do this in memory of me (IMMOM)

FoxT

My wife & I were both raised Catholic. She practises, I do not.At this stage my personal position is I have no religion, & while the church has been evil,
basic Catholic teaching ( love your neighbour etc) is beneficial to children, provided always that it is followed up in the home.
In Ireland, options for alternative education where Schools have a moral curriculum that is not aligned to any religious flavour are not available to all practical intents & purposes.
- So, all our kids have gone to Catholic schools.

Given all this , my wife & I agreed that
- Weekly Mass is compulsory for our kids up to age 18
- I do not have to go, but I will go on special occasions (ie Christmas day)
- My wife takes the kids to mass weekly, if she cannot ( illness etc) then I will.
- Our kids are now 19, 17, 8. The 19 yo is now exercising his freedom to not go to mass , & good luck to him.

FIRST COMMUNION
- For the 19 & 17 yo, we basically did not get too involved on the religious side ( other than homework etc which we always did with them )
- Turned up on the day, nice family celebration , nobody takes it too seriously.

THIS TIME
- 9 years later, things have progressed! ( but in an appalling direction)
- We ( missus & me) are invited to local National School to have a kind of first communion kickoff meeting.

4 teachers, about 100 parents, and a priest turn up.

Priest gives a lecture on transubstantiation. Quite insistent that we take this on board as the mission critical part of the 1st communion programme.

Then, we get divided up into groups. Each group ( of about 10 people) nominates a spokesperson & we have to come up with answers to thre questions:

- How to prepare your child 'spiritually' for 1st communion
- How to ensure child understands tranubstantiation & how special it is
- How to maintain spiritual guidance as child gets older

Throughout this, I had a growing sense of anger. Fury. I said nothing throughout the session. It was a blatant brainwash attempt on all the parents present. The church could give a positive & humane message along the lines of
- Celebrate the joy of your child growing beyond infancy
- Think about the years of puberty as they approach
- what are the best parenting strategies to celebrate your child's growth & provide ongoing support as they grow through some momentous changes in the coming years.

Instead, it was all focused on Catholic transubstantiation spiritual dogma BULL****. I am still angry, still amazed that after all the ****ups they have made the church is still trying harder than ever to brainwash people.

I am writing this partly to let off steam, partly I suppose to see am I a reactionary loony or have others had a similar experience?


- FoxT

Nevyn

1st communion is all about the child receiving the host after it as under gone the rite of transubstantiation. The preparation is to ready the child for this, it is not a rite of passage or a coming of age ceremony. It has nothing to do with parenting your child through puberty, if you think parenting classes for 7 to 15 year olds would benefit you and your family then seek them out the church does not provide them.

Instruction for first communion is just that, going through all the many rites which make up the mass, and what they mean focusing on the rite of transubstantiation.

Was the evening run just buy the parish priest or was it run by the parish team?

FoxT

You are absolutely correct. Holy Communion is about Transubstantiation. Thank you.



The point I am trying to make is that the church is as focused on dogma today as it was when it persecuted Kepler. I found the whole experience dehumanising.

The church is lame on issues like bullying, celebrating human growth & development, celebrating childhood, parenthood, and all the joys that these can bring. But BY GOD they will bring us all in for a browbeatfest on transubstantiation.

I struggle with this because I have no viable options ( no local school option, trying to balance my wife's beliefs with my own, not wanting my child to feel 'left out' at a vulnerable age, etc etc) .

I am angry at the whole tone of this meeting. As it happened, 80% of our group talk time was spent listening to a lady talking about her parking ticket history. This was entertaining, but a waste of time. I am sure I was not alone in feeling alienated by the whole thing.

Regards,

- FoxT

up for anything

FoxT wrote: »

At this stage my personal position is I have no religion, & while the church has been evil,
basic Catholic teaching ( love your neighbour etc) is beneficial to children, provided always that it is followed up in the home.
In Ireland, options for alternative education where Schools have a moral curriculum that is not aligned to any religious flavour are not available to all practical intents & purposes.
- So, all our kids have gone to Catholic schools.

That was my position when my kids started school and they were going to an Educate Together school (there are rather more ET schools now then there used to be when my first child started out so you obviously don't live near one but they are there) so I paid for the dubious privilege of RC education outside of the school curriculum. I'm sorry I ever did because as the years have gone on it doesn't sit easy with me. I don't follow it up in the home.

