appeals/..........

AxlRose1992

Has anyone gotten a letter? Because I don't know anyone whose results changed on examinations.ie. Have they definitley been updated?

rainbowtrout

lallychops wrote: »

A properly considered and designed process that does not predominently rely upon the performance of the individuals that man that process is what is needed. To achieve this, an examinations board is imperative.

In my view, an aparrently wholly manual system that "catches most things" having built into it manual safeguards which include a conference review before any marking / corrections begin (I can only imagine the timelines for that one!) seems madenningly slow & archaic.

Because you have never been to a conference you have no idea what goes on there. If there was to be an examinations board comprised of people who were there to mark papers etc, they would not be teaching, regularly when we are debating acceptable answers at the conference you will hear teachers say 'that's not the way the student will phrase it, they will say....' and then we agree on accepted forms of an answer. You would not get this leeway with an exam board who do not teach. I can go into my classroom every September knowing how a student can answer a question and what will be accepted and what won't. It also allows teachers to give feedback on questions and come up with a whole range of answers that an exam board simply won't come up with themselves.

It's no different from lecturers at college or school inspectors coming in telling you how to teach when the reality is that they have never set foot in a classroom themselves. If you want your examination to be graded fairly you need to have teachers correcting it that are actively teaching or have taught the subject.

lallychops wrote: »

RE: Not releasing results on an individual basis
Sorry, I see no issue here. If an error on my paper has been identified and marking meaning I get an extra grade but I've appealed other papers then fair enough, I would not expect to be given my results until all my appeals are in. I do not however see why, if my results are complete I must spend another X amount of weeks doing a course I do not prefer just because a marking process is not completed for others.

So really what you are saying is you don't give a fcuk about the other students who have appealed and are awaiting results in the hope that they'll get another offer of a college place once you get what you want. That's not fair. You also don't have to do a course that you do not prefer. Nobody forces a student to accept an offer.

lallychops wrote: »

RE: The Customer is Not Always Right.
I must admit to being rather incredulous here. I honestly do not really see any relevance as to whether or not a marker / corrector is p1ssed off by being asked if a paper has been done yet. That marker is tasked with a job they signed up for. Whether or not it p1sses them off is between them and their employer, not the CUSTOMER.

Submitting a result and returning a paper to the SEC each time one is completed is not efficient work practice. It is far more efficient to correct a bundle of papers and return all of them together along with the marks. If you are given a week to complete a task, any task, it's not reasonable to expect someone to be harassing you every day to see how it's coming along, that's why you were given a week to do it in the first place.

lallychops wrote: »

Also, this moves to the point of a system, in this case where marks / results should be electronically submitted. And oh, if this would not work then please explain such facilities as the CAO online system, even the LAN at university ? A cohesive, electronic system that gives visibility and traceability is a must.

With regard to payment. The taking and marking of an examination is a paid process, whether or not we pay individually for the whole amount or not (the rest being paid for by taxation), thus it takes the form of a contract. Ironically a kindof "shove it up yer ass if you dare ask wtf takes so long" kind. It's still a contract and as payment has been taken, for whatever part of it, I, on the CUSTOMER side of this contract should to be entitled to an efficient service. Making points about the WHOLE system takes 5+ weeks, not just YOUR paper simply enforces my point that the system is flawed.

You are also assuming that every teacher is computer literate. Not every teacher is. You are also assuming that every teacher has a computer, and I'm sure there are some who do not. That is what would have to be in place for results to be submitted electronically. In a university students and lecturers have computer access. For the CAO, students still have the option of submitting applications on paper if they want to, and students do not have to have a computer at home, they can use the ones in school. Exams are corrected in teachers homes, so the SEC would have to ensure that each teacher had a computer and was computer literate. You would also be looking to set up thousands of profiles to allow correctors submit results. There is a huge turnover of teachers in the corrections. Quite a bit of work there. Could also cause confidentiality issues, shared computers, lost passwords etc.

lallychops wrote: »

With regard to payment. The taking and marking of an examination is a paid process, whether or not we pay individually for the whole amount or not (the rest being paid for by taxation), thus it takes the form of a contract. Ironically a kindof "shove it up yer ass if you dare ask wtf takes so long" kind. It's still a contract and as payment has been taken, for whatever part of it, I, on the CUSTOMER side of this contract should to be entitled to an efficient service. Making points about the WHOLE system takes 5+ weeks, not just YOUR paper simply enforces my point that the system is flawed.

