'Back to the Mac' Event October 20th

johnk123

johnk123 wrote: »

It does look impressive. Will definitely make access to apps a lot easier and more efficient with them all in the one place.

90 days wait people...

Here we go!

conor.hogan.2

Did they mention if the appstore will be the only way to get apps on the mac?

Not in this version - but in Lion, would they go down that line ( ) like iOS or an apple selection and a normal selection?

Basicaly will it be the begginning of the locking down of the mac or bodega but released and mantained by apple?

Sad Professor

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Did they mention if the appstore will be the only way to get apps on the mac?

Of course not. That will never happen. He specifically stated it wouldn't be the only place.

Hogzy

Thats EXPENSIVE!!!!!

$999 for the base model 11inch Model

Sad Professor

$999 is pretty much what I expected. It's below the MBP which is the important thing. It has a far better chance of success than it's previous incarnation.

conor.hogan.2

sad professor - you sure?

the isight on the air is called facetime - and everything is iOS centered even when they are discussing macs - they are deffo going more iOS like.

Sad Professor

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

sad professor - you sure?

Yes! The Apple-haters on Gizmodo and the alarmists on the Mac forums will undoubtedly disagree. But they are wrong. Locking down OS X like iOS would kill the Mac stone dead. Apple aren't that stupid.

the isight on the air is called facetime - and everything is iOS centered even when they are discussing macs - they are deffo going more iOS like.

True, but he also was quite clear about the iOS things that wouldn't work. Namely touch-screen. The iOS stuff will just make Macs more user-friendly and make it easier for iPhone/iPad users to switch to them. It's the "halo effect" and the Mac has benefited enormously from it already. Experienced Mac users like myself probably won't care much for the iOS influence but it will appeal to new users.

Hogzy

Was thinking about selling my MBP to get one of these during the keynote but seeing those prices... Not a hope!!!

conor.hogan.2

I disagree - I said back in Janurary or whenever on this board that they are going more iOS like and they are going that way they might not go all the way but we will see.

True - you were watching I'm only glancing so if he said those things that casts a different light on things.


Once they don't go all iOS like without having a way to use the old way I don't care - a bit like using terminal for everything if you want (but still gui and actually practical)

thecommander

Hogzy wrote: »

Was thinking about selling my MBP to get one of these during the keynote but seeing those prices... Not a hope!!!

What did you think they were going to be? I think its a good price for an ultraportable.

conor.hogan.2

if the 999 dollars is around 1100 euro then its not a bad price considering the specs and size etc.

I would never sue it much like an ipad I have no use for it but if you have a use for it it is a decent price (apple wise anyway)

Hogzy

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

I disagree - I said back in Janurary or whenever on this board that they are going more iOS like and they are going that way they might not go all the way but we will see.

When you say iOS 'like' - What exactly do you mean?

Because not in a million years would apple restrict OSX the same way as iOS or even. Mac struggles enough with software developers for professionals (Bar media), We have only just seen AutoCAD come to Mac so to me it looks as if they are making a move towards getting apple computers into business in a similar way microsoft is.
The iPhone is becoming the number one business/smart phone and will more than likely overtake RIM someday so if apple can have a system for their Corporate customers to have their system integrated between their computers at work, their phones and their other mobile devices then companies may go that direction and adopt Apple Computers. Mind you for this to happen the prices of the computers will have to come WAYYYYYY down.

OctavarIan

Did they seriously just show off full screen apps? I mean I watched the entire thing but I'm still confused. What year am I in?

Also, 13" Macbook Air 1440x900, 11.6" Macbook Air 1368x768, 13" Macbook Pro 1280x800.

13" Macbook Pro is for suckers right now. Thing needs a resolution boost and an i3 at least. When compared to the ordinary Macbook and now the new Macbook Air it's really limp.

Hogzy

Did they announce any portable DVD-ROM?

Sad Professor

Irish Apple Store is back up. Euro prices mostly the same, except for the upper spec 11-inch Air which is €1,149.

aidan_walsh

Hmm. Lots of iOS influence. Didn't look as bad as I thought it might.

Few things that struck me. I wonder is iLife going to be available as separate apps in the App Store much as iWork is?

Are system upgrades going to be distributed through the App Store? Is Lion?
Wouldn't that be cool? One click purchase, backup to Time Capsule and upgrade to 10.7.

fjon

Couldn't find a date for Facetime being released - did they mention that? Know a few folks with iPhone 4s and think I would use it a bit.

