mary harney to use public health service

Tipp Man

Touch wood i never use the health service in this country so i don't know how good or bad it is in reality (but do know it is costing a large fortune to run it)

However my friend injured his knee and was sent for an X ray in Ardkeen or Waterford Regional or whatever its called. He was in and out in about 30 mins and couldn't believe how fast it was

Are things really that bad in the health service or is it a bit of an urban myth that keeps running?

stanislaw

astrofool wrote: »

Can you quote properly if you reply?

The bulk of the cost in the HSE is on staff wages, not on top level manager salaries and bonuses.

It's a bit like blaming the politicians pay for our deficit, even when paying them nothing would be a drop in the ocean, what needs to be tackled are the wages of absolutely everyone in the public services, including TD's and managers.

re the HSE, it does appear that is where a lot of the money goes, but that does'nt mean that the top level wages and bonuses should'nt be cut.

But the politicians are to blame for our deficit !!
While they wer'nt running the banks, they appointed the regulators to monitor good practice in the banks, they did'nt do their jobs properly, they wer'nt sacked or sanctioned but paid off with a happy pension??

But to return to my main point
If the politicians had to access the same services that they put in place for the general public then I reckon we'd have a much better and efficient service

re quoteing, clip the quote button rather than the reply button

John Lennon Peace Love and FF

astrofool wrote: »

Can you quote properly if you reply?

The bulk of the cost in the HSE is on staff wages, not on top level manager salaries and bonuses.

It's a bit like blaming the politicians pay for our deficit, even when paying them nothing would be a drop in the ocean, what needs to be tackled are the wages of absolutely everyone in the public services, including TD's and managers.

That is true man, the begrudgery and hate of these people is astounding.

stanislaw

John Lennon Peace Love and FF wrote: »

That is true man, the begrudgery and hate of these people is astounding.

speechless

The_Minister

Tipp Man wrote: »

Touch wood i never use the health service in this country so i don't know how good or bad it is in reality (but do know it is costing a large fortune to run it)

However my friend injured his knee and was sent for an X ray in Ardkeen or Waterford Regional or whatever its called. He was in and out in about 30 mins and couldn't believe how fast it was

Are things really that bad in the health service or is it a bit of an urban myth that keeps running?

There are good bits and bad bits, good times and bad times.

Emergency care is normally fantastic, but if you aren't an emergency and they are busy, you will sit on a trolley for a good while.

Basically, despite the continuous bad news stories there is a reason that most people surveyed on using the health service are happy with it - it works most of the time, for most people (and they have such low expectations going in).

stanislaw

Tipp Man wrote: »

Touch wood i never use the health service in this country so i don't know how good or bad it is in reality (but do know it is costing a large fortune to run it)

However my friend injured his knee and was sent for an X ray in Ardkeen or Waterford Regional or whatever its called. He was in and out in about 30 mins and couldn't believe how fast it was

Are things really that bad in the health service or is it a bit of an urban myth that keeps running?

your friend seems to have been very lucky. maybe the situation is much worse in dublin ??? but i doubt it
my own story from friends involved a 10 hr wait in A&E.
and another of a year long wait to be assessed only to have to wait another 8 months for surgery

is waterford hospital one of the hospitals due for closure or cutbacks ???

stanislaw

The_Minister wrote: »

There are good bits and bad bits, good times and bad times.

Emergency care is normally fantastic, but if you aren't an emergency and they are busy, you will sit on a trolley for a good while.

Basically, despite the continuous bad news stories there is a reason that most people surveyed on using the health service are happy with it - it works most of the time, for most people (and they have such low expectations going in).

maybe being irish, we have very low expectations.
we should demand better

djpbarry

stanislaw wrote: »

do they need to be compared to anything ??

Well, yes, they do. If you’re labelling the system as “a disgrace”, then we need a frame of reference. How do you define “a disgrace”?

stanislaw wrote: »

our system does not work.

Based on what metrics?

stanislaw wrote: »

If you attend A&E you are hoping to be seen to as an emergency, 10hrs or more later does'nt seem like an emegency to me.

There is certainly an issue with regard to waiting times for hospital beds and that needs to be addressed. However, just because someone has not yet been given a bed, it doesn’t mean that they haven’t been “seen to”.

stanislaw wrote: »

I think possibly when you actually get into the system/hospital your treatment is fine, but it takes far too long to get into it.

But you said just a few posts back that our hospitals are “a disgrace”?

stanislaw wrote: »

I think that trying to compare it to other health services is of no use.

Why not? How can we improve the service unless we consider how other (better) health services operate?

stanislaw wrote: »

well, can you name some.