I think it's been pointed out why the system of appeals takes 5 weeks but you don't seem to be interested in equality or fairness, just what benefits you, the individual.

lallychops

fairness...

Quotas of grades...cut off points for the amount of a grades given etc.....is that fair?

Not enough university places for the amount of people who take the leaving cert....is that fair?

The points race.....crushing peoples hopes etc only being 5 points away from courses they have always wanted....and once appealing there is no change because the quota of grades has been filled.....(as has happened with people I know).....is that fair?

The fact that they say we can do whatever we want in life if we work hard enough......not in our system...clearly.....we are only as good as the system wants us to be on the day.....is that fair?

The leaving cert is the result of two years (granted not for all people) hard work and determination and it comes down to one paper...one day....three hours..you have a bad day...something happens......and it's all wasted...granted there is a system in place for these occurrnces however nerves aren't accounted for......is this fair?

If we are unhappy with our overall performance we have to reatake re exams next year as opposed to just a few months.... Not to mention some curriculums change every few years.....is this fair?

The fact that acceptance to universities in other countries actually value personal traits and skills as opposed to results of one exam....is this fair?

Clearly I don't care about fairness....maybe I am out for myself and at the end of the day who isn't......you take what I say personally...as if you created this system and are taking offence to my opinion and issues with it.....I feel for this years leaving certs...if they work hard and do everything in their power to give back the information and play the system....if the grade quota is full they can kiss their dream goodbye for the immediate future...and if as you say they choose not to take the place....what is their viable alternative? Take a year out...may not be financially viable....repeat next year?? Go through it all again?..They face a difficult challenge....but as one comes to realise life isn't fair.....

ihavequestions

Waheey my English went up 2 grades

lallychops

ihavequestions wrote: »

Waheey my English went up 2 grades

congrats

rainbowtrout

lallychops wrote: »

Quotas of grades...cut off points for the amount of a grades given etc.....is that fair?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grading_on_a_curve

Grading on a curve is quite common and not just confined to the Leaving Cert or the Irish educational system. If half of all people who sat English this year got an A, it would not reflect that everyone was of an A standard, it would more likely reflect that the paper set was considerably easier than previous years. Same issue if there is a massive failure rate. Grading on a curve is used for consistency within a population.

lallychops wrote: »

Not enough university places for the amount of people who take the leaving cert....is that fair?

Not everyone who does the Leaving Cert is capable of university level study. Allowing everyone go on to third level doesn't make sense. Universities end up with massive failure or drop out rates or they dumb down their courses so the students they've taken in can pass. I notice that the degree I did 10 years ago requires a student to complete only 5 modules per semester now, where as when I was there it was 6. That quite a number of module cut out of the degree yet the same qualification is being awarded.

lallychops wrote: »

The points race.....crushing peoples hopes etc only being 5 points away from courses they have always wanted....and once appealing there is no change because the quota of grades has been filled.....(as has happened with people I know).....is that fair?

Appeals are not based on the quota. You've just made that up because it sounds good. If they were, there would be no point in the appeals. Students appeal grades every year without having a clue what they are talking about. I read several feedback forms from students this year who think they deserve marks for a question because 'they think it's right' when it's not factually correct and not in the marking scheme in any format.

lallychops wrote: »

The fact that they say we can do whatever we want in life if we work hard enough......not in our system...clearly.....we are only as good as the system wants us to be on the day.....is that fair?

There are other ways to get where you want to go if you are willing to take them, but a lot of students today are only interested in instant gratification. Life is competitive, you don't always get what you want whether it be in the Leaving Cert or elsewhere.

lallychops wrote: »

The leaving cert is the result of two years (granted not for all people) hard work and determination and it comes down to one paper...one day....three hours..you have a bad day...something happens......and it's all wasted...granted there is a system in place for these occurrnces however nerves aren't accounted for......is this fair?

You could say the same about the Olympic Games. And those athletes train for far longer. Do you think Sonia O'Sullivan thought it was fair that she had a crap day in the final of the 5000m in Atlanta ... maybe they should have re-run the race for her.

You're going to be in a lot of situations in life where you only get one chance to get something right and if you don't get it right that time you mightn't get the chance again for quite some time.

lallychops wrote: »

If we are unhappy with our overall performance we have to reatake re exams next year as opposed to just a few months.... Not to mention some curriculums change every few years.....is this fair?

Next years exams are already set. You can find all that information on examinations.ie if you are bothered. There's more to the exam process than just throwing a repeat exam together. Do you think it would make a difference if say you got to repeat this October? You still wouldn't be able to start college until next September. The way our school year is structured doesn't allow for it anyway.

