Which was the greater Unbeaten Achievement - United 98/99 V Arsenal 03/04

homerjay2005

Been meaning to start this thread for a long long time, and this morning, inspired by the decision to nominate Arsene Wenger as the greatest man to manage in British football on last nights ESPN documentary, is the perfect time.

i would rather if neutrals were more prominant here than arsenal, united or ABUs,to give a true reflection of the view on this matter, but by all means, everybody feel free to give their opinion. this also is not about united winning 3 trophies, this is about going unbeaten for a huge amount of time, both different set ups

so, in essence, which run was better or more of an achievement. apologies if the figures are wrong, but i think they are pretty much correct.

When Boro came to Old Trafford just before Christmas 98, their 3-2 win sparked United into action, going the rest of the season, 33 games, unbeaten in all competitions, 20 in the league. United picked up the CL (5 games) and FA cups(8) (beating liverpool, chelsea (r) and arsenal (r)), with the semi reply aginast arsenal one of the all time great games. the following season, united added another 12 games to this run in both the CL(3) and PL(9) and chelseas 5-0 victory in stamford bridge in early october brought a 45 game run to an end. United went on to lose 3 more games over the coming weeks, i think to Villa, Spurs and Marseille

The Arsenal achievement is more simplictic, they went the entire League season unbeaten, a span of 38 matches. add in 2 unbeaten games at the end of 2002/03 season and then 9 at the beginning of the following season, arsenal went to old trafford in search of the magic 50 league games unbeaten. 2 late United goals ended that run, in an emtionally charged game that seemed to unsettle the gunners, who went on a run on to win only one game in 6 league game. in the 03/04 season, arsenal lost 5 times outside of the league, an fa cup semi to united, 3 times in europe to inter, kiev and chelsea along with the carling cup. the team picked up the "invincibles" term, along with the Preston north end team who achieved another unbtean league season in the late 1880's

as a United fan, i am obviously going to say Uniteds run was more impressive, based on the fact that they did it on all competitions and technically Arsenal didnt go unbeaten as such.

The Treble was never done before, whereas going unbeaten in the league has been. (PNE, though played alot less games, but still did it and won the fa too).

thoughts please?

Le King

Our 45 encompassed all competitions. Arsenal's was 20 in all competitions, I think.

We won 3 trophies that season. Arsenal won 1.

Pretty obvious to me that United's is a far greater achievement.

I think Arsenal also got knocked out in the quarter final stage of the Champions League. United won all 3.

Carrying consistency into 3 major competitions is a harder achievement than dominating one.

The trophies alone would win it for me, not to mention my other points.

DOC09UNAM

Has to be United in all competitions, to take it to europe is an amazing achievement and keep it going.

RasTa

Arsenal for me by a long stretch.

Edit actually not a long stretch but I don't see it being done again for another 100 years.

Le King

DOC09UNAM wrote: »

Has to be United in all competitions, to take it to europe is an amazing achievement and keep it going.

That is a huge factor. Arsenal were gone at the QF stage, by Chelsea I think. Then we beat them in the FA cup.

However, I think I'm unfairly wording a lot of this as I don't want to take away from Arsenal's achievement either.

homerjay2005

could people pass comments rather than just voting. forgot to add the public option, though in essence, its irrelevant.

SlickRic

a great idea, kudos.

for me, it's Arsenal.

to go unbeaten in the League for that many games is just so unique IMO, and that record is one that i really feel is going to be more difficult to replicate than United's. also, that Arsenal team is one of my favourite teams, full stop, of all time.

this is not to downgrade Utd's achievement, because it was obviously monumental.

in essence, really, the decision here is much of a muchness. i think it's just one of those in which you go with what your gut says. to hugely downgrade either achievement would be massively disrespectful.

part of me kind of wishes i could vote for both.

DOC09UNAM

The deciding factor for me, was uniteds run took them to an unprecedented treble that may never be matched.

gimmick

What, a decent comparsion thread? Well I never.

Loathe and all as I am to say it, it has to be ManYoo. They came, saw and conquered all before them to win a historic treble.

Arsenals achievement, while amazing, pales in comparision.

And I say that as an Arsenal admirer, and a ManYoo hater.

keane2097

If there had been an equal button on the poll I would have chosen that.

They are both awesome achievements.

If I had to choose, I'd just go for Arsenal's one.

