Socket in attic?

Fredrick

I need a power outlet in my attic so i bought a double socket with back box. After knocking off the lecky at the fusebox i went looking for a mains cable to splice into. I found one, cut it and wired it into the socket and its working fine. Only thing after, i discovered that its the shower mains cable. After some looking into it i see that your not meant to put anything on the shower ring so i’m not gonna use this. My query is can i leave the socket connected, it will not be used and i will tape it up, or do i need to remove it as its dangerous?

handydandy

For future reference try and get some professional advice first, I know it probably sounded simple to do. I would rejoin them in a proper joint box, I wouldn't leave it in the socket and make sure you mark the box as to what it is.

Do you know what size cable it was out of interest, is your shower a pumped (using hot water from the cylinder) or power shower which heats water on contact.

Fredrick

handydandy wrote: »

Do you know what size cable it was out of interest, is your shower a pumped (using hot water from the cylinder) or power shower which heats water on contact.

Will do , its a power shower and the cable is a good bit thicker than the normal mains cable.

handydandy

Make sure the new joint is nice and secure, you don't want this cable to be loose in any way.

Fredrick

handydandy wrote: »

Make sure the new joint is nice and secure, you don't want this cable to be loose in any way.

Ta for the advice.

Bruthal

You might not find any socket circuit wiring in the attic, and judging by what you have done its an electrician only job in this case, as it should be in any job like this. Now you will have to re-join the shower cable and even this probably seemingly simple job should be done by a sparks now, as its vital its done properly.

maxamillius

i agree seek professional help,i know money is tight for people these days and diy is becoming more popular but dont under estimate the work us sparks do,as said above its vital these things are done right,electricity is not to be messed with as it can kill!not havin a go or anything i just dont think costs should be cut when it comes to this,adding an extra socket wont break the bank at all!
hope ya get it sorted mate!

DublinDilbert

robbie7730 wrote: »

Now you will have to re-join the shower cable and even this probably seemingly simple job should be done by a sparks now, as its vital its done properly.

+1

Please get an electrican to join or replace the cable going to the shower. This is the most heavily loaded electrical cable in the house, if not done correctly will cause a problem.

I think people have a mental block against using "trades" people in Ireland. I think there's some sort of hang up form the boom period, where all trades were meant to have charged/made a fortune. From my experience the electrical trade didn't make a massive fortune from the boom and are quite reasonable when it comes to pricing jobs. BTW I'm no an electrician before anyone suggests some sort of bias.

M cebee

DublinDilbert wrote: »

+1

Please get an electrican to join or replace the cable going to the shower. This is the most heavily loaded electrical cable in the house, if not done correctly will cause a problem.

I think people have a mental block against using "trades" people in Ireland. I think there's some sort of hang up form the boom period, where all trades were meant to have charged/made a fortune. From my experience the electrical trade didn't make a massive fortune from the boom and are quite reasonable when it comes to pricing jobs. BTW I'm no an electrician before anyone suggests some sort of bias.

that's for sure
pricing work was competitive all the time-even during the boom

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

that's for sure
pricing work was competitive all the time-even during the boom

What connectors would you use on that as a matter of interest. Its the one area i dont think we have a great selection, as in very good connectors. A second (cooker) isolator might be as good as anything else, them big block connectors used in meter cabinets would make a great connection with 3 blocks inside a housing maybe, crimp on ferules and heat shrink, ferules and scotch cast, Or best of all a new cable.

maxamillius

it really should be replaced,but if needs must i dont see why a cooker isolator would not work as its rated for 45 amps anyway!

Bruthal

maxamillius wrote: »

it really should be replaced,but if needs must i dont see why a cooker isolator would not work as its rated for 45 amps anyway!

There are probably a few good enough ways of doing it, just curious what others would do, Cooker isolator is a good and practical way alright, once it can be mounted up off the attic floor. Or scotch cast with ferules.

zuroph

handydandy wrote: »

For future reference try and get some professional advice first, I know it probably sounded simple to do. I would rejoin them in a proper joint box, I wouldn't leave it in the socket and make sure you mark the box as to what it is.

