Multicultural society has failed

southsiderosie

PanchoVilla wrote: »

So what's wrong with that exactly? In New York places like Chinatown and Little Italy are tourist destinations and very popular with most New Yorkers.

Yes, but that is how they are seen today. That is not how they were viewed 100 years ago, when immigration was in full swing.

murphaph

AlekSmart wrote: »

Memnoch posted....

I`m not particularly fazed by the Fingerprint ID requirement myself,nor would I expect any legitimate immigrant to be if they wished to be considered for lawful admission.

One of my South African colleagues was showing me his SA driving licence (recently renewed) and,gosh almighty,in addition to a nice photo it featured a bloody big thumbprint.

It appears that the SAPD now have scanners which read the print at roadside checkpoints as part of the SA Governments attempts to counter some serious criminal activity amongst elements of its population.

My colleague was quite cool about it,"I need the licence,sez he so what about it"?...

I`m not sure that there`s any correlation between being an Immigrant and a potential criminal ?

For sure we have serious problems with how our Societal framework appears to encourage and facilitate petty criminality whilst retaining the right to then appear shocked and surprised when that criminal trait suddenly manifests itself as a serious one.

Germany is to introduce ID cards for non-citizen immigrants (like me!) for the first time (probably since the war) in 2011. I can't wait! As it stands, I have to bring my passport as prooof of ID to many places (like the post office for example) and it gets tatty quickly when it's used as a general form of ID. Because all German citizens are issued with "proper" (almost) credit card sized ID, it is commonly requested when completing certain transactions (especially when using a credit card).

I look forward to being able to identify myself to the post office etc. without having to resort to my passport. If Ireland had a standard "EU" type ID I'm sure it would also be accepted in Germany, but we don't have such novel ideas. Btw, the new German ID will contain my fingerprints in a chip embedded in the card. Am I worried? Why should I be? It will hopefully prevent the thirf who steals my wallet some day from running up a nice debt on my credit card!

I also look forward to my driving licence expiring next year and being able to avail of a German credit card type instead of the small pamphlet "thing" which is often sniggered at by car rental places who think such licences went out with black and white TV, not in Ireland!!

Edit: As regards language learning, well I feel quite strongly about that...ALL immigrants should have to learn the host language, but I have no problem with them keeping their own and passing it on to their kids. There should be no bending over backwards to accomodate minorities in this regard. It's an expensive waste of valuable resources and encourages laziness. The Germans have made this mistake IMO: For heaven's sake, here in Berlin you can find signage in Turkish at the entrances to parks and green areas. Why should this be done? There's no signs in English for the likes of me though I don't need them: I bothered my arse to learn German. I think people should respect their host country more than their host country should have to respect their cultutal identity or whatever. I accept 100% that I am an immigrant here and I accept German ways. Why should an immigrant to Ireland be any different? (having said that, I hope the next generation of immigrants to the septic isle use their vote and question our corrupt and shoddy political system.

Fo Real

PanchoVilla wrote: »

The reason multiculturalism doesn't work in some countries is simply down to ignorance, xenophobia and bigotry. When people actually put aside their fear and intolerance, they begin to realize that other cultures are actually a great benefit to any society. They broaden people's view of the world.

Wow, I never knew the problem was that simple. Quick, ring Angela Merkel and tell her you have the solution and that she is ignorant, xenophobic and a bigot.

It has nothing to do with the fact that some cultures just cannot co-exist:
European tolerance of homosexuals Vs Islamic "kill them all"
European equality for women Vs some Asian forced marriages
African genital mutilation
etc...

Now enlighten me: what benefits exactly do Muslims and Nigerians bring to Ireland?

Nodin

Fo Real wrote: »

Wow, I never knew the (.......)benefits exactly do Muslims and Nigerians bring to Ireland?

So its out with the racial and sectarian stereotypes, is it?

I'd imagine Angela could be rung and asked if she thinks Germanys attitude towards granting citizenship had anything to do with the problem as she sees it.....

murphaph

Nodin wrote: »

So its out with the racial and sectarian stereotypes, is it?

I'd imagine Angela could be rung and asked if she thinks Germanys attitude towards granting citizenship had anything to do with the problem as she sees it.....

I think it has less to do with that than the failure of many immigrants to learn German (despite courses being massively subsidised or provided free of cost for those with no funds) and to adopt some German ways.

Germany is a country steeped in tradition. It is a teutonic country, where, in general, things are done "correctly" (why do you think Germany has 90% of the luxury car market? because they have a slapdash attitude to things?). Many Irish fail to integrate here because they want to keep their "a shur'n it'll do grand" attitude to things, which just doesn't cut the mustard. Same goes for Turkish immigrants no doubt.

Would a westerner expect to move to a middle eastern state and just "carry on as before"? You're damn right you wouldn't. Those Islamic states have their traditions too, and I would respect them as that is how the people there wish to live, likewise when a citizen of an Islamic state moves to Germany etc. they should respect the culture of the host nation, it's just respect really.

Btw, Germany is a big place. The level of success of assimilation/integration whatever varies greatly from state to state. In Berlin I would say it has been unsuccessful in general. However in Cologne I think it has been quite good.

