Upcoming Autumn Internationals

bamboozle

smurphy29 wrote: »

Based on the last 12 months, Heaslip is by some distance Ireland's best forward. The consistency of his performances has been simply staggering. Leamy is a hard worker and a good player, but he is simply not in the same class. Heaslip is one of the elite players in the world - rightly discussed in the same breadth as Parisse and Harinordoquy. Continuing to bang on about a total one-off event in the summer is ridiculous in the extreme.

QUOTE]

+1, Heaslip is a far better player than leamy was in his prime, in his prime, and i hope he returns to it after 2 injury blighted seasons, Leamy was a resolute defender and a good ball carrier with a great engine, he peaked in the SH tests against NZ a few seasons ago, Heaslip is far more dynamic, a better ball carrier, better side step, faster, better hands. We're lucky to have both.

In fairness to Leamy, he'd walk onto the back row of Scotland, England, Wales, Italy, Australia.

twinytwo

Sangre wrote: »

I'd disagree. The difference Heaslip makes to the Leinster backrow is massive. Anytime he comes off the bench he makes a huge difference. The Irish team has never really had to play without him so we haven't noticed this difference. I think he is head and shoulders above nearly every Irish player (bar maybe Bowe). I think the first thing you'd notice go south without him is our scrums, he controls it so well at the base even when our scrum is being pushed back.


I think the difference BOD makes to the team is overstated. Any game we play badly without him is always put down to his absence. Never has anything to do with the fact our forwards got pummeled.

They man has been our go to guy for the best part of decade.. nearly every try we score has some contribution from him weather it be scoring it/ setting it up/ drawing the defenders or getting smashed so the support runner can score etc... would rugby in ireland/ the irish team be where it/they are now without him.. probally not. To actually say the difference he makes to the team is overstated is down right disgraceful:mad:

Ciaran-Irl

Ciaran-Irl wrote: »

Yeah, I'd say that BOD, Bowe, POC and POC are the first names on the team sheet. In that order.

That second POC was a typo. Just for the record, when I said 'first names on the team sheet', I meant exactly that. Those are probably the first names Kidney puts on the team sheet. Obviously I can't read his mind, but I reckon he values them that highly for a variety of reasons.

For the record, I think Heaslip is the second most important player for Ireland, and he is only second place because he isn't the captain yet. I would be shocked if he doesn't make captain after the world cup.

twinytwo

Ciaran-Irl wrote: »

That second POC was a typo. Just for the record, when I said 'first names on the team sheet', I meant exactly that. Those are probably the first names Kidney puts on the team sheet. Obviously I can't read his mind, but I reckon he values them that highly for a variety of reasons.

For the record, I think Heaslip is the second most important player for Ireland, and he is only second place because he isn't the captain yet. I would be shocked if he doesn't make captain after the world cup.

He wont be el captain till drico retires/ stops starting for ireland... but he is the natural selection to replace drico... no one else is really captain material.

antogz1979

Username37 wrote: »

You can disagree but there are only two 8s that come close to Heaslip right now and they are Harinordoquy and Parisse. Heaslip, in my opinion, is on par with Harinordoquy and currently playing better than Parisse. Heaslip is also better than both the New Zealand and South Africa no.8s.

Heaslip is not at their standard yet. Both those players have been outstanding for the last 8 or so years, Heaslip has only two years under his belt. I don't think he has the brain to be as good as them either. Read is a better player than him as well and i could'nt see New Zealand swapping. Spies also is better, but that could be more to do with the type player South Africa want. I'll say it again why do we always overhype players into people their not. Heaslip has a bit to go yet, to be a world class player in my opinion.

Ciaran-Irl

twinytwo wrote: »

He wont be el captain till drico retires/ stops starting for ireland... but he is the natural selection to replace drico... no one else is really captain material.