Sad Professor

I had dismissed the idea of a Mac App Store in the past, but one (admittedly obvious) benefit which I hadn't considered is just the sheer convenience of being able to download an application from a central location rather than have to go buy a disc or navigate through the developer's (crappy) website. For this reason alone, I think it will be a big success.

I agree, aidan, about the iOS influence. Much better than I thought. But I still think a lot of it is pointless. Launchpad especially - I mean how is this better than the Dock? However, the merging of Exposé, Spaces and Dashboard into Mission Control was probably needed. And at least Jobs seemed to shoot down the idea of a touch-screen Mac.

Beta of Facetime is supposed to be out today.

Elessar

Lovely machines, but if I wanted an ultraportable I certainly wouldn't pay €1000 for it! Certainly not for those specs.

My MBP never leaves my house anyway.

I was hoping to see MBP updates though

reverenddave

apple sadly overpricing themselves again those netbooks will never sell in big numbers

other then my MBP my acer aspire is the exact same size as the 11" macbok air with twice the hd space and the same ram and its running leopard and cost me €300

sorry to say but stupid pricing like that shít will be the death of apple eventually

Bonavox

Not happy about the prices of the new Airs, but I wasn't expecting to, either. They were backed into a corner where they would just eat into iPad sales if they went any lower so that's understandable. Still not too happy with the specs, though.

creativedrinker

A life related question, I'm looking at buying the new version but I've two macs in the house, both on the same apple sign in details... Does this mean i can buy the single to use on both or will I have to splash out the extra dish for the family version??

New Mac air is tiny!! I'm always amazed how small they can get products these days!

finno

fjon wrote: »

Couldn't find a date for Facetime being released - did they mention that? Know a few folks with iPhone 4s and think I would use it a bit.

You can download the Beta now on www.apple.com/mac/facetime.

KeithM89_old

I was planning on getting a 13inch pro for college but il think il get the 13" Air - even though its slightly more expensive.

Cant wait to try the new iMovie - it looks amazing

thecommander

reverenddave wrote: »

sorry to say but stupid pricing like that shít will be the death of apple eventually

Seems to be working out ok for them so far.

J2D2

When I saw the original Macbook Air, it seemed more like an exercise in who could make the slimmest laptop. It wasn't all that powerful or useful. Now though it seems they've finally jammed in some decent specs... but without the disk drive it still has that awful stink of netbook. A world filled only by downloads is not going to happen for a while yet.

The worst thing about it is:

Both are available today starting at $1000. That'll get you the smaller Air with a 1.4GHz Core2Duo and 64GB of storage, while for $1200 you can upgrade to 128GB with the same processor. The 13.3-inch MBA starts off at a 1.86GHz processor and 128GB of storage for $1300, and opting for 256GB bumps the price to $1600. The base models start at 2GB of RAM but are upgradeable to 4GB and it looks as though they provide you with a USB stick with the OS.

Gizmodo

It seems extortionate to expect this amount of money for what little storage your getting, it almost makes it defunct in lieu of the Macbook pro.

I didn't understand the Air when it was released originally and I still don't now

reverenddave

thecommander wrote: »

Seems to be working out ok for them so far.

the first macbook air didnt do good at all

from what i remember they sold less then half the number of units then they were hoping for

Sad Professor

The problem with the previous Air was the price relative to the Plasticbook and 13-inch Macbook Pro. This is still a problem to a lesser degree with the new 13-inch, but the 11-inch is the same price as the Plasticbook and I think will prove quite popular.

There's a definitely a market for this type of notebook. Any of Apple's other Macbooks are good enough to replace a desktop. The days in which laptops were only suitable as secondary machines are over. And yet many people still do need something small and compact for carrying around - it doesn't need to be particularly powerful or have an optical drive or a lot of storage space. Mobile devices like the iPad and iPhone have largely filled this gap, but their limitations, especially in terms of typing and productivity, have been well documented.

Personally, I really need the portability. I use my 13-inch MBP at the moment (which I also use with an external display as a desktop), but as compact as it is, I still find it a hassle to drag around, and the iPad ain't up the task of replacing it. The 11-inch Air, however, would be perfect: it's thinner, smaller and half the weight. I'm very tempted to break into my savings to get one.

silvine

Watched the video about the Mac Air on the Apple website. In between all the hyperbole, the designers talk about how having a multi-touch screen in a laptop is just not practical! I guess the same thinking applies to the iMac.

