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Raw milk
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I've been told by a cheese dealer that West Cork Natural Cheeses who made Gabriel and Desmond cheese (two of the finest hard cheeses in the world, in my opinion) have gone out of business and have stopped producing cheese.
Over the course of three years they were hounded by the authorities for using raw milk in their cheese making. Eventually they won their case but three years of struggling against the authorities, having maturing stock seized, and funding their case has put an end to this wonderful cheese. They have to date received no compensation.
This is one example of the work of overzealous, scientist bureaucrats.0 -
Well I think this article is a bit quick to blame the scientists. It's probably more of the case that the information is presented, and as what always seems to be the situation, is misinterpreted by the reader.0
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Well I think this article is a bit quick to blame the scientists. It's probably more of the case that the information is presented, and as what always seems to be the situation, is misinterpreted by the reader.
Well, we had two microbiologists friends around for dinner recently, and you should have seen their faces when they heard that we had raw milk from a source that we trusted completely. One of them actually thought that we were joking when we said that we were going to drink it! (not sure what she thought we were going to do with it!!).
The same people (not true of all scientists, no doubt) have absolutely no understanding of craft food and don't understand what all the fuss is about over the banning; 'it's safer' is all they see. One of them is really into cheese - factory cheese. He understands how it's made and appreciates the difference between good factory cheese and bad factory cheese but give him a piece of nice farmhouse cheese and he just doesn't get it at all.
He did, however, consent that raw milk could, in the right conditions, be safe to consume but couldn't understand why anyone take the 'risk'.
This is just my experience of food scientists.0 -
the beer revolu wrote: »Well, we had two microbiologists friends around for dinner recently, and you should have seen their faces when they heard that we had raw milk from a source that we trusted completely. One of them actually thought that we were joking when we said that we were going to drink it! (not sure what she thought we were going to do with it!!).
The same people (not true of all scientists, no doubt) have absolutely no understanding of craft food and don't understand what all the fuss is about over the banning 'it's safer' is all they see. One of them is really into cheese - factory cheese. He understands how it's made and appreciates the difference between good factory cheese and bad factory cheese but give him a piece of nice farmhouse cheese and he just doesn't get it at all.
He did, however, consent that raw milk could, in the right conditions, be safe to consume but couldn't understand why anyone take the 'risk'.
This is just my experience of food scientists.
God this post is real flat earth stuff.
There is no craft food argument about drinking raw milk.
It carries risks that are greatly reduced, and generally abolished in pasteurised milk.
Your post suggests that it has been written from an anti logic, anti science position. But I may be incorrect about that.
However I strongly disagree with it, but I respect you for posting it, and taking the risk that it may undermine your credibility.
LostCovey0 -
the beer revolu wrote: »Well, we had two microbiologists friends around for dinner recently, and you should have seen their faces when they heard that we had raw milk from a source that we trusted completely.
What could such a trust be based on?
A herd that never purchases cattle from other herds?
A herd that never has a tick on a milking cow?
A herd that never has a sick cow among the milking herd?
A herd that neverr had a case of mastitis?
A herd that never had a cow with an elevated somatic cell count?
A herd that never has any rodents or crows on the farm?
A herd that never had a calf with scour on the farm?
I put it to the forum that such a herd would be rather difficult for a typical milk drinker to locate
LC0 -
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LostCovey - Attack the post, not the poster. Keep it civil.
HB0 -
the beer revolu wrote: »Well, we had two microbiologists friends around for dinner recently, and you should have seen their faces when they heard that we had raw milk from a source that we trusted completely. One of them actually thought that we were joking when we said that we were going to drink it! (not sure what she thought we were going to do with it!!).
The same people (not true of all scientists, no doubt) have absolutely no understanding of craft food and don't understand what all the fuss is about over the banning 'it's safer' is all they see. One of them is really into cheese - factory cheese. He understands how it's made and appreciates the difference between good factory cheese and bad factory cheese but give him a piece of nice farmhouse cheese and he just doesn't get it at all.
He did, however, consent that raw milk could, in the right conditions, be safe to consume but couldn't understand why anyone take the 'risk'.
This is just my experience of food scientists.
I think this is the big point of what goes on in the FSAI, they just cannot get their head's around why on god's earth we would want to drink raw milk...
For me, as well as health benefits it really is largely flavour - the difference is astounding. But then there is also the undiscriminatory nature of the pasteurisation process where so many beneficial components in the form of bacteria, enzymes, proteins and vitamins - as well as potentially damaging bacteria are destroyed...