I would expect BOD to retire from the captaincy / International scene after the world cup to be honest.

twinytwo

antogz1979 wrote: »

Heaslip is not at their standard yet. Both those players have been outstanding for the last 8 or so years, Heaslip has only two years under his belt. I don't think he has the brain to be as good as them either. Read is a better player than him as well and i could'nt see New Zealand swapping. Spies also is better, but that could be more to do with the type player South Africa want. I'll say it again why do we always overhype players into people their not. Heaslip has a bit to go yet, to be a world class player in my opinion.

Parrise is one of the players of his generation. You would have him in the same group as carter,macaw and drico. Tis a pity though he came to early for Italian rugby.

thehighground

smurphy29 wrote: »

Hmmm... selective recollections there. Heaslip was excellent against France, probably our best player (I think he got the only 8/10 in the Sunday Times marks out of 10 for what it's worth) and he came up with a huge performance against England also. Not to mention his performances in the Autumn Internationals last year where he was, once again, superb. Even if all he did was manage to get the go-forward ball off the back of our rapidly retreating scrums that he miraculously achieves in each game, he would still be invaluable. But as we know, he does so much more than that.

It boggles the mind that someone could be taking a player who has been so consistently and obviously impressive to task. I know this is a wild card but could the fact that he wears a blue shirt most weekends have something to do with this?

I didn't mention France because we were hammered by them. I thought everyone was fairly poor - definately on the backfoot once Healy got yellow carded. I thought that Leo Cullen got all the plaudits for that game. The only facit of our game that worked was the lineout.

Ireland were fairly poor for all of the 6Ns. Ferris was the one who stuck out for me in the England game and Wallace made a lot of carries in the Welsh game and our LO was also good (with POC & DOC back in harness together).
The Scottish "Killer Bs" deserved all the praise in that game.

For the record, I'm not taking him to task. I've repeateadly said he is a very good player, particularly for Leinster this season which hopefully will follow on into the AIs.

Now can we leave it at that as I don't want to get into a "you are only saying this because he is a Leinster player, and not a Munster player arguement because it does my head in."!

thehighground

twinytwo wrote: »

He wont be el captain till drico retires/ stops starting for ireland... but he is the natural selection to replace drico... no one else is really captain material.

Do you think POC isn't captain material? (POC is hardly going to retire next year at the age of 32, whatever about BOD)!

twinytwo

thehighground wrote: »

Do you think POC isn't captain material? (POC is hardly going to retire next year at the age of 32, whatever about BOD)!

Bod always said that 2011 season and the wc was always going to be his last. As for paulie yes he would but if heaslip keeps playing the way he his its going to be hard to denie him the crown.

Stev_o

twinytwo wrote: »

Parrise is one of the players of his generation. You would have him in the same group as carter,macaw and drico. Tis a pity though he came to early for Italian rugby.

He's only 27 years of age and should easily get himself into the 100+ caps mark if he stays injury free.

irishbucsfan

antogz1979 wrote: »

Heaslip is not at their standard yet. Both those players have been outstanding for the last 8 or so years, Heaslip has only two years under his belt. I don't think he has the brain to be as good as them either. Read is a better player than him as well and i could'nt see New Zealand swapping. Spies also is better, but that could be more to do with the type player South Africa want. I'll say it again why do we always overhype players into people their not. Heaslip has a bit to go yet, to be a world class player in my opinion.

Wow. Firstly, Heaslip is far, far better than Spies, and that has shown every time they've played against each other. Heaslip is far better off the ball and his work rate when his team has the ball is top class as well.

Whatever about Read being a good 8, he's obviously so good there that they've picked him at 7 for the Oz match...

GiftofGab

antogz1979 wrote: »

Heaslip is not at their standard yet. Both those players have been outstanding for the last 8 or so years, Heaslip has only two years under his belt. I don't think he has the brain to be as good as them either. Read is a better player than him as well and i could'nt see New Zealand swapping. Spies also is better, but that could be more to do with the type player South Africa want. I'll say it again why do we always overhype players into people their not. Heaslip has a bit to go yet, to be a world class player in my opinion.

ha Spies is not a better rugby player than heaslip. Spies is a gym monkey, has all the atributes of a great athlete but lacks a rugby brain. He has yet to prove himself on the international scene. This guy is the most overhyped player in world rugby.

thehighground

twinytwo wrote: »

Bod always said that 2011 season and the wc was always going to be his last. As for paulie yes he would but if heaslip keeps playing the way he his its going to be hard to denie him the crown.