You're looking for more instant gratification. You also have to wait for a lot of things in life. The world doesn't revolve around the Leaving Cert, but you seem to be under the impression that it does. Should the SEC preparations for next years cohort on hold for those that want to repeat?

lallychops wrote: »

The fact that acceptance to universities in other countries actually value personal traits and skills as opposed to results of one exam....is this fair?

It probably isn't but it's the system that we have in Ireland. All systems have their flaws. And while our system does not take personal statements into account, there is no bias in it either, if you get the points, you're in. It doesn't matter where you are from and what extra-curricular activities you are involved in.

lallychops wrote: »

Clearly I don't care about fairness....maybe I am out for myself and at the end of the day who isn't......you take what I say personally...as if you created this system and are taking offence to my opinion and issues with it.....I feel for this years leaving certs...if they work hard and do everything in their power to give back the information and play the system....if the grade quota is full they can kiss their dream goodbye for the immediate future...and if as you say they choose not to take the place....what is their viable alternative? Take a year out...may not be financially viable....repeat next year?? Go through it all again?..They face a difficult challenge....but as one comes to realise life isn't fair.....

I'm not taking your opinions personally, I didn't create the system, but I do an awful lot of work within the exam system so I am giving you the view from the other side, which you seem to have missed.

Taking a year out doesn't have to involve trekking around the world, it can be working locally or doing a Post Leaving Cert course. I have heard few students ever say that taking a year out is not financially viable. College costs money, with or without the grant. Getting in and out of the second and third level education system shouldn't be a race. It's hard to see that in Leaving Cert though. If a student wants a course badly enough and is certain that a career in a particular area is really what they want for their longterm future then a year extra shouldn't make much difference in the general scheme of things. You'll be working long enough... if there are any jobs when you graduate.

Radley90

ihavequestions wrote: »

Waheey my English went up 2 grades

Did u find out from the SEC website or did u get a letter? Also congrats

JayEnnis

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Please don't quote long posts unnecessarily! - RLH

Woah calm down mister, no need to respond to every reply in the thread.

lallychops

@rainbowtrout

You clearly think that this system works and you appear to want to do everything in your power to prove me wrong. For your information the reason I appealed as not because I thought ibwas right......it was because I was advised to appeal due to the fact that it was not marked according to the way the marking scheme was laid out.

My points previously were to highlight the fact that I do care about fairness and other students which you seemed to dispute. I see no point in what ibwould consder debating (which some may consider arguing) with anyone who wishes to take arguments personally to the point of using language which is less than pleasant whilst saying that I honestly do not care about my fellow students or the fairness of the system.

I appreciate some of your points and while it is clear you don't agree with mine I hope you gained something from the views of someone on the other side of the fence.

implausible

lallychops wrote: »

@rainbowtrout

You clearly think that this system works and you appear to want to do everything in your power to prove me wrong. For your information the reason I appealed as not because I thought ibwas right......it was because I was advised to appeal due to the fact that it was not marked according to the way the marking scheme was laid out.

Look, it does work, but unfortunately, it's based on people and people make mistakes. There will always have to be scope for human error. You have been dreadfully unlucky from what I've read, but yours is not the typical experience. The phrase 'hard cases make poor law' springs to mind and the system cannot operate on the assumption that a tiny percentage of students may be inconvenienced in starting college because they were marginally off the points required. What we have in Ireland is a system reliant on people (the marking) and technology (CAO) to determine entrance to college. There is always going to be error, no system is perfect and with the economy the way it is, it's not going to change any time soon.

Anyway, did you get your upgrade?

lallychops

deemark wrote: »

Look, it does work, but unfortunately, it's based on people and people make mistakes. There will always have to be scope for human error. You have been dreadfully unlucky from what I've read, but yours is not the typical experience. The phrase 'hard cases make poor law' springs to mind and the system cannot operate on the assumption that a tiny percentage of students may be inconvenienced in starting college because they were marginally off the points required. What we have in Ireland is a system reliant on people (the marking) and technology (CAO) to determine entrance to college. There is always going to be error, no system is perfect and with the economy the way it is, it's not going to change any time soon.

Anyway, did you get your upgrade?

I know it's not perfect. Nothing can be. Just that I'm very very frustrated by the entire thing. Didn't get the upgrade after all that. 40 euro down but more importantly was looking for those few extra points. Oh well.In the past now anyway. Nothingni can do about it. Just hate to see other people go through this if it turns out wrong. Anyone who got the upgrade clearly deserved it.

