Seduction School Seminar & Bootcamp!

prinz

Earthhorse wrote: »

Part of the idea is to converse with the person not just chat them up. If you know my example was just an example then why pick wholes in it?

I wasn't picking holes in it. I was demonstrating the way in which it is likely to work, i.e. causing a girl to question herself.

Earthhorse wrote: »

I'm sure a lot of people do use it in this manner. Girls with low self esteem, indeed people with low self esteem, are always going to be exploited.
PUAs didn't invent that I'm afraid.

They didn't invent it. They are exploiting it.

Dr. Zeus

Obviously it works on the premise that all women are exactly the same and will respond in the same manner to a neg. No room for individual difference then?

prinz

consultech wrote: »

...thus cause her to seek your validation and to prove that she is. It's nothing to do with shoes.

QED. If that's the only way you can pick up a girl it's a sad state of affairs. I'd rather a girl want me for me, not to validate herself tbh.

Ectoplasm

PUA crap does work....but it's a numbers game. I've a friend who was curious about it after another mutual aquaintance got very OTT into it. He decided to give it a go, just to see if it did actually work.

He thought a lot of it was bull**** but there was some good info and he figured for a guy who has some issues approaching women, some of it could be useful. Overall though, his conclusion was that it came down to numbers. By investing in the technique and seeing if it worked, he was approaching far far more women than he usually would - and he isn't a shy guy. A lot of women did see through the PUA bull and he'd get knocked back, but some didn't. Even then it didn't guarantee success. He said it basically came down to the fact that he was approaching a LOT more women so he was a lot more successful.

The danger is with the guy who buys into it wholesale - I've no time for it personally and I have heard some of the canned opening lines on a few occassions. It's an instant turn off...creepy and blech. It's impossible to dismiss completely. If it was all bullsh1t, then it'd never have taken off. The problem is, there is some good mixed in with a whole lot of bad, and the end result is, as somebody else put it, sexist to both men and women.

Earthhorse

Dr. Zeus wrote: »

I don't get then why you wouldn't be more genuine and just say to the girl "I am sure you are sick of getting attention from guys, obviously you are attractive etc"and get her attention that way in a nicer manner, rather than taking out neg number 125 common shoe insult!

You still don't understand. The idea isn't to have a stock of negs that you draw on appropriate to the situation. The idea is to be able to be a little more sincere and less fawning when complimenting a girl.

prinz wrote: »

I wasn't picking holes in it. I was demonstrating the way in which it is likely to work, i.e. causing a girl to question herself.

I was addressing Dr Z there, not you.

They didn't invent it. They are exploiting it.

Some are, some aren't. Like every other group of people on the planet.

consultech

Dr. Zeus wrote: »

"I am sure you are sick of getting attention from guys, obviously you are attractive etc"

haha, I didn't even read this before my last comment; Kinda proves the point being made. Look up the term "AFC" (maybe with "seduction" after it) Zeus.

prinz wrote: »

Confident girl inner voice: 'Yeah whatever, they are fashionable shoes. Big MEH'

Girl with esteem issues: 'oh no, im common, I knew I wasn't special after all, he doesn't like that, he doesnt like me, what can I do to make him like me...etc etc'

By-the-by Prinz, the overwhelming majority of girls have some sort of esteem issues. Some moreso than others. You may not have twigged this yet.

Anyway, I'm out (No Theo Paphitis).

PeakOutput

prinz wrote: »

I've been watching it happen and discussing it with one of my best mates for nigh on 10 years now who is into this stuff. I know how it works, and he knows how it works. Every single girl he has 'picked up' this way that lasted any significant amount of time had esteem issues. Hardly coincidence, and I've seen him fail using it a lot more often than not.

1. he isnt very good at what he is doing then

2.after the first couple of interactions 'the game' has nothing to do with it, it just helps you get to that point

3. any girl who i have seen been picked up in this way (including some of the most beautifull women you will ever see) have been on cloud 9 during the entire experience. im not saying that the idea that you need to neg someone isnt used poorly and can often lead to insult and can be used to pick on low self esteem people but htats not how its supposed to be used and anyone doing that dosnt know jack about what they are doing

4.everyone is self conscious about something

5.someone said something about individuality and it not leaving room for any? psychology is based on the fact that even as individual humans there are massive common traits in our psychology. just because you respond to certain stimuli the same way as most other people dosnt make you any less of an individual

