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Multicultural society has failed
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southsiderosie wrote: »"Typical Americans" are pretty religious though - far more so than your "typical European".
Yeah maybe in the bible belt. The ones in ny/california etc aren't any more religious than typical europeansMemnoch wrote:So multiculturalism doesn't work, and where it does, it's not because Muslims can integrate as well into a society as any other group of immigrants that are at the brunt of a hostile and often discriminatory reception but because they are DIFFERENT Muslims, unlike OUR Muslims who obviously should not be tolerated in the same way.
I have to say it is something which I have not decided yet.
I have doubts about multiculturism being successful or workable. I think it may lead to segregated societies. Driving through some parts of London you would think you're in Karachi. Areas with people of South Asian descent only.
I don't like that myself, much prefer assimilation and Eastenders type mix of ethnicities0 -
southsiderosie wrote: »I think you are being overly dramatic. Not all Muslims hate the West or want to make women wear burqas. But the ones who seem to get all the media attention disproportionately think this way.
I would encourage you to read more on the history of US immigration in the 19th century if you think that Catholic immigrants were not seen as a scourge of papists out to destroy America and replace the president with the Pope. Kennedy had to deal with this issues in his presidential campaign - and that was in 1960.
Oh, and BTW, Europeans DID commit what were considered terrorist acts in the US and much of Latin America in the 19th and early 20th century - most radical anarchists were Italian or Spanish. Not to mention the fact that most organized crime in the US was controlled by Catholic immigrants and their children.
I was being sarcastic. Sorry if the tone of my post didn't make that clearer.0 -
southsiderosie wrote: »I disagree with this. I think people are different. The issue is, can they respect each other's differences?
Are they really? Is there really a difference in thinking deep down between say people who believe in traditional Muslim values and the Conservatives of America who espouse traditional Christian values? Or even those who espouse such values here?
There are differences in phenotype certainly, but these are primarily due to environmental reasons in my view. I think it's probably FAIR to say that the practise of Islam is a couple of centuries if not more, behind the practise of Christianity (in general) around the world. But that's not surprising considering many of the countries where Islam thrives were occupied for so long, still are and have supporting dictators. Slowly but surely, the religion and its practise will evolve as can be evidenced by the far more moderate practises of the vast majority of Muslims who live in secular democracies.But I also think that if newcomers want natives to respect their right to wear hijab, they have to respect the rights of natives to go topless on the beach, marry their same-sex partners, or otherwise engage in whatever activities that they are allowed to under the law. In this sense, I see why the Dutch in particular are alarmed by Islamic militants and conservatives - the entire Dutch social system is built around the idea of "live and let live", and it took centuries of conflict to get to that point. And now it is all starting to unravel. I don't like Geert Wilders, but I do think that Pim Fortuyn was onto something.
Like I said, people are the same. It's human nature. The natives feel threatened irrationally and have hostile sentiments towards those they fear as different from them who might alter or impact their way of life, a fear exploited and propagated by corrupt politicians. The visitors, finding themselves unwelcome or not really encouraged to integrate become more insular and traditional because it's the only safe thing they know.
I think most people completely misunderstand the idea of integration. Integration isn't telling people to speak english or "respect our customs." True integration is born by example. Treat people correctly, show them the value of our way of life, and the idea of mutual respect and this will osmose through. It's a LONG and SLOW process, but as I said, deep down people are the same.0 -
I think on closer inspection you will find that most Eorpean countries are in themselves historically multi-cultural and have been so for quite a long time.
(Glaringly obvious example: GB ..what with the English, the Scots, the Welsh).
Some European countries even have trouble uniting their diverse cultures under one hat (see Spain, Belgium). Even the "indegenous" people are proud of their barriers and struggle to keep them up.
...so what would you "assimilate" these foreign immigrants to when there even isn't an established common denominator?
Unless of course we are talking about the Californication of Europe here?
It's beautiful how many people ignore this.
That's because it's always been US vs THEM, only the US and THEM get constantly redefined but the patterns are the same.
First it was your village against their village.
Then it was your country, skin colour even sex. For a while it was Catholics against protestants. Now it's Christians against Muslims. In time it might be Religious vs Non-religious. (In many places it already is and in many, the above drivers are still big issues because humanity does not progress as a homogenous block.)