I could see us going unbeaten for a huge number of games again potentially, but I doubt I'll ever see us go through an EPL season without being beaten.

Johner

SlickRic wrote: »

a great idea, kudos.

for me, it's Arsenal.

to go unbeaten in the League for that many games is just so unique IMO, and that record is one that i really feel is going to be more difficult to replicate than United's. also, that Arsenal team is one of my favourite teams, full stop, of all time.

this is not to downgrade Utd's achievement, because it was obviously monumental.

in essence, really, the decision here is much of a muchness. i think it's just one of those in which you go with what your gut. to hugely downgrade either achievement would be massively disrespectful.

part of me kind of wishes i could vote for both.

Agree with everything said here.

keane2097

DOC09UNAM wrote: »

The deciding factor for me, was uniteds run took them to an unprecedented treble that may never be matched.

Bareclona already bettered it no?

mike65

If the criteria is based on not losing then Arsenal actually win this as they went on a longer run. If the criteria is more gongs then Man Utd win.

gimmick

keane2097 wrote: »

Bareclona already bettered it no?

Presumably he meant by an English side? And even then, I would not bet against a Chelsea clean sweep this season.

If not, both Barcelona and Inter equalled it in the last 2 years.

newbie2

45 < 49

IMO

Spud83

mike65 wrote: »

If the criteria is based on not losing then Arsenal actually win this as they went on a longer run. If the criteria is more gongs then Man Utd win.

Thats kind of the point. They didn't, they went on a longer run in the league while losing in other competitions.

MuPpItJoCkEy

Has to be United. More games played in all competitions. Pressure of getting to the finals and winning them. All the travelling and still win the 3 titles.

RasTa

I'd like to change my vote!

8-10

Man United for me, though neither has a patch on van Gaal's Ajax in 1994/95. Unbeaten in the league and Champions League. Never before done or since and neither of these teams will ever do it.

tribesman78

As much as i hate saying it i am going Arsenal. But the one thing that i remember most about it was going to my first united game against Arsenal and beating them stopping there run.:D

event

for me it was arsenal

they had some amazing results in the 03/04 season. They beat liverpool home and away, and were 2-1 down to liverpool at HT, winning 4-2. They beat chelsea home and away. Drew with united twice. Beat Villa home and away and beat and drew with Newcastle (arsenal, chelsea, united, liverpool, newcastle and villa were the top 6). They beat and drew with spurs, their rivals.

Whilst Uniteds run was great, in the league after christmas they drew with chelsea, beat west ham, drew with arsenal, drew with leeds, beat villa. (top 6 were united, arsenal, chelsea, leeds, west ham and villa). They drew with liverpool, their big rivals.

In the cup united beat, Boro, Liverpool and Fulham at home. They drew with Chelsea at home and won 2-0 at the bridge. We all know what happened in the semi and then beat newcastle in the final. In europe they had amazing results.

Whilst United is very impressive, i think arsenals was tougher in the league. I think the standard too in the 03/04 season was much higher than in 98/99

Le King

For a team to be a great team they have to win the Champions League. Arsenal failed to do this. Man United won the treble. If Arsenal had of won the Champions League it might be different. But they failed to do this. United's was the better achievement IMO.

GavRedKing

Arsenal for me, that team was one of the greatest ive ever watched before and since in this league and to go 49 games unbeaten in a league season is remarkable, some of the games they were involved in were really though games. One that stands out is when Middlesborough turned up to Highbury in August/September 04 and went 3- 1 up and as soon as that happened Arsenal went on to destroy them I think 5-3.

Great team, just pips United for me.

meditraitor

As a supporter of neither one I would have to say Arsenal and its the simple reason that Arsenal were magnificent to watch that season..... What football! What Style! I found myself looking forward to the highlights every week to see what piece of magic Arsenal would display.

keane2097

Le King wrote: »

For a team to be a great team they have to win the Champions League. Arsenal failed to do this. Man United won the treble. If Arsenal had of won the Champions League it might be different. But they failed to do this. United's was the better achievement IMO.

Bullshít imo.

Galvasean

On the basis of going on a run I'd say Arsenal's is a slightly better achievement. Yes United factored in european games too, but I think the standard of teams in the Premier League had greatly improved between 98/99 and 03/04 so that means a lot more hard matches to play in the league.
That said, I think winning the treble is better overall than going a league season unbeaten (3 trophies > 1 trophy*), but the question of this thread is based purely on runs, not trophies.