John McKenna said it well in his Irish times article today:
"As Pierre Boisard put it in his book, Camembert, A National Myth: “For scientists, nothing was more baffling and unscientific than the skill of the cheese makers, who managed to produce savoury Camemberts without knowing anything at all about microbiology”.
And scientists hate to be baffled by seemingly ignorant farmers and cheesemakers who, damn them all, have scarcely a BSc to their name."0 -
God this post is real flat earth stuff.
There is no craft food argument about drinking raw milk.
It carries risks that are greatly reduced, and generally abolished in pasteurised milk.
Your post suggests that it has been written from an anti logic, anti science position. But I may be incorrect about that.
However I strongly disagree with it, but I respect you for posting it, and taking the risk that it may undermine your credibility.
LostCovey
You have me puzzled there LostCovey!
What exactly do you strongly disagree with?
I recounted an experience myself and my wife had with two friends.
Do you doubt that encounter?
The only claim I made was that these people (my friends) have no understanding of craft food? Do you know these people? Do you dispute this claim? - I'm sure they wouldn't.
Are you suggesting that myself and my wife don't trust the source from which we get our milk and that I was lying when I said I did?
You are perfectly entitled to think I am misguided, naive, ignorant, foolish, lacking in credibility or anything else for trusting any source of unpasteurized but I still don't see what it is in my post that you strongly disagree with.
I'm wondering if you are the guy in my local who when arguing, starts shouting "you're wrong" before anything is said!
On one occasion the barman stated that he'd argue with the wall to which he replied "no I wouldn't!"
I also find your 'flat earth' analogy rather odd.
Surely it was the establishment and scientists of the day claiming the earth was flat and a maverick thinker claiming it was round? Or maybe I'm missing something.
Oh, and I'm so glad you respect me, LostCovey, I'd say the same for you only it would be meaningless as my credibility is so comprimised;)0 -
What could such a trust be based on?
LC
That trust is based on trusting a supplier enough to drink the same milk that they drink themselves and have been doing so for a couple of generations.
Of trusting them that their practise would minimise any risk.
I'm not trying to have pasteurized milk banned here!
I simply want people to be able to have a choice.
For there to be a system of testing for raw milk so it can be sold as a premium product to those that wish to make that choice.
But of course, it's much easier to have an outright ban!
I fear that this ban is the thin end of the wedge that will see everything that's not produced in a factory banned.
LC, would you be in favour of also banning raw milk cheese?0 -
the beer revolu wrote: »God this post is real flat earth stuff.
There is no craft food argument about drinking raw milk.
It carries risks that are greatly reduced, and generally abolished in pasteurised milk.
Your post suggests that it has been written from an anti logic, anti science position. But I may be incorrect about that.
However I strongly disagree with it, but I respect you for posting it, and taking the risk that it may undermine your credibility.
LostCovey
You have me puzzled there LostCovey!
What exactly do you strongly disagree with?
I recounted an experience myself and my wife had with two friends.
Do you doubt that encounter?
The only claim I made was that these people (my friends) have no understanding of craft food? Do you know these people? Do you dispute this claim? - I'm sure they wouldn't.
Are you suggesting that myself and my wife don't trust the source from which we get our milk and that I was lying when I said I did?
You are perfectly entitled to think I am misguided, naive, ignorant, foolish, lacking in credibility or anything else for trusting any source of unpasteurized but I still don't see what it is in my post that you strongly disagree with.
I'm wondering if you are the guy in my local who when arguing, starts shouting "you're wrong" before anything is said!
On one occasion the barman stated that he'd argue with the wall to which he replied "no I wouldn't!"
I also find your 'flat earth' analogy rather odd.
Surely it was the establishment and scientists of the day claiming the earth was flat and a maverick thinker claiming it was round? Or maybe I'm missing something.
Oh, and I'm so glad you respect me, LostCovey, I'd say the same for you only it would be meaningless as my credibility is so comprimised;)
Flat earth beliefs were based on trust and faith and received wisdom, passed on without question ó ghlúin go glúin. Such beliefs survived until they were overwhelmed by the enlightened evidence of science. Pasteurisation does not need me to defend it as there is a massive volume of peer reviews literature that atttests to its effficacy and the benefits it has bestowed on public health and the reduction of childhood mortality. However this is probably the wrong place to discuss these things, when some participants apparently regard "scientific" and "evidence-based" as pejorative terms.
However I can now see why the FSAI in contemplating a ban might not see much point in extensive consultation. Some people clearly need to be protected from the adverse consequences of their profound naivete.