Do you know what size cable it was out of interest, is your shower a pumped (using hot water from the cylinder) or power shower which heats water on contact.

Fredrick wrote: »

Will do , its a power shower and the cable is a good bit thicker than the normal mains cable.

Just to be pedantic;
A "power shower" is a shower that increases the pressure of water, either using an intergral or external pump. It uses the hot water from the cyclinder.

An "electric shower" heats the water, and needs the larger cable.

In my time working in bathroom stores, too many people asked for the wrong thing.

Bruthal

zuroph wrote: »

Just to be pedantic;
A "power shower" is a shower that increases the pressure of water, either using an intergral or external pump. It uses the hot water from the cyclinder.

An "electric shower" heats the water, and needs the larger cable.

In my time working in bathroom stores, too many people asked for the wrong thing.

Most electric instant showers used now have a pump to increase the water flow from it, so you can see there is a good cause for confusion.
People asking for the wrong shower is very vague. Thats like saying they come in asking for a shower so they are given the first shower on the shelf, are they not asked a few questions about the setup required? If they cant answer these questions then it would not be possible to definitively give them the correct shower, except if they knew the exact right one by its name alone?

zuroph

robbie7730 wrote: »

Most electric instant showers used now have a pump to increase the water flow from it, so you can see there is a good cause for confusion.

no they don't, this is another source of confusion.

A pumped electric shower is not increasing the flow out of the shower. It is pulling the water into the shower as the pressure is not high enough to provide enough time for the water to heat.

A mains electric shower takes the water from the mains, which would have about 1 bar of pressure.
a pumped electric takes the water from the attic, and pulls in the water to give the shower more time to heat it. the hotter you turn the shower, the slower the water passes through, as it needs to sit on the element longer to heat more.
a good power shower will hit you with 14 litres a minute or so. The average electric shower is 7 litres a minute optimal, meaning it will be much less if you turn the heat up, for example, in the winter when the water entering is much colder.

The pump misconception is something the manufacturers are slow to correct people on, as people thinking they get a more powerful shower from a pumped electric is good business for them.

every new build should be using an integral lagged system, with power showers.

robbie7730 wrote: »

People asking for the wrong shower is very vague. Thats like saying they come in asking for a shower so they are given the first shower on the shelf, are they not asked a few questions about the setup required? If they cant answer these questions then it would not be possible to definitively give them the correct shower, except if they knew the exact right one by its name alone?

ah of course, the standard is "Do you want it to heat the water? Does the water come from the attic or the mains?" but some people used to come in unprepared for these questions, saying they were just told to get a power shower. I used to always take time to explain the different systems to them and let them make their mind up about what they actually wanted, instead of just being told by the plumber which system they were getting.

Bruthal

zuroph wrote: »

no they don't, this is another source of confusion.

A pumped electric shower is not increasing the flow out of the shower. It is pulling the water into the shower as the pressure is not high enough to provide enough time for the water to heat.

A mains electric shower takes the water from the mains, which would have about 1 bar of pressure.
a pumped electric takes the water from the attic, and pulls in the water to give the shower more time to heat it. the hotter you turn the shower, the slower the water passes through, as it needs to sit on the element longer to heat more.
a good power shower will hit you with 14 litres a minute or so. The average electric shower is 7 litres a minute optimal, meaning it will be much less if you turn the heat up, for example, in the winter when the water entering is much colder.

The pump misconception is something the manufacturers are slow to correct people on, as people thinking they get a more powerful shower from a pumped electric is good business for them.

every new build should be using an integral lagged system, with power showers.

Im sorry to say this but your description is seriously flawed.
A tank fed electric shower with pump not on will have too low a flow of water and the water would boil in the tank or cut out the overheat stat. Now the pump vastly increases the flow of water out of the shower and the temperature is then regulated by the flow dial to increase flow/decrease temp, or decrease flow/increase temp.

