General UFC Chit Chat/News

Kenny Bania · 15-09-2015 3:00pm

John_D80 wrote: »

Its falls under both categories actually. Most of the doping agencies/commisions just use prohibited/banned substances as an umbrella term.

Unless there has been a recent change, USADA and WADA had banned cannabis (in compettition) for meeting all three criteria for classification as a prohibited substance, including being performance enhancing.

Has this changed recently?

It's not a PED - i.e. it's not performance enhancing. No commission classes cannabis as a PED. They class it as a banned substance. There's a difference.

Mellor · 15-09-2015 3:01pm

Lukker- wrote: »

So? If he's out of competition and has a medical cert to use it legally in the State of California.

For super heavy users it can take over 2 months to vacate the system.

What's that suppose to mean?
Yes, he can legally use smoke weed in California. This is nothing to do with breaking the law.
His medical card doesn't exclude him for the rules of the sport.

Kenny Bania wrote: »

Cannibas is not a PED. It's a banned recreational drug.

Pretty sure it's included in WADA's list of PEDs. Which the NSAC have followed for a while.

He doesn't have a medical usage card - he just said he did - but he never produced the card -

I think his Lawler said something about having a prescription but not bothering to get the card as its voluntary.

Kenny Bania · 15-09-2015 3:06pm

Mellor wrote: »

What's that suppose to mean?
Pretty sure it's included in WADA's list of PEDs. Which the NSAC have followed for a while.

It's on WADA's prohibited list - they never call it a PED.
http://www.usada.org/wp-content/uploads/wada-2015-prohibited-list-en.pdf

I think his Lawler said something about having a prescription but not bothering to get the card as its voluntary.

They never produced either when asked. He just went around saying he had one.

John_D80 · 15-09-2015 3:10pm

Kenny Bania wrote: »

It's on WADA's prohibited list - they never call it a PED.
http://www.usada.org/wp-content/uploads/wada-2015-prohibited-list-en.pdf

They dont specifically say anabolic steroids are performance enhancing either but they are.Just to clear this up for you, there are three criteria for a substance to be prohibited.

1.It has the potential to enhance or enhances sport performance
2.It represents an actual or potential health risk to the athlete
3.It violates the spirit of sport

According to WADA (unless there has been a recent change), cannabis meets all three criteria.

the incredible pudding · 15-09-2015 3:11pm

Cannabis is described by the WADA as being a PED but the reasoning is spurious (may help the athlete deal with anxiety and fear), this potential affect (discounting the potential increased anxiety and fear) would surely be severely offset by the negative impact it can have on one's response times and general cognitive functioning. I'd wager that it will go the way of caffeine and be removed as a PED within the decade. Whether or not it should be on the list of banned substances for other reasons is another argument entirely and not one worth going into imo.

I think the length of the ban is a joke considering the very real problem of PEDs in the sport and the message being sent is simply not to f**k with the commission or they'll do you worse. Diaz was definitely his own worst enemy in this regard but it makes the ruling no less farcical.

John_D80 · 15-09-2015 3:19pm

Cannabis listed here on this table of WADA PED's. Its an old one (from 2013's list) but as far as I am aware, all of the info in relation to Cannabis listed here is still current.

http://sportsanddrugs.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=002037

Kenny Bania · 15-09-2015 3:20pm

John_D80 wrote: »

Cannabis listed here on this table of WADA PED's. Its an old one (from 2013's list) but as far as I am aware, all of the info in relation to Cannabis listed here is still current.

http://sportsanddrugs.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=002037

Why are you posting an old one, when I just posted the current one?

John_D80 · 15-09-2015 3:22pm

Kenny Bania wrote: »

Why are you posting an old one, when I just posted the current one?

Because the table clearly shows that Cannabis is classified as a Performance enhancing substance. The list you showed you only says what is prohibited, not what is considered performance enhancing.

Mellor · 15-09-2015 3:25pm

Kenny Bania wrote: »

It's on WADA's prohibited list - they never call it a PED.
http://www.usada.org/wp-content/uploads/wada-2015-prohibited-list-en.pdf

They refer to testosterone (and every other PED) as "prohibited substances" also. They don't use the words PED anywhere Afaik.
The WADA list, by definition, is a list of all the substances that are banned due to doping in sport, theres no classification of PED vrs rec drugs

Kenny Bania · 15-09-2015 3:28pm

Mellor wrote: »

it's included in WADA's list of PEDs. .

Mellor wrote: »

They don't use the words PED anywhere Afaik

Any chance of some consistency there, Mellor?

John_D80 · 15-09-2015 3:30pm

Kenny Bania wrote: »

Any chance of some consistency there, Mellor?

what I'm sure he means (and is correct in saying) is that they dont specify performance enhancing in the annual list.

