Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

"no, I'm actually an athiest"

Options
1…2526283031…71

Comments

  • Options
    #812
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    JohnathanM wrote: »
    See, it's that sort of thing that gets my back up. What do you mean, we deserve it? What have I ever done that warrants fiery lakes and nothing on TV be re-runs of "Who's the Boss?"?

    Of course. I know quite clearly that I've violated God's standards in this world, and if I violate them I am deserving of punishment. Likewise if I violate the standards of this State, I am deserving of prosecution.

    Effectively, what I am saying is in fact I understand that I am deserving of hell, however, because Christ has stood in my place, I can be assured of salvation should I believe in Him.

    I realise that I've turned my back on my Creator for most of my life, and I realise that things are a lot better back at home with Him than away from home. His standards are for our benefit. Simply put I believe that He knows best, and the evidence from the last couple of years in my life has led me particularly to believe that this is true.


  • Options
    #813
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,191 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    JohnathanM wrote: »
    Right, so I'm going to burn because some weak-minded fool munched on an apple, just in the hope he might get some. Curse you, ribs!

    Tell me about it. Now i know how Clint Eastwood feels when he's framed for a crime he didn't commit!
    grizzly wrote: »
    “Father, I know that I have broken your laws and my sins have separated me from you. I am truly sorry, and now I want to turn away from my past sinful life toward you. Please forgive me, and help me avoid sinning again. I believe that your son, Jesus Christ died for my sins, was resurrected from the dead, is alive, and hears my prayer. I invite Jesus to become the Lord of my life, to rule and reign in my heart from this day forward. Please send your Holy Spirit to help me obey You, and to do Your will for the rest of my life. In Jesus' name I pray, Amen.”

    Can God not read normal font?


  • Options
    #814
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,191 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Of course. I know quite clearly that I've violated God's standards in this world, and if I violate them I am deserving of punishment. Likewise if I violate the standards of this State, I am deserving of prosecution.

    Effectively, what I am saying is in fact I understand that I am deserving of hell, however, because Christ has stood in my place, I can be assured of salvation should I believe in Him.

    I realise that I've turned my back on my Creator for most of my life, and I realise that things are a lot better back at home with Him than away from home. His standards are for our benefit. Simply put I believe that He knows best, and the evidence from the last couple of years in my life has led me particularly to believe that this is true.

    So, effectively, Pascal was wrong? That whether i do or don't actively believe in God in my time on earth, i still get to sit beside him in Heaven?


  • Options
    #815
    Marcus.Aurelius
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭Marcus.Aurelius


    grizzly wrote: »
    <metaphysical gibberish snip>

    Sorry.

    What were you saying?


  • Options
    #816
    Benincasa
    Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭Benincasa


    efb wrote: »
    No I'm someone that life was torn apart by those saying the (homosexual) feelings I had were evil, while they were abusing, and covering up the abuse of, young children.

    Nazi boy soldier Joe Ratzinger and his brainwashed flock can rot in their hell.

    My remains will burn when they have taken anything of any use and that will be it.

    Am I trying to be cool? No, I'm learning that there is nothing wrong with me, whatever they say.

    Challenge: Name ONE reliable Catholic source (I presume you're talking about Catholics??) who has ever claimed that your FEELINGS are evil. Just one.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #817
    liah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,750 ✭✭✭liah


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    So, effectively, Pascal was wrong? That whether i do or don't actively believe in God in my time on earth, i still get to sit beside him in Heaven?

    If you believe in him.


  • Options
    #818
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,191 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    liah wrote: »
    If you believe in him.
    Ah, sorry. This part confused me....
    Jakkass wrote: »
    I can be assured of salvation should I believe in Him.......

    ........I realise that I've turned my back on my Creator for most of my life.


  • Options
    #819
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    So, effectively, Pascal was wrong? That whether i do or don't actively believe in God in my time on earth, i still get to sit beside him in Heaven?

    From my reading of the Scriptures, I would be led to believe that one needs to believe in Jesus, and be transformed by that belief (acting on it) in order to be saved. This is perhaps quite a Reformed understanding.