6.i cant remember what talk show it was in the states but it was one aimed at women and they had some of the head guys of these companies on to explain themselves and by the end of it the women were pretty much on their side having been totally against them at the start, ill try and dig out the video on youtube it might do a better job explaining what its about then i will

PeakOutput

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNAi1Lso1IU

edit; its dr phil so feel free to completely dismiss it if you want

OutlawPete

I know a guy who can walk into a nightclub, pick out any girl, usually the hottest one there, and end up with her that night. He's a rapist.

consultech

OutlawPete wrote: »

I know a guy who can walk into a nightclub, pick out any girl, usually the hottest one there, and end up with her that night. He's a rapist.

One of the related videos of the one posted above is "The most aggressive pick up artist in america"... I don't even wanna know how that routine goes!

prinz

consultech wrote: »

By-the-by Prinz, the overwhelming majority of girls have some sort of esteem issues. Some moreso than others. You may not have twigged this yet.

..and you're only too willing to exploit that. Then you wonder why there are girls who are hard to talk to :rolleyes:

*not that I'd agree with the above at all btw, but whatever floats your boat.

smash

Why bother with mind manipulation? The cavemen did ok for themselves with just a club made of wood and a grunt.

Nevyn

Earthhorse wrote: »

It's odd, but whenever these threads come up, the very people who decry PUA as creepy, transparent and only applicable in America are the ones who seem to fear it most.

If their techniques are so transparent and awful what's the problem?

I don't fear it personally at all, it's playing games with people's heads and I can spot it a mile of and find a lot of the material to be insulting to anyone who as any cop on and awareness. And yes I dont' like exploitive crap and
night clubs are filled enough with drunken people making bad decisions with out this new type of entitled bloke who will stop at nothing to get what he wants on a night out.

kowloon wrote: »

This neg thing still has me confused.

Would people and the wildly varied ways in which they interact not be so varied as to make covering even a fraction of situations in a seminar impossible?

They go for the average cookie cutter early 20s not so confident female and work off that. And they just keep on hitting on all the women around them until they get some interest. The neg stuff is pretty harsh.

OutlawPete

Never went in for PUA stuff as I find it laughable, however - of all the guys I know who pull out of their league, it is the ones who have the ability to bull**** women that do the best.

I don't see the point, as the woman you will end up with, won't like the real you when you drop the crap, but if your just looking for a one-night-stand, then I guess it has it's advantages.

Women say they don't like this stuff, but then they will list 'charming' as being good quality when describing their ideal guy.

To me charming equals smarmy, no matter how you dress it up - but again, these guys do seem to do well with the ladies.

You will also hear women say they like "Bad boys" all the fucking time, ever hear men saying they like bitches?

Lets not forget also, that while we might rightfully criticize these men for trying to manipulate women into bed with words, women can just manipulate men with their bodies.

RedXIV

OutlawPete wrote: »

Lets not forget also, that while we might rightfully criticize these men for trying to manipulate women into bed with words, women just manipulate men with their bodies.

This is probably one of the most relevant points to be made. People are, in fairness, rightfully pointing out that by using he methodologies that they can glean from this, they are coming across as false. They aren't showing their true nature or who they really are. I'd slightly disagree with this. What the underlying message is generally that you don't change who you are, you instead learn to present the best possible version of you.

And this fact is widely prevalent in the fairer sex as well on a night out. Make up, nice clothes, done up hair, high heels, all designed to make you look more attractive, effectively displaying yourself in the best possible fashion. Men are simply playing catch up in this game by learning to express attractive qualities. And as many people here have stated before, men are visual creatures so it makes sense for women to concentrate on appearance but women require something else, they need to feel an emotional tug and thats what men are learning to broadcast

Links234

this thread really makes me sick

stovelid

Snakeblood wrote: »

I can believe it. I used to be terrible at talking to women. Most of my female friends from abroad are shocked at how bad Irish men are at even asking a woman out for a date.

Yeah, but that's a matter of building your confidence and projecting your personality to people, including women.

Not learning some mortifying playa routine in order to hit on women.

OutlawPete

RedXIV wrote: »

Make up, nice clothes, done up hair, high heels, all designed to make you look more attractive, effectively displaying yourself in the best possible fashion.

Precisely, women don't have to hone such skills as 'breaking the ice' the way men have to, they manipulate attention off men by making themselves appear to be better looking than they naturally are or by just wearing revealing clothes that they know will get them sexual attention.