I don't think Kidney would select his captain based on who his best player was to be honest. If that was the case, Axel Foley would never have been Munster captain or indeed, Leo Cullen would never have been Leinster captain.

Podge_irl

thehighground wrote: »

Do you think POC isn't captain material? (POC is hardly going to retire next year at the age of 32, whatever about BOD)!

Making POC captain after BOD retires would be something of a stop-gap measure though. Makes more sense to move it onto Heaslip who will have time to adjust to the role and keep it for a longer period.

All I'll say about the Heaslip thing is that he is currently, to my mind, one of Leinster and Ireland's most important players (second only to Sexton at Leinster, and that's as much to do with lack of cover for the latter as anything else).

antogz1979

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Wow. Firstly, Heaslip is far, far better than Spies, and that has shown every time they've played against each other. Heaslip is far better off the ball and his work rate when his team has the ball is top class as well.

Whatever about Read being a good 8, he's obviously so good there that they've picked him at 7 for the Oz match...

You did'nt read the post right. I said Heaslip would'nt get the number 8 jersey for South Africa as Spies is the type of number 8 The Boks would go for everytime. Read is starting at number 8 for the OZ match. At least we agree on Parisse and Harinordoquy, world class players and hopefully Heaslip will join them some day.

thehighground

Podge_irl wrote: »

Making POC captain after BOD retires would be something of a stop-gap measure though. Makes more sense to move it onto Heaslip who will have time to adjust to the role and keep it for a longer period.

Two years is hardly stop-gap. And long term captaincies can become a bit of a problem. For instance, the Ireland captaincy for BOD was far too onerous. He was too young when he was made captain.

None of the Munster captains have had very long tenures. Jim Williams was made Munster captain after Galwey. Then Axel for 2 years and now POC for the last 3 years. Axel was regarded as being one of the best captains around, but he was still only captain for 2 years.

All I'll say about the Heaslip thing is that he is currently, to my mind, one of Leinster and Ireland's most important players (second only to Sexton at Leinster, and that's as much to do with lack of cover for the latter as anything else).

So, Leinster are not missing Leo at all then? And the part about him being Ireland's most important player is laughable, bearing in mind what happened on the tour down under! Most important player for what?
What score did the Sunday Times give him for his AB performance?

Podge_irl

thehighground wrote: »

Two years is hardly stop-gap.

Assuming he's around for two years after the WC. Even if he is there is no guarantee he will be the player he currently is (or was a year ago to be more precise). Age catches up with everyone in different ways.

So, Leinster are not missing Leo at all then? And the part about him being Ireland's most important player is laughable, bearing in mind what happened on the tour down under!

I'd sooner have Leo out then Heaslip. And I said one of the most important players. And unless you consider the time POC battered the crap out of Sidoli to be somehow relevant to his playing abilities I recommend you stop bringing up the AB game at every possible opportunity.

Incidentally, what happened on the tour down under was that Ireland were hammered in NZ when they lost their best player...

Jemo

I think POC is too injury prone to be a realistic option for captain at the 2015 world cup, Heaslip should be at the peak of his powers by then. He is a more important player than POC for Ireland by a long long way, for instance the step from POC to Cullen is minimal, both are excellent players with little or nothing between them (on recent form), the step from Heaslip to Henry or Leamy is enormous, its going from a world class number 8 to a decent workhorse. The way the game is evolving, I can see Jamie being Ireland's most important player for years to come, he is highly integrated in the team atmosphere, popular, and if you need to see him motivating players keep an eye on him at any match he plays, he is always clapping lads on the back, keeping chins up, encouraging and leading by example. If Leinster or Ireland concede a try it is almost always Jamie or BOD regrouping spirits. The best player on a team shouldn't necessarily be captain, but when they are such natural leaders they certainly make a strong case for election.