Of course I can’t – the private affairs of politicians is of no concern to me and it’s not the sort of thing that should be in the public domain. You’re simply speculating.

stanislaw wrote: »

Is state health cover not one of the reasons we pay PRSI ??

Yes and no – the level of PRSI that we pay is nowhere near enough to cover the cost of our public service and our social welfare bill.

stanislaw wrote: »

There are far more problem groups within the HSE than just the nurses.!

My point is that there seems to be a common belief that one of the core problems of the HSE is a bloated administration. This may well be the case, but we also seem to have a very large staff of very well paid nurses, something that is rarely, if ever, discussed.

stanislaw wrote: »

And we do have very large investment in the HSE...

Like I said, it’s about average relative to other European states.

stanislaw wrote: »

...is not this investment there for the purchase of and to provide access of such equipment. as well as the overall operation of the HSE

Well, yes, of course it is. But if (for example) we’re paying for 60% more nurses than other OECD states...

stanislaw wrote: »

MY personal view is that there are too many bonuses and the salarys are too big for the various managers.

So let’s say we cut the salary of all the “various managers” by 50% - how much will that knock off the HSE’s operating costs? More importantly, do all these “various managers” deserve to have their pay drastically reduced?

stanislaw wrote: »

statistics are great but they take a sterile view and while they provide valuable and much needed information, they dont always tell the full story.

Statistics are the best we have to determine the performance of the HSE. The problem is that too often their performance is judged based on exaggerated anecdotes or scare stories in the media. A little objectivity is badly needed.

djpbarry

stanislaw wrote: »

maybe being irish, we have very low expectations.
we should demand better

There’s always room for improvement, no matter how good a system is. However, objectively identifying ways in which a system can be improved is very different to dismissing something, without basis, as “a disgrace” – the latter is meaningless and not terribly constructive, while the former can lead to a better system.

flutered

Where we do lag behind is in access to equipment such as CT’s and MRI’s, hence the long waiting times for such examinations (perhaps a trimming of nurse numbers might free up the necessary funds?).

lets revert back to the mid west regional hospital in limerick, who installed the following
the mri machine,
the dialyasis machine
the cancer care unit
re vamped most of the wards etc etc.
not the hse or any goverment minister or department, it was a private individual j.p. mc manus.
there have been one hospitals closed in limerick in recent years, barringtons another st johns is not far behind it.
only for him we would have a third world hospital in limerick, perhaps it is deserved for electing so many yes t-shocks.

irishh_bob

meditraitor wrote: »

I would like to point out that the health system was on its knee's when Harney took the portfolio and she is getting no help from her collegue's or the unions.

Its the poison chalice in Ireland, a lot of its got to do with the idea that frontline health workers are some kind of saints and you cannot tell them they need to roll up their sleeves or you get it in the kneck from everyone.....

Consultants/Doctors and nurses (relevent unions) are as much a problem as the overflowing admin staff that are behind the scene's....

dont know about doctors or consultants but nurses are the most sacred of sacred cows in this country , always amazes me how the parents of sick children who go on the airwaves to complain about childrens wards being shut , never seem to realise that having the highest paid nurses in europe comes at the expense of services to children etc

we have a long tradition in this country of pumping out nurses ( going back decades ) to work either here or abroad and this has resulted in an ingrained and frankly sentimental regard for them

ninty9er

First of all. What information is the premise of this thread based on. I don't know where to find info on where TDs get their medical treatment. Point it out please.

Secondly, the survival rates from cancer are much higher in our public hospitals than our private ones.

Thirdly, even if they use private hospitals, there is a benefit to the public system, they are not taking up space in it.

flutered wrote: »

does not our minister for bank rooling the banks, get his cancer treatment in the u.s.a. when he gets a cold its into the mater private with him, a pity himself and the minister for badly managed health affairs do not spend a saturday night, sunday in the mid west regional hospital in limerick, thats the one that was downgraded twice, to upgrade the university hospital in cork.

When was MWRH downgraded? I was there last Friday week when my granny shattered her hip. Once she was made comfortable she was left to wait for a bed whilst other URGENT cases were treated. Her shattered hip was not going to become more shattered as a result of waiting for a bed in A&E.

I have been an inpatient for over a week on 2 occasions in the last 4 years in MWRH and had an entirely positive experience, even though I did have to wait 3 hours for a bed the second time. People get beds based on their priority, not their time of entry.

You are in fact spouting complete and utter bull****. The A&E in Limerick was rewarded with 10 new consultants in 2007 as the most efficient A&E in the country.
http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/ihca-cautiously-welcomes-hiring-of-new-consultants-1064259.html

stanislaw wrote: »

do they need to be compared to anything ?? our system does not work. If you attend A&E you are hoping to be seen to as an emergency, 10hrs or more later does'nt seem like an emegency to me.