Nodin

murphaph wrote: »

I think it has less to do with that than the failure of many immigrants to learn German (despite courses being massively subsidised or provided free of cost for those with no funds) and to adopt some German ways.

Germany is a country steeped in tradition. It is a teutonic country, where, in general, things are done "correctly" (why do you think Germany has 90% of the luxury car market? because they have a slapdash attitude to things?). Many Irish fail to integrate here because they want to keep their "a shur'n it'll do grand" attitude to things, which just doesn't cut the mustard. Same goes for Turkish immigrants no doubt.

Would a westerner expect to move to a middle eastern state and just "carry on as before"? You're damn right you wouldn't. Those Islamic states have their traditions too, and I would respect them as that is how the people there wish to live, likewise when a citizen of an Islamic state moves to Germany etc. they should respect the culture of the host nation, it's just respect really.

Btw, Germany is a big place. The level of success of assimilation/integration whatever varies greatly from state to state. In Berlin I would say it has been unsuccessful in general. However in Cologne I think it has been quite good.

O I don't doubt theres two sides to it.

PanchoVilla

Fo Real wrote: »

Wow, I never knew the problem was that simple. Quick, ring Angela Merkel and tell her you have the solution and that she is ignorant, xenophobic and a bigot.

I'm sure she's aware of that fact already.

It has nothing to do with the fact that some cultures just cannot co-exist:
European tolerance of homosexuals Vs Islamic "kill them all"

The majority of Muslims do not support Islamic fundamentalism and extremism. In the last 100 years, how many Muslim countries have invaded another country and carpet bombed it into submission? How many western countries have done this? Perhaps the invasion of the Middle East since WW2 has something to do with this fundamentalism?

European equality for women Vs some Asian forced marriages

Forced marriages are decreasing in Europe thanks to multiculturalism. Asians living in Europe and the U.S. are realizing that women have the right to choose who they marry. Multiculturalism doesn't just benefit the host country, it also benefits the immigrants living in that country by showing them an alternative and giving them a choice.

African genital mutilation

Is that anything like circumcision?

Now enlighten me: what benefits exactly do Muslims and Nigerians bring to Ireland?

Well first of all, Muslims come from many different countries with many different cultures. They benefit Irish society by showing us a different culture to our own. They share their music, food, recreational activities, religious beliefs and practices, etc. They open Irish culture up to a variety of alternatives. Muslims don't drink, which is something the Irish could learn a great deal from.

PanchoVilla

I just have one question for those opposed to multiculturalism. How does it negatively impact your life on a personal level?

I'm trying to put myself in your shoes and I can't think of one reason why it would have a negative impact on my lifestyle.

southsiderosie

PanchoVilla wrote: »

I just have one question for those opposed to multiculturalism. How does it negatively impact your life on a personal level?

I'm trying to put myself in your shoes and I can't think of one reason why it would have a negative impact on my lifestyle.

My question would be, what exactly do they mean by multiculturalism?

Multiculturalism =/= assimilation =/= integration

The way it is being used in this thread by the "anti" crowd, it seems that multiculturalism = immigration.

Fo Real

PanchoVilla wrote: »

The majority of Muslims do not support Islamic fundamentalism and extremism. In the last 100 years, how many Muslim countries have invaded another country and carpet bombed it into submission? How many western countries have done this? Perhaps the invasion of the Middle East since WW2 has something to do with this fundamentalism?

Hatred of homosexuals is not something relegated to extremists - it's part of mainstream Islam.
And believe me - the Muslims would carpet bomb the West if they had a chance. This is why we must stop Iran getting hold of nuclear weapons at all costs. They've already tried attacking us with their cowardly terrorist attacks on Western civilians in New York, Madrid, London.....

Forced marriages are decreasing in Europe thanks to multiculturalism. Asians living in Europe and the U.S. are realizing that women have the right to choose who they marry. Multiculturalism doesn't just benefit the host country, it also benefits the immigrants living in that country by showing them an alternative and giving them a choice.

Source? Too often I read about honour killings in Indian and Pakistani communities in the West because some girl decided she didn't want to marry her 60 year old uncle. These immigrants will not bring their primitive mating rituals to the my country, if I have a say in it.

Is that anything like circumcision?

It's an extremely barbaric practice imposed on young African girls and is the basis for many claims of asylum to Europe (whether their stories are fabricated or not is another story. Are we really going to ask them to drop their panties and give us a look?)

Well first of all, Muslims come from many different countries with many different cultures. They benefit Irish society by showing us a different culture to our own. They share their music, food, recreational activities, religious beliefs and practices, etc. They open Irish culture up to a variety of alternatives. Muslims don't drink, which is something the Irish could learn a great deal from.

I'm quite aware of Islamic culture, thanks. Personally I much prefer the rich history of Europe that makes us the number one tourist destination on the planet - Italian art, French cuisine, Spanish dancing, Irish trad music etc I'd be interested to hear how many tourists annually visit the bland sand pit that is the Middle East.

charlemont

my street is very multicultural , although most of us are poor here its our own that damage cars, wreck apartments, steal and take heroin , the immigrants here are mainly good people, they never cause any hassle here..

