Which was the greater Unbeaten Achievement - United 98/99 V Arsenal 03/04

Blazer

For me it's Arsenal's achievement of being unbeaten in the league for a whole season.
Yes..United's achievement was tremendous but don't forget this included Coca-cola cup, FA cup and CL..
Some easy games in there for United.. while Arsenal had tougher games against premier league opposition
I'd like to see the list of United's teams versus the teams Arsenal played.

astrofool

I think Arsenal's was the greater unbeaten achievement.

Utd's three trophies was a far greater achievement, the unbeaten run was a side note in the trophies that were won.

Sc@recrow

Sc@recrow wrote: »

For me it's Arsenal's achievement of being unbeaten in the league for a whole season.
Yes..United's achievement was tremendous but don't forget this included Coca-cola cup, FA cup and CL..
Some easy games in there for United.. while Arsenal had tougher games against premier league opposition
I'd like to see the list of United's teams versus the teams Arsenal played.

The both played similar Premier League opposition.

Uniteds cup run had Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool and Newcastle (before they were sh*t) and their CL run had Barcelona, Bayern, Inter and Juve..... and then Bayern again. They also had to play a somewhat weakened team in the FA Cup Final. I say somewhat as they had Keane and Scholes available due to their suspensions for the CL Final. And obviously the suspensions for the final.

To say Arsenal had the tougher opposition is ludicrous tbh.

yahoo_moe

homerjay2005 wrote: »

would they rather -

an unbeaten run leading to a treble or an unbeaten league season?

See the difference for me is that United's unbeaten run wasn't as directly linked to the treble as Arsenal's was to the '04 league. United's run was probably a 50-50 split or so in terms of the '98-'99 season and '99-'00? And half of United's treble season isn't included in their unbeaten run... it's likely the Chelsea season in '05 that people have mentioned - their unbeaten run from October on was a big part of their league win but they were never close to going the whole season unbeaten.

You're the OP so you know whether you were focussing more on the 'unbeaten' part of the question or the 'achievement' part but that's really the key here.

For what it's worth, I'd take a treble over a league any day (obviously), and same goes for unbeaten treble over unbeaten league. But that's not what United in '99 versus Arsenal in '04 really is.

yahoo_moe

homerjay2005 wrote: »

to dismiss that team is incredible to be honest, bordering on laughable. there also seems to be a huge superior complex with certain arsenal fans

I don't really see anyone 'dismissing' that United side like you keep saying, though. For me, it's almost a United fan persecution complex anytime anyone picks Arsenal.

Out of curiosity, when you set up the thread, did you already think United's was the better achievement?

Also, for what it's worth, a lot of the crap in here is coming from people who don't post in the Arsenal thread, so I can only assume they're not Arsenal fans. Then again, that makes it anti-Utd trolling so maybe persecution complex isn't quite a fair phrase to use.

homerjay2005

yahoo_moe wrote: »

See the difference for me is that United's unbeaten run wasn't as directly linked to the treble as Arsenal's was to the '04 league. United's run was probably a 50-50 split or so in terms of the '98-'99 season and '99-'00? And half of United's treble season isn't included in their unbeaten run... it's likely the Chelsea season in '05 that people have mentioned - their unbeaten run from October on was a big part of their league win but they were never close to going the whole season unbeaten.

you are wrong there, uniteds 45 game run, contained 33 games in the treble season and is pretty much exactly the same as arsenals, their 49 game run was 38 games in the league winning season. arsenals run was 5 games more, and theres a 4 game difference when the seasons are compared, so its only 1 game. united went 12 games in 99/00 and arsenal did 2 plus 9.

i am a bit confused about the "chelsea never went close bit", they lost one game. thats as close as you can get to be honest.

keane2097

homerjay2005 wrote: »

i am a bit confused about the "chelsea never went close bit", they lost one game. thats as close as you can get to be honest.

It's clearly not that simple.

Losing the last game fo the season is going infinitely closer than you can go if you lose the first game of the season.

That's very obvious imo.

ROCKMAN

For me its a very close call but the fact that ...

