Can this be done or is it just hollywood?

Paddy Diver

I think I know the answer to this already and its probably a daft question but never the less....

While watching some movie recently I saw something that got me wondering, here it is....

...our would be assassin is in position, he/she open's up there box of goodies, starts assembling their rifle, screw in barrel, attach stock etc etc then they clip on a scope and lock it in place and get a spot on shot form 20miles away! bla bla....

can this be done? is there a type of mount that allows a pre-zeroed rifle to be dismantled and re-assembled and have a perfect zero? Is there such military devices?

Im guessing this is all hollywoood

homerhop

20 miles away!!!! says it all

firefly08

Looks like it is possible (assuming you don't really mean 20 miles...I've never seen anything quite that crazy even in a move):
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=219&t=171278

Also:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/warne_maxima_rings.htm

The Warne Maxima QR bases hold the zero during the remove and replace sequence that takes just moments. I never have been able to detect a POI shift, and after confirming a rifle prior to hunt they stay zeroed.

smcgiff

20 miles? Think I saw that movie...

The shot was taken from a hot air balloon (to overcome the earth's curvature), while the assassin shot over their shoulder while looking into a highly polished dessert spoon.

Paddy Diver

firefly08 wrote: »

assuming you don't really mean 20 miles
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=219&t=171278

Of course I dont actually mean 20 miles, you just know hollywood

It wasn't me!

There are take-down rifles (for travelling) which offer that facility, like the Sauer 202, the Blaser R8/R93, the Mauser M03, RWS Titan and the like. They fit in a suitcase sized carry case, which is handy, and yeah, they do return reliably to zero. Would love a Mauser M03 myself, gorgeous rifles.

Grizzly 45

Pivot mounts will bring you back to zero ,any and everytime.They have been around for years..Plenty of "breif case " takedown rifles out there that are very accurate.

freddieot

LRS2 also has a saddle mount for the scope whcih means return to zero every time.

deerhunter1

Paddy Diver wrote: »

I think I know the answer to this already and its probably a daft question but never the less....

While watching some movie recently I saw something that got me wondering, here it is....

...our would be assassin is in position, he/she open's up there box of goodies, starts assembling their rifle, screw in barrel, attach stock etc etc then they clip on a scope and lock it in place and get a spot on shot form 20miles away! bla bla....

can this be done? is there a type of mount that allows a pre-zeroed rifle to be dismantled and re-assembled and have a perfect zero? Is there such military devices?

Im guessing this is all hollywoood

Yes it can done but not for 20miles:P There are firearms out there that you ca do it with

dan17

leopold do quick release mounts as well for scope. but u have to buy bases and mounts to suit each other and are a little pricey

FISMA

Hi Paddy,
Highly doubtful.
Remember the famous scene where Bourne puts together his rifle?

Is it something like what you are talking about? They do make quick release mounts that attempt to allow you to pop a scope off and then back on. However, when talking optics, a hair or a click, can mean the difference of a meal or going hungry.

Why do you ask? If you are a writer or something to that effect, please advise, as I am sure that we could all help with a more realistic scenario.

Why not break the gun down with scope attached to receiver and leave as is?

When hunting season comes around I zero my scope and leave it alone. I try not to touch it, unless I have to. When it travels to a site, it's in a lot of foam. I really do not even like to clean the rifle after zeroing before the hunt.

As a hunter, I cannot imagine taking off the scope AND barrel - and having the expectation of a long range shot. Machining has come a long way, however, we're still not quite there.

The longest confirmed kill shot was 2,430 meters (1.5099miles). I have no idea what the muzzle speed was. You would have to consider: temperature, altitude, atmospheric pressure, humidity/dew point (whatever they call it - air moisture content) and many other factors. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if they actually had to use the local value of acceleration due to gravity. 9.80m/s^2 is a nice estimate, however g varies from the Equator to the North Pole.