PanchoVilla

Fo Real wrote: »

Hatred of homosexuals is not something relegated to extremists - it's part of mainstream Islam.

As it is with Christianity (Catholic Church especially) and Judaism. Islam does not hold the monopoly on homophobia.

And believe me - the Muslims would carpet bomb the West if they had a chance. This is why we must stop Iran getting hold of nuclear weapons at all costs. They've already tried attacking us with their cowardly terrorist attacks on Western civilians in New York, Madrid, London.....

Saudi Arabia has a massive military and they are the most extreme Islamic state in the world (beheadings, stoning, amputations, complete lack of women's rights). Saudi also has a large stockpile of WMDs. Strangely enough, they are very close allies with the U.S. and Europe. Iran, on the other hand, is a fairly moderate Islamic state with no WMDs but is considered the greatest threat to the west. Why is that I wonder? Your statement just doesn't make any sense in that light.

Source? Too often I read about honour killings in Indian and Pakistani communities in the West because some girl decided she didn't want to marry her 60 year old uncle. These immigrants will not bring their primitive mating rituals to the my country, if I have a say in it.

You have a source for all these honor killings in the west? And how exactly does any of that impact your life whatsoever? You're not the one being forced to marry your 60-year old uncle. By the way, forced marriage was very common in Europe up until the 20th century. Do you know what a dowry is?

It's an extremely barbaric practice imposed on young African girls and is the basis for many claims of asylum to Europe (whether their stories are fabricated or not is another story. Are we really going to ask them to drop their panties and give us a look?)

My point was that female genital mutilation is somehow seen as barbaric when circumcision is widely accepted in the west. In the U.S., it is even encouraged by doctors. Something like 90% or more of the male population are circumcised. So it's ok to mutilate boys but not girls? How about we don't mutilate anyone?

I'm quite aware of Islamic culture, thanks. Personally I much prefer the rich history of Europe that makes us the number one tourist destination on the planet - Italian art, French cuisine, Spanish dancing, Irish trad music etc I'd be interested to hear how many tourists annually visit the bland sand pit that is the Middle East.

Bland sandpit? You mean like Dubai? Damascus? Jerusalem? Tehran? Your personal preferences are your own. I appreciate all sorts of cultures from around the world, especially music. African music is incredible, as is Arabic and Persian music. Nobody is forcing you to share these cultures, and you have no right to deny access to them for me.

charlemont

Fo real = fo fake.... thats the biggest pile of crap iv read all day, im sure my muslim neighbours are plotting right now to kill me, i must go hide now , i think they are coming....

same anglo saxon viewpoint that demonised the irish for centuries...

Nodin

Fo Real wrote: »

And believe me - the Muslims would carpet bomb the West if they had a chance..

"the Muslims"...all of them? Some of them? A random number chosen by lottery....?

Fo Real wrote: »

This is why we must stop Iran getting hold of nuclear weapons at all costs. They've already tried attacking us with their cowardly terrorist
attacks on Western civilians in New York, Madrid, London...

So Shia Iran and Sunni Jihadis are the same thing now...?

Fo Real wrote: »

Source? Too often I read about honour killings in Indian and Pakistani communities in the West because some girl decided she didn't want to marry her 60 year old uncle. These immigrants will not bring their primitive mating rituals to the my country, if I have a say in it.

A minority do this kind of thing and its obviously entirely illegal already. I'd suggest you're once more getting het up over nothing.

Fo Real wrote: »

I'm quite aware of Islamic culture, thanks. Personally I much prefer the rich history of Europe that makes us the number one tourist destination on the planet - Italian art, French cuisine, Spanish dancing, Irish trad music etc I'd be interested to hear how many tourists annually visit the bland sand pit that is the Middle East.

I'd suggest your racism is showing again.

Islam and the middle east are not the same thing, btw.

Spanish dancing - Flamenco - has much of its origins in North African Moorish traditions.

senordingdong

charlemont wrote: »

my street is very multicultural , although most of us are poor here its our own that damage cars, wreck apartments, steal and take heroin , the immigrants here are mainly good people, they never cause any hassle here..

As is the case in alot of areas.
But in the same way that we can't associate crime with ethnicity, we can't associate innocence with it either.

Memnoch

senordingdong wrote: »

As is the case in alot of areas.
But in the same way that we can't associate crime with ethnicity, we can't associate innocence with it either.

This makes no sense. You don't associate innocence. EVERYONE is innocent until they as INDIVIDUALS do something to be considered guilty of crime.

Total logic fail in this post.

KeithAFC

newmug wrote: »

Eh, the english just killed anybody who didnt hand over their possesions, drop their own language for english, and pay tax to the king. There was neither assimilation, integration, and especially not multiculturalism on the island of britian, or any of their colonies. Just thievery and murder.




