Pull Outs

mmaireland.com

On the one hand this is a bit of a rant, on the other I'm curious...

In the last five years or so, we've pulled out on around 3 fights due to injury. Three. I realise that I'm putting a curse on myself by saying this but we've had up to 8 fighters on a single card and not pulled out due to training injuries. Now, I know they can happen. I keep hearing from promoters and coaches that it's "part of the game"... but....

One of our fighters has had FOUR opponents in a row pull on him recently - he didn't get to fight in the end. Another had three pull on him on one show, he didn't get to fight. So, six months later we finally get him a match on another show. He goes into training and, guess what, that fighter pulled! Again, no fight. That's just two examples but to be honest - it's pretty typical.

This morning another three fights pulled. So, as much as I hear that it's part of the game - we put training and booking practices in place to minimise the risk of pull out. This means we've pulled three at most in five years.

Promoters - what safeguards are being used to minimise pull out risk? Hearing a constant "that's part of the game" doesn't cut it really. There are booking practices and "lessons learned" that can come into play surely?

Coaches - what are practices are being used to to minimise the risk that, when a fighter is booked, he doesn't then overtrain/undertrain/overbook and get injured?

Three fights pulled on us in the last two days alone. It's crazy!

So, yes - this is a rant but it's also a serious question. I'm stunned by the number of promoters that keep telling me "there's nothing we can do about it" or "you know how it is". Yes, I know how it is, that's why we have measures to both protect and prepare our fighters.

What are other gyms and promoters doing to protect themselves against pull outs and their fighters from overtraining/overbooking?

cowzerp

Shane, seriously-what do you do to prevent injuries, genuinely interested as apart from basic cop on in training i dont have any special ways, and what do you reccomend/think promoters can do? they don't have any control of what goes on with individuals...

I understand the frustrations with this. Around this time last year I was supposed to be fighting on the Saturday night, and I'm there on the Wednesday, well into the water trick stage of my weight cut and out of the blue I get a call to tell me that my opponent pulled out with a last minute training injury and a new one couldn't be found on short notice. It was incredibly frustrating. Luckily, the wed was my birthday so I could compensate by having some cake, and I had a fight 2 weeks later anyway so it worked out ok.

From my point of view, there are 2 kinds of injuries you can get - impact ones and overuse ones. The impact ones are your broken bones, twisted ankles etc, that you can be unfortunate enough to pick up during a heavy session. There really isn't a whole lot you can do about these short of going lighter in training, which isn't really an option.

The other kind, the overuse injury comes from not giving yourself ample recovery time and/or over training. This is where management comes in. You need to know when a day off training is more beneficial than another hard session.

Last year at Next Gen, we had a stupid amount of fights cancelled within the last 2 weeks of camp. It really sucks for any fighters when all of the hard work is done and the sacrifices have been made, and it's all for nothing.

Barry.Oglesby

What can promoters do?

Not much I think. You sort of have to take it on good faith that people will show. I don't book certain gyms on my cards though. It's probably not malicious but they seem to pull more often than not so a few gyms are on my brownlist, I just won't book them on my show and I'm wary about matching one of my fighters with one of their's.

What can gyms do?

Well maybe start by changing the answering machine message from "Yes we'll take it leave the details" BEEEEP! to something else. The attitude seems to be "ah sure we can just pull out if it doesn't suit us". Last year on my Christmas show I had 24 fighters of whom 13... yes... 13, pulled out, 8 of whom pulled in the last week before the fights.

DJKendo

when I saw the thread title I was sure you put it in here by an accident, thinking you were writing in Personal Issues

Pontificatus

DJKendo wrote: »

Aw man, dont be spreading El tren like that.

Quadsey

What about a name and shame type list. On another forum i use there is a 'buy and sell' section, because they are all private sales there are user review threads started which are filled in if that person buys or sells anything. Could something similar not be done on here, either at a club level or if wanted/needed at fighter level. If a guy pulls out of a fight the promoter or opponant fills out a section in the thread with facts, no rants or bashing just a simple 'Pulled out of fight with 1 weeks notice due to injury' or something like that. If the thread for each fighter consists solely of times he/she has pulled out of a fight and no general talking or discussion of why the person pulled out it could be a useful source of info on fighters/clubs tendencies to pull out or no show.