I like the look of the new Air and the idea of a flash drive and I could definitely get by without a disc drive (maybe because I've an iMac). The specs and battery life on the 11inch model are pretty weedy. A five hour battery life in real life normally means 3.

Lion looks impressive particularly mission control (expose and spaces is my fav thing about Leopard). Hopefully they bring tabs to the Finder window too.

conor.hogan.2

SL has feckin fullscreen already - and if I want to get to the dektop I use exposé.

I know they are touting it as different and great - but its not. Like some developers have already made it availible in their apps, nothing new.

If you have an app folder in your dock you can get that feature already in SL - it is not new if you tout it as ''just like an iphone" I can already make folders pff. making it full screen and using some iOS style layout wow but its pretty much the same.

is mission control replacing spaces??? (a laptop is not big enuf to show all items like that - that is why people use spaces with expose and go into dashboard when needed)

Seriously wtf?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_R8nxMxEpM - facetime from iphone to laptop with steve jobs after event.

thecommander

reverenddave wrote: »

the first macbook air didnt do good at all

from what i remember they sold less then half the number of units then they were hoping for

So one at nearly half the price & better specs will be the death knell for apple?

Spipov

i know its available online and all, but im wondering when pcworld and compub are going to have it. dont fancy a trek to belfast this weekend

and even though it says ship 1-2 business days on apple site, im not sure where its coming from hence how long it will take to get here.

im getting a 13" 1.83. going to sell my mbp 13. will be cycling everyday, the lighter and thinner the better.

peejay1986

I'm genuinly curious - was the reason to use Core2Duos as opposed to i(3/5/7)s in the new Air purely to make it more affordable to consumers? Core2Duo range are well on their way out in terms of technology and when launching the latest MBPs, Apple made a big deal about what an improvement these chips were in terms of both performance and power saving. Surely they could've opted for the i3 processor to bring the CPU a little more up to date.

Pretty confused about that one so any information that I'm unsure of would be great to hear.

Wibbs

The main problem I have with the Air? Forget the lack of inputs and expandability and the fact you need another mac to make them go for anything approaching usefulness ATM(that may well change with the mainstream mac app store). It's their longevity and robustness. They're incredibly delicate in real world use. A smaller one may be more robust, but still I'll await developments on that score.

condra

If they ever come close to locking down applications for OSX, they will lose a ton of customers, including me.

Sad Professor

peejay1986 wrote: »

I'm genuinly curious - was the reason to use Core2Duos as opposed to i(3/5/7)s in the new Air purely to make it more affordable to consumers? Core2Duo range are well on their way out in terms of technology and when launching the latest MBPs, Apple made a big deal about what an improvement these chips were in terms of both performance and power saving. Surely they could've opted for the i3 processor to bring the CPU a little more up to date.

Pretty confused about that one so any information that I'm unsure of would be great to hear.

I assume for the same reason they weren't able to put them in the 13 inch MBP - there isn't enough space. Intel and Nvidia are have a bit of a spat and Apple feel having a discrete graphics card is more important. The alternative would be an i3 with integrated Intel graphics.

Fysh

Glad to see that Apple saw some common sense with the new Airs and gave them a second USB port, but having had nothing but misery trying to support those poxy USB ethernet adapters at work (they don't play nice with USB hubs, including the ones built into CinemaDisplays, and they seem to have some sort of Linkflap Inducement subroutine when connected to our switches) it's annoying to see that they've still not bothered to provide on-board ethernet.

The minimalist approach to connectivity and interfaces on the Air is still pathetic IMO, though the joy of having an even moderately-decent 11.6" laptop available from one of my workplace's approved suppliers will probably make me overlook this for the time being...

Wibbs

condra wrote: »

If they ever come close to locking down applications for OSX, they will lose a ton of customers, including me.

That's their plan I reckon and they'll gain more customers than they lose. In the short term anyway. They're moving away from "computers." Oh they'll still produce them, but as portals for iTunes for the core of their business.