Anyhow, our bullet, traveling 2430m at a muzzle speed of 923 m/s (3,029 ft/s) has a flight time of around 4 seconds. Again, I have no idea how much energy air resistance takes from the bullet's speed. If the bullet traveled the entire distance without losing any Energy, it would take 2.63s.

Point being, in 4 seconds, you will have to consider the rotation of the Earth!

Crazy stuff. I'd be happy to take a deer at 600yards. Actually, I would be happy to even see one these days.

Slan

Mellor

People are getting a bit hung up on the fact that you mentioned 20 miles.
It was hyperbole, get over it guys.

To answer your question, yes there are detachable mounts that will maintain a zero.

Mellor

FISMA, seeign as you mentioned it, might as well finish it.

FISMA wrote: »

The longest confirmed kill shot was 2,430 meters (1.5099miles)

Not anymore. That record was from 2002, was bested last year by a UK sniper. Now stands at 2,475 m

I have no idea what the muzzle speed was.

823 m/s (2,700 ft/s), .50 cal

You would have to consider: temperature, altitude, atmospheric pressure, humidity/dew point (whatever they call it - air moisture content) and many other factors. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if they actually had to use the local value of acceleration due to gravity. 9.80m/s^2 is a nice estimate, however g varies from the Equator to the North Pole.

You are right that all those things would have an impact, but local G, curvature of the earth they wouldn't actually be considered by the shooter. In reality, its quicker to just fire and adjust you aim based on this. For the shot you mention it actually took hit 3 shots to hit the target. The first missed, the second hit the bag, but not enemy, the third was the killshot.

The current record, the shooter says he took 9 shots to guage range.
Once ranged, his next shot was a kill shot (he took out 2 gunners at 2,475m)

Anyhow, our bullet, traveling 2430m at a muzzle speed of 923 m/s (3,029 ft/s) has a flight time of around 4 seconds. Again, I have no idea how much energy air resistance takes from the bullet's speed. If the bullet traveled the entire distance without losing any Energy, it would take 2.63s.

Point being, in 4 seconds, you will have to consider the rotation of the Earth!

The rounds would of been low drag, plus it was at elevation so air is lighter less resistance.
But I think they said flight time was just under 4 seconds, so you were spot on with the estimate.

pedroeibar1

There are some really stupid ones - like the bird with the Mustang in Goldfinger with the AR7 (?) - the takedown .22 cal. survival rifle that tries to bump off Auric. In fairness, she misses.:D
P.

It wasn't me!

By the sound of things, the Mauser's ability to return to zero, with its indexing quick detachable scope mounts, is spot on. Very handy feature, would love one myself. Handled one at Birr last year and thought it was superb, well balanced, well weighted, good trigger, and it comes down to nothing. Quickly swap out bolt heads for different case sizes, same with magazines, can use different scopes for different calibres, all pre-zeroed, so one day you're stalking in Scotland with a .270 barrel, medium magnification scope, next you're in Zimbabwe for cape buffalo and it's now a .458 Lott with a small, low-mag scope, and the rifle feels identical, apart from the smaller scope and more recoil, so you have all the familiarity and the extra functionality, and it holds zero after barrel changes.

Tackleberrywho

Has anybody on here on of these Mauser rifles? And can verify that these rifles do hold zero?

In my experience at taking precision machines apart and reinstating components, variation is natural.

even if bolts are torqued down other variables can come into play. a small shard of metal on any machined surface to which another machined surface is affixed can cause a variation.
Many other dynamics can come into play.

I would believe that having the rifle back on paper within an inch or so should be obtainable, however getting it precisely returned to zero?
I would doubt this until I had seen it in the flesh.
My 2 cents

It wasn't me!

I know there's one guy who has one on here, doesn't post much, but I don't think he has any more than the one barrel in it. I've seen video demonstrations of it done though. It's a good system. There's no torque wrench involved, just a T key to screw down the barrel (and it just goes dead tight, there's no torque setting involved) and the mounts clip back into dedicated slots.

