Are cyclists singled out a bit too much?

HivemindXX

I saw someone post a message equating pedestrians going through red lights with bicycles doing the same. Then I saw a bunch of stuff comparing the potential for injury of bicycles and cars. I don't know if all this math was trying to validate the "bicycles, they're just pedestrians really (when it suits us)" attitude, but in case it was it seems to me that it's pretty relevant to compare cyclists and pedestrians too.

100k cyclist + bike @ 20kph = significant impact
100k pedestrian @ 5kph = insignificant
# of hard and/or sharp objects on a bicycle = many
# of hard and/or sharp objects on a pedestrian = few to none

As for the attitude that people have to break right lights to manage as a cyclist this is like the attitude that people have to drive drunk if they live in the country or they have to cheat on the social welfare to live. Obviously people manage to cycle every day without jumping red lights whenever it suits them. It might take an extra few minutes to get to work if you stop for the lights. I stop at every light and I've managed not to have a truck park on top of me yet. I think perhaps the danger of not stopping at red lights might be over stated.

ednwireland

TunaSaladBB wrote: »

Just comparatively speaking! I'd still consider myself a very safe driver.

this statement probably means your not.

poochiem

ThisRegard wrote: »

That's my route too but there's no need to go on the path or get off the bike, just keep an eye out as you would at every other junction on the canal.

Sorry, I was unclear, I turn onto clanbrassil st there but right turns are illegal so I tend to pull into the left lane of the northbound and wait for the lights or more often than not I pull onto the traffic island and 'pesestrianize' to cross the road onto the bridge. Honestly have yet to see the lights observed legally by drivers there, it's incredible.

coolbeans

doozerie wrote: »

They're not really out to get you, you know. You shouldn't take films like this to heart:

You clearly haven't cycled up Townsend Street heading north at rush hour then.

TunaSaladBB

doozerie wrote: »

So you are the elusive superhero with the infallible observational skills and the ability to predict the actions of others before they've even decided for themselves. I was beginning to think you didn't exist, what with the huge numbers of people involved in accidents who insist that they never saw that pedestrian/cyclist/car/tree/etc. before they collided with it. It's good to know that there is someone perfect out there, suiting himself/herself but obviously without posing any risk whatsoever to the rest of us. What's your secret, is it wearing your underpants outside your trousers that gives you your powers, or maybe an ability to bend time?

I never suggested that I was perfect or infallible. I am, however, a safe cyclist.

HivemindXX wrote: »

I saw someone post a message equating pedestrians going through red lights with bicycles doing the same. Then I saw a bunch of stuff comparing the potential for injury of bicycles and cars. I don't know if all this math was trying to validate the "bicycles, they're just pedestrians really (when it suits us)" attitude, but in case it was it seems to me that it's pretty relevant to compare cyclists and pedestrians too.

100k cyclist + bike @ 20kph = significant impact
100k pedestrian @ 5kph = insignificant
# of hard and/or sharp objects on a bicycle = many
# of hard and/or sharp objects on a pedestrian = few to none

I think I'm the poster you're referring to. Pedestrians breaking reds does not equate to cyclists doing same. You're absolutely right that a cyclist is more dangerous in a collision than a pedestrian is. However, exercising caution while going through any junction with any colour of light. Speaking for myself, I'd never go through a red light at 20kph, I'd drop to 10 max.

ednwireland wrote: »

this statement probably means your not.

No it doesn't. On a bike: zero road accidents in 20 years. Driving a car: zero road accidents in 6 years.

SleepDoc

TunaSaladBB wrote: »

I never suggested that I was perfect or infallible. I am, however, a safe cyclist.


No it doesn't. On a bike: zero road accidents in 20 years. Driving a car: zero road accidents in 6 years.

6 years without an accident is not the definition of a safe driver.

I don't know what the definition of one is, but I know that I'm not, you're not, he's not and she's not.

-Chris-

Dunno if we'll get a definitive of a safe driver to be honest.

SleepDoc

-Chris- wrote: »

Dunno if we'll get a definitive of a safe driver to be honest, let's get back on-topic.

Fair enough.

I do think cyclists are getting a bad press at the moment, mostly from illiterate Independent newspaper journalists (well one).

Singled out though? Not particularly.

coolbeans

Singled out too much? Yes, I think so. Sure, lots of cyclists do act the bollox but the consequences of this are pretty minor compared to motorists behaving badly, however the reaction to this in certain sections of the media is pretty Israeli to say the least. Maybe it's because mass cycling to work is a relatively new phenomenon here. Every day I see cyclists do stupid things, every day. Really stupid and annoying things, so much so that I often want to knock the ****ers off their bikes. However, I now regularly see motorists run reds at almost every junction in Dublin; that's no exaggeration, every junction. I think there isn't enough said about this especially when you consider the very serious consequences for third parties. I drive. I understand the frustrations of driving in the city but I think twice about running reds when I realise the damage I could do to others.

kona

monument wrote: »

Are cyclists singled out a bit too much for breaking the law?