No, YOU please dont kill ME, or anyone else just for not wanting to be english. In fact, just gimmee back whats mine, and all will be forgiven. You can even stay here, you dont have to go to that country you wish you were from. Go on;)

English? Im an Ulster scot who lives in Ulster.

charlemont

KeithAFC wrote: »

English? Im an Ulster scot who lives in Ulster.

the average normal people of these islands live day to day with each other, work with each other and intermarry etc.. its only those who have an interest in keeping us apart, stir ****e that keeps us apart as in ulster , its only political differences at the end of the day...

Jonny7

I can't speak for Germany as I haven't been there much, but I feel here (in Belgium) that the government needs to do a lot more to reach out to these people (the immigrants that do not want to integrate)

Its getting quite serious and its very visible on the streets. There is an undercurrent of resentment (against certain groups) building up and that resentment and attitude is fuelling a downward spiral of relations between the various groups.

Some cultures just seem destined never to be compatible.

I am actually getting quite racist against certain groups as a result of my experiences here. I can understand how the Germans are getting riled up by seeing certain groups just constantly abusing the system for free handouts and making zero attempt to integrate. Maybe in 200 years we'll all live in perfect harmony as we reach a zenith of understanding and tolerance, but for now it just isn't happening fast enough.

Wonder if the PC brigade will savage me now even though I am a lefty

dan_d

Have to agree with the last poster...having spent a lot of time in France I notice that there is a lot of serious society divides there...though they may not be the best example.Even here in Ireland though, there are certain communities that make very little effort....I've worked with Chinese people who have absolutely no english and won't learn and the same for eastern europeans.I notice the Polish seem to be quite good at picking up the language and integrating here a bit, but some others -Hungarian, Romanian etc just don't.My work background was a building site, where you really see it..
I notice again this morning there are terror threats for France due to the banning of the Burqa.I am not going to debate the ins and outs of that, but it feeds into angela merkel's speech.....integration is a major problem. And it would appear that extremist muslims now take the tack of bombing whoever looks crooked at them. Which certainly does not help the case.

Bottle_of_Smoke

PanchoVilla wrote: »

So what's wrong with that exactly? In New York places like Chinatown and Little Italy are tourist destinations and very popular with most New Yorkers.

Segregation breeds mistrust.

I gave you the answer to that in that very post so I think you're looking to find offence

bottle_of_smoke wrote:

I don't like that myself, much prefer assimilation and Eastenders type mix of ethnicities

The reason multiculturalism doesn't work in some countries is simply down to ignorance, xenophobia and bigotry. When people actually put aside their fear and intolerance, they begin to realize that other cultures are actually a great benefit to any society. They broaden people's view of the world.

Thats all very nice but its unrealistic and unworkable. And it doesn't work without problems in most countries

This country was bland and boring before the immigrants came. I dare say that most Dubliners appreciate the variety they see on the streets today, it's only the small minority who seem to have an issue. Unfortunately, it's this small minority who cause most of the problems. It's time people wake up, pull their heads out of their asses, and realize we share this planet with all sorts of people.

It's funny how quickly some Irish seem to forget our own history in England and the U.S. "No blacks, no dogs, no Irish"...remember that one? Of all the countries in Europe, I would have thought we'd be the first to accept immigrants and the cultures they bring with them.

Really how could you have taken that I don't want foreigners after I actually spelled out that I'd like to see a mix of ethnicities assimilating? I think you just saw the comment about areas in London and ignored the context

wes

A country that never really tried Multi-culturalism, declaring it dead is a bit of a laugh. The German government has to realise integration is a 2 way street, and that they have to do there part, which they haven't ever really done. Don't get me wrong, the immigrants have to play there part as well, but seeing as that until very recently Germany didn't bother playing there role at all, its a bit crappy of them to just blame the immigrants, when there as much to blame.

southsiderosie

Jonny7 wrote: »

I can't speak for Germany as I haven't been there much, but I feel here (in Belgium) that the government needs to do a lot more to reach out to these people (the immigrants that do not want to integrate)

Its getting quite serious and its very visible on the streets. There is an undercurrent of resentment (against certain groups) building up and that resentment and attitude is fuelling a downward spiral of relations between the various groups.

Some cultures just seem destined never to be compatible.

I am actually getting quite racist against certain groups as a result of my experiences here. I can understand how the Germans are getting riled up by seeing certain groups just constantly abusing the system for free handouts and making zero attempt to integrate. Maybe in 200 years we'll all live in perfect harmony as we reach a zenith of understanding and tolerance, but for now it just isn't happening fast enough.

Wonder if the PC brigade will savage me now even though I am a lefty

The last time I went to Belgium, I passed a building where there were groups of young Moroccan men sitting out front (it was a Friday night, and they were just hanging out). One of them asked me something in Spanish, and we started chatting. Turns out that they had been working in Spain before, but had relocated to Belgium...and absolutely hated it. They felt constantly looked down upon, and frankly thought the Belgians treated them like ****.

