Multicultural society has failed

Nodin

jock101 wrote: »

Oh please just to look at the PC society that is forced upon us thesedays!:rolleyes:.

I'm not really interested in some generalised throwaway remark. Define exactly and precisely what you mean, with specific examples.

Bottle_of_Smoke

jock101 wrote: »

If mulicultuaralism is such a great system, why does the host culture always have to appease the introduced alien/foreign culture. Always at the expense of the host country/cultures laws, society/values. There is nothing multicultural about Islam as it is a fundamentalist religious, legal and political entity! With an objective for Global domination:mad:. When in Rome you do as the Romans do!:rolleyes: Example, As when in Saudi you will do as the Saudi's do, or else!:mad:

Why would you want us to have similar standards to a hell hole like saudi?

jock101

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Why would you want us to have similar standards to a hell hole like saudi?

I dont, I am just pointing out the double standards for us Western Kuffurs, as they refer to us as. We have to accept there culture with no right to question or refuse aspects of there Religion/culture without the accusation of being racist or bigotted. But our cultures and western faiths are not accepted at all! In there home nations!

Two cultures do not mix, especially when you have two completely different Cultures, Islam which is a political/religious theocracy and Western democracy! It will all end in tears, just like the Balkans!

Nodin

jock101 wrote: »

I dont, I am just pointing out the double standards for us Western Kuffurs, as they refer to us as. We have to accept there culture with no right to question or refuse aspects of there Religion/culture without the accusation of being racist or bigotted. But our cultures and western faiths are not accepted at all! In there home nations!

Two cultures do not mix, especially when you have two completely different Cultures, Islam which is a political/religious theocracy and Western democracy! It will all end in tears, just like the Balkans!

So you're just trotting out third hand generalisations then........

southsiderosie

jock101 wrote: »

If mulicultuaralism is such a great system, why does the host culture always have to appease the introduced alien/foreign culture. Always at the expense of the host country/cultures laws, society/values. There is nothing multicultural about Islam as it is a fundamentalist religious, legal and political entity! With an objective for Global domination:mad:. When in Rome you do as the Romans do!:rolleyes: Example, As when in Saudi you will do as the Saudi's do, or else!:mad:

How are you defining multiculturalism? An I don't mean things that happen that you don't like and then label "multiculturalism", I mean as a policy, how do you define multiculturalism?

Bottle_of_Smoke

jock101 wrote: »

I dont, I am just pointing out the double standards for us Western Kuffurs, as they refer to us as. We have to accept there culture with no right to question or refuse aspects of there Religion/culture without the accusation of being racist or bigotted. But our cultures and western faiths are not accepted at all! In there home nations!

My point is Muslims who leave these countries shouldn't be picked on when they get here because the country they came from is ruled by dicks. I mean take a democratic Muslim country Turkey - you can wear anything you want there. Well at least things you could wear here.

Two cultures do not mix, especially when you have two completely different Cultures, Islam which is a political/religious theocracy and Western democracy! It will all end in tears, just like the Balkans!

Well jews have been living in Britian and Ireland for hundreds of years. Strict Judaism isn't much different from strict Islam.

I think it would be better if we put in place measures protecting secularism and stopped being so PC about the whole thing, I'd just rather do that than unnecessarily impinge on Muslims traditions. My doctor in Dublin is awesome, I don't care that his wife wears a headscarf nor do I see why it would bother anyone

murphaph

Jock has a point IMO.

Islam (at least the form practiced in the middle eastern states) is NOT multi-cultural. It does NOT tolerate anything except the Islamic way. I personally have no beef with this...if Muslims wish to live their lives in theocratic states then so be it, BUT I do not, so I don't see any problem with someone saying "Accept that we don't want Sharia law here or p!ss off!" to a potential immigrant who complains that we are too decadent etc. in the west.

Islam is where Christianity was during the crusades. Christianity has mellowed a great deal since then (well, except in some fervent Bible belt states) so perhaps Islam will too, given time. I have been told by German turks that the turkish in Germany are more Islamic than those in Turkey itself, and from looking at an apparently cosmopolitan Turkey (with many women not bothering with head dress) on the TV, I can see his point. Strange that.