IMHO from early on oul Stevie was looking at the iPod model. The machinery was almost secondary to the delivery of content. Keep the machine simple, but make it look nice and make it easy to connect to their stuff, but not easy at all to not. Again IMHO the original air was an experiment to see if people would pony up enough wedge for a mac that was objectively speaking feature free. No expandability, connectivity was useless and delicate isn't in it(they also had a fair whack of failures of the flash drive version). They saw the iphone going ballistic and again the ipod model/ the app store was fueling it. It was costing them feck all to maintain it and the profits were and are massive. I reckon the air was also a toe in the water to set the price point for their tablet.

Now it's great as a biz model and Steve yet again has changed tack and invented another revenue stream and one they can control. If mac goes appstore? no more cd/dvds to watch movies or install software. Kills most piracy in both software and content and producers will beat a path to their door. The guy is a bona fide genius in a way Bill Gates never was on that score. So how may it pan out? I've often heard people wonder why the iphone unit updates were so incremental, especially when the android lot jumped into a similar model and had the latest and the greatest features in their phones. Reason? They have to preserve the itunes biz model. They can't afford to make huge leaps with the phone tech, simply because it mightn't be backward compatible with their app store content. That's where android may have issues.

My concern is that for the core of their business in actual PC's this incremental trajectory will also hold sway. Oh they'll get a little faster and a little more "designed" but actual innovation may well be in thrall to iTunes. Steve is well known for liking one button tech and minimilism. He got rid of floppies in 99, brought in usb, single button mice. Now with air/ipad/iphone, bye bye cd/dvd, wired networking, expandability. He doesnt like too many options and he's right, most end users dont care. That's why ipod "won". Far better players were out at the time, but outside of audio/techie nerds the vast majority out there just want play, stop FF, RW, shuffle and volume. In a way they may have painted themselves into a corner. They'll still keep producing the mac pro type towers for the pro's, but the core will be "iPhone" macs.

My 3 cents anyway.

Sad Professor

Well, according to Apple their profits from iTunes and the App Store are very small. They say their target with content delivery is just to break even and bit, and the figures they've released would seem to support this. Their core revenue comes from the same thing it always did: hardware sales. They use iTunes/App Store content to help sell their iDevices. This might change in the future, but I don't see any of evidence of it happening yet.

The original Air was an experiment alright, but an experiment in making a very small and light notebook, minus all the (increasingly redundant) stuff that weighs it down. Laptops have gotten very big over the years with 15-inches becoming the minimum size for many people, while in the meantime many Mac users have been begging Apple to release a successor to the 12-inch Powerbook. Those people got their wish yesterday.

The idea that Apple are planning to lock down the Mac to applications is ridiculous. If Apple are smart enough to realise that you can't just slap a desktop OS on a tablet, and if they are smart enough to realise that touchscreen isn't suitable for a desktop/notebook, why would they be so stupid as to kill their computer business by inexplicably bringing the iPhone/iPad's approach to applications to the Mac? I've yet to see a single valid argument for why they would want to do this.

The real danger to the Mac isn't iOS's closed ecosystem philosophy, it's that Apple just aren't particularly arsed about the Mac anymore, as I think Lion's delayed and rather underwhelming presentation proved. But this is going to be an issue across the computer industry. Mobile devices are the future and it's where all the potential innovation is right now.

Fysh

Wibbs wrote: »

Now it's great as a biz model and Steve yet again has changed tack and invented another revenue stream and one they can control. If mac goes appstore? no more cd/dvds to watch movies or install software. Kills most piracy in both software and content and producers will beat a path to their door.

Depends on whether the consortium behind the likes of Blu-Ray like the idea or not. Given how much Sony have put into getting people aboard the Blu-Ray experience (not to mention all the factions trying to push 3D-at-home setups) I'm not sure this would work.

Besides which, Apple wouldn't be the first to offer network based films/tv shows/software. Hulu, netflix, steam have all been there before. The moderate-at-best performance of the Apple TV shows that Apple aren't doing well enough in that area to start calling shots like that. And personally I can only say Christ save us from an iTunes based future.


The guy is a bona fide genius in a way Bill Gates never was on that score. So

Wibbs wrote: »

My concern is that for the core of their business in actual PC's this incremental trajectory will also hold sway. Oh they'll get a little faster and a little more "designed" but actual innovation may well be in thrall to iTunes. Steve is well known for liking one button tech and minimilism. He got rid of floppies in 99, brought in usb, single button mice. Now with air/ipad/iphone, bye bye cd/dvd, wired networking, expandability. He doesnt like too many options and he's right, most end users dont care.