In fact when they comment, usually disparagingly on the their religious education, during the rushed last minute homework, I find it very difficult to toe the party line by saying things I don't believe and usually saying them without any great conviction. I think I am doing them more harm then good by carrying on with it and know that I have a decision to make in the near future.

Having said all this, my advice would be to completely dissociate yourself from their formal religious education, just turning up at the church to celebrate the various sacraments showing support for them and your wife. There are a large number of couples who do this in our school. It really is a personal decision but you will find it very difficult being in full time involvement with it when every fibre of your being is saying poppycock, bullshit and sitting quietly when you want to speak out. It's either follow the rules or opt out. You cannot pick and choose and try to change the way the church does something just because it doesn't gel with your beliefs as to what they should be doing rather than what they are doing.

I hope some of this makes sense to you.

PopUp

I think the reason they are doing this is twofold:

Firstly as more and more people are opting out and removing their children from religious instruction and not attending mass, they are 'battening down the hatches' so to speak. Some priests and parishes react to falling numbers at mass by trying to reach out to everybody - others decide that they will never be liberal enough and just basically say sod it. They will cater to the hardcore remnants of the parish, rather than futile-y keep reaching out to people who have long since switched off.

Secondly, they aren't interested in emphasising the first communion as a social and cultural rite of passage because as far as they are concerned, that element gets too much attention already. From their perspective why should they bother telling the parents what an important day it is to the family personally. They see the expensive outfits and fancy meals out and extravagant gifts - from the priest's perspective the cultural element is dwarfing the religious element. So why should he play up the secular benefits to you? Sure everybody knows them. Nobody pays enough attention (he thinks) to the theological implications - which from his point of view are far more important.

(I'm not Catholic btw, this is just me trying to put myself in their shoes).

silverharp

the dissonance would drive me nuts. As a parent I couldnt sign my kids up to a philosophy that makes no sense to me. In one way its not fair to the kids as they will have to deal with the dissonance as some stage, ie their dad thinks its all a nonsense and in the other ear they will be hearing all about heaven and hell.

there have been a few threads like this before, one where a parent was annoyed that the local church was making contact with the kids, I think I responded by saying " you signed up to the club and now you are complaining that they are contacting the members" . Seems similar here, I cant take OP's problem seriously. Since when was the RC church a humanitarian and independent imparter of moral values? Thats the parents job!

di11on

When in Ireland are we going to understand that Roman Catholicism is a religion, a set of religious beliefs? It's not a club you join because you're Irish or because you want your kids to go to the local school or because you don't want them to be left out.

Would you have preferred if the priest turned up and said something along these lines:

"Hi folks. Your children are making their first holy communion. I wouldn't take it all too seriously folks. Get all dressed up, nice day out, little but of money for the children. Enjoy the day folks. Sure, you wouldn't want them left out after all, would you?"

Nevyn

FoxT wrote: »

The point I am trying to make is that the church is as focused on dogma today as it was when it persecuted Kepler. I found the whole experience dehumanising.

Well in the eyes of the RCC ye are all god's children and soldiers of christ
and with how the RCC having been under atack and with som any fair weather catholic who don't know what transubstantiation is it is a concern for them. Esp as it is the the main dogma which separates the RCC from the Anglican Church.

And I have found the vast majority of irish people who are down as Roman Catholics when you talk to them about Transubstantiation vs Consubstantiation, they don't adhere to the dogma of transubstantiation at all and in their opinions on divorce, contraception, priests being married ect are essentially more suited to the Anglican Church, who do tend to take a more holistic to families and faith.

FoxT wrote: »

The church is lame on issues like bullying, celebrating human growth & development, celebrating childhood, parenthood, and all the joys that these can bring. But BY GOD they will bring us all in for a browbeatfest on transubstantiation.

The RCC is not about social ills it is about indoctrination, dogma and souls.
There is a big fear that with more and more people looking at what the church stands for and their own morals and ethics they are fed up being ala carte catholics and would prefer to be in a christian church which reflects their world views, and the RCC will loose numbers, money and power.

FoxT wrote: »

I struggle with this because I have no viable options ( no local school option, trying to balance my wife's beliefs with my own, not wanting my child to feel 'left out' at a vulnerable age, etc etc) .

My children have attended the local RC primary school, while ideally a ET would have been my preference it wasnt' such a big deal to have them opted out and nor did they feel left out, they were happy and confident knowing they have a choice and yes it take more work as a parent to make sure they don't feel left out but it can be done and parents have done it for years.