I do however think that a captain should be a player who will be able to start most matches and be a step above the competition. That for me rules ROG, Best and POC out in the future as none will be guaranteed starting places (unless POC returns to his former self), leaving Heaslip, Bowe, Rob, Healy, Ferris, TOL, or DOC as arguably the guaranteed starters. DOC may have it in him, Ferris is too injury prone, TOL has enough on his plate, Healy and Rob have enough to worry about on their own form wise which leaves Bowe or Heaslip as the best options. I know who I'd pick

thehighground

Podge_irl wrote: »

Assuming he's around for two years after the WC. Even if he is there is no guarantee he will be the player he currently is (or was a year ago to be more precise). Age catches up with everyone in different ways.

He should be ok - it was an infection he had, not a hamstring, shoulder reconstruction or something like that. Age does catch up with everyone, but he has just had a year's break which will probably add another year to his career.

I'd sooner have Leo out then Heaslip. And I said one of the most important players. And unless you consider the time POC battered the crap out of Sidoli to be somehow relevant to his playing abilities I recommend you stop bringing up the AB game at every possible opportunity.

Fair enough that's your preference - but wasn't Leo missing for the Magner's final against the Ospreys (though Mal had a great game)? Perhaps Leo's leadership was missed.

The thing about POC's little bust ups - he doesn't get red carded for them (or cited). There is a big difference between the fisty cuffs with Sidoli and what Heaslip tried to do to McCaw.

And for the record, I know Heaslip isn't a dirty player - thats why it is so surprising.

Incidentally, what happened on the tour down under was that Ireland were hammered in NZ when they lost their best player...

Sure, Ireland should have done much better even though they were a player down to the ABs!

wixfjord

High ground you are hilarious! Talk about a broken record!

thehighground

Jemo wrote: »

I think POC is too injury prone to be a realistic option for captain at the 2015 world cup, Heaslip should be at the peak of his powers by then. He is a more important player than POC for Ireland by a long long way, for instance the step from POC to Cullen is minimal, both are excellent players with little or nothing between them (on recent form), the step from Heaslip to Henry or Leamy is enormous, its going from a world class number 8 to a decent workhorse. The way the game is evolving, I can see Jamie being Ireland's most important player for years to come, he is highly integrated in the team atmosphere, popular, and if you need to see him motivating players keep an eye on him at any match he plays, he is always clapping lads on the back, keeping chins up, encouraging and leading by example. If Leinster or Ireland concede a try it is almost always Jamie or BOD regrouping spirits. The best player on a team shouldn't necessarily be captain, but when they are such natural leaders they certainly make a strong case for election.

I do however think that a captain should be a player who will be able to start most matches and be a step above the competition. That for me rules ROG, Best and POC out in the future as none will be guaranteed starting places (unless POC returns to his former self), leaving Heaslip, Bowe, Rob, Healy, Ferris, TOL, or DOC as arguably the guaranteed starters. DOC may have it in him, Ferris is too injury prone, TOL has enough on his plate, Healy and Rob have enough to worry about on their own form wise which leaves Bowe or Heaslip as the best options. I know who I'd pick

Listen, POC's recent injury is from getting a pain killing injection into his groin so he could start against Scotland & Wales in the 6Ns. If Cullen is so highly rated by the Ireland management, why was POC being given pain killers so he could start and Cullen was on the bench?

You have obviously never heard Rory Best or Ferris talking about POC being their 'go to' person. In fact on the GS video, I seem to remember POC defending Heaslip for his try 'celebrations' from the rest of them.

thehighground

wixfjord wrote: »

High ground you are hilarious! Talk about a broken record!

