Which was the greater Unbeaten Achievement - United 98/99 V Arsenal 03/04

nullzero

event wrote: »

for me it was arsenal

they had some amazing results in the 03/04 season. They beat liverpool home and away, and were 2-1 down to liverpool at HT, winning 4-2. They beat chelsea home and away. Drew with united twice. Beat Villa home and away and beat and drew with Newcastle (arsenal, chelsea, united, liverpool, newcastle and villa were the top 6). They beat and drew with spurs, their rivals.

Whilst Uniteds run was great, in the league after christmas they drew with chelsea, beat west ham, drew with arsenal, drew with leeds, beat villa. (top 6 were united, arsenal, chelsea, leeds, west ham and villa). They drew with liverpool, their big rivals.

In the cup united beat, Boro, Liverpool and Fulham at home. They drew with Chelsea at home and won 2-0 at the bridge. We all know what happened in the semi and then beat newcastle in the final. In europe they had amazing results.

Whilst United is very impressive, i think arsenals was tougher in the league. I think the standard too in the 03/04 season was much higher than in 98/99

That final sentence is a joke right?
98/99 was the tightest title race in Premier League history, the standard that year was amazing, When Arsenal managed their unbeaten streak United were in serious decline and Chelsea were still in the formative stages of the Abramovich era, neither of those sides were seriously challenging Arsenal that season. 98/99 was a season of top class sides battling with each other right down to the wire.
Arsenals achievment was superb, but given the level of competition as well as the ultimate success you'd have to say United's run was better.

MickShamrock

I went with Arsenal. That run was amazing.

Paul Tergat

Its 31-31 as im typing this and I havent voted and im still struggling to decide which is the better achievement.

Doing it in the league is just incredible consistency but across competitions and leading to the treble is immense. hmmmm

Fuhrer

Arsenals league form was better but Uniteds season was far superiour.

PHB

yahoo_moe wrote: »

Ah here, you're normally more sensible than this.

Chelsea's 95-point season wasn't historic because it's a 'record' - but surely the first and only team in the modern English game to go a top-flight season unbeaten can only be described as historic?

You can say the treble was more impressive (even though that's not really the OP's question) but do you really not think something that's only been achieved once is historic?

I don't judge league performances based on the number of losses. I judge it based on the number of points. Btw, so does the PL.

A team that gets 95 points wins a league against a team that gets 90 points but does so unbeaten. Nobody would disagree with that.

The only way that it's better is if you have different values or you judge the leagues to be different.
I favour attacking football over possession football, so personally a team that racks up more points (and therefore wins) is more impressive than a team that prevent draws.
Can't say I think that the league in 04 05 was much different to the league in 03 04.

Mars Bar

yahoo_moe wrote: »

Do you know who Arsenal went out of that year's CL to?

Hint: It was a team from about 6 miles away.

Hint 2: It was to a goal in the 87th minute of the second leg.

I don't mind anyone picking United in this thread, but at least it should be for the right reasons.

So then, they couldn't juggle CL and EPL. Seems like I was right to go for United then.

LuckyLloyd

The top to bottom quality of the Premier League was much higher in 2003 / 2004 than it was in 1998 / 1999. There is also the reality that Arsenal's achievement was done against a balanced schedule, facing every team home and away. There were more games involved in their task.

Ultimately though, Barcelona have achieved what Utd did. No - one has come near matching Arsenal. You can make arguments about pressure games, business end of the season, etc: but when weighting respective achievments in life the difficulty of repeating it has to be a primary consideration.

Let's not forget that Arsenal played simply stunning football all season either. Absolutely glorious to watch.

Chardee MacDennis

arsenal just edge united for me but was a very close call..

event

PHB wrote: »

For me, the reason I'd pick United is that I value winning things above unbeaten........But the unbeaten thing doesn't really hold much mustard for me.

*checks title of thread*

Yup, which is the greater unbeaten achievement

keane2097

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Ultimately though, Barcelona have achieved what Utd did. No - one has come near matching Arsenal. You can make arguments about pressure games, business end of the season, etc: but when weighting respective achievments in life the difficulty of repeating it has to be a primary consideration.

This is a very telling point IMO.

United's achievement has been equalled or bettered in each of the last two seasons.

Arsenal's was completely once off.

If going unbeaten in your domestic league was easier to do than winning a treble this would obv not be the case.

keane2097

keane2097 wrote: »

This is a very telling point IMO.

United's achievement has been equalled or bettered in each of the last two seasons.

Arsenal's was completely once off.

If going unbeaten in your domestic league was easier to do than winning a treble this would obv not be the case.