Fo Real

White flight in Dublin

http://web.archive.org/web/20071024022221/http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/10/19/europe/EU-GEN-Ireland-White-Flight.php

But of course, none of the immigration advocates here live in Dublin 15 . Once the black is serving them from behind a counter, it's ok. Now if one moved in next door....

southsiderosie

murphaph wrote: »

Jock has a point IMO.

Islam (at least the form practiced in the middle eastern states) is NOT multi-cultural. It does NOT tolerate anything except the Islamic way. I personally have no beef with this...if Muslims wish to live their lives in theocratic states then so be it, BUT I do not, so I don't see any problem with someone saying "Accept that we don't want Sharia law here or p!ss off!" to a potential immigrant who complains that we are too decadent etc. in the west.

Islam is where Christianity was during the crusades. Christianity has mellowed a great deal since then (well, except in some fervent Bible belt states) so perhaps Islam will too, given time. I have been told by German turks that the turkish in Germany are more Islamic than those in Turkey itself, and from looking at an apparently cosmopolitan Turkey (with many women not bothering with head dress) on the TV, I can see his point. Strange that.

A lot of Turks who emigrated abroad are from the conservative interior of the country (where the current PM is from), whereas Istanbul and the south-west are pretty cosmopolitan.

Bottle_of_Smoke

murphaph wrote: »

Jock has a point IMO.

Islam (at least the form practiced in the middle eastern states) is NOT multi-cultural. It does NOT tolerate anything except the Islamic way. I personally have no beef with this...if Muslims wish to live their lives in theocratic states then so be it, BUT I do not, so I don't see any problem with someone saying "Accept that we don't want Sharia law here or p!ss off!" to a potential immigrant who complains that we are too decadent etc. in the west.

Though plenty of Muslims are culturally tolerant, many assimilate and don't try to infringe on the natives. So I think it better that we appeal to them rather than give all muslims grief

Nodin

Fo Real wrote: »

White flight in Dublin

http://web.archive.org/web/20071024022221/http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/10/19/europe/EU-GEN-Ireland-White-Flight.php

But of course, none of the immigration advocates here live in Dublin 15 . Once the black is serving them from behind a counter, it's ok. Now if one moved in next door....

And behold, the racists have arrived.......

Fo Real

Nodin wrote: »

And behold, the racists have arrived.......

Would you care to read the bloody report and then perhaps point out the part you take issue with? The fact is whites do not want Africans near them. That is why the white flight phenomneon has been observed in every white society across the world. Blacks move in, the whites move out.

southsiderosie

Fo Real wrote: »

White flight in Dublin

http://web.archive.org/web/20071024022221/http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/10/19/europe/EU-GEN-Ireland-White-Flight.php

But of course, none of the immigration advocates here live in Dublin 15 . Once the black is serving them from behind a counter, it's ok. Now if one moved in next door....

White flight is driven initially more by fear rather than reality, and then over time becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. How is the ignorance of some people the fault of immigrants? No policy can make people less stupid.

I was a non-white immigrant, and I moved to Ranelagh, and my neighbors did not recoil in horror. :rolleyes: And five out of the six renters in my building were foreigners (American, Italian, Filipina, 2 Aussies)

Mena

Fo Real wrote: »

Would you care to read the bloody report and then perhaps point out the part you take issue with? The fact is whites do not want Africans near them. That is why the white flight phenomneon has been observed in every white society across the world. Blacks move in, the whites move out.

I weep for myself, being white and African I must have a terrible time living with myself...

dsmythy

southsiderosie wrote: »

White flight is driven initially more by fear rather than reality, and then over time becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. How is the ignorance of some people the fault of immigrants? No policy can make people less stupid.

Must be an awful lot of ignorant white people to depopulate themselves from an entire area.

Fo Real

dsmythy wrote: »

Must be an awful lot of ignorant white people to depopulate themselves from an entire area.