I wouldn't want to be rude and not reply.

profitius

Jemo wrote: »

I think POC is too injury prone to be a realistic option for captain at the 2015 world cup, Heaslip should be at the peak of his powers by then. He is a more important player than POC for Ireland by a long long way, for instance the step from POC to Cullen is minimal, both are excellent players with little or nothing between them (on recent form), the step from Heaslip to Henry or Leamy is enormous, its going from a world class number 8 to a decent workhorse. The way the game is evolving, I can see Jamie being Ireland's most important player for years to come, he is highly integrated in the team atmosphere, popular, and if you need to see him motivating players keep an eye on him at any match he plays, he is always clapping lads on the back, keeping chins up, encouraging and leading by example. If Leinster or Ireland concede a try it is almost always Jamie or BOD regrouping spirits. The best player on a team shouldn't necessarily be captain, but when they are such natural leaders they certainly make a strong case for election.

I do however think that a captain should be a player who will be able to start most matches and be a step above the competition. That for me rules ROG, Best and POC out in the future as none will be guaranteed starting places (unless POC returns to his former self), leaving Heaslip, Bowe, Rob, Healy, Ferris, TOL, or DOC as arguably the guaranteed starters. DOC may have it in him, Ferris is too injury prone, TOL has enough on his plate, Healy and Rob have enough to worry about on their own form wise which leaves Bowe or Heaslip as the best options. I know who I'd pick

POC is a world class lock and his workrate is like a flankers. Theres a big gap between POC and the rest.

I don't know why we're debating who the captain should be. There should be as many leaders in the team as possible. All successful teams have leaders throughout the team and thats why they win tight matches.

Theres different types of captains too. The captain might not always be the best player in making decisions. So some teams might have different roles for leaders. Extroverted players might be better at geeing up their team mates while a more introverted leader might be a better decision maker (not because he is introverted, I'm just giving an example).

For me, Axel Foley was Munsters best captain because he always made the correct decision and stayed very cool in big matches. Leo Cullen is like that too.

Sangre

thehighground wrote: »

You have obviously never heard Rory Best or Ferris talking about POC being their 'go to' person. In fact on the GS video, I seem to remember POC defending Heaslip for his try 'celebrations' from the rest of them.

When he can score tries like he did against France in Croker, he can do whatever the hell he wants after them.

I didn't mean to start such a debate but in my mind, and I accept arguments against, that Heaslip should be the first name on our team sheet. His skills and work rate is phenomenal. I don't he has any weak point to his game. He also plays in one of the most important areas of the field, the backrow, where he is involved in most set pieces and influential in broken play and at ruck time. I was always a big fan but his season with Rocky has really made him shine since.

profitius wrote: »

POC is a world class lock and his workrate is like a flankers. Theres a big gap between POC and the rest.

I know its not fair to compare directly but Healsip's workrate is probably his most impressive attribute. Weather its making runs in open play or turning over ball at rucks he is everywhere. The amount of cover tackles he makes too beggars belief. Anyone remember his tackle on Sackey against wasps in the HC?

twinytwo

thehighground wrote: »

I don't think Kidney would select his captain based on who his best player was to be honest. If that was the case, Axel Foley would never have been Munster captain or indeed, Leo Cullen would never have been Leinster captain.

its not just that heaslip would be our best player.. obviously i dont know the guy but he comes across as the leader type.

jolley123

For everyone who doesn't agree that Jamie Heaslip is up there with the likes of Harinordequey and Parisse, I am shocked. His consistently outstanding performances should leave no doubters. He started all 3 lions tests against South Africa, was vital towards Irelands Grand Slam, has so many MOTM trophies it's comical, is close to playing more games for Leinster than BOD has in his career and if you need more proof 4 or 5 weeks ago, Victor Costello claimed him to be the best no.8 in the world. If anyone should have a respected opinion concerning rugby and the no.8 position it's Big Vic.

thebaz

thehighground wrote: »

Listen, POC's recent injury is from getting a pain killing injection into his groin so he could start against Scotland & Wales in the 6Ns. .

i'm no doctor, but if true i think that is scandalous - if he needed an injection in the groin he shouldn't have played - so much for drugs in rugby

danthefan

thehighground wrote: »

So, Leinster are not missing Leo at all then? And the part about him being Ireland's most important player is laughable, bearing in mind what happened on the tour down under! Most important player for what?
What score did the Sunday Times give him for his AB performance?