But it's always US vs THEM. People need that to be able to justify their sense of entitlement. A basic human instinct arising from selfishness born from the need to survive. It's quite biological and almost animalistic in a way.
US vs THEM, the breeding ground for all discrimination and the vast majority of human strife.
Eventually, when we make contact with extra-terrestrial intelligence, the paradigm will shift again, US vs THEM and all these past differences will become academics and history like those of our recent past.0 -
Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »Yeah maybe in the bible belt. The ones in ny/california etc aren't any more religious than typical europeans
I have to say it is something which I have not decided yet.
I have doubts about multiculturism being successful or workable. I think it may lead to segregated societies. Driving through some parts of London you would think you're in Karachi. Areas with people of South Asian descent only.
I don't like that myself, much prefer assimilation and Eastenders type mix of ethnicities
Not really. While there are extremists that skew the picture, if you look at the way the majority of Muslims behave in the west and their attitudes, it is nothing like the attitudes in some other countries.
The key is education. Educate, educate, educate and lead by example.
The world is a melting pot, we are one race and will be, whether we like it or not.0 -
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Jesus Christ, the loonies are out in force in this thread. :rolleyes:
I'm getting a little tired of your weakly veiled ad hominems. I'm not interested in derailing the thread into a discussion of the Fermi paradox, or the probabilities of intelligent life elsewhere in the universe.
If you aren't able to comprehend the point I was making with my analogy then I see no benefit in trying to explain it to you.0 -
.Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »Yeah maybe in the bible belt. The ones in ny/california etc aren't any more religious than typical europeans
There is more to New York than Manhattan, and there is more to California than San Francisco. Rick Warren is the pastor of one of the largest evangelical churches in the country, and it's located in...wait for it...California.
Not everyone in CA or NY is a secular liberal, and not everyone in the Deep South or the Midwest is a bible-thumping hick.0 -
I think on closer inspection you will find that most Eorpean countries are in themselves historically multi-cultural and have been so for quite a long time.
(Glaringly obvious example: GB ..what with the English, the Scots, the Welsh).
Some European countries even have trouble uniting their diverse cultures under one hat (see Spain, Belgium). Even the "indegenous" people are proud of their barriers and struggle to keep them up.
...so what would you "assimilate" these foreign immigrants to when there even isn't an established common denominator?
Unless of course we are talking about the Californication of Europe here?
This argument is spurious - the countries you point to all have nationalist of secession movements based on the lack of integration, despite centuries of common Statehood. So, therefore, it proves the failure of a integrationist model ( although there is a difference between a national and a ethnic group).
so if this is failing, the question is why continue with failed policies. Your argument defeats itself.0 -
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Most of you have completely misunderstood the argument. Allow me to lower myself to your level and explain it for you.
Multiculturalism does not equal assimilation.
Assimilation was the immigration policy in the USA - the "melting pot" - where everybody who turned up on American shores spoke English, played baseball, ate American food, wore Western clothes. They assimilated into American society. It was relatively successful if you ask me. You won't find gangs of Muslims blocking off streets in Washington DC as you see in Paris or London.
Multiculturalism was the European policy of immigration, where there are many different cultures living side by side. Arabs dress in their native clothes, keep their native language, only speak and socialise with other Arabs and build a tall mosque in the centre of the city as a big "fúck you" gesture to the their host country. It is slowly being accepted that tolerance of these cultures has uterly failed. Sweden knows it, France knows it (good to see them banning religious dress from public life) and now Germany breaks its silence.
And the Irish are the last pople that I will listen to preach about the joys of multiculturalism. You can't even live side by side with Protestants up North. Instead you erect big Peace walls and vote for extremist governments, polarising society.
Lol. Many major misunderstandings here.
Multi-culturalism as an ideology is an American ideology. Not one of the general population, but it arises in American Universities - along with identity politics - in the 60's. It is not an European thing. What happens in Europe is a failure to try and integrate people not driven by any ideology.