Now all of these men worked, they spoke French (and Spanish and Arabic, and one guy Catalan as well), and they were legally in the EU. In other words, they were basically holding up their end of the social contract. And yet, native Belgians still rejected them, both socially and economically. Is it any wonder that people become bitter over time? The first generation will suck it up, because they know that at the end of the day, life in an unwelcoming Belgium (or Germany) is better than life in a poverty-stricken village in Morocco or Turkey. But their European-born children do not have that perspective, and have much higher expectations about their place in society...until they hit 22 and nobody will hire them or rent an apartment to them even though they were born there, speak the language, and have a degree (if they haven't been 'tracked' into a lower career path, that is). And that's where the trouble starts.

Bottle_of_Smoke

wes wrote: »

A country that never really tried Multi-culturalism, declaring it dead is a bit of a laugh. The German government has to realise integration is a 2 way street, and that they have to do there part, which they haven't ever really done. Don't get me wrong, the immigrants have to play there part as well, but seeing as that until very recently Germany didn't bother playing there role at all, its a bit crappy of them to just blame the immigrants, when there as much to blame.

This is a genuine question and not meant as a rebuttal but what do you think the German government should have done?

Also IIRC you are Irish of Asian descent? Do you think the Irish government is currently doing enough to assist integration here?

Bottle_of_Smoke

southsiderosie wrote: »

The last time I went to Belgium, I passed a building where there were groups of young Moroccan men sitting out front (it was a Friday night, and they were just hanging out). One of them asked me something in Spanish, and we started chatting. Turns out that they had been working in Spain before, but had relocated to Belgium...and absolutely hated it. They felt constantly looked down upon, and frankly thought the Belgians treated them like ****.

Now all of these men worked, they spoke French (and Spanish and Arabic, and one guy Catalan as well), and they were legally in the EU. In other words, they were basically holding up their end of the social contract. And yet, native Belgians still rejected them, both socially and economically. Is it any wonder that people become bitter over time? The first generation will suck it up, because they know that at the end of the day, life in an unwelcoming Belgium (or Germany) is better than life in a poverty-stricken village in Morocco or Turkey. But their European-born children do not have that perspective, and have much higher expectations about their place in society...until they hit 22 and nobody will hire them or rent an apartment to them even though they were born there, speak the language, and have a degree (if they haven't been 'tracked' into a lower career path, that is). And that's where the trouble starts.

That's a good point there about 1st generation expecting discrimination but not second generation.

In a sense I think that is an argument against multiculturism and for assimilation though. If segregation is allowed through multi-culturism there is always going to be discrimination.

The problem then is that if the government implements assimilation measures they will be accused of Islamophobia or failing to respect parents rights.

wes

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

This is a genuine question and not meant as a rebuttal but what do you think the German government should have done?

Enact policies that give people a fair chance (same as everyone else) at housing and jobs. If people have equal access to housing and jobs, they will integrate on there own.

If they can't, then why bother learning the language or getting educated, if you will never be accepted? If people see people with education being accepted and successful, they will follow suit.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Also IIRC you are Irish of Asian descent?

Yes.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Do you think the Irish government is currently doing enough to assist integration here?

To the best of my knowledge, the job and housing situation is much better here. I haven't much more trouble getting jobs etc than anyone else. So I think there doing a far better job than Germany.

southsiderosie

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

That's a good point there about 1st generation expecting discrimination but not second generation.

In a sense I think that is an argument against multiculturism and for assimilation though. If segregation is allowed through multi-culturism there is always going to be discrimination.

The problem then is that if the government implements assimilation measures they will be accused of Islamophobia or failing to respect parents rights.

How then are you defining multiculturalism versus assimilation? Because I don't think that's the argument at all. Instead, I see it as an argument that governments need to do more to make sure both immigrants and natives hold up their ends of the social contract. The problem there is that it is very difficult to do in the area of employment and housing without strong anti-discrimination laws, which non-minorities tend to get huffy about.

Bottle_of_Smoke

wes wrote: »

Enact policies that give people a fair chance (same as everyone else) at housing and jobs. If people have equal access to housing and jobs, they will integrate on there own.

If they can't, then why bother learning the language or getting educated, if you will never be accepted? If people see people with education being accepted and successful, they will follow suit.

Yeah true enough would agree with this. Perhaps monitoring of background of employees like in Northern Ireland would be an idea.

Yes.



To the best of my knowledge, the job and housing situation is much better here. I haven't much more trouble getting jobs etc than anyone else. So I think there doing a far better job than Germany.

Well that's good to hear. I suppose one major difference between Ireland and other western nations is we got large scale immigration long after it was unacceptable to be racist in the western world. I mean if you think of immigration in the 60s in the UK the Tories had an election slogan ''If you want a ni*gger for a neighbour vote liberal or labour''

southsiderosie wrote:

How then are you defining multiculturalism versus assimilation? Because I don't think that's the argument at all. Instead, I see it as an argument that governments need to do more to make sure both immigrants and natives hold up their ends of the social contract. The problem there is that it is very difficult to do in the area of employment and housing without strong anti-discrimination laws, which non-minorities tend to get huffy about.