It is? I could have sworn Ireland lost him then got absolutely hammered. In fact we conceded more points than we ever have in a test match, ever.

SomeFool

danthefan wrote: »

It is? I could have sworn Ireland lost him then got absolutely hammered. In fact we conceded more points than we ever have in a test match, ever.

No team in the world is going to hold the Kiwis with 14 men to be fair, it
wouldn't matter who gets sent off, they'd find a way to exploit it.

I reckon the first name on the team sheet is probably going to be Healy, then most likely Best, then probably Buckley.........:D

ALH-06

Some of the rubbish being said here, seriously...

antogz1979 wrote: »

Leamy in his prime was just as good as Heaslip is now.

If this is a throw-away comment of convenience to support a flawed argument, then you might get away with accusations of mere bias instead of pure rugby ignorance.

Do you honestly believe this?

antogz1979 wrote: »

Both those players have been outstanding for the last 8 or so years, Heaslip has only two years under his belt.

So some players are just better because they've been around longer. How Confucian of you, very admirable.

antogz1979 wrote: »

Read is a better player than him as well... Spies also is better, but that could be more to do with the type player South Africa want... Heaslip has a bit to go yet, to be a world class player in my opinion.

Laughable about Spies, and nearly so about Read. Neither have anything remotely resembling Heaslip's versatility.

antogz1979 wrote: »

You did'nt read the post right. I said Heaslip would'nt get the number 8 jersey for South Africa as Spies is the type of number 8 The Boks would go for everytime

Read your post above, the offending text is in bold. Think more before writing next time - ridiculous statements may be taken seriously, even when followed by vague and patchy disclaimers.

antogz1979 wrote: »

At least we agree on Parisse and Harinordoquy, world class players and hopefully Heaslip will join them some day.

Well I don't agree with anything you say...

By the way, here is Spies' two cents on who the best 8 is in world rugby. Not to say this should be taken as anything remotely resembling fact, but interestingly there's no mention of Parisse or Harinordoque (both of whom are 'far superior' to Heaslip according to the above poster). But guess who he does mention?

‘Who is the best No 8 in world rugby?’ I ask. I fully expect him to rattle off some boring bull**** like: ‘That’s tough. Ryan Kankowski is an unbelievable player, and that bloke from Wales, whatshisname? Powell? Ja, Andy Powell, that boy can play a bit. And the Irishman, Jamie Heaslip, he’s coming through nicely. Oh ja, and Rodney So’oialo …’

http://www.keo.co.za/2009/05/15/spiess-cognitive-evolution/

Tristram

By the way, here is Spies' two cents on who the best 8 is in world rugby. Not to say this should be taken as anything remotely resembling fact, but interestingly there's no mention of Parisse or Harinordoque (both of whom are 'far superior' to Heaslip according to the above poster). But guess who he does mention?



http://www.keo.co.za/2009/05/15/spiess-cognitive-evolution/

I think you need to read that again. Spies doesn't mention a single player other than himself.

ALH-06

Tristram wrote: »

I think you need to read that again. Spies doesn't mention a single player other than himself.

Ah you're right. It's the interviewer that mentions them, not him! Apologies.

twinytwo

thebaz wrote: »

i'm no doctor, but if true i think that is scandalous - if he needed an injection in the groin he shouldn't have played - so much for drugs in rugby

From what i understand it was because of this injection that he got an infection in his bone... which is really hard to get rid of.. that why he has been out so long cause they have him hooked up to antibiotics.

antogz1979

ALH-06 wrote: »

Some of the rubbish being said here, seriously...



If this is a throw-away comment of convenience to support a flawed argument, then you might get away with accusations of mere bias instead of pure rugby ignorance.

Do you honestly believe this?

Yes i do, i'm entitled to my opinion. Leamy was just as good. What i will say if Heaslip keeps playing the way he is, he will go on to be a better player.

So some players are just better because they've been around longer. How Confucian of you, very admirable.

Read the post properly, i was saying to be up their with Parisse and Harinordoquy he needs to be playing brilliantly for a few more years. They have being doing it for 8 or so years.

