"no, I'm actually an athiest"

punchdrunk

could be worse "no,I'm actually a Scientologist"

MrStuffins

punchdrunk wrote: »

could be worse "no,I'm actually a Scientologist"

They never normally have to tell you, the foil hats give them away!:pac:

robindch

orourkeda wrote: »

To gain respect you must treat others with the same respect.

philologos

^^ Some X doing Y does not equal all X doing Y. Robins cartoon is totally correct in many respects of some of X doing Y. Indeed I would also argue that some atheists are quite capable of doing this also, even if I look through some of the posts in this thread?

MrStuffins

Jakkass wrote: »

^^ Some X doing Y does not equal all X doing Y. Robins cartoon is totally correct in many respects of some of X doing Y. Indeed I would also argue that some atheists are quite capable of doing this also, even if I look through some of the posts in this thread?

I have been trying to make this point but nobody will listen.

Some athiests will do this. Some creationists will do that.

But everybody here wants to jump on the "All athiests/creationists are this" bandwagon!

Because some athiests can be condescending, all of a sudden, condescension is an exclusively Athiest trait :rolleyes:

AudreyHepburn

goingpostal wrote: »

I have no duty to respect a work of fiction which patently came from the pen of semi-literate bronze age agrarians.

This sort of sentiment really does nothing for youre argument or for atheism in general.

You don't have to agree with the belief but you do have to respect the person and respond accordingly. Belittling and being condescending just makes you look arrogant and petty tbh.

If you want to get respect you have to give it. Simple as that.

MrStuffins

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

You don't have to agree with the belief but you do have to respect the person and respond accordingly. Belittling and being condescending just makes you look arrogant and petty tbh.

And that was responding accordingly.

How was what he said disrespectful? It's actually true.

Who do you think wrote it then?

krudler

punchdrunk wrote: »

could be worse "no,I'm actually a Scientologist"

scientology only has the disadvantage thats its not been around long enough, its a new kid on the block of crazy beliefs so it had to come in guns blazing.

MrStuffins

krudler wrote: »

scientology only has the disadvantage thats its not been around long enough, its a new kid on the block of crazy beliefs so it had to come in guns blazing.

And it's crazy beliefs are no more crazy than the beliefs of the other major religions!

However, the passage of time seems to make these crazy stories more and more believable!

krudler

A friend of mine accused me of being an atheist for purely aestehtic reasons recently. Kinda like the OP. I tore the face of him (verbally). Believers, in general anyway, sacrifice nothing, and yet have this wonderful comfort blanket. My friends never go to mass, and when they do, they never listen to what's preached. Outwardly, they have as much to do with their religion as I do with the one I renounced. And yet, when the going gets tough, when they're in a bad way, they turn to their God, and receive comfort. They sacrifice nothing, yet gain everything. They don't bother think. They know less about Scripture than I do. And yet they alledge my atheism is some form of fad. It's both ironic and infuriating. A true atheist needs the conviction of his disbelief, a true believer needs nothing of the sort...and yet we're the ones who are followers of the trend...

Thats probably the thing that bugs me most about so called catholics and christians, they'll happily never pray, go to church, ignore the ten commandments, engage in premarital sex, and any other number of stuff that goes against their supposed religion, but when the sh1t hits the fan they go running for the nearest pew or bed to pray on, then thank god when something works out, yet claim it was "his will" when it doesnt.

AudreyHepburn

MrStuffins wrote: »

And that was responding accordingly.

How was what he said disrespectful? It's actually true.

Who do you think wrote it then?

It is true yes. It was the way he put his argument across that I have issue with. It just seemed a little condscending.

krudler

MrStuffins wrote: »

And it's crazy beliefs are no more crazy than the beliefs of the other major religions!

However, the passage of time seems to make these crazy stories more and more believable!

Of course, thats all religion needs, time. Theres only so many times you can be told something is true before you may start to believe it yourself, and in simpler times where people turned to something else for comfort for fear of their own mortality it fit the bill nicely as a security blanket.