You have to be familiar with the process of classification to understand the difference to be honest, and i dont think you are.

Not all prohibited substances are performance enhancing. And funnily enough not all perfomance enhancing substances are prohibited (in theory at least). Cannabis is most definitely classified as both though.

Kenny Bania · 15-09-2015 3:37pm

John_D80 wrote: »

You have to be familiar with the process of classification to understand the difference to be honest, and i dont think you are.

Not all prohibited substances are performance enhancing.

Are you feeling okay?

That's the exact point I made - that you & Mellor said was wrong. And now you're agreeing with me & pretending you said it? I'm the one who said it's a banned substance - and not a Performance Enhancing Drug. And you both said it was on the WADA list of PEDs. Which it isn't.

Mellor · 15-09-2015 3:39pm

Kenny Bania wrote: »

Any chance of some consistency there, Mellor?

WADA = World Anti Doping Agency.
"doping" is the use of proformance enhancing drugs in sport.
I was refering to the Wada list as a list of PEDs. Is this wrong?

You linked the list above, and I was pointing out that PED isn't a phrase they use. The fact its not mentioned beside Weed means nothing. Or else, by the same logic, sterouds or EPO arent PEDs. Which is obviously not true

Kenny Bania · 15-09-2015 3:41pm

Mellor wrote: »

I was refering to the Wada list as a list of PEDs. Is this wrong?

Yes it's wrong. Because the WADA list is not a list of PEDs. It's a list of "Prohibited Substances" - I posted the link - the title is at the to of the document.

PEDs (testosterone, Deca, winstrol, etc) are listed on there, as are recreational drugs (cannabis, cocaine, etc). Not all recreational drugs are PEDs. But both are "Prohibited".

Mellor · 15-09-2015 3:42pm

Kenny Bania wrote: »

Are you feeling okay?

That's the exact point I made - that you & Mellor said was wrong. And now you're agreeing with me & pretending you said it? I'm the one who said it's a banned substance - and not a Performance Enhancing Drug. And you both said it was on the WADA list of PEDs. Which it isn't.

Is testosterone or any anabolic steroid a PED?

John_D80 · 15-09-2015 3:43pm

Kenny Bania wrote: »

Are you feeling okay?

That's the exact point I made - that you & Mellor said was wrong. And now you're agreeing with me & pretending you said it? I'm the one who said it's a banned substance - and not a Performance Enhancing Drug. And you both said it was on the WADA list of PEDs. Which it isn't.

Please if you're going to qoute me, at least quote the full post as it relates to the point under discussion.

Do you actually understand the criteria for for a substance to be classified as prohibited? I dont think you do.

Kenny Bania · 15-09-2015 3:44pm

Mellor wrote: »

Is testosterone or any anabolic steroid a PED?

Yes.

John_D80 · 15-09-2015 3:45pm

Kenny Bania wrote: »

Yes it's wrong. Because the WADA list is not a list of PEDs. It's a list of "Prohibited Substances" - I posted the link - the title is at the to of the document.

PEDs (testosterone, Deca, winstrol, etc) are listed on there, as are recreational drugs (cannabis, cocaine, etc). Not all recreational drugs are PEDs. But both are "Prohibited".

Yeah that was just the list of prohibited substances. Did you bother to look at the list of Performance enhancing substances I posted by any chance.

Nandrolone was on the list you posted. Are you trying to tell me thats not a PED?

John_D80 · 15-09-2015 3:46pm

Kenny Bania wrote: »

Yes.

Both of then are on the list you posted as well as cannabis so why can you accept that cannabis is also a PED?

Mellor · 15-09-2015 3:54pm

Kenny Bania wrote: »

Yes it's wrong. Because the WADA list is not a list of PEDs. It's a list of "Prohibited Substances" - I posted the link - the title is at the to of the document.

PEDs (testosterone, Deca, winstrol, etc) are listed on there, as are recreational drugs (cannabis, cocaine, etc). Not all recreational drugs are PEDs. But both are "Prohibited".

You using the fact they they don't called it a PED as proof that it not actually a PED. That makes absolutely no sense. The steroids you mention above aren't refered to as PEDs either. But nobody would try to say they aren't PEDs.

WADA don't classify what's a PEDs and what's a rec drug.
NSAC, based on their comments to Diaz, consider or considered Weed to be performancs enhancing.

Kenny Bania · 15-09-2015 3:54pm

John_D80 wrote: »

Both of then are on the list you posted as well as cannabis so why can you accept that cannabis is also a PED?

Seriously - are you feeling ok? You're making a strawman argument now.

Cannabis was on the list I posted of PROHIBITED SUBSTANCES. I never posted a list of PEDs.

That's like saying: "you posted a list with A on it - so why can't you now admit that B is true?"
Eh, because my list never mentioned B.