Chris89

Quadsey wrote: »

What about a name and shame type list. On another forum i use there is a 'buy and sell' section, because they are all private sales there are user review threads started which are filled in if that person buys or sells anything. Could something similar not be done on here, either at a club level or if wanted/needed at fighter level. If a guy pulls out of a fight the promoter or opponant fills out a section in the thread with facts, no rants or bashing just a simple 'Pulled out of fight with 1 weeks notice due to injury' or something like that. If the thread for each fighter consists solely of times he/she has pulled out of a fight and no general talking or discussion of why the person pulled out it could be a useful source of info on fighters/clubs tendencies to pull out or no show.

I am not involved in any way in coaching or promoting but that in my opinion is a terribly crap idea.

Raze_them_all

It is and can be abused quite easily.

roo1981

The name and shame thing goes on a lot over on the Cagewarriors forum. I personally don’t think it’s the best way to go about it, but in fairness to the promoters that do it, they normally only put it out if the fighter completely pulls the piss (i.e. pulls out on the night or just doesn’t turn up or such like).

It does give the fighter a chance to respond, albeit publically...but a lot of the threads tend to get messy. At the end of the day, injuries happen, and some people are more prone to them than others. I'd imagine the more serious ones would be more common in the last few weeks leading up to a fight as the training cycle and sparring ramps up, so having fighters have to defend themselves in a public forum, especially with most of the shows over here being small (not being smart here) just seems a bit off to me.

I can see promoters are in a jam but the only constructive advice I can think of would be to maybe setup a private forum specifically for promoters and coaches (and maybe fighters) with a calendar of shows for the year, to give them the option of discussing matchmaking, active fighters, blacklists, prevent double bookings (i.e. fighters fighting for two different shows in two weeks) etc in private.

GSPfan

I wonder if weight cutting is a big factor. Whether there is too much weight being dropped and the body is getting injured or else the weight is not coming off and the fighter finds it easy to say they are injured instead of saying they are too fat for the weight class and they ****ed up the weight cut.

Fozzy

Can the nature of the pull outs be known for sure? If they're genuine injuries then it could be just a run of bad luck. If they're pulling out because they're not fully committed to participating in a fight then there are some things that could be done I think

Jason McCabe

This Shane, to be honest is a promoters biggest bug bear.

If I knew how to prevent it, it would not happen.

Basically I think it goes back to the coaches either putting people up for fights they aren't ready for and getting the last minute $hits.

Or letting fighters spar too close to the fight. let's be honest the last 2 weeks before a fight you should not be going 100%. If you are, you haven't prepared properly.

Our fighters get a week off before a fight. All they do is cut.


People in the gym do let you down, but you learn.

bilbo79

Always wear protection, saves having to pull out!
Safety 1st

kid chaos

bilbo79 wrote: »

Always wear protection, saves having to pull out!
Safety 1st

HA!

HellsAngel

mmaireland.com wrote: »

On the one hand this is a bit of a rant, on the other I'm curious...

In the last five years or so, we've pulled out on around 3 fights due to injury. Three. I realise that I'm putting a curse on myself by saying this but we've had up to 8 fighters on a single card and not pulled out due to training injuries. Now, I know they can happen. I keep hearing from promoters and coaches that it's "part of the game"... but....

One of our fighters has had FOUR opponents in a row pull on him recently - he didn't get to fight in the end. Another had three pull on him on one show, he didn't get to fight. So, six months later we finally get him a match on another show. He goes into training and, guess what, that fighter pulled! Again, no fight. That's just two examples but to be honest - it's pretty typical.

This morning another three fights pulled. So, as much as I hear that it's part of the game - we put training and booking practices in place to minimise the risk of pull out. This means we've pulled three at most in five years.

Promoters - what safeguards are being used to minimise pull out risk? Hearing a constant "that's part of the game" doesn't cut it really. There are booking practices and "lessons learned" that can come into play surely?

Coaches - what are practices are being used to to minimise the risk that, when a fighter is booked, he doesn't then overtrain/undertrain/overbook and get injured?

Three fights pulled on us in the last two days alone. It's crazy!