Blaming the "Irish" for northern Ireland - which is in the UK - is like blaming the blacks in America for segregation. It would be like someone in 1950 whining about how black people were racist segregationists who voted for black candidates, went to black churches, and shopped in black shops.
The problem in nothern Ireland is not the "Irish", segregation has been imposed by brute force by the people who consider themselve British.
In the Republic, we all just get along.0 -
Rabble Rabble wrote: »Lol. Many major misunderstandings here.
Multi-culturalism as an ideology is an American ideology. Not one of the general population, but it arises in American Universities - along with identity politics - in the 60's. It is not an European thing. What happens in Europe is a failure to try and integrate people not driven by any ideology.
Blaming the "Irish" for northern Ireland - which is in the UK - is like blaming the blacks in America for segregation. It would be like someone in 1950 whining about how black people were racist segregationists who voted for black candidates, went to black churches, and shopped in black shops.
The problem in nothern Ireland is not the "Irish", segregation has been imposed by brute force by the people who consider themselve British.
In the Republic, we all just get along.
Except the Nigerians and the Roma, of course.0 -
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I'd love to know hat irish culture there is for immigrants to assimilate to.
Also Irish people can set up their own strongholds; Woodlawn in New York, Kilburn in London, Bondi in Sydney, South Boston in Boston etc0 -
fontanalis wrote: »I'd love to know hat irish culture there is for immigrants to assimilate to.
Also Irish people can set up their own strongholds; Woodlawn in New York, Kilburn in London, Bondi in Sydney, South Boston in Boston etc
Two bogus arguments.
1) If Ireland has no real distinct culture but Western culture, then that is the culture to assimilate to. No non-cultural society will ever exist.
2) Argument du TuQue.0 -
Rabble Rabble wrote: »Two bogus arguments.
1) If Ireland has no real distinct culture but Western culture, then that is the culture to assimilate to. No non-cultural society will ever exist.
2) Argument du TuQue.
The first wasn't really an arguement, Western Culture is some monolithic block?
2. How? I'm just saying when it comes to immigration in Ireland some people have a very bad memory especially now that here will be another wave out of Ireland. Have you been to Woodlawn in New York? It's like they dropped part of Ireland in there, then again Irish people have a similar enough culture to Americans so there isn't a big clash.
For what it's worth, I think immigration and integration issues should always be on the term of the host country (language laws etc), but the term multi culturalism annoys me some times, there are aspects of other cultures that aren't compatible (see link below and I agree with that ruling) with Western European societies but sometimes it seems like some people see differences which have no impact on their life and think it's a threat.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/2390989/Muslim-woman-refused-French-citizenship-for-her-submissive-views.html0 -
fontanalis wrote: »The first wasn't really an arguement, Western Culture is some monolithic block?
2. How? I'm just saying when it comes to immigration in Ireland some people have a very bad memory especially now that here will be another wave out of Ireland. Have you been to Woodlawn in New York? It's like they dropped part of Ireland in there, then again Irish people have a similar enough culture to Americans so there isn't a big clash.
For what it's worth, I think immigration and integration issues should always be on the term of the host country (language laws etc), but the term multi culturalism annoys me some times, there are aspects of other cultures that aren't compatible (see link below and I agree with that ruling) with Western European societies but sometimes it seems like some people see differences which have no impact on their life and think it's a threat.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/2390989/Muslim-woman-refused-French-citizenship-for-her-submissive-views.html
Who says that western culture is a monolithic block, but that there is a version of it in Ireland which immigrants should assimilate to. This answered the question as to what culture Ireland had. Whatever the culture is, that is what people should assimilate to. ( which you later agree with).
Argument du tueQue means YouToo. Whataboutary. Its a weak argument. But I agree with the sentiment but not the argument: I think that Irish people ( of descent) in Scotland should not wave Irish flags at celtic matches, for instance.but sometimes it seems like some people see differences which have no impact on their life and think it's a threat.
I agree with that.0 -
+1 .Most of you have completely misunderstood the argument. Allow me to lower myself to your level and explain it for you.
Multiculturalism does not equal assimilation.
Assimilation was the immigration policy in the USA - the "melting pot" - where everybody who turned up on American shores spoke English, played baseball, ate American food, wore Western clothes. They assimilated into American society. It was relatively successful if you ask me. You won't find gangs of Muslims blocking off streets in Washington DC as you see in Paris or London.