As far as I can see -- as groups -- cyclists, motorists, and pedestrians all break the law on a regular bases. But cyclists seem to be always wrongly seen -- by cyclists and others -- as breaking the law more than any other group.

And no cyclists are not the only ones who break the law in serious ways. And, yes, I'm also annoyed by cyclists breaking red lights while I'm standing there waiting for green but I'm just as much annoyed by drivers.

Every day motorists overtake cyclists too closely, speed up and beep when pedestrians are legally crossing the road, drive too close to other cars, use their phone when driving, break speed limits, stop in advance stop lines, stop in pedestrian crossing, run orange lights when they have time to stop, run red lights (maybe mostly when filter lights have not gone green, but I see other cases too, speeding up at orange lights and passing when red is the main one). There's also epidemic levels of parking on footpaths, cycle tracks and, maybe lesser so, bus lanes when they are not suppose to be there.

Every day pedestrians cross when the red man is shown.

Why are cyclists singled out when there's fairly wide-spread breaking of the rules by all groups?

Nope, Majority of cyclists are retarded, very few stop at lights , dont seem to have a iota of cop on and are a danger to everybody else on the road in in some real darwin situations footpaths.

Ive given up all hope on these gimps , **** bikes, **** attitude and worst of all ALWAYS ****ing pull in infront of me on the off chance they feel like stopping at lights.

and

HIVIS Jacket /= Lights you ****ing retards.

Yes I cycle everyday.

coolbeans

Gotta agree, hi vis does not equal lights and it look sooo sh1t too!

agriva8

I agree with kona.... it's mostly stupid asshats on dublin bikes on my commute who have no fecking idea how to ride, no consideration for pedestrians/cyclists alike!
Grrrrrrrrrrr >:-(

ThisRegard

coolbeans wrote: »

Gotta agree, hi vis does not equal lights and it look sooo sh1t too!

You just can't pull it off, you must have the typical pasty face Irish complection. I look simply fantastic in it though.

Jawgap

Are cyclists singled out a bit too much? Probably.

anyone ever have the experience of a colleague / friend / family member getting hold of you and starting a conversation with "You're a cyclist......." before going on to complain to you about an incident they've witnessed invovling a cyclist? I've just had another one of those this morning from a colleague.

I usually explain that we don't all know each other - there's no secret handshake - or if there is I haven't been let in on it!:)

How come no one comes in and goes to someone - "hey, you're motorist....." or "hey, you use the Luas......"

doozerie

Two incidents, of the many that I see regularly, but both of these occurred on the same day (last Friday):

* While on the bike I was stopped at a red light at Yellow House in Rathfarnham, coming from city centre direction. An ambulance came up behind with siren sounding so cars in the straight-ahead and right-only lanes moved further apart to allow the ambulance through. One bright spark in the right-only lane decided to pull his car quite far into the lane for oncoming traffic, much further over than any cars behind or in front of him so it was entirely pointless. Ambulance went through and all other traffic continued to wait at the red lights.
A bunch of schoolkids were crossing from the Yellow House side over to the church side of the same road. All that was missing was a pregnant granny pushing a pram full of kittens. Head-the-ball that pulled his car too far over, who was about the 3rd car from the front of the right-turning queue, obviously decided that he didn't like the situation so he pulled entirely over onto the oncoming lane, drove up to the junction in that lane and with the lights still red he turned right. He slowed briefly, but didn't stop, to allow the schoolkids to part and make way for him and then continued merrily on his way while I, and presumably others, just looked on in disbelief (I don't know why such ****e continues to surprise me, I seem to have a small amount of optimism knocking around for some reason).

* On Friday night I drove down the north quays and got stopped at a red light at O'Connell Bridge. There were lots of pedestrians waiting to cross. Two guys on bikes, with no lights whatsoever, came along the same stretch of road as me and cycled straight through the red light even as the pedestrians stepped out on their green light. They were both turning left onto O'Connell Street and in order to keep themselves as far away as possible from the traffic coming from the right over the bridge they kept very far to the left as they cut past the lights, skimming past the pedestrians in the process.