Well I suppose multi-culturism would be having faith schools for muslim immigrants whereas assimilation would be mandatory secular integrated schools for everyone. I think the latter option makes a lot more sense

southsiderosie

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Well I suppose multi-culturism would be having faith schools for muslim immigrants whereas assimilation would be mandatory secular integrated schools for everyone. I think the latter option makes a lot more sense

And here's where the system falls down: multiculturalism as you define it was state policy for natives in many European countries, with the Netherlands being the most obvious example. So immigrants arrived in a system which said "sure you can have your own state-sponsored religious schools and organizations and what have you! Here you go!". There was incredible social isolation between Protestants, Catholics and socialists/secularists in the Netherlands for ages: each group had their own schools, trade unions, parties, etc. But what the Dutch didn't reckon with was the fact that dropping a new group into an old system (which the Dutch have largely abandoned over the last 40 years) might have unintended consequences. Under the original pillarization system, groups agreed to disagree. But when foreigners who were not privy to the original social contract were thrown into the system, they just ended up disagreeing, and everyone else ended up confused and upset.

Bottle_of_Smoke

southsiderosie wrote: »

And here's where the system falls down: multiculturalism as you define it was state policy for natives in many European countries, with the Netherlands being the most obvious example. So immigrants arrived in a system which said "sure you can have your own state-sponsored religious schools and organizations and what have you! Here you go!". There was incredible social isolation between Protestants, Catholics and socialists/secularists in the Netherlands for ages: each group had their own schools, trade unions, parties, etc. But what the Dutch didn't reckon with was the fact that dropping a new group into an old system (which the Dutch have largely abandoned over the last 40 years) might have unintended consequences. Under the original pillarization system, groups agreed to disagree. But when foreigners who were not privy to the original social contract were thrown into the system, they just ended up disagreeing, and everyone else ended up confused and upset.

So what do you think we should do going forward?

southsiderosie

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

So what do you think we should do going forward?

Well, I guess the solution depends on what the problem is, and that tends to vary by country. And it is tricky within the EU because of the open labor market policy. But here goes...

One thing I think that both the US and the EU probably need right now is a time-out from immigration. The dirty little secret about America's long-term integration of its immigrant population is the fact that it took place over a 45-year period where there was little to no mass migration. There is a raging debate right now over whether or not integration is even possible when people are constantly arriving - especially when this creates monolinguistic clusters. So for the sake of long-term integration and the sanity of natives, maybe people just need a bit of a breather. In Europe, this would obviously only apply to non-EU migrants, given freedom of movement regulations, but these flows have ebbed significantly after their first initial shock from 2004-2006.

Moving forward, at the risk of sounding elitist, there also needs to be a serious social debate about what kind of immigration people want to have. From what I've read, the main predictor of immigrants' socioeconomic success is the educational attainment of the parents. So even if immigrants are poor, and they don't speak the language, if the parents have a lot of human capital, things generally end up OK: this is basically the story for Asians and Russians in much of Western Europe and the US. However, lower human capital immigrants can also successfully integrate if they are culturally and linguistically similar - Latin Americans have had less problems in Spain than West Africans. However here the sticking point is the fact that immigrants often take socially undesirable jobs: in many countries, natives just don't work as fruit pickers or janitors anymore, and haven't for generations. But somebody has to do this kind of work, so the question is, who?

I also think there needs to be a re-evaluation of welfare state policies, and this may solve part of the "who" problem. Expansive lifetime welfare benefits provide little incentive to work for both natives and immigrants who have access to the welfare state. The US "sink or swim" model may be harsh, but if you don't work, you don't eat, and if you don't learn English you will not find good work. So in a certain sense, our lack of a "system" for dealing with immigration may have better long-run consequences for integration. And that process is aided by our relatively flexible labor market.

As an aside on the role of the state, I think that the whole "integration office" bureaucratic infrastructure that has emerged is somewhat problematic. While I do agree that health and educational bureaucracies in particular may need state assistance in how to deal with a newly diverse population, I strongly believe the most important drivers of integration are education for children and work for adults. So instead of spending so much time and energy on kumbaya policies and conferences that are essentially state-funded circle jerks, governments should be paying far more attention to labor market and employment policies.

Finally, I do think that politicians really need to engage the public in an open conversation about immigration and immigration policy. Unfortunately, decades of public denial ("Germany is not a country of immigration") and wildly inaccurate predictions ("Why would Eastern Europeans want to come here"?) have left the public feeling rightly jaded about the whole process altogether. However, I think this debate is inhibited by the fact that many pro-immigration groups do not like hearing or acknowledging some of the hard truths about immigration, especially when certain ethnic groups in particular are clearly lagging. It is also inhibited by the right as well, which too often engages in fear-mongering, misinformation and demagoguery, often purely for political gain rather than any deep-seated beliefs. And in the meantime, the folks in the middle feel like there is no room for them in the debate.

Anyway, that's my two cents (and some change!)

RandomName2

Memnoch wrote: »

I'm really on the fence over the language issue, maybe because Irish isn't as ubiquitous here as it should be.

I get the cultural value of multiple languages, but as a race going forward, we should all just pick the one language, and English seems like the one.

Again, give it a couple of centuries and I think it will be.