LostCovey0 -
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Flat earth beliefs were based on trust and faith and received wisdom, passed on without question ó ghlúin go glúin. Such beliefs survived until they were overwhelmed by the enlightened evidence of science. Pasteurisation does not need me to defend it as there is a massive volume of peer reviews literature that atttests to its effficacy and the benefits it has bestowed on public health and the reduction of childhood mortality. However this is probably the wrong place to discuss these things, when some participants apparently regard "scientific" and "evidence-based" as pejorative terms.
However I can now see why the FSAI in contemplating a ban might not see much point in extensive consultation. Some people clearly need to be protected from the adverse consequences of their profound naivete.
LostCovey
I repeat my question:
What, exactly, in my post do you strongly disagree with?
Also, I asked you for your view on raw milk cheese.
Where in this thread did I or anyone else deride or question pasteurization or what it does?
It seems to me that you have a far greater love of talking than listening (or in this case writing rather than reading)0 -
The pair of you either give it up or I will remove your access to this forum.
HB0 -
However I can now see why the FSAI in contemplating a ban might not see much point in extensive consultation. Some people clearly need to be protected from the adverse consequences of their profound naivete.
LostCovey
Not to be picky, but case in point there about the not reading things through - the FSAI as an advisory body have no power to implement a ban. It is the Department of Agriculture facilitated by the Department of Health.
I think perhaps you are venting here based on contents of another thread which you were posting in previously?
Perhaps all will become clearer to any viewers if they have a look...
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=20563295540 -
I think perhaps you are venting here based on contents of another thread which you were posting in previously?
Perhaps all will become clearer to any viewers if they have a look...
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056329554
That thread certainly does make for very interesting reading!0 -
the beer revolu wrote: »That thread certainly does make for very interesting reading!
Still want to drink raw milk?0 -
Still want to drink raw milk?
Yes but I'm obviously, like yourself, a retrograde, ignorant, illogical, moon worshipping hippie, so I wouldn't take too much notice of me.
But I must dash, I'm off to force feed some poorly infants and pregnant women lovely, warm, untested raw milk (for their own good, of course!);)0 -
the beer revolu wrote: »Yes but I'm obviously, like yourself, a retrograde, ignorant, illogical, moon worshipping hippie, so I wouldn't take too much notice of me.
But I must dash, I'm off to force feed some poorly infants and pregnant women lovely, warm, untested raw milk (for their own good, of course!);)
The dripping sarcasm and avoidance of any attempt to address any of the factual issues raised about health hazards inherent in drinking raw farm milk suggests that these two posters are walking away from the debate.
Fine by me.
LostCovey0 -
The dripping sarcasm and avoidance of any attempt to address any of the factual issues raised about health hazards inherent in drinking raw farm milk suggests that these two posters are walking away from the debate.
Fine by me.
LostCovey
To be fair on this - you are the one who only selectively addresses certain points where you CAN make a point.
I understand that there are two sides to the argument, and you have certainly made a couple of valid points (in the other thread that is!)
But genuinely take the time to read through ALL the points I have made, and then think them through and address them all.
You were given the last word already. It is quite clear to me that you have not read all of the information provided, when you HAVE done this and when you are prepared to look at all the points then perhaps you will be able to see (as I can) that there are two sides to every argument.
By the way, i have acknowledged potential risks several times perhaps you would go back and READ my posts and you will see this.
The main point is that risks are all around and in many foods, if I choose to take a risk, however small it may be in the case of regulated production, then why should I not be allowed to? After all we can smoke and drink and drive, is natural raw milk really all that scary when you look at it in this context?
Best Wishes0 -
To be fair on this - you are the one who only selectively addresses certain points where you CAN make a point.
I understand that there are two sides to the argument, and you have certainly made a couple of valid points (in the other thread that is!)
But genuinely take the time to read through ALL the points I have made, and then think them through and address them all.
You were given the last word already. It is quite clear to me that you have not read all of the information provided, when you HAVE done this and when you are prepared to look at all the points then perhaps you will be able to see (as I can) that there are two sides to every argument.
By the way, i have acknowledged potential risks several times perhaps you would go back and READ my posts and you will see this.
The main point is that risks are all around and in many foods, if I choose to take a risk, however small it may be in the case of regulated production, then why should I not be allowed to? After all we can smoke and drink and drive, is natural raw milk really all that scary when you look at it in this context?
Best Wishes
IR
I have read your points and they are all subjective, while the counter argument is a scientific one based on the statistical risk to the population.
On balance the risk outweighs the benefits in my opinion.
A further argument that is raised in today's Farmer's Journal which did not occur to me is that this country exports over 90% of its dairy produce, and the sale of raw milk brings the risk of adverse publicity.