You say the pump gives enough flow to allow the water time to heat? You have it backwards, without the pump the water would get too hot too quick. This is very simple basic stuff for anyone with knowledge in this area.

Bruthal

zuroph wrote: »

A pumped electric shower is not increasing the flow out of the shower. It is pulling the water into the shower as the pressure is not high enough to provide enough time for the water to heat.

You seriously believe this? I have to say im shocked by that statement. You are saying the pump in an electric shower does not increase the flow out of it, so why have the pump if the flow is not increased by the pump.

We know a power shower as they are called has a lot higher flow than an instant shower, but we are not talking about power shower versus instant shower, but to say the pump in an instant shower does not increase its flow and therefore the pressure at the shower head is complete nonsense.

And to say people are being led to believe they are getting more power from a pumped electric shower is in reference to what?
A few years ago lots of showers were off the mains, but the pumped electric is better than the mains fed electric.

Your statement -A pumped electric shower is not increasing the flow out of the shower. It is pulling the water into the shower as the pressure is not high enough to provide enough time for the water to heat - makes no technical sense at all.

Its no wonder people were going home with the wrong shower type if this is the type of information you were giving to them.

zuroph

maybe im not being clear. A pumped electric shower offers no more flow than a mains electric shower, which is still a much more limited flow than a power shower, as the flow is deliberately limited to allow time to heat.
I reread what I wrote and should have been clearer on that point. a pumped electric shower is not giving you a power shower, it merely increases the flow to an acceptable level that the shower will function. without the bar of pressure, the shower will be unable to serve its purpose. Some people were being sold the pumped electric showers on the misinformation that their shower would be more powerful than they were used to.

also, nowhere did I say that people were going home with the wrong showers.

Bruthal

zuroph wrote: »

maybe im not being clear. A pumped electric shower offers no more flow than a mains electric shower, which is still a much more limited flow than a power shower, as the flow is deliberately limited to allow time to heat.
I reread what I wrote and should have been clearer on that point. a pumped electric shower is not giving you a power shower, it merely increases the flow to an acceptable level that the shower will function. without the bar of pressure, the shower will be unable to serve its purpose. Some people were being sold the pumped electric showers on the misinformation that their shower would be more powerful than they were used to.

also, nowhere did I say that people were going home with the wrong showers.

Yes but your technical description was like that from a salesman, very seriously flawed. You had said a power shower has a pump, where as an electric shower uses electricity to heat the water.

I simply stated electric showers have a pump to increase the flow of water in them, this is correct, if you still believe the pump in an instant shower "does not increase flow but pulls water from the tank to give the water more time to heat" then you do need to do some reading up on it, the pump does the opposite to this, it increases flow to allow enough water to flow to get the water to a comfortable temperature while flowing over a 9kw element, without the pump the water will be boiling, in fact a pressure switch will stop the elements from coming on if the pump stops, now if a pressure switch operates when the water flow is high enough, could this suggest the water pressure in the instant shower is increased by the pump, contrary to your earlier statement.

I said both electric instant showers and power showers have pumps, where as you used the fact power showers have a pump as one of the criteria to tell them apart.

Both electric and power showers are very very simple in their technical operation to anyone who regularly installs them, i assume you have experience of installing both types of showers?

zuroph

no, I never said i have any experience installing either, I said I sold them.

I am giving the simplest explanation for a layperson to better understand which shower they need. All I am saying is people were getting told that because they bought a pumped electric, they'd have a more powerful shower, and this was way off the mark. I am right in that they will have no major increase in pressure like a power shower would supply, and you are correct in that they do technically increase the pressure, but only to a still very slow level.

Its a simplistic explanation yes, but K.I.S.S.

It has been a common misconception (that the manfacturers didnt care to stop spreading) that a pumped electric shower would give good pressure and instantly heat the water. You can only have one or the other.

anyway, way off topic now, so lets leave it.

Bruthal

zuroph wrote: »

no, I never said i have any experience installing either, I said I sold them.