When wireless routers are good enough to never fall over, and wireless connectivity doesn't occasionally spazz out for no reason, and the Apple USB Ethernet adapter doesn't come with built-in cruftware to check whether you're using an MBA or not and plays nice with USB hubs, and batteries last long enough that having a built-in battery doesn't simply guarantee that you pay Apple a bunch of money to have it replaced in two years time, I'll believe that this is a good idea. Until then, it's stupid.

There's also Apple's ongoing failure to provide business-class support for those products that they claim are for business use (but on which they won't offer the VAT exemption that business users normally get - yes, I'm looking at you, Office Productivity section of the App Store). When Apple finally offer on-site hardware support for laptops as well as desktops (like most other laptop vendors targeting business audiences will offer), I'll take them that bit more seriously.

On the other hand, enough people actually believe Apple's marketing, so I can't help but think that as a whole we get the computing environment we've got coming...

Wibbs

They use iTunes/App Store content to help sell their iDevices. This might change in the future, but I don't see any of evidence of it happening yet.

That's my point though. The app store model is driving sales of their mobile devices. It's about the biggest driver at the moment and that they may be trying to bring that more to the core PC business. The iphone would not be the market leader today without it and the ipod would be up there with the zune.

The original Air was an experiment alright, but an experiment in making a very small and light notebook, minus all the (increasingly redundant) stuff that weighs it down.

Well if so they kinda came late to that party, what with netbooks being around before them at significantly lower prices, small form factor and more features. They've reinvented the wheel at best.

Laptops have gotten very big over the years with 15-inches becoming the minimum size for many people,

I agree 100% on that score alright.

while in the meantime many Mac users have been begging Apple to release a successor to the 12-inch Powerbook.

True. It was a form factor seriously lacking in their lineup. I have one of those old 12 inchers and its a grand piece of kit size wise.

Those people got their wish yesterday.

Well they were presented with their wish anyway. I would buy that more if the new mac was nearly as slim but with a cd drive etc, but that would kill the macbook range, if not whack the 13" macbook pro while it was at it.

The idea that Apple are planning to lock down the Mac to applications is ridiculous.

You reckon. Look back at the iPhone development trajectory from the get go. Look how it developed and look how successful it has been.

If Apple are smart enough to realise that you can't just slap a desktop OS on a tablet, and if they are smart enough to realise that touchscreen isn't suitable for a desktop/notebook,

Well a mixture of good sense and existing resources. The iphone os only required tweaking to go on the tablet and it was hitting the ground running because of the existing groundswell of apps on the iphone. The killer app for the ipad was the store. It would make sense to at least try that with their PCs.

They may say a touchscreen on a laptop isn't suitable, but IMHO its more to do with again existing resources and not bashing into other product lines. ipad is a good product but a keyboard would be a bonus for many. If they had made this new macbook an ipad with a keyboard the ipad line would have suffered(and like I said so would the small macbooks). It reminds me of the old days of Newton OS. Their first and actually very impressive foray into the mobile market. While people joked with the first one, the later ones worked very well(and still have a following out there believe it or not, though has died off since iphone etc). I've used a mates later 2100 and its remarkably good especially considering the age. The emate was originally an in house attempt to put it all together, touchscreen and keyboard. Now costs scaled up and the mooted pro version was scrapped in favour of the education model(which was still daft money nearly a grand), but I have one of those and do use it the odd time for taking notes etc even email :eek: (instant on, no worries re saving, 24hr + battery life, very robust ). You might be surprised how useful a touchscreen on a laptop can actually be. I'm always a little dubious when someone tells me, "oh we didnt put that in because it wouldnt be useful" as an explanation of why it doesnt have it.

why would they be so stupid as to kill their computer business by inexplicably bringing the iPhone/iPad's approach to applications to the Mac? I've yet to see a single valid argument for why they would want to do this.

Simples, it wouldnt kill their pc biz. Likely grow it and they would have the backing of the software and content industries right behind them. The average iphone/ipad user is now used to downloading apps through the store, ditto with music and movies/TV. You have a large population out there that have come to Apple not through their PCs and accept that's how its done. The software and content companies love it as it increases their control of the product and control of their revenue stream. There is a lot and I mean a lot of pirated software(and content) out there, especially on the mac*. How much pirated software is on the iphone? Very very little and its not easy to do(and largely not worth doing for a 1.99 app). While this is a pain for notions of open platforms it's also an advantage to the average end user. It drives down costs. EG If 98% of adobe photoshop installs out there were legit and paid for, then I guarantee it wouldnt cost nearly as much as it does, or at least they would find it damned hard to justify the high price.

