Multicultural society has failed

Memnoch

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559451

Attempts to build a multicultural society in Germany have "utterly failed", Chancellor Angela Merkel says.

In a speech in Potsdam, she said the so-called "multikulti" concept - where people would "live side-by-side" happily - did not work.

Mrs Merkel's comments come amid recent outpourings of strong anti-immigrant feeling from mainstream politicians.

A recent survey showed that more than 30% of Germans believed Germany was "overrun by foreigners".

To sum it up, high unemployment despite economy doing reasonably well, obviously it's the fault of those immigrants, going over there and taking the jobs from good, honest German people.

My own view is that in a century or two (assuming human progress rather than annihilation) attitudes towards immigration/immigrants today will be viewed the same way that attitudes towards blacks in America and elsewhere from 50 years ago are viewed now.

While acknowledging that this was the case, Mrs Merkel stressed that immigrants living in Germany needed to do more to integrate, including learning to speak German.

She's right about that at least.


I guess these problems will become more apparent for affluent countries where populations are getting older and older. But there has to be a certain level of respect from immigrants towards their host countries.

Memnoch

I'm really on the fence over the language issue, maybe because Irish isn't as ubiquitous here as it should be.

I get the cultural value of multiple languages, but as a race going forward, we should all just pick the one language, and English seems like the one.

Again, give it a couple of centuries and I think it will be.

I think English will be spoken by most of the world soon enough alright, with local languages being consigned to gaelteacht style areas.

The more you think about the situation that Europe and the US find themselves in the scarier it gets. Where does this anti-immigration stance end? Is there any possibility of a happy ending? I highly doubt it. Anti-immigration stances will continue to rise until they are the majority.

Memnoch

Na. Just like with any other aspect of progress, multi-culturalism and general equality, freedom, democracy are going to continue to rise.

Yes, there are still pockets in the world, and when you see things like Israel-Palestine, the invasion of Iraq, NK, Fox News etc. you could be forgiven for thinking that the world hasn't really changed, and in many ways it hasn't.

But if you look at the TREND, and compare it to say 100 years ago or 300 years ago or 2000 years ago (which isn't really that long in the context of our planet's history) then you can see that human "values," are progressing and will continue to do so, inevitably, despite the best resistance of the forces of those who seek to continually maintain the status quo.

The only way this won't happen is if there is some kind of serious global crisis to the order of magnitude of a nuclear holocaust, worst case global warming scenarios or some such catastrophic event.

The world is smaller, people are moving, they are mingling, having children, as we learnt that a human being with a different colour of skin was really no different from us deep down, soon we will realise that a human being born somewhere else is no different to us deep down either, and on and on it will go.

gurramok

She's right, immigrants should assimilate into their host countries and that has in most part failed.

Memnoch wrote:

My own view is that in a century or two (assuming human progress rather than annihilation) attitudes towards immigration/immigrants today will be viewed the same way that attitudes towards blacks in America and elsewhere from 50 years ago are viewed now

That is pathetic. Why didn't you just use the Jews instead?

KeithAFC

They are free to come to N.I any day.

gurramok

KeithAFC wrote: »

They are free to come to N.I any day.

Is that Protestant or Catholic immigrants?

KeithAFC

No, loyal immigrants

I think the german people should catch themselves on tbh.

PanchoVilla

gurramok wrote: »

She's right, immigrants should assimilate into their host countries and that has in most part failed.

Assimilation =/= multiculturalism

pablo_escobar

when there's high unemployment, immigrants are never welcome in any country.

i see nothing wrong with discussing the problems resulting from a relaxed approach to immigration.

lack of policy allows criminals to travel freely, putting citizens of your country in danger.

why ireland would allow people with criminal records into their country is bizzare.

Nodin

gurramok wrote: »

She's right, immigrants should assimilate into their host countries and that has in most part failed.

As its only been possible for non-Germans to get citizenship through residency as oppossed to "blood" for the last 9-10 years, I'd suggest that the failure is more on the German side.

Fo Real

Most of you have completely misunderstood the argument. Allow me to lower myself to your level and explain it for you.

Multiculturalism does not equal assimilation.

Assimilation was the immigration policy in the USA - the "melting pot" - where everybody who turned up on American shores spoke English, played baseball, ate American food, wore Western clothes. They assimilated into American society. It was relatively successful if you ask me. You won't find gangs of Muslims blocking off streets in Washington DC as you see in Paris or London.

Multiculturalism was the European policy of immigration, where there are many different cultures living side by side. Arabs dress in their native clothes, keep their native language, only speak and socialise with other Arabs and build a tall mosque in the centre of the city as a big "fúck you" gesture to the their host country. It is slowly being accepted that tolerance of these cultures has uterly failed. Sweden knows it, France knows it (good to see them banning religious dress from public life) and now Germany breaks its silence.