*Yeah, Arsenal were awarded that unique golden Premier League trophy for the achievement, but that doesn't really count.

It's hard to quantify. Going unbeaten in the league when you lose in every other competition is a lot easier than not losing a game in the "business" half of the season.......

Very close. Anyone who says Arsenals is "way" better is a fool though. No offence. But one has to look at the teams each team beat on the run, as well as who they didn't lose to. IIRC, Arsenal didn't beat United in that run of games, and I'm fairly sure they failed to beat some of the other top teams..... realistically, not losing to the top teams and beating your Evertons, Charltons and West Hams etc, is for sure an impressive feat. But United in that unbeaten run beat Inter, Juve, Arsenal, Bayern, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal etc. United also can include 2 major finals as well as high pressure league deciders in this run. Arsenal lost semi finals during this run. United won these key games. So you need to look at the big picture too.

Le King

keane2097 wrote: »

Bullshít imo.

You going to add any more to that than just your usual "I know more than you" condescending reply?

homerjay2005

keane2097 wrote: »

Bullshít imo.

can we please have a proper adult debate/conversation without reverting to that? this thread has so far remained relatively sensible.

last thing we want here is another mickey waving thread, for once something good is there to be debated, a proper discussion about 2 great achievements.

and i reiterate, this is not about the trophies for me. this is about 2 huge unbeaten runs.

arsenal went 4 more, but in only one competition, loosing 5 games during the run.

United did it in all comps.

SlickRic

event wrote: »

They beat liverpool home and away, and were 2-1 down to liverpool at HT, winning 4-2.

ugh thanks for that.

that was the day Thierry officially made Carra his bitch.

event

Deleted User wrote: »

It's hard to quantify. Going unbeaten in the league when you lose in every other competition is a lot easier than not losing a game in the "business" half of the season.......

Very close. Anyone who says Arsenals is "way" better is a fool though. No offence. But one has to look at the teams each team beat on the run, as well as who they didn't lose to. IIRC, Arsenal didn't beat United in that run of games, and I'm fairly sure they failed to beat some of the other top teams..... realistically, not losing to the top teams and beating your Evertons, Charltons and West Hams etc, is for sure an impressive feat. But United in that unbeaten run beat Inter, Juve, Arsenal, Bayern, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal etc. United also can include 2 major finals as well as high pressure league deciders in this run. Arsenal lost semi finals during this run. United won these key games. So you need to look at the big picture too.

nope, check my post

beat liverpool twice, chelsea twice, villa twice, beat newcastle and drew with them. They made up the top 6 that year.

homerjay2005

event wrote: »

for me it was arsenal

they had some amazing results in the 03/04 season. They beat liverpool home and away, and were 2-1 down to liverpool at HT, winning 4-2. They beat chelsea home and away. Drew with united twice. Beat Villa home and away and beat and drew with Newcastle (arsenal, chelsea, united, liverpool, newcastle and villa were the top 6). They beat and drew with spurs, their rivals.

Whilst Uniteds run was great, in the league after christmas they drew with chelsea, beat west ham, drew with arsenal, drew with leeds, beat villa. (top 6 were united, arsenal, chelsea, leeds, west ham and villa). They drew with liverpool, their big rivals.

In the cup united beat, Boro, Liverpool and Fulham at home. They drew with Chelsea at home and won 2-0 at the bridge. We all know what happened in the semi and then beat newcastle in the final. In europe they had amazing results.

Whilst United is very impressive, i think arsenals was tougher in the league. I think the standard too in the 03/04 season was much higher than in 98/99

and united had 45 unbeaten games against not only the top teams in england, but in europe also. some of uniteds wins that year, like liverpool at home, juve away, bayern in the final, arsenal in the semi, will rank up there as the most famous of all time.

and if memory serves me right, arsenal never beat united during their run, it was united that ended it while united beat them also in the fa cup semi in 99 and 04, when both runs took place.

event

event wrote: »

nope, check my post

beat liverpool twice, chelsea twice, villa twice, beat newcastle and drew with them. They made up the top 6 that year.

Fair enough I stand corrected. They didn't beat United though. And they lost pressure cup games to Chelsea and United in that run too. So it wasn't a consecutive run.....

keane2097

Le King wrote: »

You going to add any more to that than just your usual "I know more than you" condescending reply?