For those people that read both of those accounts and instantly dismiss the idiots on the bikes as being unworthy of criticism in comparison to the gob****e in the car earlier, as I suspect at least some people will, then you are entirely missing the core problem here. The core problem is that in both cases the idiot driver and the idiot cyclists were indulging in the same mindset of "ah well, I'm fine and no-one died therefore what I did was perfectly acceptable (and anyone that complains is just jealous)". Put the idiots on the bikes behind the wheel of a car and there is no reason to believe that they would behave any differently than the idiot driver that I saw - lack of any respect for other road users is not something that you can easily switch on and off as you move from one mode of transport to another.

We are a selfish species and we Irish throw a bit of chip-on-our-shoulder begrudgery into the mix too in a poor attempt to justify obnoxious and selfish behaviour on the roads. So yes, cyclists are often criticised as law breaking lunatics but to be honest there are *lots* of people/idiots on bikes who truly fall into that category so it's hardly a surprise that we as a group end up with a poor image as a result. Instead of considering whether our own behaviour really is safe and considerate though, too many cyclists instead start moaning at how our behaviour is not as bad as "that other lot" (motorists) as if this somehow excuses acting like a knob on a bike. 'Tis all very pathetic.

monument

kona wrote: »

Nope, Majority of cyclists are retarded, very few stop at lights , dont seem to have a iota of cop on and are a danger to everybody else on the road in in some real darwin situations footpaths.

Ive given up all hope on these gimps , **** bikes, **** attitude and worst of all ALWAYS ****ing pull in infront of me on the off chance they feel like stopping at lights.

Majority of motorists speed. And you also have large percentages breaking orange and often effectively breaking red lights. Also every notice the amount of advanced stop lines and stopping in ped crossings motorists stop in?

Motorists parking on footpaths are at least as dangerous as those cycling on them. The worst thing motorists do to me most often is pass me out and pull in in-front of me without the space to safely do so, normally far greater danger than cyclists doing the same.

Stuff like indicating or looking where you're going -- it's the same thing: Motorists and cyclists are much the same.

HIVIS Jacket /= Lights you ****ing retards.

Indeed. Fully agree there.

Yes I cycle everyday.

What's that got to do with it? I cycle every day too, do I win too?

doozerie

monument wrote:

Majority of motorists speed. And you also have large percentages breaking orange and often effectively breaking red lights. Also every notice the amount of advanced stop lines and stopping in ped crossings motorists stop in?

You seem to be suggesting that this idiocy on the part of some motorists justifies the idiocy on the part of some cyclists. Kids don't hedge around this kind of standpoint, they brazenly sum it up with phrases like "a big boy made me do it", "but everyone else was doing it too", and "I *had* to". These are all reasonable viewpoints in the mind of a child as children understandably believe that the world revolves entirely around them. Part of the transition to adulthood however comes with the realisation and acceptance (grudging or otherwise) that we can't just absolve ourselves of social responsibility as and when the mood takes us. Doing so is acting like a child, which amongst other things feeds the widely held view that cycling is only for children and not something that adults should be doing, which in turn leads to initiatives to remove cyclists entirely from the roads (e.g. cycle tracks) "for our own safety" as clearly we can't be relied upon to look after ourselves.

There are many other groups who similarly absolve themselves of social responsibilty, including (ironically) the most obnoxious and dangerous of drivers, corrupt politicians, corrupt bankers, most criminals, etc. It's quite an esteemed bunch of people that you choose to associate with when you adopt a mindset of "well, I can do whatever I like 'cos those other people over there are doing just that (but I still reserve the right to complain about them)".

monument

doozerie wrote: »

You seem to be suggesting that this idiocy on the part of some motorists justifies the idiocy on the part of some cyclists. ...

Why would I justify behaviour I don't approve of?

What I'm saying is that there both groups break the law -- often in similar ways, sometimes each in their own different ways or the same things to different degrees.

Chips Lovell

I don't dispute at all that motorist frequently break the law. But, as I've said in other threads, I've frequently ridden across town and not encountered a single other cyclist that stops for red lights. It's that ubiquity of law breaking I think that tends to result in cyclists getting singled out.

kona

monument wrote: »

Majority of motorists speed. And you also have large percentages breaking orange and often effectively breaking red lights. Also every notice the amount of advanced stop lines and stopping in ped crossings motorists stop in?

Motorists parking on footpaths are at least as dangerous as those cycling on them. The worst thing motorists do to me most often is pass me out and pull in in-front of me without the space to safely do so, normally far greater danger than cyclists doing the same.

Stuff like indicating or looking where you're going -- it's the same thing: Motorists and cyclists are much the same.




Indeed. Fully agree there.




What's that got to do with it? I cycle every day too, do I win too?

Most cars, in a head on impact at 40kmph , your likely to walk away. Most cyclists in a head on impact at 40kmph will be scraped off a windscreen.

Basic cop on is missing from cyclists, as a cyclist your more vulnerable to accidents and without being dramatic, death. So I think a smart step would be to NOT be a retard and break lights, etc etc.