Lets face it, a guy may pretend to be something he is not, or indeed someone he is not, in order to get you into bed, but women do too, I mean ..

Is your stomach that flat when you take that figure squashing top off?

Are your boobs that big without that special bra?

Are you eyelashes really that colour?

Are your eye-LIDS really that colour!?!

Do you really smell that nice?

Are you lips that plump?

Are you really that tall?

Is your hair colour natural?

Is your skin colour natural?

Do you really have bald legs!!

prinz

OutlawPete wrote: »

Is your stomach that flat when you take that figure squashing top off? Are your boobs that big without that special bra? Are you eyelashes really that colour? Are your eye-LIDS really that colour!?! Do you really smell that nice? Are you lips that plump? Are you really that tall? Is your hair colour natural? Is your skin colour natural?
Do you really have bald legs!!

All these things relate to the girl improving herself/her image. There is nothing wrong with a guy making his appearance better/presenting a 'better' image of himself.

The difference is a lot of this PUA isn't about that. It's about subtly undemrining the girl. BIG difference. It's not about dating you because she really wants to, it becomes about she wanting to date you because she needs you to make her feel better about herself.

Personally IMO it is a very, very, very, very, very 'light' form of domestic violence. The same basic principles apply.

minidazzler

Not really into that whole scene. I do get the whole fake confidence thing though, I faked confidence for years before finally gaining it really. So I suppose as a crutch to get lads to walk on their own it might be good, but the whole seeing women as targets? I don't get that?

I guess it's because I actually like women as people, but it seems like cnutish behaviour just to have a ONS, there are easier ways to have a ONS, why bother making someone feel sh1t about themselves?

Meh, not for me really, and if any of my friends started preaching how good it was, I would laugh at and ridicule them.

OutlawPete

prinz wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with a guy making his appearance better/presenting a 'better' image of himself.

Oh come on.

You tell me wear the average guy can buy the clothes that would get him the sexual attention that a woman will get when she wears a low cut top or a mini-skirt.

The point is that women do not have to bull**** guys with words that they don't mean, they get attention anyway.

prinz wrote: »

The difference is a lot of this PUA isn't about that. It's about subtly undemrining the girl.

I have already said that I disproved of that, however - I do understand it.

If women get attention by pretending to be better looking that they are, then I see no difference in guys pretending to be nicer guys than they actually are.

At the end of the end, it is down to men to chat women.

prinz wrote: »

Personally IMO it is a very, very, very, very, very 'light' form of domestic violence. The same basic principles apply.

What??

You want to tell me exactly what a guy has to say to a woman when chatting her up, that would then make it on a comparison with 'domestic violence'.

prinz

OutlawPete wrote: »

What??You want to tell me exactly what a guy has to say to a woman when chatting her up, that would then make it on a comparison with 'domestic violence'.

On a very basic level, the constant undertone to a lot of it, is get the girl to question your opinion of her, and her own self worth. In the end your aim is to get her to sleep with you to feel better about herself. That by giving you what you want will make you think better of her. It's a ploy to get her into a position where she feels like she needs you to feel better about herself.

That's exactly the kind of mind game and mental control with which abusive spouses control their victims. Husbands who tell their wives how ugly they, how no other men would want them etc... essentially boils down to the same thing. It builds a dependancy on someone else for how you see yourself.

prinz

OutlawPete wrote: »

If women get attention by pretending to be better looking that they are, then I see no difference in guys pretending to be nicer guys than they actually are..

That's not what a lot of the PUA stuff revolves around though. A hell of a lot of it comes down to six words in the end 'Treat her mean, keep her keen'.

parker kent

prinz wrote: »

On a very basic level, the constant undertone to a lot of it, is get the girl to question your opinion of her, and her own self worth. In the end your aim is to get her to sleep with you to feel better about herself. That by giving you what you want will make you think better of her. It's a ploy to get her into a position where she feels like she needs you to feel better about herself.

That's exactly the kind of mind game and mental control with which abusive spouses control their victims. Husbands who tell their wives how ugly they, how no other men would want them etc... essentially boils down to the same thing. It builds a dependancy on someone else for how you see yourself.

You are really, really reading too much into this thing. This all sounds like a way to improve some guys confidence and get them to break the ice with girls in a way that makes them stand out.