No it wasn't. Milan and Ajax have both done it and they're only the ones I remember.

Frisbee

re: The uniqueness of both achievements.

Arsenal's has not been replicated since, nor has anyone even come close to doing so really. However Arsenal's isn't completely unique considering PNE did it previously in England as well as other teams on the continent (Milan).

United's has been replicated and in a much more emphatic matter.


This is the point that could sway me more towards Arsenal than my natural bias already is.

KaiserGunner

PHB wrote: »

I don't judge league performances based on the number of losses. I judge it based on the number of points. Btw, so does the PL.

A team that gets 95 points wins a league against a team that gets 90 points but does so unbeaten. Nobody would disagree with that.

The only way that it's better is if you have different values or you judge the leagues to be different.
I favour attacking football over possession football, so personally a team that racks up more points (and therefore wins) is more impressive than a team that prevent draws.
Can't say I think that the league in 04 05 was much different to the league in 03 04.

Arsenal won the league with four games to spare ffs and understandably took their foot off the gas for the last four games and dropped a few points that they wouldnt have if the league was still on the line.Btw Man Utd only got 79 points in their treble season so judging by your logic than the Arsenal team with 90 points in 03-04 is better than Man Utd 98-99.

Le King

keane2097 wrote: »

This is a very telling point IMO.

United's achievement has been equalled or bettered in each of the last two seasons.

Arsenal's was completely once off.

If going unbeaten in your domestic league was easier to do than winning a treble this would obv not be the case.

Really? Milan went unbeaten for 58 games in 1992-93. Celtic for 68 and Steaua Bucuresti went unbeaten for 104.

Plus the Milan team got to the Champions League final.

Pure ignorance outside of the EPL astounds me sometimes.

herbieflowers

I never actually knew that Man United had an unbeaten run that season.

Both are impressive, particulalry in light of the fact that Arsenal had won the league in 98 and United in 2003. Arsenal for me, though, it's probably unprecedented in modern football for a side to achieve that feat and while not playing an attritional, overly-tactical style.

herbieflowers

Le King wrote: »

Really? Milan went unbeaten for 58 games in 1992-93.

They lost two league games that season

keane2097

Le King wrote: »

Really? Milan went unbeaten for 58 games in 1992-93. Celtic for 68 and Steaua Bucuresti went unbeaten for 104.

Plus the Milan team got to the Champions League final.

Pure ignorance outside of the EPL astounds me sometimes.

Going unbeaten in Scotland and Romania is on the same level is it?

GTFO tbh - any excuse to throw a few digs :rolleyes:

The Milan one is admittedly impressive, sorry for being 6 at the time.

keane2097

herbieflowers wrote: »

They lost two league games that season

lol

All I can hear in my mind now is Michael Jackson shrieking "No - your just ignorant" :pac:

Le King

herbieflowers wrote: »

They lost two league games that season

Sorry 1991-92, ended then. Seriously....

DOC09UNAM

keane2097 wrote: »

Bareclona already bettered it no?

Barcelona and inter both won the fa cup and premier league?

Impressive haul.

SlickRic

herbieflowers wrote: »

They lost two league games that season

he probably meant the 91/92 season.

they were unbeaten that season.

Le King

keane2097 wrote: »

Going unbeaten in Scotland and Romania is on the same level is it?

GTFO tbh - any excuse to throw a few digs :rolleyes:

The Milan one is admittedly impressive, sorry for being 6 at the time.

Never said it was. You just threw out a statement that it was a once off. Bullshít.

Nice to know you never grew up btw.

keane2097 wrote: »

lol

All I can hear in my mind now is Michael Jackson shrieking "No - your just ignorant" :pac:

Got the year wrong! Big deal!

keane2097

DOC09UNAM wrote: »

Barcelona and inter both won the fa cup and premier league?

Impressive haul.

Yeah it was class alright.

keane2097

Le King wrote: »

Never said it was. You just threw out a statement that it was a once off. Bullshít.

Nice to know you never grew up btw.

Got the year wrong! Big deal!

Pedantism begets pedantism love, sad but true.

Frisbee

DOC09UNAM wrote: »

Barcelona and inter both won the fa cup and premier league?

Impressive haul.

Grow up would you?

SlickRic

lads, i don't want to be throwing out infractions, and i don't want this thread getting sidetracked.

keep it civil and on topic.

THIS HAS BEEN A PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT COURTESY OF YOUR FRIENDLY NEIGHBOURHOOD MOD.

herbieflowers

Does every thread have do descend into childish sniping? Reminds me of Henry Kissinger's quote about academic disputes being so bitter because there's so little at stake!