The real danger to the Mac isn't iOS's closed ecosystem philosophy, it's that Apple just aren't particularly arsed about the Mac anymore, as I think Lion's delayed and rather underwhelming presentation proved. But this is going to be an issue across the computer industry. Mobile devices are the future and it's where all the potential innovation is right now.

I would agree, especially when you consider what most people actually use a computer for. Even in work outside of specialty areas. Email, browsing, typing, media, games(though Wii etc grabs a lot of that). Most are using machines that are much more powerful(or focused wrongly) with more options than they actually need(hell Im typing this on a 10 year old Pismo that I often use for browsing ). The mobile direction has shown that to be more the case than its not. I would have predicted back when the iPhone first took off that its platform would become increasingly like the desktop OS(and I had good reason to believe so. Long story), but now I would predict that the convergence is going to going the other way across the board.

Though I'm also mindful that every ten years something is "the future". Sometimes they're right, but often they're wrong, or at least they miss something big that takes things in another direction. To be fair to Apple and especially jobs, they are very very good at spotting what the actual future is. And creating it.


* I guarantee the majority reading this have non legit software somewhere on their machines. From the extreme "I never buy what I can warez" types to the "Oh I'm legit. Well I did get a snow leopard install from a mate. Oh yea and fonts, forgot about them". If there isn't a single bit of grey area software on your mac(or PC) then you're a rare bunny.

Wibbs

Fysh wrote: »

Depends on whether the consortium behind the likes of Blu-Ray like the idea or not. Given how much Sony have put into getting people aboard the Blu-Ray experience (not to mention all the factions trying to push 3D-at-home setups) I'm not sure this would work.

Besides which, Apple wouldn't be the first to offer network based films/tv shows/software. Hulu, netflix, steam have all been there before. The moderate-at-best performance of the Apple TV shows that Apple aren't doing well enough in that area to start calling shots like that.

True, but they're about the only player in the IT biz that might do it. Look at the music/mp3 market. Look back when Apple first got into it. Not too dissimilar to the visual media market today with various players fighting for dominance in a period of flux.

When wireless routers are good enough to never fall over, and wireless connectivity doesn't occasionally spazz out for no reason, and the Apple USB Ethernet adapter doesn't come with built-in cruftware to check whether you're using an MBA or not and plays nice with USB hubs, and batteries last long enough that having a built-in battery doesn't simply guarantee that you pay Apple a bunch of money to have it replaced in two years time, I'll believe that this is a good idea. Until then, it's stupid.

I agree. Smells too much like marketing than practicality. I also agree on the batteries. Like I said in the previous post I'm typing this on a 10 year old powerbook g3 pismo running tiger. The battery I have is also 10 years old and it still charges and runs for a couple of hours of normal use on full brightness as do the other two 10 year old batteries I have(one of which was stuck in my damp shed for at least 6 years). And it has removable drive bays, both of which could be upgraded by apple or third parties or have a battery in both doubling your useful battery life. Even the processor card is upgradeable. It has built in ethernet, two firewire and two usb ports, built in wireless(and a modem ). It's a third thicker than a MB pro, weighs slightly less and looks in better condition after ten years than my two year old MBp. The latter I've had two new batteries in. Even with a new battery in the MB the fossil runs for slightly longer with the two. If they were building macs like that with that quality, not just the percieved quality of "oh its thin and metal you know" and that expandability, with the reliability they were rightly renowned for I'd feel better about them as a company tbh. IMHO their reliability has gone down in the last 3 or 4 years.

There's also Apple's ongoing failure to provide business-class support for those products that they claim are for business use (but on which they won't offer the VAT exemption that business users normally get - yes, I'm looking at you, Office Productivity section of the App Store). When Apple finally offer on-site hardware support for laptops as well as desktops (like most other laptop vendors targeting business audiences will offer), I'll take them that bit more seriously.

+1. Their business "support" is just lip service IMHO. It's not the market they're after. Never was anytime Jobs was in control

On the other hand, enough people actually believe Apple's marketing, so I can't help but think that as a whole we get the computing environment we've got coming...