And the Irish are the last pople that I will listen to preach about the joys of multiculturalism. You can't even live side by side with Protestants up North. Instead you erect big Peace walls and vote for extremist governments, polarising society.

AlekSmart

I'd suggest that the failure is more on the German side

.

Nodin`s suggestion of Germanic failure here may well be true.

However,I find it somewhat odd that in this case,and the recent French gypsy repatriations,we inhabitants of a true Basket-Case EU member State feel able to lecture Governments of the few EU States which are managing to remain functional.

It might just be that their politicians are a tad more prescient and representative than our native variety who`se interpretation of almost every aspect of European community membership has revolved around taking their money and pisxxing it up agin a nearby wall.

Pablo_Escobar is correct...

lack of policy allows criminals to travel freely, putting citizens of your country in danger.

........and policy is one element that German administrations tend to be quite confident about unlike our own National attitude towards tiresome stuff like that,which facilitates small-time crooks to become Bankers,Regulators and even Heads of Governments....on an ongoing basis......:D

Nodin

Fo Real wrote: »

Most of you have completely misunderstood the argument.

Allow me to lower myself to your level and explain it for you.

Multiculturalism does not equal assimilation.

Assimilation was the immigration policy in the USA - the "melting pot" - where everybody who turned up on American shores spoke English, played baseball, ate American food, wore Western clothes. They assimilated into American society. It was relatively successful if you ask me. You won't find gangs of Muslims blocking off streets in Washington DC as you see in Paris or London.

.....you're aware that the French do not and never have practiced "multiculturalism"?

In addition, the last time mention of "muslims blocking off streets" came up, it was from a video produced by this mans news station
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Robertson_controversies

You'll find that kind of thing doesn't really meet the level required for serious consideration.

Memnoch

AlekSmart wrote: »

.

........and policy is one element that German administrations tend to be quite confident about unlike our own National attitude towards tiresome stuff like that,which facilitates small-time crooks to become Bankers,Regulators and even Heads of Governments....on an ongoing basis......:D

What are you talking about? Do you know that EVERY SINGLE immigrant, whether they are a doctor, or just a student, whether they have any criminal record or not are required to give their fingerprints in order to be allowed to stay here?

Can you imagine if every Irish person was told they had to give their fingerprints to the police, whether or not they had done anything wrong?

But hey, being an immigrant means you obviously give up the right to privacy and to not be treated like a potential criminal.

southsiderosie

Fo Real wrote: »

Most of you have completely misunderstood the argument. Allow me to lower myself to your level and explain it for you.

Multiculturalism does not equal assimilation.

Assimilation was the immigration policy in the USA - the "melting pot" - where everybody who turned up on American shores spoke English, played baseball, ate American food, wore Western clothes. They assimilated into American society. It was relatively successful if you ask me. You won't find gangs of Muslims blocking off streets in Washington DC as you see in Paris or London.

I agree that assimilation was the general policy in the US, but I don't think it played out the way you characterize it here.

As I said in the other thread on this topic, as long as people learned English and worked, they could be American. People still spoke their own languages at home, ate their own ethnic foods and lived in their own ethnic neighborhoods. Germans were the largest ethnic group in the US for most of the 19th century, and until WWI, German-language newspapers were quite common in most of the Midwest, and German was widely spoken. Languages tend to die off by the third generation though.

"American food" doesn't really mean much - the fact that pizza, tacos, and sausage (bratwurst, kielbasa, chorizo) are ubiquitous in the US is a testament to how American culture adapted to its newcomers, and not just vice-versa.

Finally, there may not be rioting today, but there were certainly plenty of riots during peak migration in the mid to late 19th century, and many of those riots invovled Irish people (the draft riots in New York, for example). Integration is a painful, long-term process, and it may all look rosy from the back end, but it was pretty difficult when it was in motion.

Fo Real wrote: »

Multiculturalism was the European policy of immigration, where there are many different cultures living side by side. Arabs dress in their native clothes, keep their native language, only speak and socialise with other Arabs and build a tall mosque in the centre of the city as a big "fúck you" gesture to the their host country. It is slowly being accepted that tolerance of these cultures has uterly failed. Sweden knows it, France knows it (good to see them banning religious dress from public life) and now Germany breaks its silence.