As for your personal struggle with your relationship with your faith, god and church, I would suggest figuring out what you do believe and if you wish to be in a religious community that reflects that then go looking for it.
Oranges are not the only fruit and RCC is not the only religion there is.

FoxT wrote: »

I am angry at the whole tone of this meeting. As it happened, 80% of our group talk time was spent listening to a lady talking about her parking ticket history. This was entertaining, but a waste of time. I am sure I was not alone in feeling alienated by the whole thing.

Your local parish will have a parish team and a prep for communion team,
that would be the ladies who helped run the evening you went to.
I would suggest you find out who they are and go talk to them.

Beruthiel

FoxT wrote: »

Instead, it was all focused on Catholic transubstantiation spiritual dogma BULL****. I am still angry, still amazed that after all the ****ups they have made the church is still trying harder than ever to brainwash people.

You're angry because you don't believe in all the trappings of this religion.
It sticks in your craw to have to sit there and go through with the b/s.
You signed your child up for this religion, maybe it's time to really look at why you are doing that? They may not thank you for it. I certainly don't thank mine.

You cannot put the blame on the catholic church for how it goes about teaching it's religion if you've actually gone and signed your child up for it.

Have you discussed it with your wife?
Enough has changed over the last few years for her to perhaps think twice about the decision ye have made. IMO the catholic church is in a shambles. Hopefully it will be next to gone in a few more generations.

FoxT

I was angry on the night b/c I was led to believe that the meeting was about the logistics of the event, but instead found it had been hijacked in an attempt to get all the parents 'on-side' on the TS issue.

It is difficult to strike a working balance between my wife's beliefs & my own, and what we should pass on to our children. Our modus Operandi described above is a bit mullocky at times but works well 99% of the time.

Thanks for all your replies,

- FoxT

Cat Melodeon

FoxT wrote: »

I was angry on the night b/c I was led to believe that the meeting was about the logistics of the event, but instead found it had been hijacked in an attempt to get all the parents 'on-side' on the TS issue.

It was probably less about getting you 'on-side' and more about making the assumption that if you are there preparing your child for Holy Communion, you are a practicing Catholic and so are aware of what the sacrament is actually about and will take advise on how to explain it to your child.

All religion is based on beliefs and doctrines (ie dogma). As a member of a church you are expected to uphold those beliefs. Preparation for a sacrament is taken very seriously, it is not 'an event' for which logistical arrangements need to be made, it is a holy rite in which God is active. If you don't believe in that, you can still be involved in your child's spiritual development, but if you don't believe to the extent that the mere existence of those beliefs and celebration of sacraments is making you angry, maybe it's time to pass this particular responsibility over to your wife.

lynski

BTW you do know that now your child can't get out, even when they turn 18, the RCC has us all for life now.

FoxT

That is another hallucination on the part of the church. They may think I am a catholic but they are not qualified to make that call. I know who I am.
- FoxT

Nevyn

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

All religion is based on beliefs and doctrines (ie dogma).

Nope there are some which are orthopraxis rather then orthodox

m'lady

lynski wrote: »

BTW you do know that now your child can't get out, even when they turn 18, the RCC has us all for life now.

As far as I am aware you can excommunicate yourself, spoke about it recently with friends, you write into your parish priest etc, then you are 'struck off their list' so to speak.
There is a website dedicated to it, 2 Irish guys set it up to make people aware that this can be done and its seemingly legit.

Nevyn

m'lady wrote: »

As far as I am aware you can excommunicate yourself, spoke about it recently with friends, you write into your parish priest etc, then you are 'struck off their list' so to speak.
There is a website dedicated to it, 2 Irish guys set it up to make people aware that this can be done and its seemingly legit.

That was applying to defect and the site was countmeout.ie but the RCC has changed their cannon law and it's not possible to do that any more.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056058674

Fittle

FoxT wrote: »

I was angry on the night b/c I was led to believe that the meeting was about the logistics of the event..... - FoxT

Your child goes to a catholic school and is going to receive their first holy communion in May...what logistics did you think were involved in the 'event'? He/she turns up and sticks out his/her tongue:)

CrazyRabbit

Side note: Can't believe your children are being forced to go to mass until they are 18. Forcing religion on them will only make them more likely to distance themselves from the church as adults.

Religion should be a choice.

di11on

FoxT wrote: »

I was angry on the night b/c I was led to believe that the meeting was about the logistics of the event, but instead found it had been hijacked in an attempt to get all the parents 'on-side' on the TS issue.