That Arsenal team are clearly a great team.

QED

keane2097

homerjay2005 wrote: »

can we please have a proper adult debate/conversation without reverting to that? this thread has so far remained relatively sensible.

last thing we want here is another mickey waving thread, once something good is there to be debated.

Just shooting the breeze man, feel free to hit the report post button imo.

Le King

Well if it's not about trophies then it changes my thinking about the winner. However, the all competitions really does it for United. Two fantastic teams. I think I'd let United shade it here.

Gone Drinking

newbie2 wrote: »

45 < 49

IMO

1 < 3

IMO

Seriously though, two very great achievements. Made even more special by the fact that they probably won't be replicated for a long time.. the way football today is going.

I can see the points to both arguments and its tough to call, but at the end of the day, United takes it for me.

keane2097

Le King wrote: »

Well if it's not about trophies then it changes my thinking about the winner. However, the all competitions really does it for United. Two fantastic teams. I think I'd let United shade it here.

But not two great teams?

yahoo_moe

People forget the huge amount of pressure on Arsenal to go unbeaten after the New Year in '04 though. Yes, United had pressure to win trophies during their run but Arsenal were being talked about every week in terms of an unbeaten season. I think we drew 3 out of 4 that February and I remember thinking we could well go unbeaten but lose the league, it seemed that big a burden. So it's not just 49 games vs. 45.

Also, I think Arsenal were comfortably better than their rivals that season, whereas United won their trophies on very fine margins: the late goals against Bayern and the epic FA Cup semi against Arsenal. I'm still convinced that that semi decided which of the two teams would win the double that year and United just shaded it (1 point in the league, extra-time replay in the cup semi). But the European thing makes the meaning of 'rivals' different so it's hard to compare.

My heart says Arsenal, but I'm not sure I can really separate them if I'm honest.

event

homerjay2005 wrote: »

and united had 45 unbeaten games against not only the top teams in england, but in europe also. some of uniteds wins that year, like liverpool at home, juve away, bayern in the final, arsenal in the semi, will rank up there as the most famous of all time.

and if memory serves me right, arsenal never beat united during their run, it was united that ended it while united beat them also in the fa cup semi in 99 and 04, when both runs took place.

Yeah, the Juve result alone was pretty amazing.
And no, Arsenal didnt beat United. but in the 03/04 season, chelsea finished higher than united and they beat Chelsea twice that season. not beating United doesnt come into it for me. Sure in Uniteds run they didnt beat the MK Dons, doesnt really mean anything.

Deleted User wrote: »

Fair enough I stand corrected. They didn't beat United though. And they lost pressure cup games to Chelsea and United in that run too. So it wasn't a consecutive run.....

again, for me it doesnt matter that they didnt beat united. They beat their closest league rivals twice.

And it was a consecutive run in the league, sure thats what we are talking about.

yahoo_moe

homerjay2005 wrote: »

arsenal never beat united during their run, it was united that ended it

With a dive though, in fairness

Warper

I didnt even know Utd went unbeaten for 49 games or whatever.

I think the thread title should really be changed to : which is better?:

Utd's Treble or Arsenal going through a League campaign unbeaten?

For me I would take the treble as that is 3 trophies compared to just 1.

flas

for me it has to be the arsenal one, to start of in auguest and continue through to the following auguest not losing a league game is amazing. uniteds run was class aswell, for the 5 months or that, their best moment came against juve in that semi final, where as in the final they were outplayed all over the park for 90 minutes and did not deserve to win that champions league at all but they got the biggest slice of luck a team has ever got and did win it, but its just the starting a league and continueing right the way through to not being beaten that shades it for me.

Mars Bar

Warper wrote: »

I didnt even know Utd went unbeaten for 49 games or whatever.

I think the thread title should really be changed to : which is better?:

Utd's Treble or Arsenal going through a League campaign unbeaten?

For me I would take the treble as that is 3 trophies compared to just 1.

It's not supposed to be about the trophies. That's why the title is as it is.

Personally, I would go for United's.