To go back to the American example, how do you think the Anglo-Dutch Protestant "old" stock of New York felt about the construction of St. Patrick's Cathedral in the middle of Manhattan? Or about the heavy concentration of Irish in parts of the West Side and Brooklyn - where they only went to Irish bars and socialized with Irish people? How do you think they saw feast day parades in Italian neighborhoods in Lower Manhattan? Or kosher butchers on the Lower East Side? Who do you think prohibition laws were aimed at?

There are a lot of parallels between how Europeans see the Muslim "menace" in the 21st century and how Americans saw the European "menace" in the 19th century. The only question now is, how will the European story pan out.

Memnoch

Fo Real wrote: »

Most of you have completely misunderstood the argument. Allow me to lower myself to your level and explain it for you.

Multiculturalism does not equal assimilation.

Assimilation was the immigration policy in the USA - the "melting pot" - where everybody who turned up on American shores spoke English, played baseball, ate American food, wore Western clothes. They assimilated into American society. It was relatively successful if you ask me. You won't find gangs of Muslims blocking off streets in Washington DC as you see in Paris or London.

Multiculturalism was the European policy of immigration, where there are many different cultures living side by side. Arabs dress in their native clothes, keep their native language, only speak and socialise with other Arabs and build a tall mosque in the centre of the city as a big "fúck you" gesture to the their host country. It is slowly being accepted that tolerance of these cultures has uterly failed. Sweden knows it, France knows it (good to see them banning religious dress from public life) and now Germany breaks its silence.

And the Irish are the last pople that I will listen to preach about the joys of multiculturalism. You can't even live side by side with Protestants up North. Instead you erect big Peace walls and vote for extremist governments, polarising society.

You do understand that Freedom of religion is a BIG constitutional issue in the USA? Do you have any idea how many mosques there are and how many muslims peacefully practise their faith?

There is no level here. Your post is full of gross generalisations and cliches.

jpfahy

Memnoch wrote: »

we learnt that a human being with a different colour of skin was really no different from us deep down

If you believe that the only difference between John Soap, a Nigerian immigrant arriving in Ireland, and John Soap, a native Irish person, is their skin colour then you are very naïve

Memnoch

jpfahy wrote: »

If you believe that the only difference between John Soap, a Nigerian immigrant arriving in Ireland, and John Soap, a native Irish person, is their skin colour then you are very naïve

Deep down, there is no difference. People are the same no matter where you go.

newmug

KeithAFC wrote: »

They are free to come to N.I any day.

No thanks, we have a special kind of "immigrant" there, who wont leave:mad:

Bottle_of_Smoke

Memnoch wrote: »

You do understand that Freedom of religion is a BIG constitutional issue in the USA? Do you have any idea how many mosques there are and how many muslims peacefully practise their faith?

There is no level here. Your post is full of gross generalisations and cliches.

American Muslims have historically been different to UK Muslims.

A lot of American Muslims were Iranians escaping Islamic extremism in the middle east so tended to be a relatively liberal bunch.

In the UK they're often descendents of immigrants from former British colonies

As far as I know American Muslims may have went to a Mosque on a friday but otherwise were typically American.

Memnoch

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

American Muslims have historically been different to UK Muslims.

A lot of American Muslims were Iranians escaping Islamic extremism in the middle east so tended to be a relatively liberal bunch.

In the UK they're often descendents of immigrants from former British colonies

As far as I know American Muslims may have went to a Mosque on a friday but otherwise were typically American.

So multiculturalism doesn't work, and where it does, it's not because Muslims can integrate as well into a society as any other group of immigrants that are at the brunt of a hostile and often discriminatory reception but because they are DIFFERENT Muslims, unlike OUR Muslims who obviously should not be tolerated in the same way.

southsiderosie

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

American Muslims have historically been different to UK Muslims.

A lot of American Muslims were Iranians escaping Islamic extremism in the middle east so tended to be a relatively liberal bunch.

In the UK they're often descendents of immigrants from former British colonies

As far as I know American Muslims may have went to a Mosque on a friday but otherwise were typically American.

"Typical Americans" are pretty religious though - far more so than your "typical European".

Memnoch

southsiderosie wrote: »

There are a lot of parallels between how Europeans see the Muslim "menace" in the 21st century and how Americans saw the European "menace" in the 19th century. The only question now is, how will the European story pan out.

But the Muslims of today are not at all like the Europeans of the 19th century. They are only interested in giving the finger to the west and hate western ideals and the way of life and want to force everyone to wear Burqas. How much terrorism did 19th century Europians commit? How many planes did they fly into buildings and how many children did they use as suicide bombers?

If we don't stop them they will take over and Islamisise everything.

It's not the same thing at all.

southsiderosie

Memnoch wrote: »

Deep down, there is no difference. People are the same no matter where you go.

I disagree with this. I think people are different. The issue is, can they respect each other's differences?