Suppose that somebody who is willing to take a risk (and you explicitly accept it is a risk) and they lose the gamble: the person and some of their family die as a result of E. coli 0157 and the survivors go on a waiting list for a renal transplant. I can acept that the adults are free to gamble with their lkives/health (not the kids), but the clincher is that the publicity resulting from this could cause a collapse in demand for perfectly safe pasteurised Irish dairy produce. Economic catastrophe would follow on top of our weakened condition, and why - because we took a gamble to satisfy some epicureans with a perverse craving for the raw mammary secretions of another animal?
This is the argument that will carry the day, and render our little squabble here totally academic.
LostCovey0 -
Except that this could still happen given that so many farmers drink their own milk - so point is null and void.IR
On balance the risk outweighs the benefits in my opinion.
A further argument that is raised in today's Farmer's Journal which did not occur to me is that this country exports over 90% of its dairy produce, and the sale of raw milk brings the risk of adverse publicity.
LostCovey
By banning raw milk we send out a vote of no confidence in our dairy farmers to the world...
Thanks
FIN0 -
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Except that this could still happen given that so many farmers drink their own milk - so point is null and void.
By banning raw milk we send out a vote of no confidence in our dairy farmers to the world...
Thanks
FIN
No, I don't accept that reducing the number of people that drink raw milk won't reduce the risk of an outbreak. I don't accept that banning commercial sale and restricting the number of people exposed to the hazards of raw milk will make no difference to the risk.
There has never been a serious outbreak of E. coli 0157 associated with raw milk that I am aware of (YET) but the risk is a real one, because so many of the bacteria found in raw milk are are of faecal origin.
However the authorities have to work on the basis of risk assessments, and any fair risk assessment would acknowledge that the risk of an E. coli 0157 outbreak are low BUT the potential consequences are so catastrophic for the affected individual (including death and kidney failure) and the associated blowback so disastrous for the industry, that the ban on selling raw milk is a measured response to the overall risk assessment.
And that is restricting considerations to the most serious hazard, and ignoring all the other lesser risks (which are more likely, but mostly with somewhat lesser potential consequences). Faecal organisms from animals can be dangerous for humans - there is no way of changing that essential truth. Pasteurisation is a minimimalist intervention that mitigates it.
I do not believe a ban is an appropriate way to deal with people who drink their own milk. The best thing to address that risk is education, and that will take some time, perhaps a generation, to change these habits which go back so far. But if you travel around the country, there is a steady increase in the number of dairy farms that have retail milk in their fridge.
We have been drinking raw cow's milk since the Iron Age, and only really learned to appreciate the hazards in the past century, so I accept it will take some people a while to change.
However I think we would be foolish to pretend there are no risks. We can't just shred a century of accumulated evidence on some ill-informed gourmand/crusty whim.
LostCovey0 -
See today's Business post for two articles which raise the issue of the proposed ban on sale of raw milk. Page 12 as well as Agenda Mag...0
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See today's Business post for two articles which raise the issue of the proposed ban on sale of raw milk. Page 12 as well as Agenda Mag...
They are hardly interesting, as they are so one-sided and plain wrong about serious food safety issues. Surely they are just campaign articles by from the same lobby group/PR firm that has run this whole campaign. Infairness they are earning their fee.
However the articles show some very wooly thinking and muddled logic, and in fact the one in the magazine seemed to be arguing that inspectors should be policing quality as well as safety.
Other ráiméis included the suggestion that outdoor pigs are less at risk of Trichinella than intensively reared pigs (its the other way around) and that burger vendors should serve pink burgers on request.
Oh....Oh.......Oh.......O157
LostCovey0 -
Far too much fuss is kicked up over raw milk.0
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Interesting debate on the Mooney Show today between the FSAI and John McKenna. He really came over as a tool trying to bring breast feeding into the argument and panic people that might not agree with him.0
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This argument makes for interesting reading, especially when there is such a vehement pro-pasteurisation debater.
Background: I grew up on an Irish dairy farm, where we drank our own milk. When we stopped producing milk, we bought our milk from our neighbour, still unpasteurised. I drank this milk from the time I was a baby until I moved to university, so approximately 18 years. I still drink it when I return to my parents' home.
I remember when we had a reactor in our herd - we stopped drinking our own milk until the herd tested clear.
Everyone I knew in our vicinity drank their own milk. I don't know one person who died of E. coli or suffered any adverse effects. Granted, this is anecdotal evidence, but generations of Irish farmers can't be completely wrong. Continuing in the anecdotal vein. the farming community tend to suffer from very little asthma, allergies or other ailments that seem to come with town/urban living.
