"no, I'm actually an athiest"

Ridley

Helix wrote: »

theres no acceptance required for atheism

acceptance is only required to believe in something, not to not believe in it

You need to believe there are no gods to be an atheist, not ignorant of the concept of deities at birth... I believe.

Helix

Ridley wrote: »

You need to believe there are no gods to be an atheist, not ignorant of the concept of deities at birth... I believe.

believing in something is what requires the actual conscious effort

not believing does not

therefore not believing in something isnt something you have to accept

you do not need to believe that there are no gods to be an atheist, you simply need to not believe in gods

there is a difference, and though it may be small in the bigger picture, in your arguement its huge

a child will never believe in a god if he isnt raised that way or taught about it, this does not mean that he believes there are no gods, it means he does not believe in god. that is the default stance, atheism, because to become a theist you must learn and accept something

another example could be maths. the default stance is not being able to do algebra, because it is something you need to learn, like religion

every catholic in ireland would be muslim if they had been born in a muslim country, and theyd have believed they were equally right about what they believe in then too

Ickle Magoo

Ridley wrote: »

You need to believe there are no gods to be an atheist, not ignorant of the concept of deities at birth... I believe.

Atheism is just defined as lack of belief... "a" without - I'd agree to a point that complicit atheism is distinct from lack of knowledge but I certainly lacked belief in the positive long before I knew any of the arguments against.

Ridley

I concede defeat in a battle of semantics.

At 5:00am.

On a Sunday.

With two on one.

El Diablo 101

Whether I am an atheist or not is somewhat irrelevant to the point I'm going to make.

I believe there is more of a backlash towards the Catholic Church rather than an 'I'm an atheist' trend. Certain incidents in the Church (particularly in Ireland) have painted a bad picture of the Church, and therefore there is a trend to dis-associate from it.

I have witnessed believers get sneered at by arrogant atheists, and I have also witnessed atheists get sneered at by know-it-all believers, and I think that both sides fundamentalists are arrogant and ignorant.

Also, atheists will not be AS arrogant or condescending when a Muslim or a Jew mentions his/her religion. They sidestep the question and deal with it very delicately. If the same person was to say they were a Catholic, there will be the usual sneers and condescending attitudes.

By the way lads, evolution is very very real.

TheReverend

El Diablo 101 wrote: »

Also, atheists will not be AS arrogant or condescending when a Muslim or a Jew mentions his/her religion. They sidestep the question and deal with it very delicately. If the same person was to say they were a Catholic, there will be the usual sneers and condescending attitudes.

I disagree, if anyone of any faith makes a stupid statement I will argue it the same way and have done so in the past.

DOC09UNAM

OutlawPete wrote: »

If I was up my own arse, as most Atheists appear to be

I disagree with this, those people are up their own arses because it's their personality, not because they are atheists.

I for one am an atheist and would not consider myself up my own hole.

efb

@outlaw I'm not up my own arse, the organised religions just preach that it's wrong to be up another man's.

Which is certainly not the case.

Jesus seems like a sound guy, shame his message seemed to get used for other means

zerohamster

OP sems to be getting mixed up with people that simply disagree what he believes in....

" I don't pride myself on "the scientific method", or believe in evolution for that matter."

So you're not a "bible basher" but yet you disregard science or its findings?
Science may have a lot of theory as to how things work compared to proven facts but when has it ever tried to disprove the existence of God or the meaning of life, the universe and everything in it?

you may come to realise that these "smug athiests" are the generation of people that have decided to make up their own mind about what they believe and what makes sense to them and fair play to them for not having beliefs pushed on them like so many generations that didnt have as much freedom of choice.

Im also going to go out on a limb and suggest that you are in or around your late 40's/early 50's and are refering to "young people" as these "smug athiests"?
Before you stereotype others take a look at yourself...or perhaps read a science book while you're at it.

goingpostal

MrStuffins wrote: »

While i agree with your sentiment, there is no getting away from the fact that those who argue against Evolution are completely ignorant to the FACT of Evolution.

You can show these people over and over but they remain ignorant. It's actually kinda frustrating.

These people have far too much to lose, by believing in the FACT of evolution. That is why they have to construct a fantasy land where Jesus rode around on a dinosaur.

Elenxor

Believe what you like..
just stop trying to 'save' me!

Scanlas The 2nd

krudler wrote: »

Dawkins is a twat, so dont assume all athiests/non believers agree with everything he says, his arguments maybe, but not his methods.

I don't see how Dawkins' is a twat. Seems like a nice man to me.

bnt

Ridley wrote: »

You need to believe there are no gods to be an atheist, not ignorant of the concept of deities at birth... I believe.