For me as a UTD fan , its really is a case of " Oh yeah that was a great run of games for us " at the time it kind of went unnoticed if you know what I mean,
On the other hand mention the word " Unbeaten " and every man and his dog thinks of and knows of Arsenal's achievement .
So for this very feeble reason Arsenal just shade it,

One for Frisbee and Co, Who where the players with the most appearance/starts for Arsenal that season ????

L'prof

ROCKMAN wrote: »

For me its a very close call but the fact that ...

For me as a UTD fan , its really is a case of " Oh yeah that was a great run of games for us " at the time it kind of went unnoticed if you know what I mean,
On the other hand mention the word " Unbeaten " and every man and his dog thinks of and knows of Arsenal's achievement .
So for this very feeble reason Arsenal just shade it,

One for Frisbee and Co, Who where the players with the most appearance/starts for Arsenal that season ????

Here ya go. With 10 players on 40+ games that season, its no wonder we were so impressive that season and a massive indication as to what's gone wrong since. Not the only thing of course, but I'd cream myself if we had that few injuries again any time soon!

gosplan

Fuhrer wrote: »

Unprecedendant: "without previous instance; never before known or experienced; unexampled or unparalleled:"


Their trebles happened after.


But PSV, Ajax & Celtic have done equivalent trebles beforehand

Misreading: "reading incorrectly or not getting something, when combined with boards.ie frequently leads to smartass quotes from online dictionaries"

DOC09UNAM wrote: »

treble that may never be matched.

yahoo_moe

homerjay2005 wrote: »

you are wrong there, uniteds 45 game run, contained 33 games in the treble season and is pretty much exactly the same as arsenals, their 49 game run was 38 games in the league winning season. arsenals run was 5 games more, and theres a 4 game difference when the seasons are compared, so its only 1 game. united went 12 games in 99/00 and arsenal did 2 plus 9.

Well I did ask with a question mark

Also, 33/45 is going at it backwards really beacuse that's how big a part the treble-winning season played in the unbeaten run.

By my count, Utd played 59 games to win those three competitions, of which 33 was an unbeaten run. So 44% of the games it took them to win the treble weren't part of the unbeaten run if you get me.

PS Cheers for the stats though - suppose it shows how many more games teams play after Christmas compared to before.

flas

Deleted User wrote: »

Here's what you said:



- 5 month run - wrong.

- "biggest slice of luck ever" - ROFL - coming from 1 nil down in the last minute would be as much about heart, perseverence and grit, as it is to do with luck. As I said, United scored 2 goals that came from attempts at goal that didn't deflect or go in off the post, or come from dodgy freekicks or offsides that weren't spotted. Bayerns goal came from a deflected free kick.

Considering Uniteds midfield of that era was:

Giggs--Scholes--Keane--Beckham

and when you consider how fantastic a unit those 4 were, you look at the midfield that started the Final:

Blomqvist--Butt---Beckham--Giggs

That's missing 2 of the 4, and the 2 that are there were played out of position out of necessity. So they would have needed luck. Bare in mind we played Bayern 3 times that season, 2 draws and the final. Nothing between the 2. And Bayern were also going for the treble in that game.

I've no problem with you picking Asenal in this thread. For me its a photo finish anyway. What I do have a problem with is the way you are subtly (or not so subtly as it is) trying to discredit United in your post.




For what it's worth, I think there's so little between the 2. Both sides played outstanding football.

Pires, Henry and Vieira were in their primes at that stage and were so hard to deal with.

United at that time at the previously mentioned midfield quartet as well as the Yorke and Cole partnership at its dazzling best. Remember the following season that partnership ran 6 past Arsenal at Old Trafford!

2 great teams. Nothing between the 2 achievements IMO.

clever editing, i must say. what did i say after this? the 5 months or that? was it not the period of decemeber to may we are discussing no? i understand that its 5 and a half months unbeaten, thats why i left it a little vague but go ahead, edit it to suit yourself.

to me it was lucky, a freak ending that 9 times out of 10 times a team will not lose a champions league final in the last 3 or 4 minutes of the game, thats what i was meanig by luck.

i have never in my post tried to discredit this achievement, just to me it was a freak result. did you in all honesty think that in the 89th minute that united would win it? i would actually like you to answer this please? if you are indeed a united supporter did you not feel lucky to the get win in the last 3 or 4 minutes? what ever about the nature of the goals, im just want to know your thoughts on this if you can!? most united supporters i know were hoping beyond hope for a goal to take it into injury time, the win was beyond their expectations at that time!

in case your wondering i was actually thrilled for the likes of keane and scholes that the united team won in the end because i thought with their performances in the semi final 2nd leg that they deserved to go home from bacrelona with a winners medal.

newbie2

This poll is open a day and a half.