If you haven't been seen 10 hours later you are clearly NOT an emergency. I had to take a friend to A&E in Tralee at 2:45am on a Sunday morning 3 weeks ago. He was seen instantly ahead of those waiting as he was an EMERGENCY case.

Stanislaw wrote:

I think it really shows great confidence from our government that not one of them uses the public health system.

How do you know this? Or are you assuming to make an ass out of u and me.

The_Minister wrote: »

Emergency care is normally fantastic, but if you aren't an emergency and they are busy, you will sit on a trolley for a good while.

As it should be, if you are not an emergency case, you should not be in A&E

flutered wrote: »

Where we do lag behind is in access to equipment such as CT’s and MRI’s, hence the long waiting times for such examinations (perhaps a trimming of nurse numbers might free up the necessary funds?).

lets revert back to the mid west regional hospital in limerick, who installed the following
the mri machine,
the dialyasis machine
the cancer care unit
re vamped most of the wards etc etc.
not the hse or any goverment minister or department, it was a private individual j.p. mc manus.
there have been one hospitals closed in limerick in recent years, barringtons another st johns is not far behind it.
only for him we would have a third world hospital in limerick, perhaps it is deserved for electing so many yes t-shocks.

Limerick doesn't need 3 hospitals. Barringtons is still open and St. John's is non-acute. Realistically, there is enough unopened space in Dooradoyle to house all of the St. John's patients if the staff were moved. There is no logical reason to keep John's open.

I think you'll find that the (still mainly unopened) almost double size extension during the late 90s at Dooradoyle was as a result of Michael Noonan being Minister for Health and being able to see the hospital from his constituency office.

JP McManus deserves credit, but did not do all of that single handedly. You have to give particular credit to Dr. Gupta for the cancer care services for example. A great doctor who would treat a patient to the best of his ability regardless of equipment. Unfortunately I have personal family experience of this, the unfortunate part wasn't the lack of top class treatment, but relapse. Still 7 years is quite a long time for someone in their late 60s at diagnosis with bowel cancer to survive.

The HSE NEEDS CUTS in order to become efficient. I don't begrudge anyone private health care, I'd just question why they bother.

stanislaw

djpbarry wrote: »

There’s always room for improvement, no matter how good a system is. However, objectively identifying ways in which a system can be improved is very different to dismissing something, without basis, as “a disgrace” – the latter is meaningless and not terribly constructive, while the former can lead to a better system.

Firstly, I agree with you that there is always room for improvement even in a good system.
We dont have a good system, from my own experiences i have seen this, and it is a disgrace.

Identifiying ways in which a system can be improved ??
Do we not employ people for this task.
Oh yes, that is why we have a minister for health,
who controls the department of health and the HSE.
these are the people who have the information and the statistics on the entire health service.

If you want ideas and solutions on how to improve the hse from me, Il gladly take the job and devote my time to find improvement. Im sure that many people (inc. me) would be confident of not doing any worse than what we have already.


My call for our government and senior civil servants to use the same hospital services as provided to the regular citizen is still very valid and I think it should be manditory for them.

djpbarry

stanislaw wrote: »

Identifiying ways in which a system can be improved ??
Do we not employ people for this task.

That’s a cop-out. You are labelling the health system ‘a disgrace’ (which is ridiculous given the facts), so it is perfectly reasonable for you to be asked why you consider it a disgrace and what you would like to see changed. For example: perhaps we should consider reducing the number of nurses employed by the HSE.

Nijmegen

djpbarry wrote: »

That’s a cop-out. You are labelling the health system ‘a disgrace’ (which is ridiculous given the facts), so it is perfectly reasonable for you to be asked why you consider it a disgrace and what you would like to see changed. For example: perhaps we should consider reducing the number of nurses employed by the HSE.

Here's how I'd do it if it were an area of my business (a department of the government, in this case). I'm not really an expert on all areas of my business, not a deep one at least. As Henry Ford said when he was being ridiculed for his own lack of education, he'd call up the local university, ask after the very best and brightest in a particular area and then he'd hire them.

For the health service, firstly I think you need to remove the iron tight rules surrounding staff: People need to have their cheese moved around, be it redeployment, changes in working practices, etc. This is fundamental. Ask a public sector worker to use a black rather than a blue pen and invariably you get the unions running you out of town.

You can't bring change to an organisation like that, ever.