I view the whole "neg" thing (I've never actually heard that word before today!) as being the very same as having some banter to break the ice. It just seems like using something a bit different to open conversation instead of the same old tired clichéd lines. Or instead of the overly fawning compliments some guys give.

One guy I know saw a girl at our local bar one day and went up to her and said "Who do you think you are coming in here dressed up like that?". He said it in a mock-serious voice and it made her laugh. He said something she probably hadn't heard before and he seemed like a laugh. Then they had some back and forth banter all night. They got married in June. So reverse compliments can work and don't have be insulting or demeaning in any way.

Edit: FYI I am not saying that the seduction school idea is good, it sounds like a pyramid scheme. But there does seem to be a few ideas in there that are truthful or useful. Just don't pay €500 for them!

Wibbs

EMF2010 wrote: »

PUA crap does work....but it's a numbers game.../... Overall though, his conclusion was that it came down to numbers.../... He said it basically came down to the fact that he was approaching a LOT more women so he was a lot more successful.

This in a big way. It's almost entirely a numbers game. Of course if an otherwise shy guy keeps going he gets what he missed out on in his gauche adolescence, practice. Look lets be frank, 50% of the world is female. If you can't get one then you're doing something wrong. You're either so out there you're a no hoper, which is incredibly rare, or you're not meeting enough. Simple as that. With the basic odds out there, it's harder to avoid getting one. Same goes for women.

The danger is with the guy who buys into it wholesale

Nail on the head. It's very specifically and cynically aimed at a certain demographic of men. Low confidence(naturally), socially immature, usually linear thinking men who work on A to B plans, lets tick boxes/press button A, button B B B, Button C in life. This stuff has been out since the 70's but really went ballistic with the internet. The demographic was a fertile ground for it. By its very nature you're going to find more "geeky" socially immature guys who can plan their retorts to their hearts content etc.

I spotted and flagged this guff in PI a good while back now. They use the same internal jargon(negs, AFC average frustrated chump, AMOG(which they all want to be) and are heavy into the feedback loops inherent in the various "systems". There are whole websites, books, DVD's, seminars, one to one training out there and its making a fortune for those running them. Its an Amway for the crotch. I read into a few of them and guess what they do make some good points. Obvious ones for the most part, but some good points. But it's wrapped up in a lot of buy more of this to get better stuff.

A while back now I actually bumped into one of these "gurus" and he was honest about the whole thing and it was an eyeopener as far as how much money there is to be made.

prinz wrote: »

All these things relate to the girl improving herself/her image. There is nothing wrong with a guy making his appearance better/presenting a 'better' image of himself.

The difference is a lot of this PUA isn't about that. It's about subtly undemrining the girl. BIG difference. It's not about dating you because she really wants to, it becomes about she wanting to date you because she needs you to make her feel better about herself.

I'd partly agree. Certainly with the more extreme forms.

OutlawPete

prinz wrote: »

It's a ploy to get her into a position where she feels like she needs you to feel better about herself.

Like what?

I am asking for spcifics as the line between bull****ting/charming women into bed and this PUA stuff, seems to me to be getting very blurred on this thread.

So can you tell me just one or two things a guy could say to a woman, that would qualify as "mental control" and that would make the woman then feel that she had no option but to then sleep with the guy, in order for her to feel better about herself?

Red Hand

How exactly are these techniques that Earthhorse and Peakoutput talk about different from the ones that ladies men use? By ladies men, I mean fellows that are socially plugged in, and able to chat, banter, flirt, slag with women with ease and with whom women are drawn to/entertained by/attracted to, and have been comfortable with doing this for years?

This seems to be more for fellows who this doesn't come naturally to. Lets face it, there are many males there who are reserved and quiet. People mean well when they say "just go up to her and chat to her, and be yourself", but if by "being yourself" is being someone who doesn't have a whole lot to say to perfect strangers, then how is that going to work? Bit of an empty solution.

People generally don't like being bored or having to listen someone who is clumsy and awkward in their social interactions.

Saying that, I wouldn't feel comfortable with this myself. I prefer being a bore...:pac:

Nevyn

OutlawPete wrote: »

Oh come on.

You tell me wear the average guy can buy the clothes that would get him the sexual attention that a woman will get when she wears a low cut top or a mini-skirt.

The average girl who is a size 16 won't get the type of attention you are on about, so please parity.

OutlawPete wrote: »

The point is that women do not have to bull**** guys with words that they don't mean, they get attention anyway.