DOC09UNAM

Frisbee wrote: »

Grow up would you?

Arsenal Fan?

Leaf, book, take it.

I was making a perfectly valid point, it lead United to being the only team in Britain to do the treble.

SlickRic

DOC09UNAM wrote: »

Arsenal Fan?

Leaf, book, take it.

I was making a perfectly valid point, it lead United to being the only team in Britain to do the treble.

i was hoping you were joking.

the point is that the achievement is not unique of League, Cup, European Cup; and has been done more frequently around Europe than the unbeaten season.

keane2097

DOC09UNAM wrote: »

Arsenal Fan?

Leaf, book, take it.

I was making a perfectly valid point, it lead United to being the only team in Britain to do the treble.

It's not a valid point at all.

Inter and Barca's trebles are extremely similar in terms of the level of competition they were up against to achieve them.

The achievements are clearly comparable, so the "only team in Britain" schtick is about as important as the only team that play in red.

Frisbee

DOC09UNAM wrote: »

Arsenal Fan?

Leaf, book, take it.

I was making a perfectly valid point, it lead United to being the only team in Britain to do the treble.

You were being pedantic. Obviously Milan haven't won the FA Cup, but they've won the Italian counterpart which was quite obviously what he was saying.


Grow Up.

homerjay2005

why is what barcelona and inter did, better than uniteds treble?

keane2097

homerjay2005 wrote: »

why is what barcelona and inter did, better than uniteds treble?

Barcelona won six trophies that season IIRC...

i.e. their treble is the same, but they did more on top.

SlickRic

homerjay2005 wrote: »

why is what barcelona and inter did, better than uniteds treble?

did anyone say they were better?

EDIT: Fris did say it was more emphatic i suppose.

homerjay2005

keane2097 wrote: »

Barcelona won six trophies that season IIRC...

i.e. their treble is the same, but they did more on top.

go on them, name them please.. considerin united only can enter 4 trophies in one season, the comparison is pretty useless.

anyway, how many times have i to say, this is about unbeaten achievements.

this is united going an actual unbeaten run of 45 games, in all comps against arsenal going 49 in one comp.

if we were to take one season, its 38 v 33, with arsenal loosing 5 other games during that period, united loosing 0.

Qwerty27

Lads, great thread, look how close the voting is at the minute.....dont ruin it by childish sniping and slagging.....

keane2097

homerjay2005 wrote: »

go on them, name them please.. considerin united only can enter 4 trophies in one season, the comparison is pretty useless.

Can't name them - I'm just remembering what I heard at the time *shrug*

yahoo_moe

PHB wrote: »

I don't judge league performances based on the number of losses. I judge it based on the number of points. Btw, so does the PL ... The only way that it's better is if you have different values or you judge the leagues to be different.

That's not what I was saying though. You said it wasn't historic - whatever your values, how do you say that?

I would also rather 95 points in any given season over 90, all else being equal, but history comes into it as an extra factor just as trophies do. So I might rather 85 points and a title over Real Madrid's season last year, say. But likewise, I'd trade a few points for the history of going unbeaten (as it also came with a league win).

Would you rather a 90-point unbeaten season or a 90-points W30 D0 L8 season? Even if you wouldn't, I still say it's historic

event

DOC09UNAM wrote: »

Arsenal Fan?

Leaf, book, take it.

I was making a perfectly valid point, it lead United to being the only team in Britain to do the treble.

no

Celtic won the league, cup, league cup and the european cup in 67.

obviously they didnt win the fa cup or EPL, because they didnt enter them. But they won their own quadruple. So United arent the only team in Britain to do so. Doesnt take away from the achievement though

yahoo_moe

keane2097 wrote: »

Can't name them - I'm just remembering what I heard at the time *shrug*

Two of the extras were the World Club Championship and the European Super-Cup. Both of which were trophies that I believe United competed in on the basis of what they achieved in '99 (I think they skipped the FA Cup the next year to go to Brazil or something?)

But some of this is just dragging down a thread that could've been quite decent.

Warper

mars bar wrote: »

It's not supposed to be about the trophies. That's why the title is as it is.

Personally, I would go for United's.

It's very hard to go to many different countries to play teams with differing styles and go unbeaten.
Arsenal played football that conquered English football, a very slick style of play which was very, very nice to watch. It did not do its job on the mainland however.