It's very hard to go to many different countries to play teams with differing styles and go unbeaten.
Arsenal played football that conquered English football, a very slick style of play which was very, very nice to watch. It did not do its job on the mainland however.

flas

flas wrote: »

for me it has to be the arsenal one, to start of in auguest and continue through to the following auguest not losing a league game is amazing. uniteds run was class aswell, for the 5 months or that, their best moment came against juve in that semi final, where as in the final they were outplayed all over the park for 90 minutes and did not deserve to win that champions league at all but they got the biggest slice of luck a team has ever got and did win it, but its just the starting a league and continueing right the way through to not being beaten that shades it for me.

I'm sorry but this post is just so bitter I don't even know where to start.

United run was more than 5 months.

The CL Final was played without their 2 core players... Keane and Scholes. They were outplayed for a large part of the game yes, but they weren't lucky goals. There was no fortune involved, a ball didn't bounce in off someones ass.... players took shots, and scored, there wasn;t even a deflection. The only "luck" in that game came from the deflected free kick that gave Bayern the lead. Get your facts straight.

PHB

For me, the reason I'd pick United is that I value winning things above unbeaten. Chelsea have beaten Arsenals points tally twice (with 95 and 91 vs. 90 for Arsenal) since that unbeaten season, despite having lost in that season. For me, that's more impressive than an unbeaten season. In a league, the most impressive thing that you can do is rack up higher points. If you gave me the option of 90 points or 89 points unbeaten, I'd pick 90 points every time.

As such, in terms of the league, for me I never really was especially impressed by Arsenals league win any more than I was when Chelsea got 95 points. Both were fantastic league performances, but historic isn't really how I'd describe Chelsea's 95 points and I don't think many on here would either.

For me, the treble was special. It was special because we won the three big trophies. Arsenal's was special because they won the league. But the unbeaten thing doesn't really hold much mustard for me. For me, Chelsea were more impressive in the season that they got 95 points.

yahoo_moe

mars bar wrote: »

Arsenal played football that conquered English football, a very slick style of play which was very, very nice to watch. It did not do its job on the mainland however.

Do you know who Arsenal went out of that year's CL to?

Hint: It was a team from about 6 miles away.

Hint 2: It was to a goal in the 87th minute of the second leg.

I don't mind anyone picking United in this thread, but at least it should be for the right reasons.

yahoo_moe

PHB wrote: »

the unbeaten thing doesn't really hold much mustard for me.

Ah here, you're normally more sensible than this.

Chelsea's 95-point season wasn't historic because it's a 'record' - but surely the first and only team in the modern English game to go a top-flight season unbeaten can only be described as historic?

You can say the treble was more impressive (even though that's not really the OP's question) but do you really not think something that's only been achieved once is historic?

Essien

keane2097 wrote: »

Bullshít imo.

I second this, Champions Leagues are won and lost by incredibly fine margins. The greatness of Arsenals invincibles shouldn't be discredited because they never won the Champions League.

keane2097

Essien wrote: »

I second this, Champions Leagues are won and lost by incredibly fine margins. The greatness of Arsenals invincibles shouldn't be discredited because they never won the Champions League.

Some fairly shít teams have won the ECL as well.

Frisbee

Certainly a tough one to break down for me.

Obviously as an Arsenal fan I should pick Arsenal. Going an entire league season unbeaten is a fantastic achievement and not only did we do it, but we did so beating the majority of our nearest competitors for the title. On top of that we played the best football any team has played in the EPL imo. That team was amazing, Henry, Pires and Ljungberg were phenomenal that year even more so than previously we had seen of them. We were absolutely devestating both on the counter and when in possession. Watching us win the ball in defence and within two or three quickfire one touch passes seeing Henry wheel away in celebration and the ball in the back of the opposition net was a site I never got tired of seeing and we saw a lot of that year.

People talk about Arsenal not doing it in high pressure games. Fair enough point, we lost in Europe and the FA Cup, but to say any of our league games weren't high pressure is selling us short. As Christmas hit Sky/MotD were starting to put pressure on us getting that unbeaten season. Obviously this isn't the same kind of pressure as a CL Final but expectations were certainly mounting.



On the other side of the argument Uniteds run was equally astounding. Going that many games unbeaten across several competitions with different playing styles, beating the best Europe had to offer, winning the big one without their two most influential players and taking home an unprecented treble is some going and a real testament to both the players and Ferguson.


Honestly I can't pick between them. As an Arsenal fan I should vote for us but the only thing that would shade it for me would be because that's who I support so I'm not going to vote on this as I really can't seperate them.