Really?
"I don't have a bf", "I do watch soccer/F1"," I like blow jobs"," I dont' normally do this"
Please both genders to it.

OutlawPete wrote: »

If women get attention by pretending to be better looking that they are, then I see no difference in guys pretending to be nicer guys than they actually are.

Negs and other such tricks are not being nice, and who know if they tried being nice instead of pretending to be nice, they may find it easier.
Still a person can be nice and be confident and cocksure but just not be an arrogant arse, there is a balance to be struck, and alot of the the PUA players go from one extreme to the other, venting along the way thier pent up frustrations and laying all the blame on women.

OutlawPete wrote: »

At the end of the end, it is down to men to chat women.

I think that is rubbish and most of them men I have ended up seeing for any length of time I have asked them out. It could be argued that women would to more of the asking out if they were not ridiculed and treated like freaks when they do it.



What??

You want to tell me exactly what a guy has to say to a woman when chatting her up, that would then make it on a comparison with 'domestic violence'.[/QUOTE]

prinz

OutlawPete wrote: »

So can you tell me just one or two things a guy could say to a woman, that would qualify as "mental control" and that would make the woman then feel that she had no option but to then sleep with the guy, in order for her to feel better about herself?

The kind of back-handed "compliments" that would be water off a ducks back to most women but become something much more damaging when a woman already has esteem issues. One or two could be forgotten about if you're after a ONS (which often times damages your esteem anyway so it's one step forward two back). It's when you are dating a girl and that sort of dig becomes normalised, and the patern repeats itself.. It's not all like this but there is definitely a trend, that becomes a trap that a guy could fall into if he sees it as working once or twice and starts to believe it's how women love to be treated.

RedXIV

Thaedydal wrote: »

The average girl who is a size 16 won't get the type of attention you are on about, so please parity.

Have to disagree here, all girls get attention on nights out. certainly more than guys ever will. Just because the majority of guys say they want a size 0 model with double Ds doesn't mean thats what they are really after, quite a few guys like girls outside conventional terms of beauty.

Thaedydal wrote: »

Really?
"I don't have a bf", "I do watch soccer/F1"," I like blow jobs"," I dont' normally do this"
Please both genders to it.

The point he's making though is that girls just need to dress in any way attractively and they will get attention. Guys do have to try harder.

Thaedydal wrote: »

Negs and other such tricks are not being nice, and who know if they tried being nice instead of pretending to be nice, they may find it easier.
Still a person can be nice and be confident and cocksure but just not be an arrogant arse, there is a balance to be struck, and alot of the the PUA players go from one extreme to the other, venting along the way thier pent up frustrations and laying all the blame on women.

I agree that the guys who take it to extremes are ridiculous. But there are aspects which are helpful and the neg translates particularly well to Ireland as we like a bit of banter. Note that I'm saying it translates as opposed to it being used as expressed by the type of PUA who's just interested in getting laid. A guy trying to become more socially capable can learn quite a few good tips from this and in my mind its no different than a girl learning a few new fashion tips.

Thaedydal wrote: »

I think that is rubbish and most of them men I have ended up seeing for any length of time I have asked them out. It could be argued that women would to more of the asking out if they were not ridiculed and treated like freaks when they do it.

I think you'll find very few guys would object to being asked out, I have been twice and loved it both times. But I hasten to point out that the VAST majority of women seem to wait for a man to ask them out.

kiad

Thaedydal wrote: »

The average girl who is a size 16 won't get the type of attention you are on about

They would from guys who like fat chicks

OutlawPete

Thaedydal wrote: »

The average girl who is a size 16 won't get the type of attention you are on about, so please parity.

Are you having a laugh?

I drink in Dublin and larger ladies have no problem getting attention off guys.

Thaedydal wrote: »

I think that is rubbish ..

Think it rubbish if you wish, that doesn't make it any less of a fact.

Men, by and large, are the ones that have to break the ice chat women up when on nights out, to suggest anything else is just flat out wrong.

You will always get the odd woman who will approach guys, but in the vast majority of instances, it falls to men to approach women and not the other way around.

Thaedydal wrote: »

It could be argued that women would to more of the asking out if they were not ridiculed and treated like freaks when they do it.

Women get laughed at when they approach men and ridiculed for it??

Well, maybe this is something that women do to other women, but I have never seen a girl get laughed at or ridiculed for approaching guys, quite the contrary in fact, men love that.