Multiculturalism was the European policy of immigration, where there are many different cultures living side by side. Arabs dress in their native clothes, keep their native language, only speak and socialise with other Arabs and build a tall mosque in the centre of the city as a big "fúck you" gesture to the their host country. It is slowly being accepted that tolerance of these cultures has uterly failed. Sweden knows it, France knows it (good to see them banning religious dress from public life) and now Germany breaks its silence.
And the Irish are the last pople that I will listen to preach about the joys of multiculturalism. You can't even live side by side with Protestants up North. Instead you erect big Peace walls and vote for extremist governments, polarising society.0 -
I think on closer inspection you will find that most Eorpean countries are in themselves historically multi-cultural and have been so for quite a long time.(Glaringly obvious example: GB ..what with the English, the Scots, the Welsh).Even the "indegenous" people are proud of their barriers and struggle to keep them up....so what would you "assimilate" these foreign immigrants to when there even isn't an established common denominator?
Eh, the english just killed anybody who didnt hand over their possesions, drop their own language for english, and pay tax to the king. There was neither assimilation, integration, and especially not multiculturalism on the island of britian, or any of their colonies. Just thievery and murder.Don't kill us...:(
No, YOU please dont kill ME, or anyone else just for not wanting to be english. In fact, just gimmee back whats mine, and all will be forgiven. You can even stay here, you dont have to go to that country you wish you were from. Go on;)0 -
Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »I have doubts about multiculturism being successful or workable. I think it may lead to segregated societies. Driving through some parts of London you would think you're in Karachi. Areas with people of South Asian descent only.
So what's wrong with that exactly? In New York places like Chinatown and Little Italy are tourist destinations and very popular with most New Yorkers.
The reason multiculturalism doesn't work in some countries is simply down to ignorance, xenophobia and bigotry. When people actually put aside their fear and intolerance, they begin to realize that other cultures are actually a great benefit to any society. They broaden people's view of the world.
This country was bland and boring before the immigrants came. I dare say that most Dubliners appreciate the variety they see on the streets today, it's only the small minority who seem to have an issue. Unfortunately, it's this small minority who cause most of the problems. It's time people wake up, pull their heads out of their asses, and realize we share this planet with all sorts of people.
It's funny how quickly some Irish seem to forget our own history in England and the U.S. "No blacks, no dogs, no Irish"...remember that one? Of all the countries in Europe, I would have thought we'd be the first to accept immigrants and the cultures they bring with them.0 -
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PanchoVilla wrote: »So what's wrong with that exactly? In New York places like Chinatown and Little Italy are tourist destinations and very popular with most New Yorkers.
Yes, but that is how they are seen today. That is not how they were viewed 100 years ago, when immigration was in full swing.0 -
Germany is to introduce ID cards for non-citizen immigrants (like me!) for the first time (probably since the war) in 2011. I can't wait! As it stands, I have to bring my passport as prooof of ID to many places (like the post office for example) and it gets tatty quickly when it's used as a general form of ID. Because all German citizens are issued with "proper" (almost) credit card sized ID, it is commonly requested when completing certain transactions (especially when using a credit card).Memnoch posted....
I`m not particularly fazed by the Fingerprint ID requirement myself,nor would I expect any legitimate immigrant to be if they wished to be considered for lawful admission.
One of my South African colleagues was showing me his SA driving licence (recently renewed) and,gosh almighty,in addition to a nice photo it featured a bloody big thumbprint.
It appears that the SAPD now have scanners which read the print at roadside checkpoints as part of the SA Governments attempts to counter some serious criminal activity amongst elements of its population.
My colleague was quite cool about it,"I need the licence,sez he so what about it"?...
I`m not sure that there`s any correlation between being an Immigrant and a potential criminal ?
For sure we have serious problems with how our Societal framework appears to encourage and facilitate petty criminality whilst retaining the right to then appear shocked and surprised when that criminal trait suddenly manifests itself as a serious one.