So, I stand by my opinion, I bitch about drivers etc etc, so do the newspapers too as it happens, it just seems every little negative article about cyclists is posted here for a big bitchfest and so everybody feels they are being singled out.

IMO Ireland is full of retards, we have retards running the country, the banks, the garda, the HSE and these retards are supposedly the best we have, so obviously to further down into society you go the retard level grows.
Its a cultural problem IMO, nobody gives a **** about anybody, or respects anything.

Gone a lil off topic there but, I just feel that cyclists are singled out for being idiots and rightly so, obviously some people are capable of obeying ROTR for a commute but I think they are a minority.

doozerie

monument wrote: »

Why would I justify behaviour I don't approve of?

What I'm saying is that there both groups break the law -- often in similar ways, sometimes each in their own different ways or the same things to different degrees.

Perhaps I misinterpreted your questioning of what kona had posted. It read to me like you were dismissing criticism of idiotic actions by some cyclists on the basis that some motorists are just as guilty of being idiots too but that being motorists they are the greater problem. That is a particular mindset that is unfortunately very common and which essentially condones the idiocy of people on bikes by creating an artificial scale of "wrongness" where the bar for unacceptable behaviour moves upwards in relation to the worst antics of the worst motorists.

So yes, of course, both cyclists and motorists break the law, as do pedestrians. All of it is inconsiderate, dangerous, and basically unacceptable (socially speaking), but the law should be equally enforced against all of the groups. I think it is widely accepted that enforcement of the laws against cyclists has been ridiculously lax for a long time, which in itself leads to a bunch of problems (idiot cyclists become ever more reckless in the expectation that they'll get away with it while putting everyone else at more and more risk in the process, society as a whole continues to view cyclists as a lawless group that deserves no respect or space on the roads, etc.).

If we want a solution to the problem of the rest of society viewing us cyclists in a poor light, then we really need to start with us as a group taking more responsibility for our own inconsiderate and dangerous actions. Pointing out that another group of road users is just as bad, or worse, serves no useful purpose unless we address our own behaviour first. Otherwise we'll moan about motorists, with some justification, motorists will moan about cyclists, with some justification, and the whole farcical situation continues on with no end in sight. One place for us to start is obviously to consider our own behaviour on the road, but as a group we also need to be more vocal in our condemnation of stupid behaviour by cyclists generally in the hope that peer pressure will cause at least some of these idiots to cop themselves on. Or, if we don't want to be vocal, then we can try to set an example by actually stopping at red lights, etc.

monument

el tonto wrote: »

I don't dispute at all that motorist frequently break the law. But, as I've said in other threads, I've frequently ridden across town and not encountered a single other cyclist that stops for red lights. It's that ubiquity of law breaking I think that tends to result in cyclists getting singled out.

Yeah, cyclists breaking lights is more easy to see than motorists on a massive scale breaking the speed limit.

Speeding is widespread in the 30km/h zone, but also in 50km/h zones -- the electronic speed indicators show that, travelling in a car across Dublin shows that etc.

kona wrote: »

So, I stand by my opinion, I bitch about drivers etc etc, so do the newspapers too as it happens, it just seems every little negative article about cyclists is posted here for a big bitchfest and so everybody feels they are being singled out.

A large percentage of the articles make motorists and peds out to be saints while making out all cyclists are law breaking loons.

kona wrote: »

Gone a lil off topic there but, I just feel that cyclists are singled out for being idiots and rightly so, obviously some people are capable of obeying ROTR for a commute but I think they are a minority.

How is it right or ok to single out cyclists when motorists are also idiots?

CramCycle

Seen the funniest thing ever yesterday while coming through town. At the junction beside the side entrance to the bank of Ireland, I stopped at the red lights, so did the other cyclist that came up to the junction. Then a courier came up, and STOPPED. He kept edging forward, looking round like a child who lost his Mamai but he actually stopped (eventually he broke the light just before it went green) but the point is still clear, visible enforcement works, hurrah for the Gardai for this seemingly successful campaign, without much in the way of warning, unlike pevious campaigns, hopefully it will stop being a campaign and just the way it is from now on. I suppose if this a campaign though, they don't really need to waste money advertisement considering how much free advertisement they are getting off the huge number of threads touching upon this on multiple forums :pac:

monument

doozerie wrote: »

Pointing out that another group of road users is just as bad, or worse, serves no useful purpose unless we address our own behaviour first.

I'm a cyclist, it means I cycle a bicycle. It does not mean I am responsible for others. I did not join a club. There's no secret handshake.