TimeToShine

Maths A2 to A1 English B1 to A1...got offered my 1st but I really couldn't be arsed switching at this stage.

rainbowtrout

JayEnnis wrote: »

Woah calm down mister, no need to respond to every reply in the thread.

Myself and lallychops are having a bit of a debate. Any objections???... It's miss by the way.

lallychops wrote: »

@rainbowtrout

You clearly think that this system works and you appear to want to do everything in your power to prove me wrong. For your information the reason I appealed as not because I thought ibwas right......it was because I was advised to appeal due to the fact that it was not marked according to the way the marking scheme was laid out.

My points previously were to highlight the fact that I do care about fairness and other students which you seemed to dispute. I see no point in what ibwould consder debating (which some may consider arguing) with anyone who wishes to take arguments personally to the point of using language which is less than pleasant whilst saying that I honestly do not care about my fellow students or the fairness of the system.

I appreciate some of your points and while it is clear you don't agree with mine I hope you gained something from the views of someone on the other side of the fence.

I'm not trying to prove you wrong, just coming at it from a different perspective. You see it from a student's point of view and me from a teacher/examiner point of view. The system has it's flaws but there are more flaws in the system than the ones you perceive, but they are not ones a student can see. I have my gripes as an examiner but it's not about the same things that you have gripes about.

I teach Leaving Certs every year. I attend the review weekend every September and look at papers with students. I see the frustration in their faces when they see how their paper (ag science) has been marked, or annoyance when they realise that the examiner was not at fault. I am frustrated when I see a poorly marked paper because my students paper was corrected by someone who didn't do my student justice. This is rare though. I also know that it was one of the examiners that was at my conference and it annoys me because while I don't know which one it was, I know them all personally. I hate having to tell a student (not one of my own) that the C1 they got in ag science was not because their paper was marked badly but because they could have only got a C in the project and their teacher told them they got an A, or that their grade in their project was possibly brought down by an external examiner and there's nothing they can do about it and no appeal on the written paper will change things and they won't get the 5 points they need for their first choice course. They don't understand why it will take five weeks to get their result back if they appeal it and they don't see what is going on in the background. I am annoyed on behalf of the student whose appeal I am correcting when I see that their paper was poorly corrected (again a very small number of papers) and they deserved more. I am also delighted when I see that they gain enough marks to bring them up a grade and know that they will hopefully be happy with that five extra points and it will get them what they want. I also remember that the teacher that made the mistake is the same as me and is human and had 400 of those papers to correct and due to human error can make a mistake.

lallychops

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Myself and lallychops are having a bit of a debate. Any objections???... It's miss by the way.



I'm not trying to prove you wrong, just coming at it from a different perspective. You see it from a student's point of view and me from a teacher/examiner point of view. The system has it's flaws but there are more flaws in the system than the ones you perceive, but they are not ones a student can see. I have my gripes as an examiner but it's not about the same things that you have gripes about.

I teach Leaving Certs every year. I attend the review weekend every September and look at papers with students. I see the frustration in their faces when they see how their paper (ag science) has been marked, or annoyance when they realise that the examiner was not at fault. I am frustrated when I see a poorly marked paper because my students paper was corrected by someone who didn't do my student justice. This is rare though. I also know that it was one of the examiners that was at my conference and it annoys me because while I don't know which one it was, I know them all personally. I hate having to tell a student (not one of my own) that the C1 they got in ag science was not because their paper was marked badly but because they could have only got a C in the project and their teacher told them they got an A, or that their grade in their project was possibly brought down by an external examiner and there's nothing they can do about it and no appeal on the written paper will change things and they won't get the 5 points they need for their first choice course. They don't understand why it will take five weeks to get their result back if they appeal it and they don't see what is going on in the background. I am annoyed on behalf of the student whose appeal I am correcting when I see that their paper was poorly corrected (again a very small number of papers) and they deserved more. I am also delighted when I see that they gain enough marks to bring them up a grade and know that they will hopefully be happy with that five extra points and it will get them what they want. I also remember that the teacher that made the mistake is the same as me and is human and had 400 of those papers to correct and due to human error can make a mistake.