If you move to Slovakia you should be able to speak Slovak, if you move to France you should be able to speak French, if you move to Italy you should be able to speak Italian

Or if you have moved to a country due to being offered a job, at least learn the language when you are there.

It is better for both native and foreigner, otherwise you get ex-pats who band together who are isolated from locals, and are quite often resented by locals (perhaps with justification)

Bottle_of_Smoke

RandomName2 wrote: »

If you move to Slovakia you should be able to speak Slovak, if you move to France you should be able to speak French, if you move to Italy you should be able to speak Italian

Or if you have moved to a country due to being offered a job, at least learn the language when you are there.

It is better for both native and foreigner, otherwise you get ex-pats who band together who are isolated from locals, and are quite often resented by locals (perhaps with justification)

Unless you're Oirish of course. I'm in a Dutch city and the Irish pub attracts a load of Dutch people who prefer binge drinking and the irish sense of humour to dutch cafe bars. Though mostly English-speaking Netherlands is probably the exception to the rule. In general you're probably right. You'll be happy to know I have a Dutch lesson this evening:cool:

jock101

pablo_escobar wrote: »

when there's high unemployment, immigrants are never welcome in any country.

i see nothing wrong with discussing the problems resulting from a relaxed approach to immigration.

lack of policy allows criminals to travel freely, putting citizens of your country in danger.

why ireland would allow people with criminal records into their country is bizzare.

why ireland would allow people with criminal records into their country is bizzare, and also highly infectious diseases like HIV and TB with no health screening.:eek::rolleyes::mad:

Palmach

wes wrote: »

Enact policies that give people a fair chance (same as everyone else) at housing and jobs. If people have equal access to housing and jobs, they will integrate on there own.

If they can't, then why bother learning the language or getting educated, if you will never be accepted? If people see people with education being accepted and successful, they will follow suit.
.

Merkel was referring to Muslims I think. The problem is almost entirely their fault in Germany. They have simply imported their third world beliefs and mores into Germany and continue to practice them. Furthermore they actively refuse to integrate feeling they are superior to the Kuffar. This does not apply to all Muslims but it does apply to those who are least integrated.

Palmach

jock101 wrote: »

why ireland would allow people with criminal records into their country is bizzare, and also highly infectious diseases like HIV and TB with no health screening.:eek::rolleyes::mad:

What constitutes a criminal record. Once got caught smoking a joint or killed their entire family with an axe?

jock101

Palmach wrote: »

Merkel was referring to Muslims I think. The problem is almost entirely their fault in Germany. They have simply imported their third world beliefs and mores into Germany and continue to practice them. Furthermore they actively refuse to integrate feeling they are superior to the Kuffar. This does not apply to all Muslims but it does apply to those who are least integrated.

If mulicultuaralism is such a great system, why does the host culture always have to appease the introduced alien/foreign culture. Always at the expense of the host country/cultures laws, society/values. There is nothing multicultural about Islam as it is a fundamentalist religious, legal and political entity! With an objective for Global domination:mad:. When in Rome you do as the Romans do!:rolleyes: Example, As when in Saudi you will do as the Saudi's do, or else!:mad:

jock101

Palmach wrote: »

What constitutes a criminal record. Once got caught smoking a joint or killed their entire family with an axe?

It works for the USA, Austrailia, Canada just to name a few! These country's only want law abiding decent people!:rolleyes:

Being caught smoking a joint if its recorded by the garda, is taking as drug related criminal record by homeland security agencies!

Nodin

Palmach wrote: »

Merkel was referring to Muslims I think. The problem is almost entirely their fault in Germany.

Germany refused to grant citizenship except on the grounds of 'blood' until the late 1990's. Do you think that had no bearing on the matter?

jock101 wrote:

If mulicultuaralism is such a great system, why does the host culture always have to appease the introduced alien/foreign culture.

Who said that the "host culture" had to "appease" anyone?

jock101

Nodin wrote: »

Germany refused to grant citizenship except on the grounds of 'blood' until the late 1990's. Do you think that had no bearing on the matter?


Who said that the "host culture" had to "appease" anyone?

Oh please just to look at the PC society that is forced upon us thesedays!:rolleyes:.

Nodin

jock101 wrote: »

Oh please just to look at the PC society that is forced upon us thesedays!:rolleyes:.

I'm not really interested in some generalised throwaway remark. Define exactly and precisely what you mean, with specific examples.

Bottle_of_Smoke

jock101 wrote: »

If mulicultuaralism is such a great system, why does the host culture always have to appease the introduced alien/foreign culture. Always at the expense of the host country/cultures laws, society/values. There is nothing multicultural about Islam as it is a fundamentalist religious, legal and political entity! With an objective for Global domination:mad:. When in Rome you do as the Romans do!:rolleyes: Example, As when in Saudi you will do as the Saudi's do, or else!:mad:

Why would you want us to have similar standards to a hell hole like saudi?

jock101

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Why would you want us to have similar standards to a hell hole like saudi?