That's the problem. As mentioned by some of the first replies to this thread, as a minority or 'outside' group, the behaviour of some if seen as the behaviour of all.

doozerie wrote: »

... but as a group we also need to be more vocal in our condemnation of stupid behaviour by cyclists generally in the hope that peer pressure will cause at least some of these idiots to cop themselves on.

Even if I have problems with the idea of us being a secret club, I broadly agreed with that -- we should condemn cyclists for breaking lights etc and set and example.

doozerie

monument wrote:

I'm a cyclist, it means I cycle a bicycle. It does not mean I am responsible for others. I did not join a club. There's no secret handshake.

That's the problem. As mentioned by some of the first replies to this thread, as a minority or 'outside' group, the behaviour of some if seen as the behaviour of all.

I think you'll find that people who drive cars didn't join a club either, yet you are happy in this thread to refer to the dangerous actions and antics of a group that you call "motorists". Yet you don't want to be bundled in with the group called "cyclists". How does that work, exactly?

As for being responsible for others, no you are not responsible for the actions of others. None of us are. But you can sit back and complain about how all of us who ride bikes are tarred with the same brush due to the actions of idiots (no, it's not fair, but neither is the same accusation fair when targeted at any other group of road user either) or you can try to encourage better behaviour through what you say and by your own actions. Me, I choose the latter option in the hope that it might actually lead to a change, however small, for the better. So none of us is entirely helpless. I honestly believe that the number of people on bikes who give a toss about other road users are greatly outnumbered by those who don't, but the battle to regain respect for cyclists as a whole has to start somewhere so why not right now?

monument

doozerie wrote: »

I think you'll find that people who drive cars didn't join a club either, yet you are happy in this thread to refer to the dangerous actions and antics of a group that you call "motorists". Yet you don't want to be bundled in with the group called "cyclists". How does that work, exactly?

I never said I don't want to be called a cyclist, I'm saying what many / most cyclists / motorists do doesn't mean everybody does it.

... Also, if you want to get the law-breaking cyclists in line you normalise stopping at lights etc -- saying nobody does it does not help does not normalise it. The message is a good few cyclists do stop.

doozerie

monument wrote: »

I never said I don't want to be called a cyclist, I'm saying what many / most cyclists / motorists do doesn't mean everybody does it.

... Also, if you want to get the law-breaking cyclists in line you normalise stopping at lights etc -- saying nobody does it does not help does not normalise it. The message is a good few cyclists do stop.

I don't think anyone is disputing that there are law-abiding cyclists, just like there are law-abiding motorists. The dispute tends, as demonstrated already in this thread, to be over the proportion of law-abiding versus those that simply don't care about other road users.

For what it's worth, on my commute the vast majority of cyclists routinely do break red lights, with frequently no more than 1 or 2 of us choosing to wait for a green light. I've even had cyclists give me aggro because I impeded their progress when I stopped at a red light, or on one notable occasion a guy in the kit of a well known cycling club sneered at me and made a derisory remark as he sailed through the red light I was stopped at (I was doing a trackstand at the time, which somehow seems to bring out the sneery side of some people). I'm left with the impression that breaking red lights is considered the norm by many of these people, while stopping is seen as somehow offensive and therefore deserving of criticism or ridicule. Bizarre.

Mind you, the same faces that I see sail through many red lights daily tend to be a lot more conscientious when faced with certain (busy) junctions filled with motorised traffic. They are clearly conscious of the stupidity of weaving in front of moving traffic even while they clearly couldn't care less about the risks they themselves pose to pedestrians and other cyclists by sailing through red lights with less/no motorised traffic. Skimming past lollipop ladies, cleaving through crossing kids in the process, is another favourite of a select few cyclists on my commute too - I look forward to the day when one of them gets taken out by well aimed "Stop! Kids!" sign swung by a lollipop lady at the end of her tether. In the meantime though these idiots continue to suit themselves regardless of the consequences to others and they drag the name of the rest of us down with them, and to be honest based on the numbers I see I can't honestly argue against people when they talk about the majority of cyclists being selfish and aggressive road users.

kona

monument wrote: »

Yeah, cyclists breaking lights is more easy to see than motorists on a massive scale breaking the speed limit.

Speeding is widespread in the 30km/h zone, but also in 50km/h zones -- the electronic speed indicators show that, travelling in a car across Dublin shows that etc.




A large percentage of the articles make motorists and peds out to be saints while making out all cyclists are law breaking loons.




How is it right or ok to single out cyclists when motorists are also idiots?

If you wanna go down that route, YOUNG , MALE , DRIVERS are the most singled out group in the country.

I also said the problem is in Irish peoples attitude, nobody gives a **** because we think rules dont apply.