Arsenal are miles ahead.

I hope the OP got what they were looking for.

:cool:

/Thread

L'prof

newbie2 wrote: »

This poll is open a day and a half.

Arsenal are miles ahead.

I hope the OP got what they were looking for.

:cool:

/Thread

Miles???

newbie2

L'prof wrote: »

Miles???

Is 15 points not miles?
:rolleyes:

SlickRic

newbie2 wrote: »

This poll is open a day and a half.

Arsenal are miles ahead.

I hope the OP got what they were looking for.

:cool:

/Thread

a good debate?

yeah, he did for a while.

and it's not miles.

considering 180 people have voted so far, 15 votes seperating them is f*ck all...55%-45%.

and i personally think it's a bit wide of a gap; it'd be more accurate a representation if there were 5 or 6 votes in it.

L'prof

newbie2 wrote: »

Is 8.28% not miles?
:rolleyes:

No.

SantryRed

I honestly can't choose between them.

There are pros to each side which equal out.

Arsenal achieved a magnificent record that season which could easily never be equalled again. Then for United, they achieved an unprecedented treble which could easily never be equalled again the way some teams are treating the Fa Cup.

Another pro for Arsenal was the amazing football they played that year, it was exciting and breathtaking to watch. They absolutely destroyed some teams in the middle part of that season. To counter this United's run had the excitement of late goals and miracle comebacks. Liverpool at home in the FA Cup where they scored twice late on, Schemeichals last minute penalty save in the cup replay and then the exploits in Europe to go with that.

I honestly can't decide

3hn2givr7mx1sc

newbie2 wrote: »

Is 15 points not miles?
:rolleyes:

You can't be any older than 12, if you think that roughly 8% is miles of a gap in a poll where almost 200 people voted.

lordgoat

flas wrote: »

i have never in my post tried to discredit this achievement, just to me it was a freak result. did you in all honesty think that in the 89th minute that united would win it? i would actually like you to answer this please? if you are indeed a united supporter did you not feel lucky to the get win in the last 3 or 4 minutes? what ever about the nature of the goals, im just want to know your thoughts on this if you can!? most united supporters i know were hoping beyond hope for a goal to take it into injury time, the win was beyond their expectations at that time!

Being 100% honest i did. When Beckham put his hand up at the corner flag I knew it was coming. 99 was our year. A special year that won't be forgotten.

Famous commentary, well for a Red.

Can Manchester United Score? They always score.

DOC09UNAM

gosplan wrote: »

Misreading: "reading incorrectly or not getting something, when combined with boards.ie frequently leads to smartass quotes from online dictionaries"

That treble hasn't been done again, nor was it done before?

We are talking about English football.

newbie2

baz2009 wrote: »

You can't be any older than 12, if you think that roughly 8% is miles of a gap in a poll where almost 200 people voted.

Jesus - does anybody understand what this smiley is? :rolleyes:

FWIW I am 12 and joined boards when I was 6. :rolleyes:

3hn2givr7mx1sc

newbie2 wrote: »

Jesus - does anybody understand what this smiley is? :rolleyes:

FWIW I am 12 and joined boards when I was 6. :rolleyes:

I understand that people who can't make a point properly have to resort to the :rolleyes: smiley.

Mars Bar

I have said it before and I'll say it again, that :rolleyes: smiley should be ****ed out on it's ass never to return.

gosplan

DOC09UNAM wrote: »

That treble hasn't been done again, nor was it done before?

We are talking about English football.

You could argue that distinction but that's not what his quip was about.

I just hate that whole 'I'm pasting the definition of a word up because you've used it incorrectly' bollix. He misunderstood my comment and decided to give me an English lesson.

Now, you could argue that the treble wasn't done before and is unlikely to be done again. However, if you're including the European Cup then I would argue that a treble has been done since.