Tackleberrywho

It wasn't me! wrote: »

I know there's one guy who has one on here, doesn't post much, but I don't think he has any more than the one barrel in it. I've seen video demonstrations of it done though. It's a good system. There's no torque wrench involved, just a T key to screw down the barrel (and it just goes dead tight, there's no torque setting involved) and the mounts clip back into dedicated slots.

Problem is, how do you insure the setting is as tight as it was the previous time?
I have seen lads/girls using T-Handles and then measuring with a torque wrench and seeing variables.

I have encountered variables myself when testing level on theta axis on components. This was usually rectified by torquing down, however often times the variable came from some other variable like particles on the surfaces or in the screw holes will affect tightening. if a particle falls into a screw hole and a bolt is tightened and the corresponding screw hole has no particles there will be a variable. (I'm only talking about particles of grime grit or foreign object)

I would like to see it done in a NON video produced way though.(where flaws can be edited)
However if it was not for shooting targets and was for shooting large game 1/2" off would be no big deal for the calibre.
So they could CLAIM Zero was not affected as the rifle would still do what it was supposed to.
It would depend on what their definition of holding zero was!

Grizzly 45

FWIW,I would assume Mauser werke who have been making very good guns for over 100plus years for both military and civillian shooters will have a pretty good idea on how to put together a rifle that will hold the zero over a lifetime of shooting,and even taking it apart and putting it back together.;):D.Put it like this;if they were rubbish,I doubt that they would still carry them as a product line.

Second,accruacy is again subjective..This type of gun is not designed as a hyper super accurate target rifle.It is a hunting rifle.IOW will it hit a deer ,boar,etc sized target at a plus/minus given range,if you the shooter do your job.Do you need it tobe able to hit centre mass[accurate] or the left ventricle of the heart??[hyper accurate]

Next,taking the "Hollywood factor "into this..Where anything is possible.I personally,dont know of any case with such a style of rifle.TBH the professional sniper assasin in real life is a very rare creature indeed.So of course they could have such a take down target super dooper sniper rifle that could pop somone at ten miles or whatever!

Movie directors and screen writers dont have to worry about,bullet drop,scope magnification,parallex,MOA,wind direction and speed at target or going to the target,or temperature.The great unwashed isnt going to know any of this either[bar us shooters].So who really cares what type of weird and wonderful gun the villan or hero uses??Or how unrealistic the shot??Its Hollywood Baby!:rolleyes::D

If you are really worried about coming back to zero.There are plenty of cistom rifles out there that do a demontable buttstock in carbine length which are plenty accurate and dont involve removing the barrel.

FISMA

+1 for TackleBerry's arguement

IMHO, I would be surprised to see high accuracy after scope removal. I may give it precision, but not accuracy. I would highly doubt precision and accuracy.

Grizzly 45

Well, just speaking from experiance of using canterlever mounts on Drillings over the past 30 odd years,the scope DOES come back to zero any and everytime.Unless you have somhow managed to bollix setting up the scope somhow.Of course they arent target rifles,but hunting rifles they are good enough to drop deer and game and thats what counts for me,as any deer I've shot dont come with a ten ring on them.:D
Also,I thought Tack was on about rifles that can have their barrels removed ,not scopes??

roy rodgers

cool....guns have come a long way since my fathers .22 rifle.

and still he never missed.

tac foley

FISMA wrote: »

The longest confirmed kill shot was 2,430 meters (1.5099miles).

using an Accuracy International L115A3, British Corporal of Horse Craig Harrison killed two Taliban with consecutive shots at a distance of 2.47 kilometres (1.538 miles) in Helmand Province, Afghanistan last November (2009). He then fired a third shot and hit the Taliban's PKM machinegun in perhaps the most prodigious feat of marksmanship in military history.

He related that the conditions were absolutely ideal (from HIS POV, obviously - the guys at the other end weren't going to be too impressed). No mirage, still air all the way and great visibility. Note that the rifle was a .338LM and not the .50cal MacMillan used by Master Corporal Rob Furlong a few years previously, which makes it even more impressive.

tac

Paddy Diver

FISMA wrote: »

Why do you ask? If you are a writer or something to that effect, please advise, as I am sure that we could all help with a more realistic scenario.