With the candor to be able to do so, I would bring in the following sorts of people and give them an assignment:

• Leaders from the very best healthcare systems we can identify, including those from systems we do not employ in Ireland
• Process and change management professionals from big, functional governments and industry
• Healthcare specialists across the spectrum of care required

There are probably other folks I'm missing. I daresay if I sit down with three people who've run healthcare in the likes of Scandinavia, the US or Germany I would get a shopping list of other professionals I need around the table.

I would create this group of experts and give them a mission: Forget about the HSE. Think of Ireland as a country of 4.5 million people with such and such a geographical, demographical, disease and so forth profile. Only thing they need to take into account is where we've got the major capital investments (hospitals) today.

Don't give them a budget yet.

Now build me the healthcare system you think I need in an ideal world.

The systems, the process, the numbers, the care centres, the specialist wards, the lot.

When this is done, I'll take a freak attack at the budget proposal.

I'll come back and tell you, okay, great plan, but I've only got XXbn. Cut down your plan into that budget. Prioritise. Make the case for investments I need to be making outside of my regular budget - Eg. more advanced IT systems.

Give me a whole new healthcare system that you think will work. Or give me three or four options.

Then let's roll.

stanislaw

djpbarry wrote: »

That’s a cop-out. You are labelling the health system ‘a disgrace’ (which is ridiculous given the facts), so it is perfectly reasonable for you to be asked why you consider it a disgrace and what you would like to see changed. For example: perhaps we should consider reducing the number of nurses employed by the HSE.

"health cutbacks in the budget
with regard to the health cutback in the upcoming budget, i think that all of our political class and top earning civil servants should be required by law to use the public health services that they have created.
i think it is possibly the only way that we might get a decent health service. and if as our health minister says that its "up to best european standards" then there should be no complaints or reason why they should'nt be using it themselves.
i have always believed that this should be the case, but especially now where we are expected to endure such cutbacks and hardship, everybody (including the policy makers) should suffer with the same services

what do you all think, and would it be possible to try to get this idea a higher profile ????"


this is my origional post, you hav'nt expressed an opinion on it yet and i would be grateful if you could let me know what you think .

djpbarry

stanislaw wrote: »

...i think that all of our political class and top earning civil servants should be required by law to use the public health services that they have created.

As was already pointed out to you, this thread is based on the premise that TD's and top civil servants do not use the public healthcare system in this country, which you have no way of verifying.

stanislaw

djpbarry wrote: »

As was already pointed out to you, this thread is based on the premise that TD's and top civil servants do not use the public healthcare system in this country, which you have no way of verifying.

now that sounds like a bit of a cop out !!
maybe im wrong, maybe they all use the public system.
But what is your opinion ??? What do you think ?

stanislaw

health cutbacks in the budget
with regard to the health cutback in the upcoming budget, i think that all of our political class and top earning civil servants should be required by law to use the public health services that they have created.
i think it is possibly the only way that we might get a decent health service. and if as our health minister says that its "up to best european standards" then there should be no complaints or reason why they should'nt be using it themselves.
i have always believed that this should be the case, but especially now where we are expected to endure such cutbacks and hardship, everybody (including the policy makers) should suffer with the same services

what do you all think, and would it be possible to try to get this idea a higher profile ????

Above is my origional post,
Im reposting it because this is what i wanted opinions on and not on how to fix the system.

flutered

ninty9er wrote: »

First of all. What information is the premise of this thread based on. I don't know where to find info on where TDs get their medical treatment. Point it out please.
answer the web if you are too lazy to look it up then i will not oblige you, oh i did say on they should be in a&e on a saturday night sunday morning

Secondly, the survival rates from cancer are much higher in our public hospitals than our private ones.
answer, then why are the mater private provideing cancer care in the regional, i

Thirdly, even if they use private hospitals, there is a benefit to the public system, they are not taking up space in it.
answer bull****e young man


When was MWRH downgraded? I was there last Friday week when my granny shattered her hip. Once she was made comfortable she was left to wait for a bed whilst other URGENT cases were treated. Her shattered hip was not going to become more shattered as a result of waiting for a bed in A&E.
answer a shattered hip requires a special bed how the hell could she be comfortable.

You are in fact spouting complete and utter bull****. The A&E in Limerick was rewarded with 10 new consultants in 2007 as the most efficient A&E in the country.
http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/ihca-cautiously-welcomes-hiring-of-new-consultants-1064259.html

answer were the appointed, every one who reads or glances through the sindo can only come to one conclusion it is a propanda machine for clowen cowen the bankers tanker etc. just read through the polotics and economics forms of this site and get the jist of what people think of the sindo
its not so long ago that funds were deducted from the hospitals funding because it did not measure up to percieved standards, how many extra medical staff have been appointed to deal with a&e services from ennis and nenagh.