Also, the quality of the other teams in the PL has a big bearing on the possibility of repeating it. I accept that it was an awesome Man United team, simply awesome, but 79 points wouldn't win you sh1t nowadays.

lordgoat

lordgoat wrote: »

Can Manchester United Score? They always score.

Sunderland called and said, "Pardon?"

Mr. Presentable

homerjay2005 wrote: »

go on then, please tell me what is wrong with the "way i set out the thread". how do you know what my intention was? this thread by and large, was going very well until some time later, one or two lads started mickey waving and causing trouble, taking the thread off topic. exactly what you are doing now.


this thread had potential, had some good debate, but as usual, being dragged through the s*ite by a few people who are incapable of having a debate and backing up their points.

OK. The thread should have been an homage to the mighty your club. Evidence the observation that Arsenal didn't actually have an unbeaten run.....

homerjay2005 wrote: »

technically Arsenal didnt go unbeaten

From your OP

homerjay2005 wrote: »

is not about united winning 3 trophies, this is about going unbeaten for a huge amount of time

Yet, once it seemed others were prepared to disagree with your opinion

homerjay2005 wrote: »

as a United fan, i am obviously going to say Uniteds run was more impressive,

This

homerjay2005 wrote: »

simple, which would they rather -

an unbeaten run leading to a treble or an unbeaten league season?

So my impression is this: If you have issue with my previous post (You:taking the thread off topic. exactly what you are doing now.) I presume you reported it. But, all the while you opine others are willy waving (or whatever you called it) you have yours firmly in your fist and are so focussed on it you can't see anyone else's.

I come from a blasé position here, English football is neither here nor there for me - thus there's no vote from me on the poll. But I know cheese when I see it.

kryogen

You know what really was an amazing unbeaten achievement

The Patriots going unbeaten in the regular season a couple of years ago

serious quality in that, damn Giants ruining the perfect season in the Superbowl

Fuhrer

kryogen wrote: »

You know what really was an amazing unbeaten achievement

The Patriots going unbeaten in the regular season a couple of years ago

serious quality in that, damn Giants ruining the perfect season in the Superbowl

Dolphins already did it

kryogen

Dolphins went 17-0
Pats went 18-0
then 18-1

Of course the Dolphins finished with the perfect season, but the Pats did surpass the number of games unbeaten

flahavaj

LOL @ the poll.

Mars Bar

What happened to it!? Haha!

flahavaj

mars bar wrote: »

What happened to it!? Haha!

Mods having a larf I'd say. :pac:

Le King

Haha what the hell.

the_one_&_only

Jaysus got a fright this morning when opened this thread. Was thinking what the F**K:eek::eek::eek:

But it's still arsenal winning tho

Iago

20 million people can't be wrong imo.

Slightly in Arsenals favour, but both incredible results that deserve acknowledgement.

Dimitri

As a utd fan I may be accused of bias but i think winning the three trophies outdoes Aresnals achievement. However they are both stand out seasons when Aresnal were on that run i reckon i watched more Aresnal games then UTD's they played some fantastic football and at times looked truly unstopable, making very good teams seem completely inept at times. However i don't think i'll ever forget UTD's treble either.

Warper

Jose Mourinho's 8 year unbeaten home League record spanning 4 countries. Now that puts these 2 in the shade.

Paul Tergat

Warper wrote: »

Jose Mourinho's 8 year unbeaten home League record spanning 4 countries. Now that puts these 2 in the shade.

Well what about Uniteds league cup record? not Lost since September 07.

SOME RECORD DAT

KeithAFC

Warper wrote: »

Jose Mourinho's 8 year unbeaten home League record spanning 4 countries. Now that puts these 2 in the shade.

No, because Mourinho has lot away games in seasons.

Going a full campaign over 38 games and not losing a single game, its something else..

Fuhrer

KeithAFC wrote: »

No, because Mourinho has lot away games in seasons.

Going a full campaign over 38 games and not losing a single game, its something else..

You dismiss Mourinho because he lost away games yet ignore that Arsenal lost several games that season.

homerjay2005

p_larkin99 wrote: »

Well what about Uniteds league cup record? not Lost since September 07.

SOME RECORD DAT

and the record for away undefeated run in europe too, milan in 07 to bayern in 10, 35 months.

also most home wins in a row in europe.

we are f8cking great aint we?!