Laughable about Spies, and nearly so about Read. Neither have anything remotely resembling Heaslip's versatility.

Read is just as good, you obviously have'nt watched New Zealand or the super 14's latley. We will see Read blow him away in a few weeks. Spies i was saying would get into the South Africa team before Heaslip becuse of the type player he was, not because he was'nt better. Again read the post properly.

Read your post above, the offending text is in bold. Think more before writing next time - ridiculous statements may be taken seriously, even when followed by vague and patchy disclaimers.

Read the bit after it, and it's not some patch disclaimer. Have you a problem with reading?

Well I don't agree with anything you say...

By the way, here is Spies' two cents on who the best 8 is in world rugby. Not to say this should be taken as anything remotely resembling fact, but interestingly there's no mention of Parisse or Harinordoque (both of whom are 'far superior' to Heaslip according to the above poster). But guess who he does mention?

Again i'll say it Heaslip is a brilliant player and could go onto being one of the all time greats in his position, but he's no up their with Parisse or Hardinordoquy. I think it's laughable to even suggest it, typical green or blue tinted glasses again

http://www.keo.co.za/2009/05/15/spiess-cognitive-evolution/









Again i'll say it Heaslip is a brilliant player and could go onto being one of the all time greats in his position, but he's no up their with Parisse or Hardinordoquy. I think it's laughable to even suggest it, typical green or blue tinted glasses again

Podge_irl

antogz1979 wrote: »

Yes i do, i'm entitled to my opinion. Leamy was just as good.

He really, really wasn't. Leamy was excellent at what he did, but was always a 6 in 8's clothing. He didn't have the footballing skills or rugby brain of Heaslip and quite simply isn't in the same league as a no.8.

thehighground

Sangre wrote: »

When he can score tries like he did against France in Croker, he can do whatever the hell he wants after them.

Thats what POC said. But he did say that if he messed up his touch-down there would be trouble!

I didn't mean to start such a debate but in my mind, and I accept arguments against, that Heaslip should be the first name on our team sheet. His skills and work rate is phenomenal. I don't he has any weak point to his game. He also plays in one of the most important areas of the field, the backrow, where he is involved in most set pieces and influential in broken play and at ruck time. I was always a big fan but his season with Rocky has really made him shine since.


I know its not fair to compare directly but Healsip's workrate is probably his most impressive attribute. Weather its making runs in open play or turning over ball at rucks he is everywhere. The amount of cover tackles he makes too beggars belief. Anyone remember his tackle on Sackey against wasps in the HC?

Heaslip has been the standout out player for Leinster this season, no doubt about that. Lets hope he carries that form into the AIs.

thehighground

danthefan wrote: »

It is? I could have sworn Ireland lost him then got absolutely hammered. In fact we conceded more points than we ever have in a test match, ever.

If you want to look at it that way - Ireland got within 10pts of New Zealand in NZ with Leamy at 8 (and no Heaslip on the pitch)!

What happened Heaslip in Croke Park then - 3-22 EDIT: (and no Leamy on the pitch).

tolosenc

Jamie's commitment is what really sets him apart in my eyes. He's the last person on the team to give up on anything. If Ngwenya makes a linebreak in the WC next year, heads will drop, but I guarantee that you'll see Heaslip charging back after him until he puts the ball down, whether in vain or not. He gives his heart and soul for 80 minutes.

thehighground

ALH-06 wrote: »

So some players are just better because they've been around longer. How Confucian of you, very admirable.

And Ireland with Leamy in it has a better win percentage than a Heaslip one.

Leamy has 66.27% test win ratio. Heaslip has a 55% win ratio.

As well as that, Leamy is just under 2 years older than Heaslip, yet Leamy has 15 more caps than him and that is missing nearly the last two seasons through injury.

Heaslip has a bit more to do yet at international level to be thought of in the same light as POC.

danthefan

thehighground wrote: »

Leamy has 66.27% test win ratio. Heaslip has a 55% win ratio.