True, but I would say people also believe the windows/linux/android stuff too. Though it's more driven from the ground up, but yes I agree we get the products we've got coming or accept, regardless of actual realities of what we think we need, never mind what we do.

Fysh

Wibbs wrote: »

True, but they're about the only player in the IT biz that might do it. Look at the music/mp3 market. Look back when Apple first got into it. Not too dissimilar to the visual media market today with various players fighting for dominance in a period of flux.

The problem is, they had the chance to steal this market when the Apple TV first came out, and they fumbled it. With things like the BBC iPlayer having a dedicated Wii app, a bunch of busybox-type units available, and internet-enabled TVs becoming more common, Apple will have a much harder job of convincing people that their way is the way to go than they would have a few years back.

Wibbs wrote: »

True, but I would say people also believe the windows/linux/android stuff too. Though it's more driven from the ground up, but yes I agree we get the products we've got coming or accept, regardless of actual realities of what we think we need, never mind what we do.

Oh, don't get me started about Windows marketing. Considering that they've gotten some stuff right in both Vista and Windows 7, I want to throttle whatever fetal alcohol syndrome case it was that commissioned and approved the ads they've been using.

The whole "android is free" thing is annoying too, although I'd say Linux as a whole is more a movement based around getting people to learn how to actually use their computers properly. Sure, some of the evangelists are dicks about it, but you get that with every platform....

conor.hogan.2

Apple won't fully lock osx like iOS - much like how they won't put iOS to replace osx on the desktop.

They are not idiots.

But they made a way to make osx more iOS like and they are locking down the mac app store from what has been released so far

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/362131/apple-looking-to-ditch-java

and it will only get worse - they can leverage their iOS strength to get more people to move to macs and then they can do whatever they want through their mac app store as they are nowhere near a monopoly on desktop.

Wibbs

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Apple won't fully lock osx like iOS - much like how they won't put iOS to replace osx on the desktop.

They are not idiots.

Oh I agree. They would be damned stupid to pull it now, but I would bet the farm that if they could and got the software producers on board they would.

But they made a way to make osx more iOS like and they are locking down the mac app store from what has been released so far

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/362131/apple-looking-to-ditch-java

and it will only get worse - they can leverage their iOS strength to get more people to move to macs and then they can do whatever they want through their mac app store as they are nowhere near a monopoly on desktop.

Like I say, if they could do it I strongly suspect they would. Like you say and I was saying earlier there are a lot of people out there happily using a mac OS and downloading environment, just not a desktop one. I reckon Steve is thinking the long game. Their share has grown in the desktop market, but it is still small, but if one was to just base it on OS overall? Their share, especially their mindset share is much bigger. I really doubt Steve's looking at business or even the high end machines we think of PC's at the moment. Like he has said "why build trucks when most people want to drive cars?" If he could leverage the iPhone experience to the whole of the personal computer world, he would. Apple would still build a few trucks(mac pros et al), but the core would be the cars and attendant roads they would drive on. iPad/iPhone/Air type devices.

conor.hogan.2

I really see osxII (11 - liOS or whatever they call it) as being the death to the finder.

Apple dont like doing two os's so the mac pros and larger machines would be using the same desktop os as the lower consumer laptops so they wont screw with professionals hardware wise but they will be forced to use the same os as consumers.

The event should have been called "back to the mac to show you how we are changing the mac because we really really dont care about it - but we have to keep it"

thecommander

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

I really see osxII (11 - liOS or whatever they call it) as being the death to the finder.

Apple dont like doing two os's so the mac pros and larger machines would be using the same desktop os as the lower consumer laptops so they wont screw with professionals hardware wise but they will be forced to use the same os as consumers.

The event should have been called "back to the mac to show you how we are changing the mac because we really really dont care about it - but we have to keep it"

Bull.

Do you think they'll alienate all of their pro customers by locking down the system?

Fysh

thecommander wrote: »

Bull.

Do you think they'll alienate all of their pro customers by locking down the system?

The argument could be made that Apple came damn close to financial catastrophe by focusing primarily on those pro customers in the past, so if they think that the way to keep their premium consumer market happy will require upsetting the pro market I'd expect them to do it anyway.