People do use the "returning to a state of nothing" as an anti-athiestic stance. Look living in a floating paradise or whatever way you wish to picture heaven is a lovely thought, it really is. But not believing in that is comforting as well, knowing I'm free to live my life as I see fit without some biblical watchman looking over my shoulder to ensure I follow his rules and guidlines is just as comforting.

MrStuffins

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

It probably is true yes. It was the way he put his argument across that I have issue with. It just seemed a little condscending.

Perhaps, but in no way disrespecting your beliefs.

This is another problem I have. Just because someone does not completely adhere to your beliefs and perhaps questions them, does not mean they are disrespecting them.

Catholics are raised to think that questioning is wrong. And those who question your beliefs are wrong to do so. Ridiculous!

liah

Jakkass wrote: »

There was a really good video by Thunderf00t on Youtube around the time of the Swine Flu outbreak where he explains how evolution played a role in the spreading of the disease:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8pSPfZFysg

The reality of biological evolution is evidenced everywhere, and can be seen in the lab. Some people don't understand how evolution can take place on a big scale, but if it can on a small scale, then evidentially it can on a large scale. The use of "macroevolution" seems to be an attempt to shield such views from criticism as time goes on. Originally, all evolution would have been denied, now all that can be denied is "macroevolution" and even then there is good reason not to deny it.

Think this is one of the few times I've actually thanked one of your posts.

Just be aware it's only for that section-- but all the same, hopefully other theists will take note and drop this "but evolution is only a theory it's not proven blah blah blah" crap..

MrStuffins

krudler wrote: »

But not believing in that is comforting as well, knowing I'm free to live my life as I see fit without some biblical watchman looking over my shoulder to ensure I follow his rules and guidlines is just as comforting.

To me it's actually more comforting.

When i'm dead, i won't know about it. So right now, i am not afraid that the questionable things i do in life will result in me spending eternity in hell.

I'm free to live my life as I see fit, which is a great feeling.

No matter how the RCC like to cloak it, they are ruling people through fear, not love. And the same goes for most other religions!

AudreyHepburn

MrStuffins wrote: »

Perhaps, but in no way disrespecting your beliefs.

This is another problem I have. Just because someone does not completely adhere to your beliefs and perhaps questions them, does not mean they are disrespecting them.

Catholics are raised to think that questioning is wrong. And those who question your beliefs are wrong to do so. Ridiculous!

But do you not get that being condescendong towards some-one for any reason is disrespectful?

It's not the questioning I have issue with, nor I suspect do most Catholics it's the part where people start looking down on you for your beliefs that is the problem. I don't if some-one doesn't share my beliefs to be honest. Just be respectful about it.

MrStuffins

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

But do you not get that being condescendong towards some-one for any reason is disrespectful?

It's not the questioning I have issue with, nor I suspect do most Catholics it's the part where people start looking down on you for your beliefs that is the problem. I don't if some-one doesn't share my beliefs to be honest. Just be respectful about it.

Well IMO he wasn't being condescending. So no, i don't think he was being disrespectful in that case!

AudreyHepburn

MrStuffins wrote: »

Well IMO he wasn't being condescending. So no, i don't think he was being disrespectful in that case!

Well that's your opinion and you are entitled to it. To me it was belittling, not me personally but those of faith in general.

Ickle Magoo

Jakkass wrote: »

And nobody is. Nobody is happy to keep their atheism to themselves either. Nobody should be happy to.

The way I see it is, if I really believe that Jesus is the living hope for people to be saved, it would be inhuman of me to keep this to myself.

Nobody is happy to keep their atheism to themselves? Are you for real? Are you seriously claiming every single atheist is on a push to shout out their atheism? You claim this based on what? Can I have stats for that once you're finished getting the "sizeable number" ones please.

As I've already stated in this thread, I've never believed in a god and beyond my own position, I'd never had reason to think about theism Vs atheism before moving here and having to deal with the constant barriers and impositions that the religious still have on this society.