I do however see women be obnoxious arrogant bitches when guys so much as say 'hello' to them.

In all my years going out to pubs and clubs, I have yet to see a guy ignore or be needlessly insulting to girls that have approached them and said hello.

I wish I could say the converse was also true.

Scanlas The 2nd

It's interesting how so many people see talking to women as common sense.

I've never heard the following really basic advice outside the PUA community.

1.Make a woman laugh at herself. You may hear the variant that humour is very important but that sort of advice can ruin a man's sex life for life because of no. 2.

2. Don't try to impress a woman. When a woman thinks you are trying to impress her or manage her image of you she will lose interest. So when you go around trying to be funny to make her laugh as opposed to yourself she loses interest.

I reiterate, this is really basic advice. But I've never heard it from anyone outside of PUA community.

By the way I'm not saying there isn't bullsh*t in the community. There certainly is. But there is some amazingly effective non manipulative stuff in there too if you know where to look.

Kimono-Girl

OutlawPete wrote: »

I do however see women be obnoxious arrogant bitches when guys so much as say 'hello' to them.

In all my years going out to pubs and clubs, I have yet to see a guy ignore or be needlessly insulting to girls that have approached them and said hello.

i have to +1 this, majority of my friends are male, i am usually the only girl on nights out with my friends, and i see the above ALL the time, they are some decent guys and girls won't even look twice at them,

BUT i have to say we have found and have successfully done it on many nights out where if i go out on the dancefloor and dance with one of the guys and then they go to the bar on their own, they are approached by girls, so is it a case of girls will only want a guy if he has a girlfriend?

that to me just seems wrong and yet without fail all it takes is one dance with a girl to make them approachable!

minidazzler

candlelover wrote: »

i have to +1 this, majority of my friends are male, i am usually the only girl on nights out with my friends, and i see the above ALL the time, they are some decent guys and girls won't even look twice at them,

BUT i have to say we have found and have successfully done it on many nights out where if i go out on the dancefloor and dance with one of the guys and then they go to the bar on their own, they are approached by girls, so is it a case of girls will only want a guy if he has a girlfriend?

that to me just seems wrong and yet without fail all it takes is one dance with a girl to make them approachable!

That's just social proof really, "he's good enough for one girl, he's good enough for me"

It happens in alot of group situations, even down to nationality and such.

Wibbs

Thaedydal wrote: »

The average girl who is a size 16 won't get the type of attention you are on about, so please parity.

I agree as far as parity goes, yes the size 10 will generally get more attention, even so I'd have to agree with RedXIV and OutlawPete that the average size 16 woman still gets more attention than the average man, even the not so average man. Dont get me wrong she may not like the kind of men giving her the attention but she'll still get it.

Really?
"I don't have a bf", "I do watch soccer/F1"," I like blow jobs"," I dont' normally do this"
Please both genders to it.

+1 on this one.

Negs and other such tricks are not being nice, and who know if they tried being nice instead of pretending to be nice, they may find it easier.
Still a person can be nice and be confident and cocksure but just not be an arrogant arse, there is a balance to be struck, and alot of the the PUA players go from one extreme to the other,

Aye that's the problem alright with this guff. Plus I've noted that a "neg" from one guy can get a flirt and the same from another get the doormen called. It's much more about the personality and intent behind it. Like the diff between friendly slagging and nasty crap. I've actually watched a bloke try this negging thing and what he was actually saying wasnt particularly bad, how he was saying it was bloody cringeworthy. It just didnt fit him at all. It was so clear he was acting this part. I'd say most of these guys(well the ones Ive seen at it) come across not as arrogant, but actually a bit sad. Major turn off.

venting along the way thier pent up frustrations and laying all the blame on women.

In a big way. Usually goes as such: Women never noticed me at school and I never approached them just stayed in my own little clique with similar peers-got "lucky" with one woman-fell massively in love-screwed it up(usually by being way over the top)-I get dumped, feel down and unloved-see her go off with another-get even more internalised and angry-find PUA-the dodgy stuff plugs right into the anger and what I have come to believe(all women are emotion driven opportunistic bitches)-I seek out women precisely like this as people usually prefer to be proven "right" not happy-I exaggerate my successes and minimise my failures-like minded people agree and share their "experience"-I feel part of something-Guru gets rich.

I think that is rubbish and most of them men I have ended up seeing for any length of time I have asked them out.