Cabaal

kona wrote: »

Nope, Majority of cyclists are retarded, very few stop at lights , dont seem to have a iota of cop on and are a danger to everybody else on the road in in some real darwin situations footpaths.

generalization much?

might as well also say

kona wrote: »

Nope, Majority of motorists are retarded, very few stop at lights , dont seem to have a iota of cop on and are a danger to everybody else on the road in in some real darwin situations footpaths.

kona

Cabaal wrote: »

generalization much?

might as well also say

Yea if you replace stopping at lights with not indicating/speeding/ crashing into cars in carpark and driving off/ I think youl find it hard to find somebody who is a motorist and HASNT done one or a combo of these in the last year, more than 5 times.

So yea, Were all retards, except, retard cyclists are more likely to die. they are Darwin candidates TBH.

monument

doozerie, I fixed this...

turning things on their head wrote: »

I don't think anyone is disputing that there are law-abiding motorists, just like there are law-abiding cyclists. The dispute tends, as demonstrated already in this thread, to be over the proportion of law-abiding versus those that simply don't care about other road users.

For what it's worth, on my commute the vast majority of motorists routinely do speed, and when one speeds nearly all of them do. I've even had motorists give me aggro because I impeded their progress when I kept to the speed limit, or on one notable occasion kept beeping because I was keeping to the speed limit. I'm left with the impression that speeding is considered the norm by many of these people, while keeping to the speed limit is seen as somehow offensive and therefore deserving of criticism or ridicule. Bizarre.

These idiots continue to suit themselves regardless of the consequences to others and they drag the name of the rest of motorists down with them, and to be honest based on the numbers I see I can't honestly argue against people when they talk about the majority of motorists being selfish and aggressive road users.

The idea cyclists are disproportionally bad nonsense has sunk into everybody's brains so much that most people can't see that motorists are just as bad with breaking the law. They often just do it in different ways. And just like cyclists they break the law often because they think its doing no harm, or just because they don't care.

Please, please, somebody please do try to claim that a very high percentage of motorists -- for example -- don't speed every day of the week.

doozerie

@monument, Huh?? Several people have already stated in this thread that a lot of motorists routinely break the law (i.e. do stupid and dangerous things on the road). Are those posters not foaming at the mouth enough for you, or what?

Cabaal

kona wrote: »

So yea, Were all retards, except, retard cyclists are more likely to die. they are Darwin candidates TBH.

I think you'll find pedestrians far far outway all the cyclists in the world,

Given they also do stupid things and the chance of death are high when hit by a speeding metal box should you not call them all retards also?

You'll note that the thing that is common amongst your argument is the speeding metal boxes and the retards that are steering them.

The amount of these retards that wouldn't even pass a theory tests if they sat it today is shocking, the amount that likely wouldn't pass an actual driving test is even more scary I'd imagine.

Driving a big metal box at speed comes with responsibilities and as we all see day to day alot of these people don't act responsible when operating them be it in towns, villages, citys or motorways.

pirelli

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Actually the last incident I had with some old lad in Donnybrook (where he tried to swerve his car at me) some of the abuse he leveled at me was for "being a courier", which was odd as I am simply a guy on a bike.

Although if I'm honest, I'm slightly wary about old ladies driving cars and tend to lump them all together under the "stay miles away" bracket.

There was an idiot on the mount merron tried the same ****e with me. Tried to swerve into me. I would drag him from his 4 * 4 and arrest him. They are utter lunatics.

kona

Cabaal wrote: »

I think you'll find pedestrians far far outway all the cyclists in the world,

Given they also do stupid things and the chance of death are high when hit by a speeding metal box should you not call them all retards also?

You'll note that the thing that is common amongst your argument is the speeding metal boxes and the retards that are steering them.

The amount of these retards that wouldn't even pass a theory tests if they sat it today is shocking, the amount that likely wouldn't pass an actual driving test is even more scary I'd imagine.

Driving a big metal box at speed comes with responsibilities and as we all see day to day alot of these people don't act responsible when operating them be it in towns, villages, citys or motorways.

So you get my point? That every road user is a retard if your going to apply the letter of the law?
IMO not stopping at red lights is far more dangerous than "speeding" at 50kmph down the quays, or perhaps 60kmph on a dual carrige way? or even on sections of the M50.

And thanks to Dublin bikes and the C2W , some of these retards are getting on bikes.
5 Years ago cycling wasnt as bad as it is now, its wasnt good but it certainly wasnt as bad.
Yes I do feel singled out on a bike when Im commuting, but how is the driver infront and behind to know im not the same as the 8 others who just cycled straight into oncoming traffic without a care in the world?

buffalo

monument wrote: »

Please, please, somebody please do try to claim that a very high percentage of motorists -- for example -- don't speed every day of the week.