I dont, I am just pointing out the double standards for us Western Kuffurs, as they refer to us as. We have to accept there culture with no right to question or refuse aspects of there Religion/culture without the accusation of being racist or bigotted. But our cultures and western faiths are not accepted at all! In there home nations!

Two cultures do not mix, especially when you have two completely different Cultures, Islam which is a political/religious theocracy and Western democracy! It will all end in tears, just like the Balkans!

Nodin

jock101 wrote: »

I dont, I am just pointing out the double standards for us Western Kuffurs, as they refer to us as. We have to accept there culture with no right to question or refuse aspects of there Religion/culture without the accusation of being racist or bigotted. But our cultures and western faiths are not accepted at all! In there home nations!

Two cultures do not mix, especially when you have two completely different Cultures, Islam which is a political/religious theocracy and Western democracy! It will all end in tears, just like the Balkans!

So you're just trotting out third hand generalisations then........

southsiderosie

jock101 wrote: »

If mulicultuaralism is such a great system, why does the host culture always have to appease the introduced alien/foreign culture. Always at the expense of the host country/cultures laws, society/values. There is nothing multicultural about Islam as it is a fundamentalist religious, legal and political entity! With an objective for Global domination:mad:. When in Rome you do as the Romans do!:rolleyes: Example, As when in Saudi you will do as the Saudi's do, or else!:mad:

How are you defining multiculturalism? An I don't mean things that happen that you don't like and then label "multiculturalism", I mean as a policy, how do you define multiculturalism?

Bottle_of_Smoke

jock101 wrote: »

I dont, I am just pointing out the double standards for us Western Kuffurs, as they refer to us as. We have to accept there culture with no right to question or refuse aspects of there Religion/culture without the accusation of being racist or bigotted. But our cultures and western faiths are not accepted at all! In there home nations!

My point is Muslims who leave these countries shouldn't be picked on when they get here because the country they came from is ruled by dicks. I mean take a democratic Muslim country Turkey - you can wear anything you want there. Well at least things you could wear here.

Two cultures do not mix, especially when you have two completely different Cultures, Islam which is a political/religious theocracy and Western democracy! It will all end in tears, just like the Balkans!

Well jews have been living in Britian and Ireland for hundreds of years. Strict Judaism isn't much different from strict Islam.

I think it would be better if we put in place measures protecting secularism and stopped being so PC about the whole thing, I'd just rather do that than unnecessarily impinge on Muslims traditions. My doctor in Dublin is awesome, I don't care that his wife wears a headscarf nor do I see why it would bother anyone

murphaph

Jock has a point IMO.

Islam (at least the form practiced in the middle eastern states) is NOT multi-cultural. It does NOT tolerate anything except the Islamic way. I personally have no beef with this...if Muslims wish to live their lives in theocratic states then so be it, BUT I do not, so I don't see any problem with someone saying "Accept that we don't want Sharia law here or p!ss off!" to a potential immigrant who complains that we are too decadent etc. in the west.

Islam is where Christianity was during the crusades. Christianity has mellowed a great deal since then (well, except in some fervent Bible belt states) so perhaps Islam will too, given time. I have been told by German turks that the turkish in Germany are more Islamic than those in Turkey itself, and from looking at an apparently cosmopolitan Turkey (with many women not bothering with head dress) on the TV, I can see his point. Strange that.

Fo Real

White flight in Dublin

http://web.archive.org/web/20071024022221/http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/10/19/europe/EU-GEN-Ireland-White-Flight.php

But of course, none of the immigration advocates here live in Dublin 15 . Once the black is serving them from behind a counter, it's ok. Now if one moved in next door....

southsiderosie

murphaph wrote: »

Jock has a point IMO.

Islam (at least the form practiced in the middle eastern states) is NOT multi-cultural. It does NOT tolerate anything except the Islamic way. I personally have no beef with this...if Muslims wish to live their lives in theocratic states then so be it, BUT I do not, so I don't see any problem with someone saying "Accept that we don't want Sharia law here or p!ss off!" to a potential immigrant who complains that we are too decadent etc. in the west.

Islam is where Christianity was during the crusades. Christianity has mellowed a great deal since then (well, except in some fervent Bible belt states) so perhaps Islam will too, given time. I have been told by German turks that the turkish in Germany are more Islamic than those in Turkey itself, and from looking at an apparently cosmopolitan Turkey (with many women not bothering with head dress) on the TV, I can see his point. Strange that.

A lot of Turks who emigrated abroad are from the conservative interior of the country (where the current PM is from), whereas Istanbul and the south-west are pretty cosmopolitan.

Bottle_of_Smoke

murphaph wrote: »

Jock has a point IMO.

Islam (at least the form practiced in the middle eastern states) is NOT multi-cultural. It does NOT tolerate anything except the Islamic way. I personally have no beef with this...if Muslims wish to live their lives in theocratic states then so be it, BUT I do not, so I don't see any problem with someone saying "Accept that we don't want Sharia law here or p!ss off!" to a potential immigrant who complains that we are too decadent etc. in the west.

Though plenty of Muslims are culturally tolerant, many assimilate and don't try to infringe on the natives. So I think it better that we appeal to them rather than give all muslims grief