    I think Pascals Wager is some of the most illogical philosophy that I've ever read as a philosophy student. It almost could be said not to be philosophy as it doesn't apply the same intellectual rigour that philosophy generally applies to the world and all that is in it.

    I don't believe that God is just about heaven. I've heard some Christian understandings typical to this, but I find that it demeans this existence, it means that earth is just a waiting room whereby we wait for the 2nd coming of Christ, or death.

    Rather I would believe that God should inform my life in this world as well as prepare me for the next. I.E - It's not a waiting room.


  • Options
    #820
    liah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,750 ✭✭✭liah


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Of course. I know quite clearly that I've violated God's standards in this world, and if I violate them I am deserving of punishment. Likewise if I violate the standards of this State, I am deserving of prosecution.

    Effectively, what I am saying is in fact I understand that I am deserving of hell, however, because Christ has stood in my place, I can be assured of salvation should I believe in Him.

    I realise that I've turned my back on my Creator for most of my life, and I realise that things are a lot better back at home with Him than away from home. His standards are for our benefit. Simply put I believe that He knows best, and the evidence from the last couple of years in my life has led me particularly to believe that this is true.

    Okay, then does that mean murderers/pedophiles/adulterers/whatever still get into heaven as long as they believe?

    EDIT: To clarify, what sin is great enough to surpass Jesus' forgiveness and land you in hell even if you do believe?


  • Options
    #821
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,191 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    Also, does God see a person's belief through fear, blackmail or convenience as enough?

    Surely you shouldn't be saved if you are only believing in God JUST IN CASE he exists?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #822
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    liah wrote: »
    Okay, then does that mean murderers/pedophiles/adulterers/whatever still get into heaven as long as they believe?

    If they are genuinely 100% truly sorry for their sin, I believe even the most grievous murderer / child abuser can be forgiven. I believe that people can transform, and I believe that God can judge hearts and minds, so he can tell legitimate from illegitimate repentance. I believe that Adolf Hitler could have been saved if he was truly repentant.

    I'm a huge believer in forgiveness and I don't say this to be provocative, but ultimately the idea is for many people.
    liah wrote: »
    EDIT: To clarify, what sin is great enough to surpass Jesus' forgiveness and land you in hell even if you do believe?

    The Gospels refer to the "denial of the Holy Spirit" as being unforgivable, but there is still huge uncertainty about what actually denial of the Holy Spirit is in the correct context.
    MrStuffins wrote: »
    Also, does God see a person's belief through fear, blackmail or convenience as enough?

    Surely you shouldn't be saved if you are only believing in God JUST IN CASE he exists?

    I believe God will be able to see our motives and look to our hearts and minds as to what we really believe.


  • Options
    #823
    tdv123
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭tdv123


    grizzly wrote: »
    Only if we beg for his mercy and are truly repentant. So your so called "Golden Ticket" will burn with you in the fires of everlasting hell.


    Yeah but thats were all the hookers & drugs are going to be.


  • Options
    #824
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,191 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    tdv123 wrote: »
    Yeah but thats were all the hookers & drugs are going to be.

    This is an excellent point.

    I'm not sure Gandhi is much of a Beer Pong man!


  • Options
    #825
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I think Pascals Wager is some of the most illogical philosophy that I've ever read as a philosophy student. It almost could be said not to be philosophy as it doesn't apply the same intellectual rigour that philosophy generally applies to the world and all that is in it.
    +1

    It is a travesty of human ignorance of the lowest degree to think that that wager is what Pascal is most famous for.What's an even greater tragedy though is so many people don't actually see the flaws in the argument. Travesty aside : The Brilliance of Blaise Pascal.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTHN_eQaEaI


  • Options
    #826
    liah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,750 ✭✭✭liah


    Jakkass wrote: »
    If they are genuinely 100% truly sorry for their sin, I believe even the most grievous murderer / child abuser can be forgiven. I believe that people can transform, and I believe that God can judge hearts and minds, so he can tell legitimate from illegitimate repentance. I believe that Adolf Hitler could have been saved if he was truly repentant.

    I'm a huge believer in forgiveness and I don't say this to be provocative, but ultimately the idea is for many people.