I think there has been a failure on both sides to do so in the case of a lot of European immigration. On the one hand, I think that European immigration policies have largely been a failure, and the state deserves a lot of blame, especially in Germany. And I think a lot of natives have been unwilling to treat immigrants and their children as fellow citizens - there are a lot of studies on job market and social discrimination that bear this out.

But I also think that if newcomers want natives to respect their right to wear hijab, they have to respect the rights of natives to go topless on the beach, marry their same-sex partners, or otherwise engage in whatever activities that they are allowed to under the law. In this sense, I see why the Dutch in particular are alarmed by Islamic militants and conservatives - the entire Dutch social system is built around the idea of "live and let live", and it took centuries of conflict to get to that point. And now it is all starting to unravel. I don't like Geert Wilders, but I do think that Pim Fortuyn was onto something.

southsiderosie

Memnoch wrote: »

But the Muslims of today are not at all like the Europeans of the 19th century. They are only interested in giving the finger to the west and hate western ideals and the way of life and want to force everyone to wear Burqas. How much terrorism did 19th century Europians commit? How many planes did they fly into buildings and how many children did they use as suicide bombers?

If we don't stop them they will take over and Islamisise everything.

It's not the same thing at all.

I think you are being overly dramatic. Not all Muslims hate the West or want to make women wear burqas. But the ones who seem to get all the media attention disproportionately think this way.

I would encourage you to read more on the history of US immigration in the 19th century if you think that Catholic immigrants were not seen as a scourge of papists out to destroy America and replace the president with the Pope. Kennedy had to deal with this issues in his presidential campaign - and that was in 1960.

Oh, and BTW, Europeans DID commit what were considered terrorist acts in the US and much of Latin America in the 19th and early 20th century - most radical anarchists were Italian or Spanish. Not to mention the fact that most organized crime in the US was controlled by Catholic immigrants and their children.

newmug

Multiculturalism will never work. Assimilation will. Multiculturalism keeps the barriers up and expects them to stay up unmolested, assimilation breaks them down, and levels all cultures. Everybody wants to be a rockstar in their own little world, hence there will always be competition, tribalism, territorial conflict etc. as long as the barriers are up.

AlekSmart

Memnoch posted....

What are you talking about? Do you know that EVERY SINGLE immigrant, whether they are a doctor, or just a student, whether they have any criminal record or not are required to give their fingerprints in order to be allowed to stay here?

Can you imagine if every Irish person was told they had to give their fingerprints to the police, whether or not they had done anything wrong?

But hey, being an immigrant means you obviously give up the right to privacy and to not be treated like a potential criminal.

I`m not particularly fazed by the Fingerprint ID requirement myself,nor would I expect any legitimate immigrant to be if they wished to be considered for lawful admission.

One of my South African colleagues was showing me his SA driving licence (recently renewed) and,gosh almighty,in addition to a nice photo it featured a bloody big thumbprint.

It appears that the SAPD now have scanners which read the print at roadside checkpoints as part of the SA Governments attempts to counter some serious criminal activity amongst elements of its population.

My colleague was quite cool about it,"I need the licence,sez he so what about it"?...

I`m not sure that there`s any correlation between being an Immigrant and a potential criminal ?

For sure we have serious problems with how our Societal framework appears to encourage and facilitate petty criminality whilst retaining the right to then appear shocked and surprised when that criminal trait suddenly manifests itself as a serious one.

senordingdong

newmug wrote: »

Multiculturalism will never work. Assimilation will. Multiculturalism keeps the barriers up and expects them to stay up unmolested, assimilation breaks them down, and levels all cultures. Everybody wants to be a rockstar in their own little world, hence there will always be competition, tribalism, territorial conflict etc. as long as the barriers are up.

I'm inclined to agree with this, I feel it's one or the other.

European governments took a softly softly approach to assimilation and no have multiculturalsim, which, as pointed out earlier, doesn't suit now that there is high unemployment.

peasant

newmug wrote: »

Multiculturalism will never work. Assimilation will. Multiculturalism keeps the barriers up and expects them to stay up unmolested, assimilation breaks them down, and levels all cultures.

I think on closer inspection you will find that most Eorpean countries are in themselves historically multi-cultural and have been so for quite a long time.
(Glaringly obvious example: GB ..what with the English, the Scots, the Welsh).
Some European countries even have trouble uniting their diverse cultures under one hat (see Spain, Belgium). Even the "indegenous" people are proud of their barriers and struggle to keep them up.

...so what would you "assimilate" these foreign immigrants to when there even isn't an established common denominator?

Unless of course we are talking about the Californication of Europe here?