It is difficult to strike a working balance between my wife's beliefs & my own, and what we should pass on to our children. Our modus Operandi described above is a bit mullocky at times but works well 99% of the time.

Thanks for all your replies,

- FoxT

This is just a thought here, to which I don't have the answer because it's an issue in our household too... but when it comes to beliefs, what is a "working balance"? When you believe something, and someone believes something contrary, by definition, you have to believe the other person is wrong.

You know, I think the best thing we can do for our children is teach them the art of weighing things up for themselves and making their own call on what to believe. Not because they're Irish and not because their parents believe it, but having looked at all aspects of it for themselves, they have come to their own understanding.

That's the kind of belief that will stick and is meaningful. The other kind of belief isn't a belief at all.

FoxT

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Side note: Can't believe your children are being forced to go to mass until they are 18. Forcing religion on them will only make them more likely to distance themselves from the church as adults.

Religion should be a choice.

This is a joint decision that my wife & I made about how we would raise our children. It has pluses & minuses, but it works for us. Others in similar situations will I am sure have taken different approaches, and there may be better solutions than the one we have adopted.

I can't comment on whether 'forcing religion on them' will turn them away from the church or not - I have no idea. And if it does, is that a bad thing?

when it comes to beliefs, what is a "working balance"? .

What is a 'working balance' - I guess for us, it is a balance that my wife & I feel we can both agree to & support, and which is also best for our children.

When you believe something, and someone believes something contrary, by definition, you have to believe the other person is wrong

I look at this very differently. I don't think my wife is wrong because she is a Catholic, it is simply part of who she is, and I respect that. She respects my position also.

By & large, I am happy with the arrangement, but occasionally things happen that stick in my craw a bit. On the other side of the coin, I know my wife is a bit disappointed that our 19 yo doesn't go to church anymore, but she does accept it, and it is not a source of friction.

So, no concrete answers in the FoxT household, but we have tried to work out the best solution we can to an issue that is a bit thorny at times.

- FoxT

username123

OP - whether or not you can see it your opening post smacks of hypocrisy. The children are forced to go to mass til age 18, but you yourself do not have' to go. Why? I knew I was athiest at age 14 - why would you be forcing them to go to something like this instead of allowing them to make up their own minds. Plus - they see you not going - so they know that helfire does not rain down upon those who dont go.

You say your 19 year old now exercises his 'right' not to go? Id lay money the rest of your children follow suit. Religion being forced in a hypocritical manner does not make for religious people - it makes for resentment.

And now youre angry re first communion prep - as other posters have said, I cant take this seriously - you signed your children up for membership of this organisation - so now youve got to take the consequences of that membership.

The whole thing is ridiculuous - forcing teenagers to go to mass in this day and age, complaining about the churchs behaviour re communion that you yourself have signed the child up for, and then to say that perhaps itd be better if they turned away from the religion that you allowed them to be indoctrinated in in the first place!!!

Why have the children not been allowed to make their own call on religion?

Nevyn

Esp considering that when children make thier confirmation they are confirmed as adults in the church and that state of thier soul is between them, god and thier confessor, so they have the right to not attend mass at that stage.

username123

Religion aside - I never feel it is a good idea to use the 'you are allowed when you are 18' clause with teenagers. Coming of age is surely healthier when its a gradual process and not a sudden change from being a child one day to a adult the next based on a calendar date? It says a lot more about how much someone respects their children when they allow them to grow a little themselves and find their own boundaries (with guidance) and exercise their own common sense as they go. I think you end up with a far more sensible adult if you allow them freedom gradually than if you have a strict childhood cut off point of 18 years of age exactly.

FoxT

thanks

- FoxT

Sleepy

Leave any future 'logistics' meetings to the other half and make it clear that, since you consider the religion to be nonsense, your participation will be limited to turning up on the day?

Hellrazer

I have to comment on this post by Beruthiel as it may aswell have been aimed at me and what Im going through with the whole RCC thing at the minute and this whole IMOM thing has brought a lot of it to light especially with these set masses that the kids HAVE to attend.

Beruthiel wrote: »

You're angry because you don't believe in all the trappings of this religion.

Thats my problem aswell.My son is going through the whole IMOM aswell but to be totally honset I find it all b/s.It seems that these set masses so to speak are designed to make as many parents/children attend on the set days.