I think doozerie's point was that it doesn't matter what motorists do, cyclists (as a generalisation) bring the criticism on themselves by constantly breaking the law. Motorists are targeted everyday with anti-speeding campaigns, tickets, fines, penalty points, random checkpoints. Cyclists have had to deal with a small sample of this over the past couple of weeks, and I've seen several posts bemoaning this fact.

monument wrote: »

The message is a few good cyclists do stop.

FYP.

ThisRegard

It looks like drivers are singled out on this board anyway, another nonsensical thread over on Commuting and Transport for those who haven't already seen it, the 'road tax' issue brought up as usual and ideas like mandatory helmet mirrors

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056065586

doozerie

Cabaal wrote:

The amount of these retards that wouldn't even pass a theory tests if they sat it today is shocking, the amount that likely wouldn't pass an actual driving test is even more scary I'd imagine.

I'd really like to believe that but I think the real problem is worse again. A lot of the dangerous behaviour that I see drivers commit is, I believe, not because they aren't able to control their cars but simply because they don't care to. Many of these people would pass a driving test I believe, as they simply have to behave for the relatively short few minutes that the test takes, but once they feel that no-one is looking over their shoulder they'll just revert straight back to pushing their weight around on the road again. One example of that is how driver behaviour invariably improves when there is a visible Garda presence on the road.

So I think the challenge isn't so much to educate people (any road users, that is) as to what they should do on the road (the majority of the laws are pretty simple, so understanding them is possible even by those people determined to be stupid), the challenge is to convince people that adhering to the rules is the safest option for everyone including themselves. It's still a form of education, but a far more difficult one to achieve I think.

monument

doozerie wrote: »

@monument, Huh?? Several people have already stated in this thread that a lot of motorists routinely break the law (i.e. do stupid and dangerous things on the road). Are those posters not foaming at the mouth enough for you, or what?

I don't want anybody foaming at the mouth.

There still seems to be the view here that cyclists break the law disproportionally more than motorists or peds -- that's what I have the problem with.

buffalo wrote: »

I think doozerie's point was that it doesn't matter what motorists do, cyclists (as a generalisation) bring the criticism on themselves by constantly breaking the law. Motorists are targeted everyday with anti-speeding campaigns, tickets, fines, penalty points, random checkpoints. Cyclists have had to deal with a small sample of this over the past couple of weeks, and I've seen several posts bemoaning this fact.

It does matter what motorists do if people (cyclists and motorists etc) hold the incorrect view that cyclists break the law more than others.

And so what if motorists are targeted if speeding etc is widespread every day of the week.

kona wrote: »

IMO not stopping at red lights is far more dangerous than "speeding" at 50kmph down the quays, or perhaps 60kmph on a dual carrige way? or even on sections of the M50.

So, is that what it's coming down to? Breaking the law is ok or better when somebody thinks it is?

doozerie

monument wrote:

There still seems to be the view here that cyclists break the law disproportionally more than motorists or peds -- that's what I have the problem with.

I'm not sure it is possible to produce hard facts to either support or contest the view that cyclists break the law more than motorists or pedestrians. As the laws are so rarely applied to cyclists and pedestrians I would think that any official Garda statistics would suggest that there is very little law breaking (of the rules of the road) on the part of cyclists, or pedestrians for that matter, but that does not reflect the reality. Their stats probably vastly underestimate the breaking of laws by motorists too of course. Accident statistics don't help either as they too are certainly not representative.

What we are left with is anecdotal evidence, which tends to lead to much more heated debate and less meaningful discussion as a result. My anecdotal evidence for this morning's commute by bike, for example, suggests that about 80% of cyclists broke the laws, about 30% of drivers did, and about 10% of pedestrians did. But clearly that is just a rough guess of the figures by one person on one route for one morning - a morning where there seemed to be fewer cyclists, cars, and pedestrians for some reason, and on a more typical morning I'd expect to add about 10% to each of those numbers. But my commute has only one very lightly used roundabout, for example, and driver behaviour on roundabouts is consistently appalling in my experience. Also, my commute is into Dublin city centre so invariably the route is congested and therefore cars don't have as much opportunity to speed even if they wanted to.

By comparison, when I drive, and particularly when I get on to less built-up roads around and outside Dublin, I find myself among a minority of maybe 10% of cars that obey the speed limits, while I rarely see any cyclists at all. Throw night time into the mix and the figures jump around again. It would take a better person than me to make any sensible comparison between different groups of road users based on those perceived figures. For my part it just suggests to me that many, and probably the majority, of all road user groups are populated with ignorant people that don't care enough about others on the road to be willing to adhere to the rules of the road in order to minimse the risks to everyone.

kona

monument wrote: »

So, is that what it's coming down to? Breaking the law is ok or better when somebody thinks it is?