I think the pathogen aspect is being blown out of proportion here - in a similar vein to the salmonella scare around eggs, and the furore around rare-medium cooked burgers. As long as the food is produced cleanly and handled with care, risk will be minimised. After that, it is up to the consumer to make their choice.
Scientists/government should make sure that production is clean and controlled, rather than implementing an ill-conceived and silly ban.0 -
This argument makes for interesting reading, especially when there is such a vehement pro-pasteurisation debater.
Background: I grew up on an Irish dairy farm, where we drank our own milk. When we stopped producing milk, we bought our milk from our neighbour, still unpasteurised. I drank this milk from the time I was a baby until I moved to university, so approximately 18 years. I still drink it when I return to my parents' home.
I remember when we had a reactor in our herd - we stopped drinking our own milk until the herd tested clear.
Everyone I knew in our vicinity drank their own milk. I don't know one person who died of E. coli or suffered any adverse effects. Granted, this is anecdotal evidence, but generations of Irish farmers can't be completely wrong. Continuing in the anecdotal vein. the farming community tend to suffer from very little asthma, allergies or other ailments that seem to come with town/urban living.
I think the pathogen aspect is being blown out of proportion here - in a similar vein to the salmonella scare around eggs, and the furore around rare-medium cooked burgers. As long as the food is produced cleanly and handled with care, risk will be minimised. After that, it is up to the consumer to make their choice.
Scientists/government should make sure that production is clean and controlled, rather than implementing an ill-conceived and silly ban.
Dairies have labs on site for milk testing, do you know of any farms that have a lab to test its raw milk?0 -
Corsendonk wrote: »Dairies have labs on site for milk testing, do you know of any farms that have a lab to test its raw milk?
The farmers may not have a lab on site but they can still get their milk tested independently and not rely on the Dairy's lab.0 -
Corsendonk wrote: »Interesting debate on the Mooney Show today between the FSAI and John McKenna. He really came over as a tool trying to bring breast feeding into the argument and panic people that might not agree with him.
I was listening to this yesterday, and John McKenna, in fairness, only brought in the breast-feeding thing as a jokey remark about banning the consumption of all raw milk from the (I think) FSAI woman. I'm not sure of her name, but the things she was coming out with were ridiculous. After McKenna's comments on the breast-feeding, she seemed to lose the plot a little and talk about "all those brave women in Ireland today breast-feeding". This would be an example of her "won't someone please think of the children" screeching mentality.
I would be totally against the ban on the sale of raw milk. I had it when we were kids and visiting relatives in the country, it was delicious. The leftovers can also be kept and allowed to turn to buttermilk for making bread.
The only people I would assume would be so aggressively anti-raw milk (considering noone is forcing them to drink it) are either busy-bodies or have connections to creameries and would stand to lose profit if even a minority of people were allowed to bypass their product.
I'm with pretty much everyone else here - if someone wants to take the risk, let them.0 -
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BroomBurner wrote: »I was listening to this yesterday, and John McKenna, in fairness, only brought in the breast-feeding thing as a jokey remark about banning the consumption of all raw milk from the (I think) FSAI woman. I'm not sure of her name, but the things she was coming out with were ridiculous. After McKenna's comments on the breast-feeding, she seemed to lose the plot a little and talk about "all those brave women in Ireland today breast-feeding". This would be an example of her "won't someone please think of the children" screeching mentality.
I would be totally against the ban on the sale of raw milk. I had it when we were kids and visiting relatives in the country, it was delicious. The leftovers can also be kept and allowed to turn to buttermilk for making bread.
The only people I would assume would be so aggressively anti-raw milk (considering noone is forcing them to drink it) are either busy-bodies or have connections to creameries and would stand to lose profit if even a minority of people were allowed to bypass their product.
I'm with pretty much everyone else here - if someone wants to take the risk, let them.
Well I would say the Dairy Industry would be more worried about an ecoli outbreak from Farm Milk rather than the competition:D, after all 90% of our milk is exported in one form or other. The first reaction from consumers in a food scare is usually over the top. Look at all the fresh produce that was dumped following the beansprout ecoli outbreak in Germany. Irish cucumber prices and sales have never really recovered this year since even do their was no connection. So do you allow a product that is 0.5-1% of the total Irish domestic milk market at the risk of damaging your export market?
I agree that FSAI Lady put her argument over pretty badly, she was trying to do the tight rope walk of asking us to drink more milk but avoid pointing out that drinking another animals milk is not a natural act as pointed out by one of Mooney wildlife experts.0
This discussion has been closed.
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