So?

thehighground wrote: »

As well as that, Leamy is just under 2 years older than Heaslip, yet Leamy has 15 more caps than him and that is missing nearly the last two seasons through injury.

So?

thehighground

danthefan wrote: »

So?



So?

Just read the posts I was responding to.

danthefan

thehighground wrote: »

Just read the posts I was responding to.

So Leamy is better than Heaslip? You spit out all these stats but often I really don't see what point you're trying to make.

thehighground

Podge_irl wrote: »

He really, really wasn't. Leamy was excellent at what he did, but was always a 6 in 8's clothing. He didn't have the footballing skills or rugby brain of Heaslip and quite simply isn't in the same league as a no.8.

He was the No. 8 who kept Ireland within 10 of New Zealand and came away with a win against Scotland for the GS, which is more than what happened last season with Heaslip at 8. (But I agree with you, Leamy is a much better 6).

thehighground

danthefan wrote: »

So Leamy is better than Heaslip? You spit out all these stats but often I really don't see what point you're trying to make.

Heaslip has the potential to be a much better player at 8 than Leamy. But it is still POTENTIAL at international level and at the moment I doubt if the coaching staff would be too upset if Heaslip wasn't fit and Leamy was available. They certainly wouldn't be giving him painkilling injections to get him on the pitch.

You were the one that claimed that Ireland got hammered because Heaslip was missing. Ireland wouldn't have got as hammered if a 15 which included Leamy was playing.

danthefan

thehighground wrote: »

Heaslip has the potential to be a much better player at 8 than Leamy. But it is still POTENTIAL at international level and at the moment I doubt if the coaching staff would be too upset if Heaslip wasn't fit and Leamy was available. They certainly wouldn't be giving him painkilling injections to get him on the pitch.

You were the one that claimed that Ireland got hammered because Heaslip was missing. Ireland wouldn't have got as hammered if a 15 which included Leamy was playing.

That was tongue in cheek.

So you think Leamy is as good as Heaslip currently. Glad we have that sorted.

Out of interest you might be interested in listening to the various episodes of Ruggamatrix that Les Kiss (a member of the Irish coaching staff) is on, he heaps praise on Heaslip, describes him as one of our most important players, talks about how wide his skillset is, etc.

thehighground

danthefan wrote: »

That was tongue in cheek.

So you think Leamy is as good as Heaslip currently. Glad we have that sorted.

Out of interest you might be interested in listening to the various episodes of Ruggamatrix that Les Kiss (a member of the Irish coaching staff) is on, he heaps praise on Heaslip, describes him as one of our most important players, talks about how wide his skillset is, etc.

Leamy is only coming back from a shoulder op and a couple of injuries. Heaslip has concentrated on playing one position, so yes he should have good skills at 8. I'm sure the SH / ruggamatrix are interested to know what the story is about Heaslip. The McCaw incident has the same level of interest down there as the BOD spear tackle had up here.

EDIT: and for the nth time - all I've claimed is that there isn't the huge difference in standard between say POC & his backup and Heislip & his backup.

danthefan

Nope, it wasn't about Heaslip. It was about Ireland alright though.

And when he talked about skillset he wasn't talking about off the back of scrums, he describes Heaslip as a 7.5 if I remember correctly, he's so good at the breakdown.

Edit - are you spelling Heaslip incorrectly on purpose?

thehighground

danthefan wrote: »

Nope, it wasn't about Heaslip. It was about Ireland alright though.

And when he talked about skillset he wasn't talking about off the back of scrums, he describes Heaslip as a 7.5 if I remember correctly, he's so good at the breakdown.

Edit - are you spelling Heaslip incorrectly on purpose?

So what marks did others get?

Edit: No, I'm not spelling Heaslip incorrectly on purpose - I'm intrigued to know what the significance of mis-spelling his name is though.

danthefan

thehighground wrote: »

So what marks did others get?

Edit: No, I'm not spelling Heaslip incorrectly on purpose - I'm intrigued to know what the significance of mis-spelling his name is though.

Marks? What are you talking about? It's that he has the skills of an openside while he himself plays 8.