    The Gospels refer to the "denial of the Holy Spirit" as being unforgivable, but there is still huge uncertainty about what actually denial of the Holy Spirit is in the correct context.

    Fair enough, that makes sense, and I can relate to it despite my lack of belief.

    Do you have any theories as to why God created us with free will just to punish us if, while using our free will, we chose not to believe in him? I don't like asking the question as it's usually posed pretty flippantly and thusly largely ignored, but please know I don't mean it to sound flippant. Genuinely curious as I've never heard anyone answer it, at least not in a way that made any direct sense to me.


  • Options
    #827
    JohnathanM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 410 ✭✭JohnathanM


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I believe God will be able to see our motives and look to our hearts and minds as to what we really believe.

    Then by the same token He would be able to understand why those who do not believe, don't. Given that that lack of belief was entirely of His doing, then it could be argued that a firm atheism is as full of merit to Him as a firm belief in that you were true to His plan and could not behave any other way.


  • Options
    #828
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,191 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    liah wrote: »
    Fair enough, that makes sense, and I can relate to it despite my lack of belief.

    Do you have any theories as to why God created us with free will just to punish us if, while using our free will, we chose not to believe in him? I don't like asking the question as it's usually posed pretty flippantly and thusly largely ignored, but please know I don't mean it to sound flippant. Genuinely curious as I've never heard anyone answer it, at least not in a way that made any direct sense to me.

    +1, i am genuinely interested in a Christians POV here.

    I like how this thread has changed, i'm learning a lot instead of giving out a lot :P


  • Options
    #829
    liah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,750 ✭✭✭liah


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    +1, i am genuinely interested in a Christians POV here.

    I like how this thread has changed, i'm learning a lot instead of giving out a lot :P

    All it takes is stepping back a bit and letting the thread defuse :p

    Though just watch this thread get locked now that it's all tame again :pac:


  • Options
    #830
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    JohnathanM wrote: »
    Then by the same token He would be able to understand why those who do not believe, don't. Given that that lack of belief was entirely of His doing, then it could be argued that a firm atheism is as full of merit to Him as a firm belief in that you were true to His plan and could not behave any other way.

    That would only be the case if there was a good enough reason not to. As for whether you choose to lack belief, I don't see how this is his doing if it is your autonomy to choose.

    You could begin to take the Calvinist view that we actually really don't have free will and that God has preordained that you were to be an atheist from the beginning of time, but it certainly wouldn't be a position I'd hold.

    If you are to deny Him even when He has given you a means to salvation, there is no reason why He shouldn't deny you.

    It's kind of like if you are drowning in the Irish Sea and a lifeboat comes along and asks you if you would like to be brought to safety, and you refuse the help. You could be saved, but you choose not to be. One couldn't blame the people in the boat for being so callous to allow you to drown, as you yourself had refused to get on.


  • Options
    #831
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,191 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    erogonamalu wrote: »
    both the same keep people interested in life, keep mofos believing in something, excuse to piss all over your own species etc etc. both promise lots, eg a god no proof yet or science the saviour - a long way off there.

    ................


    what?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #832
    JohnathanM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 410 ✭✭JohnathanM


    Jakkass wrote: »
    That would only be the case if there was a good enough reason not to. As for whether you choose to lack belief, I don't see how this is his doing if it is your autonomy to choose.

    You could begin to take the Calvinist view that we actually really don't have free will and that God has preordained that you were to be an atheist from the beginning of time, but it certainly wouldn't be a position I'd hold.

    If you are to deny Him even when He has given you a means to salvation, there is no reason why He shouldn't deny you.

    It's kind of like if you are drowning in the Irish Sea and a lifeboat comes along and asks you if you would like to be brought to safety, and you refuse the help. You could be saved, but you choose not to be. One couldn't blame the people in the boat for being so callous to allow you to drown, as you yourself had refused to get on.

    I'm not sold on the notion of free will at all, but even accepting it things don't make sense. As I asked grizzly earlier, if we do accept free will how to we reconcile punishment with His omnipotence?