So, yes - this is a rant but it's also a serious question. I'm stunned by the number of promoters that keep telling me "there's nothing we can do about it" or "you know how it is". Yes, I know how it is, that's why we have measures to both protect and prepare our fighters.

What are other gyms and promoters doing to protect themselves against pull outs and their fighters from overtraining/overbooking?

I've neevr been a promoter so forgive me for this lay mans comment but......Maybe if a fighter or promoter accepts a fight he has to pay a deposit which will be refunded 100% - after the fight ?

dunkamania

That would penalise competitors who pull out with legitamite injuries

Raze_them_all

dunkamania wrote: »

That would penalise competitors who pull out with legitamite injuries

Plus no start up companies would get going. Imagine if another John Ferguson came along, well lads, I've not done any mma before or been part of a gym, but I plan on running a 20 fight show, Can I get 40 lads to send me a deposit of 20-40 quid to fight on it?? Sound lads.

Quadsey

Chris89 wrote: »

I am not involved in any way in coaching or promoting but that in my opinion is a terribly crap idea.

Why post something like this unless you plan to elaborate on why its a terribly crap idea. Enlighten me, its only a suggestion i put forward so i wont get to offended when you show me the error of my ways.

John Ferguson

Raze_them_all wrote: »

Plus no start up companies would get going. Imagine if another John Ferguson came along, well lads, I've not done any mma before or been part of a gym, but I plan on running a 20 fight show, Can I get 40 lads to send me a deposit of 20-40 quid to fight on it?? Sound lads.

Ahem Ahem...... I'm not sure I like the comparison there Ray lol

Pull outs are the biggest pain in the promotional backside!! At CC6 in Manchester we had 17.... yes you did read it correct 17 pullouts. Lol Poor Decky Dalton had 7 changes for his fight (I got his final replacement at 1am the Friday of the weigh in)

I had a simlar chat about safeguarding fighters and promoters with a few coaches a couple of weeks ago.

My point was because there have been times over the last number of months (mainly in the uk) where fighters haven't been paid or shows have been cancelled last minute due to poor ticket sales that maybe it would be an idea that promoters should have to deposit purses to a third party account 4 weeks before the event. At that stage if the fighters have done hard work then there is a problem they still get paid what is due to them

Raze_them_all

fightie wrote: »

Ahem Ahem...... I'm not sure I like the comparison there Ray lol

Pull outs are the biggest pain in the promotional backside!! At CC6 in Manchester we had 17.... yes you did read it correct 17 pullouts. Lol Poor Decky Dalton had 7 changes for his fight (I got his final replacement at 1am the Friday of the weigh in)

I had a simlar chat about safeguarding fighters and promoters with a few coaches a couple of weeks ago.

My point was because there have been times over the last number of months (mainly in the uk) where fighters haven't been paid or shows have been cancelled last minute due to poor ticket sales that maybe it would be an idea that promoters should have to deposit purses to a third party account 4 weeks before the event. At that stage if the fighters have done hard work then there is a problem they still get paid what is due to them

Lol it wasn't meant in a bad way John sorry, I was merely trying to point out how difficult iot can be for start up promotions to start up as you yourself can atest to, could you imagine if you came on here the first time looking for money to secure a place on your card?

Fighters and promoters have to trust each other enough as it is without bringing in money to guarantee you showing up. I've pulled from one fight ever on short notice which still doesn't sit well with me to this day.

If a fighter pulls from 1 fight thats unlucky but if it happens 2-3 times a year you'd have to wonder if you want someone that unpredictable on yer show

Chris89

Quadsey wrote: »

Why post something like this unless you plan to elaborate on why its a terribly crap idea. Enlighten me, its only a suggestion i put forward so i wont get to offended when you show me the error of my ways.

The issue of pull outs is one between fighters/clubs and promoters. The regular documentation of same should have no place on a public forum in my Ppinion.

Naming and shaming, if I break a finger, sprain a wrist, come down with a flu, why should I be shamed?

Quadsey

Chris89 wrote: »

The issue of pull outs is one between fighters/clubs and promoters. The regular documentation of same should have no place on a public forum in my Ppinion.