Agreed.I do believe that you clearly care about students.shame someone with your attitude don't correct my paper the first time. I'd be the first to put my hands up and go ok yeah...my fault...problem is it wasn't

Liveit

Got upgraded and now i got my course , too late to start now i think but its nice to know its there for me

ihavequestions

Radley90 wrote: »

Did u find out from the SEC website or did u get a letter? Also congrats

The school I was in rang me! And I collected the appeal thing today!

JayEnnis

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Please don't quote long posts unnecessarily! - RLH

Well maybe take it to Pm's, It's clogging the thread up and frankly the majority of people reading this thread want to know how each other got on with the appeals.

Maybe_Memories

Didn't go up in HL Maths.
Still an A2, despite being 1 mark from an A1.
Oh well. I'm beyond caring.

randylonghorn

JayEnnis wrote: »

Well maybe take it to Pm's, It's clogging the thread up and frankly the majority of people reading this thread want to know how each other got on with the appeals.

And frankly, the title of the thread is "Appeals", and the discussion is relevant.

Please don't back-seat moderate.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

randylonghorn wrote: »

And frankly, the title of the thread is "Appeals", and the discussion is relevant.

Please don't back-seat moderate.

Yes but it was aimed at students that appealed to share whether or not they got an upgrade, not a discussion to decide whether the appeals process is ridiculous or not. Outside of the 3 that were arguing I dont think anyone else cared about ye're frivolous discussion. There is an off-topic thread which I thought would have been more suitable.

randylonghorn

THFC wrote: »

Yes but it was aimed at students that appealed to share whether or not they got an upgrade, not a discussion to decide whether the appeals process is ridiculous or not. Outside of the 3 that were arguing I dont think anyone else cared about ye're frivolous discussion. There is an off-topic thread which I thought would have been more suitable.

randylonghorn wrote: »

Please don't back-seat moderate.

If I have to repeat myself again, it will come with a red card.

Final warning.

muffinz

geography didnt go up >;[ I only needed 4 marks!!!!

Was talking to one of my teachers, she said that out of ALL of the subjects that got rechecked, only 1 persons grade went up! And that girl was told to not bother rechecking it because it was most likely not going to go up. I know the girl and she did **** all work for 2 years! I worked my ass off for geography, but nada..

Greedy bastards just wanted to keep our 45 euro, make some profits!:mad:

dynamot

has anyone who got upgraded received their refund yet?

rainbowtrout

muffinz wrote: »

geography didnt go up >;[ I only needed 4 marks!!!!

Was talking to one of my teachers, she said that out of ALL of the subjects that got rechecked, only 1 persons grade went up! And that girl was told to not bother rechecking it because it was most likely not going to go up. I know the girl and she did **** all work for 2 years! I worked my ass off for geography, but nada..

Greedy bastards just wanted to keep our 45 euro, make some profits!:mad:

Have you considered the possibility that your paper was corrected properly the first time and you didn't deserve any more marks.

A lot of people seem to equate 'appeal' with 'automatic upgrade'

Liveit

dynamot wrote: »

has anyone who got upgraded received their refund yet?

Nope, suppose we have to ask for it?

dynamot

Liveit wrote: »

Nope, suppose we have to ask for it?

I found out today that the sec send it in the post.

muffinz

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Have you considered the possibility that your paper was corrected properly the first time and you didn't deserve any more marks.

A lot of people seem to equate 'appeal' with 'automatic upgrade'

Im hardly going to spend 45 euro on something if its not worth it not am i? had it checked by 2 of my teachers and they both said i should definatley get it checked...

rainbowtrout

muffinz wrote: »

Im hardly going to spend 45 euro on something if its not worth it not am i? had it checked by 2 of my teachers and they both said i should definatley get it checked...

The key to knowing if you will have a successful appeal is having a teacher check over it that is familiar with the marking process and knowing from the marking scheme what will be upgraded and what won't.

Plenty of teachers are good teachers and well qualified but some never correct exams so when they check over papers for students they see answers they would give marks for, but what they will accept and what is accepted at the marking conference could be two completely different things.

I view appeals every year in ag science and I correct ag science so I know from looking at a students answers what will be accepted. Often they are adamant that they will get marks and I know they won't. I've seen students stubbornly send back papers and then come back and say they got no upgrade. Very few of my own send back papers unless I tell them they'll get the upgrade. It saves them the €40 at the very least.

There is a business teacher in the school I work in and I've watched her go through exams with students for a variety of different students. She's unbelieveable and can find stuff in papers that will get marks and had 'got it' when it comes to interpreting marking schemes in any subject. If I was a student I would take her to the appeals viewing regardless of what the subject was.