Warper

KeithAFC wrote: »

No, because Mourinho has lot away games in seasons.

Going a full campaign over 38 games and not losing a single game, its something else..

People on here are getting worse. Sure if it didnt happen in the PL or to a PL team it has to be rubbish. Ya sure an 8 year unbeaten run crossing the toughest leagues in Europe is nothing. All hail the PL.

keane2097

Warper wrote: »

People on here are getting worse. Sure if it didnt happen in the PL or to a PL team it has to be rubbish. Ya sure an 8 year unbeaten run crossing the toughest leagues in Europe is nothing. All hail the PL.

lol - that's a bit of an overreaction.

It's also pretty retarded logic since a good chunk of what you are talking about happened in the PL.

Warper

keane2097 wrote: »

lol - that's a bit of an overreaction.

It's also pretty retarded logic since a good chunk of what you are talking about happened in the PL.

What is retarded is even having a conversation about whether Jose's world-breaking unbeaten home run is greater than Fergie' or Wenger's unbeaten run. That is retarded. Mourinho's run is even still going. The sh1t on this forum is mind-boggling.

Pro. F

I've been thinking about this since the thread went up.

Preston's record back in 18something doesn't impress me that much. The league was in its infancy. I kind of expect to hear crazy runs of good or bad results from those days.

Inter, Barca, Ajax, Celtic etc I'm not to interested in. If we're talking about records in England than you can't really compare achievements in other leagues and cups too closely. Maybe the football in England is more competitive or maybe it isn't but we are talking about English records and achievements.

PHB points out that Arsenal's unbeaten season didn't get the highest points tally. This is a good point but after thinking about it for a while I reckon that to win a league while going unbeaten is a worthy achievement in itself regardless of the points total.

So then, comparing the two unbeaten runs, ignoring trophies like the op says:
Arsenal were loosing games in other competitions at the time which diminishes theirs a bit. But United's run just seems a little contrived to me. Arsenal were under huge pressure and scrutiny to see whether they could do it. United weren't. Arsenal did something that is just plain cool. Winning the league without losing once is something that is so hard to do. You have to be able get all the results in a specified schedule whether you are on form or not. United on the other hand weren't aiming at a particular target with all the attention that that brings. United's run was a very good run but Arsenal's was a special achievement that means more than just a number.

My vote goes to Arsenal. ...phew

If we included trophies in the discussion my vote would have gone the other way. United's achievement of winning the three big trophies for English teams in the one year is better than going unbeaten in the league. I'm sure any Arsenal fan would trade it.

Lastly, the comparison of the football:
Arsenal were a joy to watch. They seemed like the perfect team because there was such an obvious vision and design behind their whole game. Big, fast, technically gifted players keeping the ball on the deck and scoring loads of goals. I loved watching it.
But United in 99 were every bit as much fun to watch imo. They might not have had such a focused game plan but they still played lovely football and were unbelievably entertaining. So many games turned into end to end epics. And the grit they had, the way they always kept fighting and never gave in. That's what won them the CL. That United team was the better of the two imo.

Pro. F

eh... what the fluck happened to the poll? Voters: 20000199 ...?!


edit: *shakes fist at mods*

homerjay2005

Pro. F wrote: »

eh... what the fluck happened to the poll? Voters: 20000199 ...?!


edit: *shakes fist at mods*

did you not hear? this was posted as thread of the day on tribalbollixfootball.com's "todays hottest threads" and interest soared..

another 20 million hits guaranteed tomorrow, onces boards fix the thread views problem, caused by about 4 million hits at the exact time, you will see that change too.

we are fcking great around here.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

Paul Tergat

Pro. F wrote: »

Arsenal were under huge pressure and scrutiny to see whether they could do it. United weren't.

I just cannot see how people can think this. A good few of Uniteds game were in knockout football, how is that not huge pressure? Expectations were not on United to win the treble but then neither were they on Arsenal to do it. What happened was people started talking about the unbeaten season in the same way people started talking about the possibility of the treble.

ziggy wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

First off its a joke and second you can still tell the actual number of votes so its not really changed anything. If you werent joking with your comment then lighten up a bit.