By all means if you can't keep it to yourself then keep blurbing, but don't act all offended when people tell you you are waffling unsubstantiated nonsense that has no place in a modern society if you know what others may think and just can't resist evangelising anyway.

philologos

I'm not offended in the slightest by what you or others post. You are entitled to your views, but your views are subject to criticism. Ultimately, people shouldn't feel like they have to hide who they are. As for who I am, I am a Christian, I won't hide this nor should I make it "private". That was largely my point. I wouldn't expect this of atheists. Perhaps some atheists would be happy to make it a private matter, and perhaps saying that none would was gratuitous. However this "private matter" lark, is just not going to happen.

But yes, I feel that it would be inhuman to regard my Christianity as a private matter. I've had the pleasure of having lots of amazing conversations with non-believers about Christianity, and them about their position on the world while being at university for example.

MrStuffins

Jakkass wrote: »

And nobody is. Nobody is happy to keep their atheism to themselves either. Nobody should be happy to.

Again, i feel i need to explain.

Atheism is NOT a religion. So you know way way more Athiests than you think, because there are no practices of theirs that will give it away. Not like if i see someone go to Church every Sunday, i can safely assume that they are religious!

Why would they feel the need to shout it from the rooftops?

How many people do you reckon don't believe in fairies? A lot perhaps?

Now how many have actually said "Hey, you know what? Have i ever told you that i don't believe in fairies?"

Not a lot i'd imagine!

philologos

I never said it was a religion. It's certainly a philosophical position. There is no reason why any philosophical position, religion, or political view should be a "private matter" in a society with freedom of expression and belief.

Fair?

krudler

MrStuffins wrote: »

Perhaps, but in no way disrespecting your beliefs.

This is another problem I have. Just because someone does not completely adhere to your beliefs and perhaps questions them, does not mean they are disrespecting them.

Catholics are raised to think that questioning is wrong. And those who question your beliefs are wrong to do so. Ridiculous!

Exactly, its "shut up and go along with it and dont question the all powerful clergy" that had this country in a stranglehold of oppression for years. Thanksfully the church has lost all of its credibility in recent times, pity it didnt happen 100 years ago.

liah

Audrey, would you feel the same way if they were being condescending towards Scientologists and not Christians?

Or do you believe it's okay to think of Scientology as ridiculous and say so?

Because, to me, at least, Scientology and Christianity are basically the same thing. As are Egyptian, Roman, Greek, Celtic, etc. religions. And stories of faeries, unicorns, dragons, and so on.

I have a feeling you would not be objecting to me being condescending about anything like Scientology or believing in faeries. I could be wrong. So why is it that we are not allowed to be condescending about your religion, when we equate them to the above-- the above being things I have witnessed many a religious person be condescending about, with no sense of irony?

And would you not consider being told "I'll pray for you," or "one day you'll find God," or whatever else, condescending, if you were an atheist, expressed this to a religious person, and that was their response? The assumption that their truth is the only truth makes those comments seem innocent, from their point of view, but condescending from the other end of the table.

Both sides are as bad as one another, each side will always think the other side is a bit silly, and that's just how it is. If you see people directly attacking other people because of their beliefs, yes, that's wrong-- but if you see people directly attacking the beliefs themselves, you're going to need to set aside the anger as it is, unfortunately, misplaced and a waste of time.

MrStuffins

Jakkass wrote: »

I never said it was a religion. It's certainly a philosophical position. There is no reason why any philosophical position, religion, or political view should be a "private matter" in a society with freedom of expression and belief.

Fair?

Absolutely! In fact, i was having this conversation last night with a poster who seemed to think that everyone's religious beliefs are a "private matter". of course they aren't!

But not telling people of your lack of belief, for me, isn't making it private. It's just not letting it be a big deal.

krudler wrote: »

Exactly, its "shut up and go along with it and dont question the all powerful clergy" that had this country in a stranglehold of oppression for years. Thanksfully the church has lost all of its credibility in recent times, pity it didnt happen 100 years ago.

Exactly. i think my children will be the first real generation who won't give a care about the RCC! (i wish it was ours, but my father's and Grandfather's generation still have a little influence!)