Nope. Such a claim would be a fallacy, and good luck trying to find anyone who actually says that about him- or herself. In his book The God Delusion, for example, Richard Dawkins goes to a lot of trouble to describe different degrees of belief, and where he positions himself.

What you do see, however, are religious types trying to tell you that this is the case, whether out of ignorance or in a deliberate attempt to paint atheists as irrational. Asking a religious person about atheism makes as much sense as asking a Catholic priest about sex. If you want to know more about atheism, ask the atheists. We have thought about this stuff, you know ... a lot. :cool:

Handsome Bob

goingpostal wrote: »

a fantasy land where Jesus rode around on a dinosaur.

I would pay to see that movie.

MagicMarker

It's unfortunate how people are still arguing against evolution. They don't seem to realise that they literally may as well be arguing against the Earth revolving around the Sun. That's how much evidence there is in favour of evolution.

OutlawPete, can you please answer Ickle Magoos question? Have you actually read any books on evolution? Because, from our last thread on this, I seem to remember you saying that you didn't know much about it, and you may also have asked the dreaded ''if men came from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?'' question.

Also, you haven't answered my own question. Would you deny your cousins are your cousins even if you had DNA evidence?

And as for medicman, there's NO evidence for evolution? It's ''just a theory'', and gravity has been proven? lol. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but gravity is also ''just a theory''.

Dave!

Funnily enough, Richard Dawkins appeared on Bill Maher's show Real Time just a couple of days ago, and he deals with matters related to evolution

Quick, watch before the video is taken down!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paISgrcbmqA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paISgrcbmqA

gbee

PAULWATSON wrote: »

Is this some sort of snobbish "new, new Ireland" thing that has passed me bye? No bible basher myself, however I don't ever want to be confused

What's happening to you is a crisis of faith, you 'suddenly' realise that your comfort zone has lost some of it protection and the fear of becoming an Atheist is a terrifying thought.

Yet, you do not have the confidence in your own faith to get the strength needed to dissuade your fears.

You were probably taught that an Atheist was the Anti Christ personified and now you are faced with a reality that they are normal people doing normal things and enjoying life.

I came to this crisis 40 years ago, in a Roman Catholic upbringing, I was told that the Protestants had tails and cloven feet ~ then one day I discovered that one close family friend and daily visitor was a Protestant, but she had neither affliction .... my fist crisis of faith .... my previous belief and expectations shattered!!!

I can only empathise with you at this time, I know it's like a death in the family, after all you believed in all that was told to you and now you see clearly a contrary reality.

Good luck with your conversion, I hope it passes more smoothly for you.

Feeona

I have met some atheists who have done everything bar 'I am atheist, hear me roar' to get attention. It's tiresome to talk to someone who has the view that they're the first person ever to have thought of an alternative to organised religion, and proceed to suck the life out of conversation in an over zealous attempt to convert you to their belief. Like a salesman at the door who believes in his product so much, that he can't hear you when you tell him to 'F*ck off, I'm watching Emmerdale'.

I've also met atheists who could make interesting conversation without beating you over the head with the fact that they're atheist. I'd rather listen to them than watch Emmerdale

MagicMarker

Dave! wrote: »

Funnily enough, Richard Dawkins appeared on Bill Maher's show Real Time just a couple of days ago, and he deals with matters related to evolution

Quick, watch before the video is taken down!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paISgrcbmqA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paISgrcbmqA

I'm not a frican!! :mad: :pac:

goingpostal

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Well it appears to me that atheism is the new religion.


All one has to do is look through threads here to see the dismissive attitude towards particularly Christianity but other religions too. It is as if these people are more enlightened than those who believe in God(s), when ther're nothing more than smug self righteous gits. Beliefs, in God, Gods or none at all, are a private thing and peoples beliefs should be respected even if different to your own.

Christians, to give the most pertinent example, have a very hard time keeping their beliefs to themselves. They are never happy that they believe what they believe, they will only be happy when I also believe what they believe. Thats why they keep throwing their garbage magazines through my letter box. I have a duty to respect a believer as a human being. I have a duty to respect their right to believe whatever fairytale they choose to believe. I have absolutely no duty to respect the content of their belief system/book of fairytales. As long as they keep exercising their right to shout about whatever nonsense they believe in, I will continue to exercise my right to ridicule them.

orourkeda

Dave! wrote: »

Funnily enough, Richard Dawkins appeared on Bill Maher's show Real Time just a couple of days ago, and he deals with matters related to evolution

Quick, watch before the video is taken down!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paISgrcbmqA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paISgrcbmqA

Although Hitler was raised as a catholic, he was non practicing and he also favoured particular tenets or protestanism.