It sticks in your craw to have to sit there and go through with the b/s.

100% agreed.

You signed your child up for this religion, maybe it's time to really look at why you are doing that?

Ive been discussing this with my wife over the weekend and honestly I think the reason we signed up to this was for the better schools.Back in the time of their baptism there were no options but RCC schools.

They may not thank you for it. I certainly don't thank mine.

Me either.I would have loved the option to opt out or in as I feel like.

You cannot put the blame on the catholic church for how it goes about teaching it's religion if you've actually gone and signed your child up for it.

Agreed and I wish I hadnt signed all mine up for it.

Have you discussed it with your wife?

Shes slightly more religious than me but were in agreement that its b/s.

Enough has changed over the last few years for her to perhaps think twice about the decision ye have made. IMO the catholic church is in a shambles. Hopefully it will be next to gone in a few more generations.

Cant see it happening until they modernise their whole ethos.

Nevyn

Well ideally catholic children should be at mass every week with their parents.
That is what adherence to the religion calls for and with mass attendance being down so is the money raised by the collections, which goes to the up keep of the church.
So it makes sense they are trying to push a return to mass attendants for all those who
which to have their children undergo sacraments.

Hellrazer

Thaedydal wrote: »

Well ideally catholic children should be at mass every week with their parents.
That is what adherence to the religion calls for and with mass attendance being down so is the money raised by the collections, which goes to the up keep of the church.
So it makes sense they are trying to push a return to mass attendants for all those who
which to have their children undergo sacraments.

Understand completely.Its just that religon was literally beaten into us in school growing up hence my fondness for everything RCC.

I really thought that things had changed but in reality it hasnt.Nowadays theyre not beating it into you but its a more subtle form of compulsion to take part.

Its like yesterday our young lad HAD to go to hand in his enrolment form.He HAD to wear his uniform and he HAD to go up for eucharist with his hands crossed against his body.I dont remember any of that when my eldest got her First Communion which was only 5 years ago.And theres something like 10 more of these obligatory masses to go to for first communion.
The impression I get is that if you dont take part its frowned on.

It nearly killed me going into that church yesterday to listen to something that I really have no interest in.

cbyrd

I know i'll probably take a roasting for this,

i have communion and confirmation this year (yay) and so far we had the 2 enrolment masses, which we attended we have the first confessions in feb and some other church related thing for the confirmation in january.
Our system is mostly based on laziness, we baptised them brought them for all the meetings and masses that we have to and then christmas and easter funerals and weddings.
My faith is not based on what one man has to say off the altar on a sunday, be it berating people for not going to mass (why they say this to people who are there is beyond me) or saying we're not praying hard enough.
The general concensus in our house is this: we believe in god, we teach our kids to be kind to think of others so on so forth, but, here it is, I will not force them to go to mass every sunday.

I was sitting at mass yesterday for the 2nd sunday in a row, watching the priest (young) who has a thing about insense everywhere 5 or 6 times through mass, choking me, reeming off the saints names and about 40 popes and i'm looking at the kids for confirmation, bored, every one of them, looking around giggling at each other and trying to catch each others eyes.

I'm not fooling myself that either of my kids will go to mass as grown ups but i have baptised them with the intention that if they chose to do so it's there for them.

The most beautiful thing about the mass yesterday was the choir, it brought a tear to my eye at one stage thinking about my dad who's sick.

The priest got on my nerves, i bet he's never had to worry about having to pay a bill and kids being sick or any of this stuff and that is what has disillusioned me with the church, they have no empathy. it's they're way or the highway. They think women as 2nd class citzens and while i don't want to be there, it doesn't mean my kids won't want, in time, to go every sunday.


So there it is i'm a lazy catholic, sunday is my only day off and getting up and rushing to church to be told how bad i am is not top of my list. But i will do all the pre baptism communion confirmation things, and i will always rely on the idea that there's someone up there looking after me and mine




bring on the bashing :eek::D

Sleepy

cbyrd, you're an absolutely typical Irish Catholic: one who's believes are closer to an Anglican or Protestant faith but who for cultural reasons has been raised "catholic".

To be fair, I'd consider most A la carte Catholics to be better people than their pious counterparts though. The stuff they reject tends to be the more bigoted or questionable elements of the faith.

metrovelvet

I'd be the Catholic counterpart to a reformed Jew and being from NY probably might as well be Jewish too by osmosis. Being from a protestant nation, a little anglo.

I bought the mix and match set.