My name is URL

I once got a PM from someone questioning my claim that I was an Atheist, simply because I said that I don't agree with their stance on browbeating believers. That's some strong atheism right there.. don't believe anything, even the disbelief of others!

krudler

liah wrote: »

Audrey, would you feel the same way if they were being condescending towards Scientologists and not Christians?

Or do you believe it's okay to think of Scientology as ridiculous and say so?

Because, to me, at least, Scientology and Christianity are basically the same thing. As are Egyptian, Roman, Greek, Celtic, etc. religions. And stories of faeries, unicorns, dragons, and so on.

I have a feeling you would not be objecting to me being condescending about anything like Scientology or believing in faeries. I could be wrong. So why is it that we are not allowed to be condescending about your religion, when we equate them to the above-- the above being things I have witnessed many a religious person be condescending about, with no sense of irony?

And would you not consider being told "I'll pray for you," or "one day you'll find God," or whatever else, condescending, if you were an atheist, expressed this to a religious person, and that was their response? The assumption that their truth is the only truth makes those comments seem innocent, from their point of view, but condescending from the other end of the table.

Both sides are as bad as one another, each side will always think the other side is a bit silly, and that's just how it is. If you see people directly attacking other people because of their beliefs, yes, that's wrong-- but if you see people directly attacking the beliefs themselves, you're going to need to set aside the anger as it is, unfortunately, misplaced and a waste of time.

Theres a woman I work with who constantly says "god bless" at the end of nearly every call she deals with, if I started ending all my dealings with customers with "praise be to Allah" or something I'd have the HR dept down on me like a ton of rocks to stop it.

....I'm trying it monday :pac:

liah

krudler wrote: »

Theres a woman I work with who constantly says "god bless" at the end of nearly every call she deals with, if I started ending all my dealings with customers with "praise be to Allah" or something I'd have the HR dept down on me like a ton of rocks to stop it.

....I'm trying it monday :pac:

Haha, imagine if you tried signing off the call with "god isn't real?" There'd be uproar!

But, of course, we're the ones being loudmouthed and smug..

In fairness to her and the "I'll pray for you" brigade, I doubt they ever mean it out of malice and are just trying to be good, but it's so goddamn presumptuous and irritating and they completely don't realize what they're doing or why anyone could find it offensive.

philologos

^^ One could hardly say that God bless is smug. It's in effect wishing the best of them for the rest of the day. One could hardly say the same of God isn't real. It's about the sentiment more than anything else.

AudreyHepburn

liah wrote: »

Audrey, would you feel the same way if they were being condescending towards Scientologists and not Christians?

Or do you believe it's okay to think of Scientology as ridiculous and say so?

Because, to me, at least, Scientology and Christianity are basically the same thing. As are Egyptian, Roman, Greek, Celtic, etc. religions. And stories of faeries, unicorns, dragons, and so on.

I have a feeling you would not be objecting to me being condescending about anything like Scientology or believing in faeries. I could be wrong. So why is it that we are not allowed to be condescending about your religion, when we equate them to the above-- the above being things I have witnessed many a religious person be condescending about, with no sense of irony?

And would you not consider being told "I'll pray for you," or "one day you'll find God," or whatever else, condescending, if you were an atheist, expressed this to a religious person, and that was their response? The assumption that their truth is the only truth makes those comments seem innocent, from their point of view, but condescending from the other end of the table.

Both sides are as bad as one another, each side will always think the other side is a bit silly, and that's just how it is. If you see people directly attacking other people because of their beliefs, yes, that's wrong-- but if you see people directly attacking the beliefs themselves, you're going to need to set aside the anger as it is, unfortunately, misplaced and a waste of time.

Please don't presume to know my opinions.

I don't think anyone has the right to be condescending to anybody regardless belief or lack of. So yes I would have the same issue if some-one was belittling a scientologist or some-one believing in fairies etc. And I am well aware that believers can be just as condescending and I have issue with that too.

By all means we can debate and question and disagree but we can do respectfully and not resort to childish belittling.