    I might be drowning by the cliffs and ignoring help, but He made me that way and knew full well that I was going to do it. He then punishes me for creating me as He did, and in doing so indicates that He is not perfect and, actually, not terribly nice.


  • Options
    #833
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    liah wrote: »
    Do you have any theories as to why God created us with free will just to punish us if, while using our free will, we chose not to believe in him? I don't like asking the question as it's usually posed pretty flippantly and thusly largely ignored, but please know I don't mean it to sound flippant. Genuinely curious as I've never heard anyone answer it, at least not in a way that made any direct sense to me.

    I sure do, but I don't know how good any of them are.

    I alternate between a few ideas. One would be that the reason that we are given free will would be so that we could love God out of our own desire rather than being forced to do so.
    Another would be that this universe is meant to serve as a testing ground where our characters are developed and tested to the point where we will be finally judged for what we have done.
    Another would be that this would be a means of God allowing us to see how much we truly trust Him to remain faithful to us.

    I'm sure if given adequate time I could come up with more. I wouldn't see the point of existence if we were ultimately machines with no will or sense of our own. The world as an automata wouldn't make much sense in terms of a creation.

    Yet surprisingly, many Christians do believe that the universe is an automata particularly if one believes in 5 point Calvinism.


  • Options
    #834
    Marcus.Aurelius
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭Marcus.Aurelius


    JohnathanM wrote: »
    I might be drowning by the cliffs and ignoring help, but He made me that way and knew full well that I was going to do it. He then punishes me for creating me as He did, and in doing so indicates that He is not perfect and, actually, not terribly nice.

    You don't have to fall off a cliff and drown to figure that out. Just read the Bible and see if it's the product of an omnicient mind.


  • Options
    #835
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,191 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I sure do, but I don't know how good any of them are.

    I alternate between a few ideas. One would be that the reason that we are given free will would be so that we could love God out of our own desire rather than being forced to do so.
    Another would be that this universe is meant to serve as a testing ground where our characters are developed and tested to the point where we will be finally judged for what we have done.
    Another would be that this would be a means of God allowing us to see how much we truly trust Him to remain faithful to us.

    I'm sure if given adequate time I could come up with more. I wouldn't see the point of existence if we were ultimately machines with no will or sense of our own. The world as an automata wouldn't make much sense in terms of a creation.

    Yet surprisingly, many Christians do believe that the universe is an automata particularly if one believes in 5 point Calvinism.

    I've got another question Jakkass:

    We are given a soul which makes us immortal beings correct? We have a physical body for X amount of years and then we spend an eternity in the "Afterlife".

    So, why is it that, as immortal beings, we are judged solely on our time on earth and the judgement does not continue into the afterlife.

    Afterall, you say people can change and should be forgiven if they really repent. What is to stop me from truely changing after i get to hell? Why can't i be forgiven then?


  • Options
    #836
    liah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,750 ✭✭✭liah


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I sure do, but I don't know how good any of them are.

    I alternate between a few ideas. One would be that the reason that we are given free will would be so that we could love God out of our own desire rather than being forced to do so.
    Another would be that this universe is meant to serve as a testing ground where our characters are developed and tested to the point where we will be finally judged for what we have done.
    Another would be that this would be a means of God allowing us to see how much we truly trust Him to remain faithful to us.

    I'm sure if given adequate time I could come up with more. I wouldn't see the point of existence if we were ultimately machines with no will or sense of our own. The world as an automata wouldn't make much sense in terms of a creation.

    Yet surprisingly, many Christians do believe that the universe is an automata particularly if one believes in 5 point Calvinism.

    Then how do you reconcile that with the fact that we are meant to be made in God's image? Or maybe a clarification of what that even means would be good, I really can't figure it out, since everything I've read indicates that God is perfect.


  • Options
    #837
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,191 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    Caesar Augustus wrote: »
    You don't have to fall off a cliff and drown to figure that out. Just read the Bible and see if it's the product of an omnicient mind.

    But The Bible was written by man, surely unworthy to answer such questions with their unomnicient minds!


  • Options
    #838
    Sisko
    Registered Users Posts: 2,910 ✭✭✭Sisko


    I'd like to know why 'god' is sexist and disallows female priests.