Leave the logical discussion to the adults, John. You seem out of your depth here and can't even keep track of the title of the list I posted. Here it is again - try to read the title of it:
http://www.usada.org/wp-content/uploads/wada-2015-prohibited-list-en.pdf

The World Anti-Doping Code
THE 2015
PROHIBITED LIST

PROHIBITED LIST

I'll say it again - PROHIBITED LIST. And cannabis appears on this list. And I repeat - it is not a list of PEDs. It's a ....PROHIBITED LIST! Which makes cannabis "PROHIBITED" - not a PED.

Lukker- · 15-09-2015 4:00pm

Mellor wrote: »

What's that suppose to mean?
Yes, he can legally use smoke weed in California. This is nothing to do with breaking the law.
His medical card doesn't exclude him for the rules of the sport.

You were saying he tested positive in all 3 so he has no excuse really, I was saying there is a limit for a reason. If he was smoking out of competition he could still test positive in the run up to a fight having not smoked 30 days prior.

WADA don't punish cannabis use out of competition so a fighter wouldn't be breaking any rules using it then.

I think the way NSAC approach it is fundamentally wrong, even Dana White thinks it is wrong. They essentially are willing to overlook it and other recreational drugs out of competition, but treat it the same as a PED if you get caught in the run up to a fight. Doesn't exactly make sense. Dana was worried with out of competition testing that 80% of fighters would test positive for cannabis.

Kenny Bania · 15-09-2015 4:01pm

Mellor wrote: »

You using the fact they they don't called it a PED as proof that it not actually a PED. That makes absolutely no sense. The steroids you mention above aren't refered to as PEDs either. But nobody would try to say they aren't PEDs.

WADA don't classify what's a PEDs and what's a rec drug.
NSAC, based on their comments to Diaz, consider or considered Weed to be performancs enhancing.

Based on the WADA list, it's accepted (and common sense) that the "Substances Banned in Competition" are the recreational drugs.

The "Substances Banned at All Times" are the PEDs or masking agents/diuretics.

Lukker- · 15-09-2015 4:02pm

Could Diaz still fight in Fight Nights in places like Japan, Ireland, Scotland etc? Would the UFC put him on a card even though he's been suspended by NSAC?

Kenny Bania · 15-09-2015 4:04pm

Lukker- wrote: »

WADA don't punish cannabis use out of competition so a fighter wouldn't be breaking any rules using it then.

He wouldn't be tested for it out of competition. And if there were still traces in competition, NSAC have increased the tolerance level to 150 nanograms per ml of THC (triple what it was a few years ago) which means only very recent usage could be classed as a failure.

Kenny Bania · 15-09-2015 4:05pm

Lukker- wrote: »

Could Diaz still fight in Fight Nights in places like Japan, Ireland, Scotland etc? Would the UFC put him on a card even though he's been suspended by NSAC?

He can't fight anywhere in the US, or anywhere that honours the ban (like Canada and maybe Brazil). But he can fight in the UK or Australia or Japan. However, the commissions frown on that, and after 5 years may not grant him a license at all. It's a risk he can take.

Although he's going to challenge this ruling in court & it likely won't be upheld. But either way, it'll be around 3 years out of action

Bigfoot Silva fought abroad when on a US ban - but he did get a license in the US again... so who knows.

Mellor · 15-09-2015 4:17pm

Kenny Bania wrote: »

Based on the WADA list, it's accepted (and common sense) that the "Substances Banned in Competition" are the recreational drugs.

The "Substances Banned at All Times" are the PEDs or masking agents/diuretics.

Stimulants are only banned in competition, but a lot of them aren't recreational drugs (some obviously are, cocaine etc).

Kenny Bania · 15-09-2015 4:18pm

I think we're pretty much in agreement, Mellor. Let's move on from this nitpicking.

Mellor · 15-09-2015 4:20pm

Lukker- wrote: »

if he was smoking out of competition he could still test positive in the run up to a fight having not smoked 30 days prior.

Basically that's the issue. It can hang around for ages. Especially in heavy users. But that's what they've decided is the test/limit for weed in-competition.

MartyMcFly84 · 15-09-2015 4:21pm

Could Diaz still fight in Fight Nights in places like Japan, Ireland, Scotland etc? Would the UFC put him on a card even though he's been suspended by NSAC?

Technically he could. However other athletic commissions tend to uphold the ruling of others as good practice.

In places where there is not an appropriate athletic commission the UFC acts as it using the NSAC standard as far as I know.

His best bet now would be for the UFC to release him and him fighting in organisation like One FC.

Perhaps against Paul Daly in BAMMA? He will struggle to get a decent paycheck outside of the US and UFC (compared to what we was on).

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