Good god open your eyes for **** sake! Thats what IMO I think the problem is with cyclists and motorists. Nobody gives a ****e, country is full of corrupts bastards and one-up-manship and que skipping and every other various forms of "cute whorism" that has evolved from the fact that 80% of Irish people dont have the bollix to stand up to it.

Yes cyclists are singled out and rightly so, but everybody else gets singled out too. But does it make a difference no, because nobody gives a ****.

Prime example:

Threads here about people bemoaning getting caught cycling on footpaths/ no lights/ breaking red lights....They KNOW its illegal, but feel hard done by that they have been caught.
Why? Because they feel they should be entitled to a bit of law breaking as long as you wont get a custodial sentance. ****ing children TBH.

tomasrojo

kona wrote: »

Yes cyclists are singled out and rightly so, but everybody else gets singled out too.

I'm not being sarcastic, but from an etymological point of view I don't think everyone can be singled out.

kona

tomasrojo wrote: »

I'm not being sarcastic, but from an etymological point of view I don't think everyone can be singled out.

true,

Maybe Everybody feels like they are being singled out.

doozerie

kona wrote:

Maybe Everybody feels like they are being singled out.

I think so. I've lost count of the number of times I've heard otherwise reasonable people complain about: speed cameras, as if the actual crime were being fined for speeding rather than the fact they they knowingly broke the speed limit; speed limits that hinder their progress, even while they complain about the excessive speed of cars that pass outside their house; car parking that impedes their progress even while they park on a double-yellow line on a narrow road while they "just nip into the shop to get something"; etc. etc. In short, they believe that everyone else should adhere to the rules, but not themselves. And the very same mindset is applied by idiotic cyclists and idiotic pedestrians, and typically they'll try to justify their stupid actions with some nonsense excuse about how their world would cave in on them if they are prevented from breaking the red light, cycling/driving on the footpath, etc.

I notice that this morning there were calls on RTE Radio for young male drivers to drive carefully this weekend. You could even say that this group of motorists was singled out! It was mentioned again that they are the age category that are involved in most serious accidents. I suspect that this reminder of this age category being the high risk one results in even greater complacency in all other drivers who see themselves as being outside of this category and therefore inherently safer drivers. The same kind of complacency seems to exist in the minds of many cyclists who see motorists as the only source of danger on the roads and therefore as a cyclist they can do whatever they like as they perceive the risk to be negligible by comparison. That comfortable world of self-delusion of theirs doesn't respond well to being reminded of the real world.

superrdave

doozerie wrote: »

I think so. I've lost count of the number of times I've heard otherwise reasonable people complain about: speed cameras, as if the actual crime were being fined for speeding rather than the fact they they knowingly broke the speed limit; speed limits that hinder their progress, even while they complain about the excessive speed of cars that pass outside their house; car parking that impedes their progress even while they park on a double-yellow line on a narrow road while they "just nip into the shop to get something"; etc. etc. In short, they believe that everyone else should adhere to the rules, but not themselves. And the very same mindset is applied by idiotic cyclists and idiotic pedestrians, and typically they'll try to justify their stupid actions with some nonsense excuse about how their world would cave in on them if they are prevented from breaking the red light, cycling/driving on the footpath, etc.

I notice that this morning there were calls on RTE Radio for young male drivers to drive carefully this weekend. You could even say that this group of motorists was singled out! It was mentioned again that they are the age category that are involved in most serious accidents. I suspect that this reminder of this age category being the high risk one results in even greater complacency in all other drivers who see themselves as being outside of this category and therefore inherently safer drivers. The same kind of complacency seems to exist in the minds of many cyclists who see motorists as the only source of danger on the roads and therefore as a cyclist they can do whatever they like as they perceive the risk to be negligible by comparison. That comfortable world of self-delusion of theirs doesn't respond well to being reminded of the real world.

I take it then, you would be opposed to the school of thought that says cyclists should treat red lights like stop signs? I personally don't see anything wrong with that. The issue is careless cycling, not illegal cycling, which while frequently correlating are not actually the same thing.

doozerie

superrdave wrote:

I take it then, you would be opposed to the school of thought that says cyclists should treat red lights like stop signs?

Yes, I would be opposed to it. For the same reason that I would be opposed to motorists being able to use a red light like a stop sign, which is that people have an exaggerated sense of their own ability to see other road users and particularly when people are in a hurry they seem even less capable of seeing a potential obstruction (i.e. another road user) that could delay them. Red = stop is a very simple rule which leaves less opportunity for people to be stupid/careless/dangerous when they adhere to it, but it loses a lot of its value once people start to ignore it.