I look forward to being able to identify myself to the post office etc. without having to resort to my passport. If Ireland had a standard "EU" type ID I'm sure it would also be accepted in Germany, but we don't have such novel ideas. Btw, the new German ID will contain my fingerprints in a chip embedded in the card. Am I worried? Why should I be? It will hopefully prevent the thirf who steals my wallet some day from running up a nice debt on my credit card!
I also look forward to my driving licence expiring next year and being able to avail of a German credit card type instead of the small pamphlet "thing" which is often sniggered at by car rental places who think such licences went out with black and white TV, not in Ireland!!
Edit: As regards language learning, well I feel quite strongly about that...ALL immigrants should have to learn the host language, but I have no problem with them keeping their own and passing it on to their kids. There should be no bending over backwards to accomodate minorities in this regard. It's an expensive waste of valuable resources and encourages laziness. The Germans have made this mistake IMO: For heaven's sake, here in Berlin you can find signage in Turkish at the entrances to parks and green areas. Why should this be done? There's no signs in English for the likes of me though I don't need them: I bothered my arse to learn German. I think people should respect their host country more than their host country should have to respect their cultutal identity or whatever. I accept 100% that I am an immigrant here and I accept German ways. Why should an immigrant to Ireland be any different? (having said that, I hope the next generation of immigrants to the septic isle use their vote and question our corrupt and shoddy political system.0 -
PanchoVilla wrote: »The reason multiculturalism doesn't work in some countries is simply down to ignorance, xenophobia and bigotry. When people actually put aside their fear and intolerance, they begin to realize that other cultures are actually a great benefit to any society. They broaden people's view of the world.
Wow, I never knew the problem was that simple. Quick, ring Angela Merkel and tell her you have the solution and that she is ignorant, xenophobic and a bigot.
It has nothing to do with the fact that some cultures just cannot co-exist:
European tolerance of homosexuals Vs Islamic "kill them all"
European equality for women Vs some Asian forced marriages
African genital mutilation
etc...
Now enlighten me: what benefits exactly do Muslims and Nigerians bring to Ireland?0 -
Wow, I never knew the (.......)benefits exactly do Muslims and Nigerians bring to Ireland?
So its out with the racial and sectarian stereotypes, is it?
I'd imagine Angela could be rung and asked if she thinks Germanys attitude towards granting citizenship had anything to do with the problem as she sees it.....0 -
I think it has less to do with that than the failure of many immigrants to learn German (despite courses being massively subsidised or provided free of cost for those with no funds) and to adopt some German ways.So its out with the racial and sectarian stereotypes, is it?
I'd imagine Angela could be rung and asked if she thinks Germanys attitude towards granting citizenship had anything to do with the problem as she sees it.....
Germany is a country steeped in tradition. It is a teutonic country, where, in general, things are done "correctly" (why do you think Germany has 90% of the luxury car market? because they have a slapdash attitude to things?). Many Irish fail to integrate here because they want to keep their "a shur'n it'll do grand" attitude to things, which just doesn't cut the mustard. Same goes for Turkish immigrants no doubt.
Would a westerner expect to move to a middle eastern state and just "carry on as before"? You're damn right you wouldn't. Those Islamic states have their traditions too, and I would respect them as that is how the people there wish to live, likewise when a citizen of an Islamic state moves to Germany etc. they should respect the culture of the host nation, it's just respect really.
Btw, Germany is a big place. The level of success of assimilation/integration whatever varies greatly from state to state. In Berlin I would say it has been unsuccessful in general. However in Cologne I think it has been quite good.0 -
I think it has less to do with that than the failure of many immigrants to learn German (despite courses being massively subsidised or provided free of cost for those with no funds) and to adopt some German ways.
Germany is a country steeped in tradition. It is a teutonic country, where, in general, things are done "correctly" (why do you think Germany has 90% of the luxury car market? because they have a slapdash attitude to things?). Many Irish fail to integrate here because they want to keep their "a shur'n it'll do grand" attitude to things, which just doesn't cut the mustard. Same goes for Turkish immigrants no doubt.
Would a westerner expect to move to a middle eastern state and just "carry on as before"? You're damn right you wouldn't. Those Islamic states have their traditions too, and I would respect them as that is how the people there wish to live, likewise when a citizen of an Islamic state moves to Germany etc. they should respect the culture of the host nation, it's just respect really.