Yes, fair play and there are women like you, but that is very rare IME for women to do that, at least anyway obviously.

It could be argued that women would to more of the asking out if they were not ridiculed and treated like freaks when they do it.

Again IME way more other women than men will judge another woman for doing that. I've seen that upclose more than once "oh she had to ask him out, you know. Wont last" BS. Hand on heart I've heard that a fair number of times and like I say women like you are sadly rare. Hand on heart again, I have never and I mean never heard a man ridicule a woman for that. Maybe its just my circle but I really doubt it.

What??

You want to tell me exactly what a guy has to say to a woman when chatting her up, that would then make it on a comparison with 'domestic violence'.

Yea WTF? It's not even in the same solar system as domestic violence. Sheesh.

Dudess

General Zod wrote: »

watch Magnolia for what to expect from this type of "seminar".

Ah... the lovely Frank T.J. Mackey: "Respect the cock! And tame the cunt!"

Turns out to be a miserable, woman-hating mess

I know there are mild PUA techniques, but the extreme ones - like those used by the fictional Mr Mackey, and a guy on Boards actually who keeps re-regging - are just horrible and disturbing and their proponents cannot be anything other than woman-haters. I've read of tactics such as: "Pretend to be really sensitive and easily upset", "Pretend something traumatic happened in your life" etc.

consultech wrote: »

The other subset of the morality-brigade are usually women who really really don't like the idea that they're being played (the way they've played guys their whole life), and that men can actually be socially smarter than them.

Some people just don't like the idea - nothing deeper. Aren't they allowed that? And they might not like the idea of being played because they wouldn't play people themselves.

OutlawPete wrote: »

Lets not forget also, that while we might rightfully criticize these men for trying to manipulate women into bed with words, women can just manipulate men with their bodies.

First one is deliberate, second one not always. A woman might simply like looking her best because it makes her feel good about herself, as opposed to going out dressed casually and with no make-up on and with her hair tied back, which may not look bad, but not her best. Sure, she may get compliments and admiring glances but that in itself is not a cynical manipulation strategy - that's just enjoying looking nice, which is perfectly reasonable.

OutlawPete

Wibbs wrote: »

Yea WTF? It's not even in the same solar system as domestic violence. Sheesh.

That was actually one of my quotes that sneaked into to Thae's post there

OutlawPete

Dudess wrote: »

A woman might simply like looking her best because it makes her feel good about herself ..

No girl I know, puts on a mini-skirt, tight tops with bewbs hanging out, while staying in to read a book.

If it makes them "feel good", it is because of the attention they get.

Dudess wrote: »

.. as opposed to going out dressed casually and with no make-up on and with her hair tied back, which may not look bad, but not her best.

I'm not referring to women that want to look 'their best'.

I am talking about wearing clothes that are clearly to look as 'hot' as possible.

Dudess wrote: »

Sure, she may get compliments and admiring glances but that in itself is not a cynical manipulation strategy - that's just enjoying looking nice, which is perfectly reasonable.

There is a difference between dressing to impress at a job interview (although, I'm sure some women try to manipulate here also) and a women going out where almost everything they wear is to accentuate themselves in every sexual way possible.

I'm not knocking it by the way, I see zero wrong with it.

If there was a clothes shop where they sold men's clothes that would have the same effect on women that mini skirts, low cut tops and high heels have on men, there would be some fecking queue for the place.

FruitLover

OutlawPete wrote: »

If there was a clothes shop where they sold men's clothes that would have the same effect on women that mini skirts, low cut tops and high heels have on men, there would be some fecking queue for the place.

Check Amazon.

Dudess

OutlawPete wrote: »

No girl I know, puts on a mini-skirt, tight tops with bewbs hanging out, while staying in to read a book.

If it makes them "feel good", it is because of the attention they get.

Absolutely. I didn't say otherwise. But that's not as aggressive a strategy of manipulation as the PUA stuff you compared it to. It's often not a strategy at all - just simply enjoying looking good and yes, the flattery that goes with that. Perfectly natural.
If, however, a woman gets super sexified and sticks her boobs and arse out at every guy she sees and dances/grinds up against them sexily and pouts and flutters her eyelashes etc, etc... and then loses the plot with a guy who responds to this, then yep, she is a manipulative ****.

I'm not referring to women that want to look 'their best'.

I am talking about wearing clothes that are clearly to look as 'hot' as possible.