Well if its not about trophies then Arsenal's achievement is the better one. The pressure would have grown game by game to acheive an unbeaten league season. Not many would have even been aware of Utd going unbeaten in whatever amount of matches, everyone was looking at them going for the treble. It is extremely rare to go through a whole League season unbeaten and that includes every League. Arsenal quite easily so.

homerjay2005

keane2097 wrote: »

Can't name them - I'm just remembering what I heard at the time *shrug*

they probably won the copa del ray, the european super cup and the world club cup, the following season, hence 6 trophies in 2009. if we want to disect things like that, it can be said that in a calender year, may 2008 to may 2009, united won 5 trophies also (2 leagues, WCC, CL and CC) and went on to defend the CC and get to the final of the CL, playing also in the charity shield and super cup final. or quiet simply, its all got f8ck all to do with this poll, the poll is about united 99 v arsenal 2004.

if you want to start counting pre season friendlies and one off matches as trophies, then your going down the route of liverpool claiming 5 trophies in 2002 or 2003 or what ever year it was.

Warper

keane2097 wrote: »

It's not a valid point at all.

Inter and Barca's trebles are extremely similar in terms of the level of competition they were up against to achieve them.

The achievements are clearly comparable, so the "only team in Britain" schtick is about as important as the only team that play in red.

Barca won every trophy possible in one season and exceeds both of these "unbeaten runs".

SlickRic

homerjay2005 wrote: »

liverpool claiming 5 trophies in 2002 or 2003 or what ever year it was.

ah, you know it was 2001...

you're a big Liverpool loving softie at heart, stop fighting it.

homerjay2005

so anyway, back on topic.....

which was the better unbeaten run and why? voting is very close and alot of neutrals voting i would assume, so its really hard to call.

personally i think uniteds was better as it was an actual unbeaten run, arsenals contained 5 defeats in other comps, uniteds didnt.

keane2097

homerjay2005 wrote: »

they probably won the copa del ray, the european super cup and the world club cup, the following season, hence 6 trophies in 2009. if we want to disect things like that, it can be said that in a calender year, may 2008 to may 2009, united won 5 trophies also (2 leagues, WCC, CL and CC) and went on to defend the CC and get to the final. or quiet simply, its all got f8ck all to do with this poll, the poll is about united 99 v arsenal 2004.

if you want to start counting pre season friendlies and one off matches as trophies, then your going down the route of liverpool claiming 5 trophies in 2002 or 2003 or what ever year it was.

You probably shouldn't have asked the question if you didn't want to talk about it.

Anyway...

My few is basically that Arsenal's achievement is less repeatable, which makes it more prestigious.

In 99, United's treble was way out there, but as time goes by it's losing some of its lustre because it's been done a couple of more times.

DOC09UNAM

Everyone keeps saying arsenal's run was less repeatable, etc etc.

How many other teams have gone on a 45 match run in ALL competitions?

SlickRic

homerjay2005 wrote: »

personally i think uniteds was better as it was an actual unbeaten run, arsenals contained 5 defeats in other comps, uniteds didnt.

keane2097 wrote: »

In 99, United's treble was way out there, but as time goes by it's losing some of its lustre because it's been done a couple of more times.

these are the two arguments at work really.

it's the unbeaten runs that the OP wants debated primarily i think.

therefore, the trophies won should be an afterthought.

is the fact Utd went around Europe, as well as at home, for 45 games unbeaten more impressive than Arsenal doing it in the League for 49 games?

either way, it's much of a muchness. i'd still lean towards Arsenal, because the football was some of the best i've ever seen, and there's something a bit more special about doing it in unbeaten in your home league, while winning it, for a full season IMO.

but it really is too close to call.

Warper

homerjay2005 wrote: »

so anyway, back on topic.....

which was the better unbeaten run and why? voting is very close and alot of neutrals voting i would assume, so its really hard to call.

personally i think uniteds was better as it was an actual unbeaten run, arsenals contained 5 defeats in other comps, uniteds didnt.

Utd.'s run didnt mean anything whereas Arsenal's did. Utd were after the trophies. People were talking about Arsenal's run in the League and questioning whether they could go through the entire League unbeaten. No one was talking about Utd's unbeaten run. People were all talking about the Treble. Utd could have lost a few games and it wouldn't have mattered once they won the trophies, which they did. There was a lot more pressure on Arsenal remaining unbeaten in the League than Utd remaining unbeaten. Who ever remembers this unbeaten Utd run anyways? Practically no-one whereas everyone remembers Arsenal going through the whole League unbeaten.

Warper

DOC09UNAM wrote: »

Everyone keeps saying arsenal's run was less repeatable, etc etc.

How many other teams have gone on a 45 match run in ALL competitions?

Plenty - Celtic, Real Madrid, AC Milan, Juventus, Ajax, Barcelona to name but a few.