It was more his interpretation of christianity that were the basis of his anti semitism. He is known to have been critical ofand even openly antagonistic towards catholicism, certainly in private.

orourkeda

goingpostal wrote: »

Christians, to give the most pertinent example, have a very hard time keeping their beliefs to themselves. They are never happy that they believe what they believe, they will only be happy when I also believe what they believe. Thats why they keep throwing their garbage magazines through my letter box. I have a duty to respect a believer as a human being. I have a duty to respect their right to believe whatever fairytale they choose to believe. I have absolutely no duty to respect the content of their belief system/book of fairytales. As long as they keep exercising their right to shout about whatever nonsense they believe in, I will continue to exercise my right to ridicule them.

To gain respect you must treat others with the same respect.

Ridicule doesn't gain respect from anyone.

lugha

orourkeda wrote: »

To gain respect you must treat others with the same respect.

Ridicule doesn't gain respect from anyone.

I guess some believers to get rather ruffled at some atheists telling them what’s what, but it is not a trait peculiar to atheism. I would suggest it is an instinctive response for many of us to be less then respectful to opinions we regard to be nonsensical (unless we make a conscious effort to respond differently).

I have noted on several occasions, individuals who professed very strong religious belief, dismiss in the most sneering and condescending terms those who believe in astrology or psychic ability or the like.

Wibbs

Scanlas The 2nd wrote:

I don't see how Dawkins' is a twat. Seems like a nice man to me.

I agree. He can go OTT at times and some of his take on spirituality can be limited by his viewpoint, but he does seem like a decent kinda guy.

MagicMarker wrote: »

I'm not a frican!! :mad: :pac:

I'd argue we're not quite all Africans either. Well we are "all Africans" if you go far enough back, but we're also just as locally evolved too. Nice catchphrase for a tee shirt, but it's too simplistic a notion IMHO. You could exaggerate it further and say we're "All Fish". Well we are if you go far enough back Then again with a disturbingly large amout of people around who are afraid/ignorant of even basic science I say +1 to teh tee shirt.

goingpostal

orourkeda wrote: »

To gain respect you must treat others with the same respect.

Ridicule doesn't gain respect from anyone.

I have no duty to respect a work of fiction which patently came from the pen of semi-literate bronze age agrarians.

nix

What in the name of science is going on in here...

Evolution is scientific fact, to deny it is just stupid :rolleyes:

Oh my science!

prinz

goingpostal wrote: »

Christians, to give the most pertinent example, have a very hard time keeping their beliefs to themselves. They are never happy that they believe what they believe, they will only be happy when I also believe what they believe. Thats why they keep throwing their garbage magazines through my letter box...

Funnily enough, as a Christian, I couldn't give a toss what you believe and have never in my life put a religious magazine through anyone's letter box. On the other hand I've had an ignorant twat insult my intelligence for browsing the religion and philosophy section in a Dublin bookshop. Guess we're even.

liah

For anyone who doesn't believe in evolution, do you mind explaining how vaccines work, and why we need to keep upgrading our vaccines annually?

Oh, and this: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/04/080421-lizard-evolution.html

Thanks

MrStuffins

OutlawPete wrote: »

Oh sorry, where you speaking of MrStuffin's Theory of Evolution?

Don't blame me for your presumtions. Which, of course, there are a lot of! Like here:

I don't sneer and laugh at people who believe things and go about their business as atheists do.

Not all Athiests, nor most Athiests, do this. Also, it is not an exclusively Athiest trait.

Well most condescending atheists sound as obnoxious as him, so they'll have to excuse the misunderstanding that they must in fact be members of his fan club.

On this occassion, it is YOU who is feeding a misconception! It is you who is believing and leading others to believe that all(most) athiests are Richard Dawkins followers and act exactly like him. You are being absurd!

Most atheists have a boner for Dawkins, so you'll just have to get used to be tarred with the same brush for awhile.

again, here you are jumping to ridiculous conclusions again. You confuse "Most of Dawkins' fans are Athiest" with "most athiests are fans of Dawkins". Please, is logic lost on you altogether?

Please Outlaw Pete, the irony of your posying here is not lost. Get off your high horse or drop your misconceptions, maybe then you will have something informed to add to the debate, instead of just doing the typical AH stuff and saying "Well, most of this group of people are like this"

:rolleyes:

philologos

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

Atheists seem smug because religion is just so f*cking retarded, it baffles any sane person observing it from the outside.

It must logically follow that I and others are chronically insane? RLY?

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

Religion is an awful thing and brings out some of people's worst traits, and by far the worst people I have ever met were the most religious, its a cop out for human decency and empathy.

I personally am wary of the term religion and religious. I would see religion as implying a set of legalistic patterns for living. I wouldn't say that this is true for Christianity, although I probably would use the term religion anyway.