Naming and shaming, if I break a finger, sprain a wrist, come down with a flu, why should I be shamed?

surely there could be a sub forum set up which would be moderated to stop off topic banter or fighter bashing, which would be just for promoters and coaches etc. I don't think each thread should become a debate or back and fourth between fighters and promoters, it should simply state the facts. Like amount of notice given before pull out, reason for pull out, etc.
There is no shame in a genuine injury but if someone pulls out due to injury or sickness 2 or 3 times in a year there name should be out there as a possible treat to the smooth running of a show for promoters or coaches to know whether or not a person is reliable.

dunkamania

A lot of work, plus potentially libelous, when i am pretty sure, that coaches already call other coaches to make sure a promoter thay havent worked with is on the level. Similarly, a club that pulls fighters constantly, will find that word gets around fairly quickly.

HellsAngel

dunkamania wrote: »

That would penalise competitors who pull out with legitamite injuries

Well their could be an independent third party as has been suggested, lets say an Irish MMA Council or whatever, that could hold the deposit of the fighter/promoter and appoint an independent doctor or physio or whatever to determine if the fighter was spoofing or not ? If he's spoofing he loses his deposit. Simples.

Raze_them_all wrote: »

Plus no start up companies would get going. Imagine if another John Ferguson came along, well lads, I've not done any mma before or been part of a gym, but I plan on running a 20 fight show, Can I get 40 lads to send me a deposit of 20-40 quid to fight on it?? Sound lads.

Ahhh, the world isn't perfect unfortunately. Then start up companies could have to run the risk of no deposit given to a third party before a fight and would unfortunately attract the 'fighters' who seem to have a record of pull outs before the fight. Maybe as the start up company ran more and more successful fights they could then introduce the deposit idea. Tough but that's life. If you can think up of something better be my guest.

HellsAngel

Chris89 wrote: »

The issue of pull outs is one between fighters/clubs and promoters. The regular documentation of same should have no place on a public forum in my Ppinion.

Naming and shaming, if I break a finger, sprain a wrist, come down with a flu, why should I be shamed?

No it's not just between fighters/clubs and promoters. If people are paying money and travelling long distances to see a fight and staying overnight ( I will be in Belfast for CageContenders ) then Mr Public has a right to know if a so called 'fighter' has a history of this behaviour and should be named and shamed. If he is genuine e.g. once a year, he has nothing to worry about. If he is a BSer who should be exposed, then so be it.

A few years ago I went down to Galway to see an English kickboxer take on Wexford's Sean Collier. The Galway promoters had paid the English guy's flight, accomadation etc only for him to not turn up. Not at all fair on the promoter ( Pete Foley I think ) or the public like me.

John Ferguson

HellsAngel wrote: »

If you can think up of something better be my guest.

How about leaving it to the people involved to sort out

Most coaches and promoters speak to each other very very regularly, we know who has reputations for not turning up, not making weight etc and most of us act accordingly.

Some of us have contracts in place for each event that cover these issues too, while pull outs are a total pain, I don't think trying to put the world to rights on here will have any bearing on it stopping or not.

JF

Chris89

HellsAngel wrote: »

No it's not just between fighters/clubs and promoters. If people are paying money and travelling long distances to see a fight and staying overnight ( I will be in Belfast for CageContenders ) then Mr Public has a right to know if a so called 'fighter' has a history of this behaviour and should be named and shamed. If he is genuine e.g. once a year, he has nothing to worry about. If he is a BSer who should be exposed, then so be it.

As mentioned before, if a particular club or fighter is casing problems surely promoters will blacklist them or similar.

I hope you and your little inverted commas have a great trip to Belfast.

HellsAngel

fightie wrote: »

How about leaving it to the people involved to sort out:D

Most coaches and promoters speak to each other very very regularly, we know who has reputations for not turning up, not making weight etc and most of us act accordingly.

Some of us have contracts in place for each event that cover these issues too, while pull outs are a total pain, I don't think trying to put the world to rights on here will have any bearing on it stopping or not.

JF

My comment in post #25 was to Raze_them_all and not promoters in general ( I'm on their side as through trying to organise non profit motorbike events I know a little thing or two about promises and pull outs. )

" How about leaving it to the people involved to sort out .......I don't think trying to put the world to rights on here will have any bearing on it stopping or not. " Boards.ie is an internet discussion forum for members of the public to give their opinions, this is not for only " the people involved " in MMA promotion/fighting to discuss. I'm just trying to give a little input that may in some way be helpful to the future of this great sport in Ireland.