Not mutually exclusive. Also, skimpy clothes might make a woman look anything but hot. "As hot as possible" varies from woman to woman. Stripper clothes look utterly ludicrous on some women, including me. I'd have far more chance of a shag if I dressed more conservatively - e.g. ok a short (but not micro-short) skirt but long top that's not very low-cut, and tights. And heels that aren't high enough to cause permanent foot damage.

Lux23

Surely a personal development course is what someone needs if they are shy with men/women or both as the case may be. They don't really do them for straight guys though, the Outhouse is the only place I know that offers them to men.

OutlawPete

Dudess wrote: »

But that's not as aggressive a strategy of manipulation as the PUA stuff you compared it to.

It doesn't have to be as it will get them the desired effect.

It makes men look at them in a sexual way and that is what they want.

My point about staying at home and not dressing that way is that, if those clothes just made women feel good about themselves, they would wear them at home on their own.

Those clothes make them feel good because they get a very specific type of attention, sexual attention.

As far as I am concerned, that too is manipulating guys minds so that they will look at them and want what they have.

PUA guys manipulate women so that they will see them so that thye will look at them and want what they have.

I see no difference.

Granted, some PUA stuff goes beyond that, but the vast majority of what I have seen on YouTube does not.

Dudess wrote: »

It's often not a strategy at all - just simply enjoying looking good and yes, the flattery that goes with that. Perfectly natural.

You're talking about just nice clothes again, I am not.

I am talking about a very specific way of dressing.

Dudess wrote: »

Also, skimpy clothes might make a woman look anything but hot.

Of course, but that's neither here nor there.

Here's two photos of Davina McCall.

One is purely sexually manipulative and the other is not.

By the way, I think women should wear whatever the fcuk they want to wear.

Ickle Magoo

I think there is an important distinction, certainly in terms of ethical considerations, between dressing provocatively for the world at large and targeting a specific person to manipulate.

Logical Fallacy

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I think there is an important distinction, certainly in terms of ethical considerations, between dressing provocatively for the world at large and targeting a specific person to manipulate.

Personally i just get tired of the concept that a good looking woman can manipulate any man she likes....only if the guy in question is a ****ing chump tbh.

With regards to the seminar itself, a fool and his money are easily parted.

OutlawPete

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I think there is an important distinction, certainly in terms of ethical considerations, between dressing provocatively for the world at large and targeting a specific person to manipulate.

It's not about targeting a specific person.

Sure a girl going out on the pull has no idea who she is going to meet.

It's about specifically dressing to garner sexual attention, which is a form of manipulation.

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Personally i just get tired of the concept that a good looking woman can manipulate any man she likes....only if the guy in question is a ****ing chump tbh.

Come one.

If a woman was dressed like Davina McCall in that second pic, you think every guy that then fancies her and chats her up is a "chump"?

Anyway, women will get attention no matter what they wear, it's just that dressing in a sexually provocative way makes it obvious that that is their intention.

Guys who do PUA are just looking to stack the chips more in their favour as perhaps they were not getting sexual attention.

As Scanlas said, some of the advice is harmless enough and as it is men who do the approaching, I think it is very easy for women to be criticizing them for doing so, but they don't really have that problem to begin with, so they are not likely to understand why it is that some guys might need to do it.

Gotta go.. I'm off out for the night, wish me luck

Puts on skin tight leather trousers, shirt open exposing hairy chest sporting a medallion, brylcreem'd sideburns and a splash of old spice, lovely jubbly

Logical Fallacy

OutlawPete wrote: »

If a woman was dressed like Davina McCall in that second pic, you think every guy that then fancies her and chats her up is a "chump"?

Did you actually read what i said?

At all?

Go back and try again.

Ickle Magoo

OutlawPete wrote: »

It's not about targeting a specific person.

Sure a girl going out on the pull has no idea who she is going to meet.

It's about specifically dressing to garner sexual attention, which is a form of manipulation.

Perhaps my definition is out but I always thought manipulation was being cunning and underhand - I don't think a micro mini & push-up bra qualify.

Micky Dolenz

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Perhaps my definition is out but I always thought manipulation was being cunning and underhand - I don't think a micro mini & push-up bra qualify.

Maybe you are wearing them wrong :P

Mint Sauce

kfallon wrote: »

The woman of me dreams....I don't want to be seen in public with that slut!!!

I wont be seen out with her at all