a set of beliefs and merely a common refusal to believe in a god but yet athiests have completely different ideas of other things.

So were not religious in our thoughts, we just have one common "belief" to use your word that a god doesnt exist.

I fully acknowledge that the only thing all atheists have in common is a lack of belief in God.

However you have to admit that some atheists group themselves together to promote their non-belief in a manner which is similar and just as fervent to the way traditional evangelical "religious" organisations do (While not religions, these organisations do have a few of the characteristics of a traditional religious organisation, I'm thinking British Humanist Association here)

Son Of A Vidic

MrStuffins wrote: »

Am i the only one paying attention here?

Clearly not, whilst you did quote my first post in this thread, you obviously did not read it. Because I was merely pointing out fact, which is gravity can be measured, recorded and proven. Evolution is merely a THEORY.

MrStuffins wrote: »

Again, where's the debate? Who is debating and what is their argument against Evolution?

I'm certainly not debating, I believe in evolution about as much as I believe that some guy sailed around in a Ark. There's no evidence for either and just because a group believes doesn't make it truth.

MrStuffins wrote: »

You don't think that the masses upon masses upon masses of EVIDENCE is enough? Who is refuting the evidence?

I've already told you I'm open minded, so where is the irrefutable evidence you speak of??

* Begins to bore himself with this *

MrStuffins

medicman2009 wrote: »

I'm certainly not debating, I believe in evolution about as much as I believe that some guy sailed around in a Ark. There's no evidence for either and just because a group believes doesn't make it truth.

So wait..... what you're saying is...... there is NO evidence for evolution?

I'm sorry, you have to be trolling! There is no way i'm having THIS conversation hahaha!

Trolls used to be so much better back in the day!

Greentopia

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

What I can't understand is the need for any person whether Theist or Atheist to involve themselves in someone elses personal beliefs, to dismiss or act condescendingly towards them.

I think there's a fundamental difference between dismissing or rejecting beliefs and dismissing/rejecting the person who holds those beliefs.
I'm an atheist (somewhat anti-theist) and I always try to be mindful of treating people with respect and am never (at least consciously) condescending when engaging in religious discussion. Beliefs however IMO are fair game for criticism.

Unfortunately because many overtly religious people see their religious beliefs as an intrinsic part of their very being they find it impossible to separate their beliefs from the rest of themselves.
This creates a rather unfair situation for anyone wishing to have an open and robust debate about religion with them because they will often pull out the victim card claiming they're being bullied or insulted if their beliefs are pulled apart, and hurt feelings and flouncing ensues.
I've seen it happen time and time again IRL and in other fora.

As long as religious people get to equate their religious beliefs with their very selves any criticism, or indeed any kind of dispassionate discussion of religious beliefs in the abstract will be viewed as disrespectful and is therefore impossible.

Greentopia

Confab wrote: »

Religion and atheism share one common trait - they're both unbelievably boring to talk about.

I dispute that sir! I spend many a non-boring hour talking and debating the subject on other fora.:D

Of course this may also mean I am indeed boring and need to get out more :pac:

mohawk

medicman2009 wrote: »

Evolution is merely a THEORY.

OMG go back and read the thread from the start other people have addressed this. In order to engage in a debate you should learn what a scientific theory means.

I like your cynacism, not your method. I'm sick of hearing "I'm an atheist, but when questioned, can't even define the beliefs, or lack of, that is atheism.

Personally? I don't fit in anywhere really. I just have a real obsession with religion and learning about the beliefs, holy texts and practices of other religions. This, apparently, makes me a "religious nut". Nut yeah, probably. If a friend tells me they think Islam is being misrepresented in the media, I can tell them from hours spent reading pro-Islamic sites, and anti-Islamic sites, and the Koran as best I can find in English, and experiences with my Muslim ex-boyfriend and his friends, where I believe that Islam has been fairly represented and where it has been misrepresented. And suddenly, "OMG you're racist!" - why> Because I am speaking sometimes critically of a religion that is mostly (not totally) followed by people with a different colour skin than I have. They politely forget the Muslim ex boyfriend, or accuse me of dumping him because he was Muslim.

I always bring JWs and Mormons into the house, and when they want to have bible study, I say no problem, wait a sec, and go grab my very dusty and abandoned, but very well read Christian bible. Note - not the Catholic bible, no sir.

I don't speak out against any religion, I only point out their beliefs. You will always offend and upset someone. But as soon as you mention God, an "atheist" will jump on you and yell "I can believe what I want to!!"

Yeah, go away and do that then, leave me to my obsession please!!

Ickle Magoo

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I fully acknowledge that the only thing all atheists have in common is a lack of belief in God.

However you have to admit that some atheists group themselves together to promote their non-belief in a manner which is similar and just as fervent to the way traditional evangelical "religious" organisations do (While not religions, these organisations do have a few of the characteristics of a traditional religious organisation, I'm thinking British Humanist Association here)

You mean they want equality? That's the same as evangelism now, is it?

ColmDawson

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

You mean they want equality? That's the same as evangelism now, is it?

Pesky atheists, always wanting equality. Just like the wimmen and the gays! Bah!

JokerD

Just a question for anyone claiming to be an Athiest, come Christmas time, do you give and receive presents? If you don't believe in God then you don't believe in Jesus so really it would be the height of hypocrisy if you celebrated Christmas. Anybody who answers honestly and answers with a yes I give then your credibility as an Athiest is a farce.

Ickle Magoo

Claiming to be atheists? lol.

Given that nothing bar the first six letters of the name has any basis in christianity then I don't think atheists are the hypocrites, tbh, taking every available celebration and feast as your own and then claiming exclusivity tho... :P

MrStuffins

JokerD wrote: »

Just a question for anyone claiming to be an Athiest, come Christmas time, do you give and receive presents? If you don't believe in God then you don't believe in Jesus so really it would be the height of hypocrisy if you celebrated Christmas. Anybody who answers honestly and answers with a yes I give then your credibility as an Athiest is a farce.

I've answered this already in this thread. If you wish to read the long answer, along with the details, it is in the thread.

Short answer, yes, i give and receive presents. I don't see it in contradiction to my non belief in God.