HellsAngel

Chris89 wrote: »

As mentioned before, if a particular club or fighter is casing problems surely promoters will blacklist them or similar.

I hope you and your little inverted commas have a great trip to Belfast.

Glad you like my little inverted commas and I will indeed have a great trip to Belfast as it's a good old city with some good pubs, nice chicks and hopefully a good night's MMA if their isn't too many pulls outs by some 'fighters'.

Chris89

HellsAngel wrote: »

Glad you like my little inverted commas and I will indeed have a great trip to Belfast as it's a good old city with some good pubs, nice chicks and hopefully a good night's MMA if their isn't too many pulls outs by some 'fighters'.

'chicks'

Raze_them_all

HellsAngel wrote: »

Well their could be an independent third party as has been suggested, lets say an Irish MMA Council or whatever, that could hold the deposit of the fighter/promoter and appoint an independent doctor or physio or whatever to determine if the fighter was spoofing or not ? If he's spoofing he loses his deposit. Simples.


Ahhh, the world isn't perfect unfortunately. Then start up companies could have to run the risk of no deposit given to a third party before a fight and would unfortunately attract the 'fighters' who seem to have a record of pull outs before the fight. Maybe as the start up company ran more and more successful fights they could then introduce the deposit idea. Tough but that's life. If you can think up of something better be my guest.

An Irish mma council isn't really needed tbh, everything that would happen is pretty much covered by the gym owners in a fair way, eg the new rules change. Any mma council would be headed by the same people who decided on stuff now except with the fancy tag of being on the mma council.

HellsAngel

Raze_them_all wrote: »

An Irish mma council isn't really needed tbh, everything that would happen is pretty much covered by the gym owners in a fair way, eg the new rules change. Any mma council would be headed by the same people who decided on stuff now except with the fancy tag of being on the mma council.

Sound, I'm probably over complicating it. It might be worth the OP's while to post this issue on Sherdog.com or similiar and with the huge MMA community in America they may have ideas to help with the pull outs as I'm sure they have experienced similair over there.

Jason McCabe

I tell you what. It's hard to get a photo of some people notherwords a deposit

The worst thing for me is that we advertise a fight. Then in the interim people don't see the updates. They land at a show to see a fighter and they aren't on the card

It is then made out that the promoter was falsely advertising which is actualy far from the truth.

Plus the other Gym who has their fighter ready starts to associate your show with pull outs.


It's very simple. Don't put your name down to fight if you aren't going to do it. If your injury is a valid one well that understandable.

I had 4 pull outs from my last show that I think were bull$hit and they won't be invited back. There were also a few valid ones with injuries

HellsAngel

Jason McCabe wrote: »

I tell you what. It's hard to get a photo of some people notherwords a deposit

The worst thing for me is that we advertise a fight. Then in the interim people don't see the updates. They land at a show to see a fighter and they aren't on the card

It is then made out that the promoter was falsely advertising which is actualy far from the truth.

Plus the other Gym who has their fighter ready starts to associate your show with pull outs.


It's very simple. Don't put your name down to fight if you aren't going to do it. If your injury is a valid one well that understandable.

I had 4 pull outs from my last show that I think were bull$hit and they won't be invited back. There were also a few valid ones with injuries

Well I understand your frustration ( I have experienced similiar in the world of motorbiking). Maybe it's hard to even get a photo of some, but it has to start sometime, just hoping someone's better nature will come around will not solve the problem. Doubt if these BSer would be so quick to come foward in the first place if they thought they would loose out on a deposit. And indeed, isn't the deposit compensation to the promoter/club for the hassle of this BSer pulling out and finding a replacement ?

stevemc01

One of our guys was supposed to fight on a card in August, a few weeks before the fight he was told his opponent was pulling out due to a neck injury he'd suffered in training, 3 days later the guy with the neck injury took part in a sub wrestling tournament.

Quadsey

stevemc01 wrote: »

One of our guys was supposed to fight on a card in August, a few weeks before the fight he was told his opponent was pulling out due to a neck injury he'd suffered in training, 3 days later the guy with the neck injury took part in a sub wrestling tournament.

He's earned the No.1 spot on 'The list'!;)