I've seen the opposite in me and in others. Christianity transformed my existence. From my own point of view, I was a horrible person before I accepted Christ. I'd say from other peoples point of view I was a horrible person also. Just to throw it out there.

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

And the OP is an example of a much worse trend, bitterness towards those that have rejected their oppressive ideas, and are better off and happier for it and this thread is the result, venom spouted at a 'group' whose only common trait is not following his superstition, and labelling them all the same.

I guess for me, it's not bitterness, but I certainly have a real longing for people to know the truth. I long for people to see the truth about Jesus, and about life, because I've seen what a difference it has made in me. It ultimately comes down to me desiring the best for all. I genuinely want people to be saved. Perhaps this is wrong, but I honestly can't see how.

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

Who is claiming to be the beloved creation of an omnipotent being and who knows the true nature of good and evil and working towards eternal life and happiness in a magic realm, and who is the smug one?

I don't see how it is smug to live by God's pattern, and to earnestly desire this for all mankind. I don't want to simply say "I know" and say that you're an awful person for not knowing. This is legalism. It does nobody any good.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Yes you can dismiss it, but there is no need for the condescending attitude of some atheists. Its almost like evangelical atheism. Live and let live and keep ones opinions to ones self. This is especially when anothers belief has no impact on your life.

Is there any point in telling a faithful person there is no God, no afterlife and talking what little hope they have?

I nearly agreed with you until the bold.

Saruman wrote: »

I hear Catholicism was all the rage a few years ago. Trends change and now Atheism is more trendy than theism.

You gotta move with the times :cool:

I expected better of you Saruman. I'm sure you know as well as I do (particularly due to your own background) that you cannot jump from Catholicism to dismissing all theism. It's illogical.

It's the fallacy of saying that some X is Y, therefore all X must of necessity be Y. This is clearly incorrect.

It's an Irish phenomenon I guess that when people walk away from Catholicism they think that's it, that's all faith gone. I'm astounded at the general ignorance of other belief systems in Ireland from conversations I've been in.

It is a cultural thing that Irish people don't continue searching. In the US on the other hand, research by the Pew Forum suggests that 50% of American adults change their belief system / denomination at least once in their lifetime.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

No I'm suggesting that believing in God(s) has nothing to do with being a member of a Church.

^^ Superb. All that needs to be said here.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I agree - and were people happy to keep their faith to themselves and not try to inflict their beliefs on the rest of the world, I can't imagine anyone ever having an issue with it. The problem comes when peoples beliefs in their god and assumptions about what that god thinks and wants makes them knock on my door and wake my kids up or prevent me being able to enrol my kids at the local school or campaign that condoms spread AIDs in africa or even just try to shove god into any available gap left and claim to have debunked evolution because there hasn't been a full skeleton found detailing every evolutionary step in every genera of hominidae over the past 15 million years. :cool:

And nobody is. Nobody is happy to keep their atheism to themselves either. Nobody should be happy to.

The way I see it is, if I really believe that Jesus is the living hope for people to be saved, it would be inhuman of me to keep this to myself.

MrStuffins wrote: »

You see, most of the time (in my experiences, all of the time) when you encounter an Athiest, they have reached this conclusion through logic and thought, so they will always have a logical explanation as to why they don't believe.

It's the people who believe blindly without questioning and who discourage questioning because their beliefs don't stand up to scrutiny, they are the ones who have problems!

I don't believe this is true. I have come across quite a few cases (off-boards) where peoples atheism is influenced quite a bit by emotion. Indeed, I've also seen quite a few cases of theists who can explain their position incredibly well even in the midst of questioning.

Indeed, I don't know any theist who hasn't questioned his or her beliefs seriously at any time in their lives personally. For me, doubt comes and gos. Issues arise, and they are resolved through thought. This is what I would consider a mature faith in God. A recognition that one cannot know everything, and that this world is a puzzle to be understood.

liah wrote: »

For anyone who doesn't believe in evolution, do you mind explaining how vaccines work, and why we need to keep upgrading our vaccines annually?

Oh, and this: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/04/080421-lizard-evolution.html

Thanks

There was a really good video by Thunderf00t on Youtube around the time of the Swine Flu outbreak where he explains how evolution played a role in the spreading of the disease:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8pSPfZFysg

The reality of biological evolution is evidenced everywhere, and can be seen in the lab. Some people don't understand how evolution can take place on a big scale, but if it can on a small scale, then evidentially it can on a large scale. The use of "macroevolution" seems to be an attempt to shield such views from criticism as time goes on. Originally, all evolution would have been denied, now all that can be denied is "macroevolution" and even then there is good reason not to deny it.