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No not a writer, can barely spell my own name! I shoot just like you guys, Im just not that experienced as most people here.

Reason I asked was because I just saw it in some film I was watching and wondered could it be done and it appears that yes it can

Grizzly 45

Discoverd how this is done on the Mauser. The threads on the rifle barrel and reciver are made with appx six threads.The parts that meet on the reciver and barrel are machined absolutely flush and meet with an extreme high tolerance.When they are meeting correctly there is a spring loaded pin in the stock that pops into a reciveing hole and this locks the stock.To release the stock there is a lever on the underside of the stock forend like a lever on a shotgun,that works the mechanism to release the pin in the stock and allowing the barrel to be unscrewed.

Mellor

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Movie directors and screen writers dont have to worry about,bullet drop,scope magnification,parallex,MOA,wind direction and speed at target or going to the target,or temperature.

Check out the opening scene to shooter. Mark Wahlberg plays an retired marksman.
Pretty accurate in terms of portrayal of shooting for a change.

Grizzly 45

My BS o meter was stuck fully in the red for most of that film.:(
Doing shots with the Chey tac that would be hard pressing a . 50 BMG,with ludcrious pinpoint accruaccy over huge distances.

Captain Chaos

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

My BS o meter was stuck fully in the red for most of that film.:(
Doing shots with the Chey tac that would be hard pressing a . 50 BMG,with ludcrious pinpoint accruaccy over huge distances.

The M200 fires a .408, much more accurate and much better bullet DC than the .50 BMG. Still the movie, it is HollyWood after does come with a nice side order of BS. Like the scope magnification level when he shoots the melon, the distance he was away and the size of the melon in the scope and it was rock steady. Total BS.

The rifle even come with a hand held fire control gps calculator. Not really practical all the time but very cool none the less.

Grizzly 45

Gentlemen.
An article here from the German shooting magazine Caliber Jan1 2010 titled as above.There is also a TV programme on this called Galileo from the German TV station Pro 7.Galileo is a sort of a science and myth debunking ,new technology programme.They did an entire show on this film "Shooter", in a seris of debunking shooting myths[shown 17 october 2009] Am trying to find the link to it for your viewing.
They deliberatly set out to see if you can shoot a can[std 1 kg sauer kraut can] at 1600 meters.[obviossly not having somones head to hand!]Involved were some of the Bundeswehr sniper instructors and one member of the German Caliber editorial team.
Long story short you can certainly "reach out and touch " at the distance but will you do it exactly into the right buttonhole of their shirt,or shoot fingers off triggers is questionable..Due to the limits of scopes,the shooter and how absolutely precise can you be??.Bearing in mind variables like slightest wind at the distances can throw the shot by huge distances.EG 100 cms at 1600 meters with 1m/s of wind at the target.They did however conclude with the right gun,ammo scope and man behind it,with a first class spotter[somthing missing in the film and a vital component of a sniper team] a target 60x40 cms is certainly doable.

Bearing in mind this article is in German,I will gladly translate as much as I can of it for those who would like a copy??

dCorbus

Hey Grizz, could you PM me a copy of the article? Thanks, dC.

Grizzly 45

AHEM!! with a 308.;):D


1,250 meters = 1,367 yards

Staff Sgt. Jim Gilliland, a Marksman from Alabama, began hunting squirrels at age 5.

He was assigned as a Sniper in Iraq, and this long shot was against an Iraqi sniper that had just shot an American Soldier.

After it was all over, he was informed that the Iraqi had killed a good friend of his, Staff Sgt. Jason Benford.

The shot brought Gilliland up to about 55 to 65 probable kills so far.

The famous Marine sniper Carlos Hathcock had 400 to 500 probable kills in Vietnam (including one Chinese Officer) with 93 kills actually confirmed.
Hold over somthing like 12 ft above the target.
Not saying extreme long range shots cant be done.But it is a more exacting science than Hollywood would like us to belive.