    Even though I already know the answer to this

    Religion is a man made tool used as a means of controlling populations and satisfying unanswerable questions. The gods of religion are all man made ideas and whether or not there is such a being/beings in this universe, mankind has yet to find out.


  • Options
    #839
    Marcus.Aurelius
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭Marcus.Aurelius


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    But The Bible was written by man, surely unworthy to answer such questions with their unomnicient minds!

    Well, Mohammad was illiterate but apparently the Koran is the word of God too. Surely the Bible should have some amazing science and future-proof morality, even if the syntax is a little odd.

    :pac:


  • Options
    #840
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    We are given a soul which makes us immortal beings correct? We have a physical body for X amount of years and then we spend an eternity in the "Afterlife".

    I think so. Most thinking about the how long the soul lasts is based on Paul in 1 Corinthians 15. Effectively he says that we are given a new body after death, and judgement. However, he only speaks in terms of believers. So it may be the case, that those who will not be saved will not be granted a new body. I.E - It's a subject for speculation rather than any means of certainty from the Bible itself.

    Other commentary such as Thomas Aquinas does more with the soul. It's fascinating but I wouldn't encourage it too much, because a lot of it is actually based on Aristotle's De Anima (On the Soul) rather than on the Bible.
    MrStuffins wrote: »
    So, why is it that, as immortal beings, we are judged solely on our time on earth and the judgement does not continue into the afterlife.

    We die and then there's judgement apparently. So this would lead me to think that time is up. Christian teaching says of Christians, that from the point of their acceptance of Christ they grow in holiness over time until the point of this resurrection into a new body.

    This is only speculation, not anything authoritative but I'm led to think that from that point on, our characters cannot develop any further than they have done already. If decay and ultimately death has ended, then the same may also be true of growth. If eternal life is perpetual and if growth in character is finite, it seems that there would be no further development. Again, it's about 90% likely that I am wrong but this is my thinking.
    MrStuffins wrote: »
    Afterall, you say people can change and should be forgiven if they really repent. What is to stop me from truely changing after i get to hell? Why can't i be forgiven then?

    People can change while they are on earth certainly. Whether or not this is true of the hereafter is certainly unknown.

    What I do know, is that I desire for you and all people to know the truth and at the very least have the opportunity to think about it. Mainly because I would wish for you what I found for me. Perhaps that is daft or absurd, but that's how I'm living.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #841
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,191 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I think so. Most thinking about the how long the soul lasts is based on Paul in 1 Corinthians 15. Effectively he says that we are given a new body after death, and judgement. However, he only speaks in terms of believers. So it may be the case, that those who will not be saved will not be granted a new body. I.E - It's a subject for speculation rather than any means of certainty from the Bible itself.

    Other commentary such as Thomas Aquinas does more with the soul. It's fascinating but I wouldn't encourage it too much, because a lot of it is actually based on Aristotle's De Anima (On the Soul) rather than on the Bible.



    We die and then there's judgement apparently. So this would lead me to think that time is up. Christian teaching says of Christians, that from the point of their acceptance of Christ they grow in holiness over time until the point of this resurrection into a new body.

    This is only speculation, not anything authoritative but I'm led to think that from that point on, our characters cannot develop any further than they have done already. If decay and ultimately death has ended, then the same may also be true of growth. If eternal life is perpetual and if growth in character is finite, it seems that there would be no further development. Again, it's about 90% likely that I am wrong but this is my thinking.



    People can change while they are on earth certainly. Whether or not this is true of the hereafter is certainly unknown.

    What I do know, is that I desire for you and all people to know the truth and at the very least have the opportunity to think about it. Mainly because I would wish for you what I found for me. Perhaps that is daft or absurd, but that's how I'm living.

    jakkass, i sincerely want to thank you for answering all the questions and giving me a great insight into the mind of a Christian/Creationist.

    Also, for your honesty in the fact that you don't seem to see your views as some sort of unbreakable authority and are open to seeing some as "theories".

    If all creationists were like you (and, in fact, athiests and the like) there would be noargument, but debate and sharing of knowledge and thoughts.


Advertisement