But don't you know, the entire white population is stupid and ignorant.
That's why white flight occured in Detroit, Brooklyn, Atlanta, Malmo, parts of London, Paris.....ad infinitum

southsiderosie

In Chicago, white people sold their nice houses near the lakefront as soon as one black family moved in. Do you have any idea how well off a black family had to be to buy a house in Chicago in the 1950s or 60s? Basically it's like the Cosbys moved in, and everyone else freaked out. The sad thing is, a lot of home buyers were WWII vets: here were people who served their country honorably, and their fellow Americans did not even want to live next door to them. It's pathetic.

Yes, it is sheer ignorance that this happens. And when a neighborhood drastically depopulates, renters fill in, and property values drop, and it becomes a downward spiral - the worst kind of self-fulfilling prophesy.

I see white flight as just more support for the idea that a big reason why integration doesn't "work" is because natives refuse to see immigrants as social equals. Social contracts are a two-way street.

I think white flight is particularly bizarre in Dublin, given how awful so many "indigenous" areas are: now these are some people who need to run from their neighbors!

jock101

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

My point is Muslims who leave these countries shouldn't be picked on when they get here because the country they came from is ruled by dicks. I mean take a democratic Muslim country Turkey - you can wear anything you want there. Well at least things you could wear here.



Well jews have been living in Britian and Ireland for hundreds of years. Strict Judaism isn't much different from strict Islam.

I think it would be better if we put in place measures protecting secularism and stopped being so PC about the whole thing, I'd just rather do that than unnecessarily impinge on Muslims traditions. My doctor in Dublin is awesome, I don't care that his wife wears a headscarf nor do I see why it would bother anyone

When have Jews publicly cited their goal to impose Judaism on the peoples of the World who do not want to have anything to do with it !

Fo Real

You claim ignorance is the cause of white flight. But the sad reality is that blacks are far, far more likely to be involved in crime in America. When middle class whites watch the news every evening and see a black arrested for drug dealing, sticking up a shop or even for murder, of course they're going to feel uneasy when one suddenly turns up in their neighbourhood.

I never understood the black obsession with being a "gangster". They dress with their trousers hanging around their ankles, listen to violent music where they brag about crime, speak in ebonics (very poor English) and idolise characters from the Italian mafias, who ironically despise blacks.

Maybe this has something to do with it?

dsmythy

southsiderosie wrote: »

In Chicago, white people sold their nice houses near the lakefront as soon as one black family moved in. Do you have any idea how well off a black family had to be to buy a house in Chicago in the 1950s or 60s? Basically it's like the Cosbys moved in, and everyone else freaked out. The sad thing is, a lot of home buyers were WWII vets: here were people who served their country honorably, and their fellow Americans did not even want to live next door to them. It's pathetic.

Yes, it is sheer ignorance that this happens. And when a neighborhood drastically depopulates, renters fill in, and property values drop, and it becomes a downward spiral - the worst kind of self-fulfilling prophesy.

I see white flight as just more support for the idea that a big reason why integration doesn't "work" is because natives refuse to see immigrants as social equals. Social contracts are a two-way street.

I think white flight is particularly bizarre in Dublin, given how awful so many "indigenous" areas are: now these are some people who need to run from their neighbors!

I refuse to believe Ireland (and indeed Chicago) today is anywhere near the level of pure racism of 1950's America. One or two black families moving into a street is not going to cause white people to leave outside of utterly racist people.

I don't believe a fear of crime is the reason for "white flight" in Ireland at this point in time. We'll have to see when the bulk of 2nd generation immigrants born in boom time get into them teenage years and beyond what the situation will be with regards immigration and crime.

It could be the same reason immigrants might like to seek out areas where their fellow countrymen are well represented. We could stop this from happening by preventing people from concentrating themselves in certain districts but that brings up all sorts of civil liberty issues to say the least.

southsiderosie

Fo Real wrote: »

You claim ignorance is the cause of white flight. But the sad reality is that blacks are far, far more likely to be involved in crime in America. When middle class whites watch the news every evening and see a black arrested for drug dealing, sticking up a shop or even for murder, of course they're going to feel uneasy when one suddenly turns up in their neighbourhood.