Limerick doesn't need 3 hospitals. Barringtons is still open and St. John's is non-acute.
answer barringtons is a private hospital only, without health insurance or cash one cannot acess it st johns has been downgraded so far that consultants are saying the next thing it faces is closure
the cancer treatment centre at the regional would be in galway only for j.p.mcmanus, fact, there is no wash suite in ward 3b, j.p.mcmanus provided the cash to install one, what happened, they are shutting it.
galway has eight yes 8 urinologists, the regional has only one yes 1.
a local sporting ledgend from patrickswell was admitted to the regional, where was he treated ? you guessed it in galway, only for j.ps clout and cash we would not have a hospital just a health centre,
professor martinson (forgive my spelling) now claims that the ortipedic in croom has had zilch investment in ten yes 10 years oh by the way he is the head there plus he also lectures on orthipedics.

flutered

oh yes, in at the back of the regional, is parked most days, a forty foot trailer/container, part of the writing on the side of it proclaimes that it is a mobile operating theatre, ffs we now have third world medical facilitys in ireland, plus the first place to benefit from this is limerick, now 99er lets hear you defend this, plus it was announced that cork has a new private hospital, yes our elected repesentatives can be proud.

ninty9er

stanislaw wrote: »

Firstly, I agree with you that there is always room for improvement even in a good system.
We dont have a good system, from my own experiences i have seen this, and it is a disgrace.

Identifiying ways in which a system can be improved ??
Do we not employ people for this task.
Oh yes, that is why we have a minister for health,
who controls the department of health and the HSE.
these are the people who have the information and the statistics on the entire health service.

If you want ideas and solutions on how to improve the hse from me, Il gladly take the job and devote my time to find improvement. Im sure that many people (inc. me) would be confident of not doing any worse than what we have already.


My call for our government and senior civil servants to use the same hospital services as provided to the regular citizen is still very valid and I think it should be manditory for them.

I neither have the time nor inclination to argue with those who deal in hearsay, taking their own opinions as fact. Deal in the facts and I'll engage with you.
Edit:@ flutered
Could you use the quote function properly too. This is the second time you've been asked on this thread.

stanislaw

ninty9er wrote: »

I neither have the time nor inclination to argue with those who deal in hearsay, taking their own opinions as fact. Deal in the facts and I'll engage with you.

would you like facts ninty9er
this week! eye and ear hospital, Dublin.
if you attend A&E, are assessed and fed through to the out-patients for ENT treatment, your first appointment time will be in access of 12 months. does that sound like a properly working system ??
Are you satisfied with the quality of this service ??
im certainly not !!

and you never gave an opinion on whether our government and senior civil servants should use the same services as they provide for the general public.
im looking for your opinion, are you afraid to express one!

yahoo_moe

ninty9er wrote: »

People get beds based on their priority, not their time of entry.

People seem to miss this point regularly. Yes, people sometimes spend 10 hours on a trolley but it's not as if they're cardiac patients or burns victims or whatever.

stanislaw wrote: »

You could probably achieve much better results for a much lower spend if the Hse was run properly.
MY personal view is that there are too many bonuses and the salarys are too big for the various managers. But im sure i dont know the full story.

Then why not try to find it out? People have given you numerous statistics in the thread and in reply you've said that comparisons aren't useful, thrown out a load of spoofy questions about what you think or what you've heard and reposted the same thing over and over.

The reason you're not getting any answers is because your question assumes that we've got a terrible terrible health service... but you refuse to discuss or justify your assumption.

stanislaw

yahoo_moe wrote: »

Then why not try to find it out? People have given you numerous statistics in the thread and in reply you've said that comparisons aren't useful, thrown out a load of spoofy questions about what you think or what you've heard and reposted the same thing over and over.

The reason you're not getting any answers is because your question assumes that we've got a terrible terrible health service... but you refuse to discuss or justify your assumption.

regarding comparisons, yahoo-moe,
you've mis-quoted me, which seems to be the norm here. what i said was that why do we need to compare our services to any other country, can we not just have a decent health service that actually delivers the service its supposed to! it then does'nt matter what any other country does.

from my own experience i do believe the health service is terrible and we hav'nt even suffered the budget cutbacks yet. my quote about the eye and ear hospital has just happened, its real. and i dont know about you but i consider a year long wait for an outpatients appointment is'nt really acceptable.

regarding answers, most people who are throwing up arguments defending the health service are not replying to my original thread which is the one that i really wanted opinions on.
if you would'nt mind reading it please, id be grateful for your opinion, thanks