Aside from which, the whole notion of swathes of graphic design professionals being slaved to Apple gear isn't really accurate any more, since that notion was predicated on Macs having the best software suites for design work. These days Quark has been superseded by Adobe's Indesign, and Adobe's entire creativity suite favours Windows over OS X. Not sure how things are playing out in the film industry though.

conor.hogan.2

They may keep the finder etc in the os much like how the terminal is still there - but it will be pushed down and hidden.

Either way if you want to develop for iOS you need a mac - developers put up with a lot of **** like using ie6 and eclipse for example.

Wibbs

thecommander wrote: »

Bull.

Do you think they'll alienate all of their pro customers by locking down the system?

By locking them into an app store? I don't see how that will alienate that many TBH. Not if it means cheaper legit software and a one stop shop for buying apps. Some were pissed off at the iOS/app store being locked down, but its down nothing to dent their mainstream sales as it goes from strength to strength and pretty much invented a new software delivery environment.

As for alienation and apple? The Adobe suite would be among the biggest pro apps on the platform and Steve it appears has no great issue with rubbing them up the wrong way over non support of flash, nor did he have much issue with putting features in the built in Preview app that had most of the features of the reader and indeed a couple of features of the pro. Don't be too shocked if he rubs them up the wrong way even more(and has something up his sleeve on that score). Historically he is not a man who likes things too much out of his remit on "his" mac platform.

Look how the pro video editing side went. Avid were the boys in editing and with the support of oul Stevie and Apple. Then a bit of friction kicks off over Avid on windows and what happens next? Apple start quietly buying up small software companies and licences and Final cut pro gets rolled out. Which slashed the price overnight of pro editing from many tens of thousands down to one(plus the mac). Oh sure there are folks still using Avid on mac out there, but FCP is by far the market leader on PC level systems(and Avid had to slash and burn their prices while they were at it).

Let's look more at it. Apple are already moving away from flash support, and it looks like Java is next. They're twitchy around Adobe and with the release of Iwork, MS office is less an issue for them whether MS keep producing it or not(throw in open/neo office and I dont know why MS keep going at it TBH). They're creating an OSX app store, which they're not going to want to leave as a wasteland, so will be looking to sign old companies up and encourage new ones. So I don't see what's "bull" about the notion of more convergence of the OS's and especially convergence on how they do business across the consumer/pro divide.

Sure if they do go down this road to some degree, they may alienate some of the fanbois, but they alienated some of them when Newton got dropped, when USB came in, when floppies were dropped, when prices started to climb, when they became more consumer fashionable etc. Their business is very healthy and growing so I doubt that this is much of a concern tbh.

More to the point I don't see how this is "bull" when Jobs himself is saying much the same thing, even at this early stage. Lion is integrating some of the user experiences of iOS, the new Air he has said more than once "adopted iPad features". Now on the face of it it doesnt beyond looking like an ipad with a keyboard, but like I said in my first post it does start to suggest what is down the line. It'll be for the majority of users a mobile world, with specialised workstations for those who actually require it. Like Jobs has said, "why build trucks when most people drive and want cars". I agree with him too. If the majority of your needs are served and served nicely through mobile type devices, with "PC" for the specilaised tasks then I'm all for it.

I recall many moons ago when people bought far more desktops than laptops. Indeed laptops were considered the poor cousin and a bit of a necessary evil if you had to be mobile. Look how that has changed.

I was running mac laptops since my first powerbook 140, followed by a 540 c because for me they were more useful and integrated into my needs more(albeit slowly) and they were innovative in design. The laptop today has it's basic design because of Apple(nada to do with mr Jobs either). Now I always had a desktop too. A more powerful yoke for when I needed that and I can see the same dynamic unfolding again today. Trucks and cars.

Fysh wrote: »

Aside from which, the whole notion of swathes of graphic design professionals being slaved to Apple gear isn't really accurate any more, since that notion was predicated on Macs having the best software suites for design work. These days Quark has been superseded by Adobe's Indesign, and Adobe's entire creativity suite favours Windows over OS X.

I wouldnt agree having experience of both. Yes you can use the suite on windows but it's not nearly as integrated and it flows less. Colour management on windows is still not up to the same par and is an extra cost on top anyway. Font management isn't much better. There was a drift away a few years ago, but they pulled that back and they're pretty much still top of the heap in graphic design.

Not sure how things are playing out in the film industry though.

In the movie game editing wise anyway it would be Avid V FCP. FCP is more in play at that price point worldwide. The rest of the film industry (outside of accounts) is also majorly mac based.