I am giving the simplest explanation for a layperson to better understand which shower they need. All I am saying is people were getting told that because they bought a pumped electric, they'd have a more powerful shower, and this was way off the mark. I am right in that they will have no major increase in pressure like a power shower would supply, and you are correct in that they do technically increase the pressure, but only to a still very slow level.

Its a simplistic explanation yes, but K.I.S.S.

It has been a common misconception (that the manfacturers didnt care to stop spreading) that a pumped electric shower would give good pressure and instantly heat the water. You can only have one or the other.

anyway, way off topic now, so lets leave it.

Ok but if you think the pump only slightly incrases the pressure then you should get into an electric shower first with pump on, then off, its a big difference. You are confusing the performance of a power shower v an instant shower and mixing this into the electric shower pump effectiveness. It sounds like your a sales person with no actual technical knowledge to be honest.

I dont know where you get your actual info from, an instant shower has enough pressure to do the job does it not? And is instant enough is it not? If the water is cold in the house the instant shower can be ready by the time your ready to get into it, what else would you want in an instant shower. No one is arguing about an instant shower being better than a power shower.

But a ferrari is better than my nissan almera, but the almera still gets me into town. And the vast majority of us do fine with our average cars at relitively average prices.

And its not a simplistic explanation you gave, its technically badly flawed.

zuroph

ugh.

people THOUGHT they were getting a power shower that heated the water instantly. They're not. that's all I'm trying to put across.

I originally pointed out that a power shower is not one that heats the water. thats all i'm trying to say.

yes it increases the flow, but not to any level like that of a power shower, which is the misconception that many people have, then come back complaining that their shower isnt that powerful.

I'm not a salesperson any more FWIW.

Bruthal

zuroph wrote: »

ugh.

yes it increases the flow, but not to any level like that of a power shower, which is the misconception that many people have, then come back complaining that their shower isnt that powerful.

I'm not a salesperson any more FWIW.

Well like i said, you turned my statement pointing out that an instant shower has a pump into a power shower v instant shower debate. A sure salesman alright. Lots of sales men are clueless about what they sell. Go to pc world and see what i mean. Now your saying the pump increases flow, earlier it did`t, which is it.

And who has this misconception you speak of, most people that come in could not tell you the factual differences between a power shower and an electric one, most sales men are going to up the items they sell, so it may be the sales men that increase misconceptions more than manufacturers. Thats why they are salesmen.

Some do complain electric showers dont have the flow they expected alright, particularly in the winter. But thats not a mix up with power shower performance usually, its just peoples expectations in general.
I will probably put a power shower in here at some stage, but the electric one does fine.

The description "power shower" itself can be misleading, as they actually use very little power during their operation, unlike an electric one.

Bruthal

Just as a point of interest, a 9kw shower will have a certain flow and this flow is governed by the desired temp, ambient water temp, and the element size. To get more flow with the same desired temp with the same water ambient temp requires a bigger element. And the pump to supply the extra flow will need to be a little bigger, so its the element size which governs the actual average water flow capability.

zuroph

you win.

Bruthal

zuroph wrote: »

you win.

I dont win, its not a contest, i made a simple statement but the (ex)salesman came in still trying to sell.

zuroph

Im not trying to sell!!!!!! I'm saying that people come in having being told an electric pumped shower will suit them, when what they really want is a powerful shower, and an electric is not what they want/need at all.

jesus christ, leave it go, the thread is far enough off topic now.

Bruthal

zuroph wrote: »

jesus christ, leave it go, the thread is far enough off topic now.

Well it must of took a while to find your medal there to come back with, who took it off topic, any ideas? I think the word pedantic was used by him in very first post.

Take a chill pill there and relax

Stoner

ok guys, we have gone way off the subject here. it is a pity it went so far to be honest. we almost dipped into abuse and childish posts here. its happened to us all but it takes two to tango. i know that you both think you are correct, but the op was forgotten in this case. try to count ten first next time please. thank you.