Btw, Germany is a big place. The level of success of assimilation/integration whatever varies greatly from state to state. In Berlin I would say it has been unsuccessful in general. However in Cologne I think it has been quite good.
O I don't doubt theres two sides to it.0 -
Wow, I never knew the problem was that simple. Quick, ring Angela Merkel and tell her you have the solution and that she is ignorant, xenophobic and a bigot.
I'm sure she's aware of that fact already.It has nothing to do with the fact that some cultures just cannot co-exist:
European tolerance of homosexuals Vs Islamic "kill them all"
The majority of Muslims do not support Islamic fundamentalism and extremism. In the last 100 years, how many Muslim countries have invaded another country and carpet bombed it into submission? How many western countries have done this? Perhaps the invasion of the Middle East since WW2 has something to do with this fundamentalism?European equality for women Vs some Asian forced marriages
Forced marriages are decreasing in Europe thanks to multiculturalism. Asians living in Europe and the U.S. are realizing that women have the right to choose who they marry. Multiculturalism doesn't just benefit the host country, it also benefits the immigrants living in that country by showing them an alternative and giving them a choice.African genital mutilation
Is that anything like circumcision?Now enlighten me: what benefits exactly do Muslims and Nigerians bring to Ireland?
Well first of all, Muslims come from many different countries with many different cultures. They benefit Irish society by showing us a different culture to our own. They share their music, food, recreational activities, religious beliefs and practices, etc. They open Irish culture up to a variety of alternatives. Muslims don't drink, which is something the Irish could learn a great deal from.0 -
I just have one question for those opposed to multiculturalism. How does it negatively impact your life on a personal level?
I'm trying to put myself in your shoes and I can't think of one reason why it would have a negative impact on my lifestyle.0 -
PanchoVilla wrote: »I just have one question for those opposed to multiculturalism. How does it negatively impact your life on a personal level?
I'm trying to put myself in your shoes and I can't think of one reason why it would have a negative impact on my lifestyle.
My question would be, what exactly do they mean by multiculturalism?
Multiculturalism =/= assimilation =/= integration
The way it is being used in this thread by the "anti" crowd, it seems that multiculturalism = immigration.0 -
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PanchoVilla wrote: »The majority of Muslims do not support Islamic fundamentalism and extremism. In the last 100 years, how many Muslim countries have invaded another country and carpet bombed it into submission? How many western countries have done this? Perhaps the invasion of the Middle East since WW2 has something to do with this fundamentalism?
Hatred of homosexuals is not something relegated to extremists - it's part of mainstream Islam.
And believe me - the Muslims would carpet bomb the West if they had a chance. This is why we must stop Iran getting hold of nuclear weapons at all costs. They've already tried attacking us with their cowardly terrorist attacks on Western civilians in New York, Madrid, London.....Forced marriages are decreasing in Europe thanks to multiculturalism. Asians living in Europe and the U.S. are realizing that women have the right to choose who they marry. Multiculturalism doesn't just benefit the host country, it also benefits the immigrants living in that country by showing them an alternative and giving them a choice.
Source? Too often I read about honour killings in Indian and Pakistani communities in the West because some girl decided she didn't want to marry her 60 year old uncle. These immigrants will not bring their primitive mating rituals to the my country, if I have a say in it.Is that anything like circumcision?
It's an extremely barbaric practice imposed on young African girls and is the basis for many claims of asylum to Europe (whether their stories are fabricated or not is another story. Are we really going to ask them to drop their panties and give us a look?)Well first of all, Muslims come from many different countries with many different cultures. They benefit Irish society by showing us a different culture to our own. They share their music, food, recreational activities, religious beliefs and practices, etc. They open Irish culture up to a variety of alternatives. Muslims don't drink, which is something the Irish could learn a great deal from.
I'm quite aware of Islamic culture, thanks. Personally I much prefer the rich history of Europe that makes us the number one tourist destination on the planet - Italian art, French cuisine, Spanish dancing, Irish trad music etc I'd be interested to hear how many tourists annually visit the bland sand pit that is the Middle East.0
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