I never understood the black obsession with being a "gangster". They dress with their trousers hanging around their ankles, listen to violent music where they brag about crime, speak in ebonics (very poor English) and idolise characters from the Italian mafias, who ironically despise blacks.

Maybe this has something to do with it?

It's ridiculous to stereotype all blacks in this way. Not all blacks want to be gangsters or glorify gangster rap culture (and suburban white kids are the vast majority of the ones buying/downloading this music), and there are plenty of blacks who hate it.

In addition, most victims of black crime are other blacks. But a poor black person mugging another poor black person in the ghetto is a less sexy story than 'black crackhead holds up white suburban family".

A lot of the issues around crime in the US are closely linked to poverty. But there everything gets racialized. It has been an interesting experience for me living in Ireland where the vast majority of the "urban underclass" are white people. White Irish people living in council housing in Ballymun behave the same way as Black Americans in public housing on the south side of Chicago do, except Black Americans have easier access to guns.

dsmythy wrote: »

I refuse to believe Ireland (and indeed Chicago) today is anywhere near the level of pure racism of 1950's America. One or two black families moving into a street is not going to cause white people to leave outside of utterly racist people.

I don't believe a fear of crime is the reason for "white flight" in Ireland at this point in time. We'll have to see when the bulk of 2nd generation immigrants born in boom time get into them teenage years and beyond what the situation will be with regards immigration and crime.

It could be the same reason immigrants might like to seek out areas where their fellow countrymen are well represented. We could stop this from happening by preventing people from concentrating themselves in certain districts but that brings up all sorts of civil liberty issues to say the least.

I don't think that Ireland has 1950s-style racism, but I do think that Irish people can be quite clannish and suspicious of outsiders.

Pretty much everything I've read about why immigrants have settled in certain areas attributes it to housing (as the article mentioned). However, the article also mentioned that there was a mixed immigrant population in D15, so I don't see that as necessarily ending up like the some of the banlieus where the population is overwhelmingly Muslim and North African. That said, most immigrants have preferred to live in ethnic enclaves because it is a useful way to build networks that help with job hunting, child care, commerce, and fellowship.

orourkeda

I agree with pretty much everything she has to say. Integration is key.

The problem is that "ghettoisation", for want of a better expression, is deeply ingrained among some migrant communities and things are unlikely to change in the short to medium term

orourkeda

southsiderosie wrote: »

I don't think that Ireland has 1950s-style racism, but I do think that Irish people can be quite clannish and suspicious of outsiders.

Pretty much everything I've read about why immigrants have settled in certain areas attributes it to housing (as the article mentioned). However, the article also mentioned that there was a mixed immigrant population in D15, so I don't see that as necessarily ending up like the some of the banlieus where the population is overwhelmingly Muslim and North African. That said, most immigrants have preferred to live in ethnic enclaves because it is a useful way to build networks that help with job hunting, child care, commerce, and fellowship.

Surely immigrants do the same thing. They tend to stick to their own. Being clannish or tribal isnt the unique preserve of Irish people by any means.

Nodin

Mena wrote: »

I weep for myself, being white and African I must have a terrible time living with myself...

Sit down on the couch to watch TV and all of a sudden feel an urge to flee....? Can't be easy.

Nodin

Fo Real wrote: »

You claim ignorance (.....)to do with it?

Stereotyping and ignorant generalisations? Yep, thats a good deal to do with it.

Scofflaw

southsiderosie wrote: »

In Chicago, white people sold their nice houses near the lakefront as soon as one black family moved in. Do you have any idea how well off a black family had to be to buy a house in Chicago in the 1950s or 60s? Basically it's like the Cosbys moved in, and everyone else freaked out. The sad thing is, a lot of home buyers were WWII vets: here were people who served their country honorably, and their fellow Americans did not even want to live next door to them. It's pathetic.

Yes, it is sheer ignorance that this happens. And when a neighborhood drastically depopulates, renters fill in, and property values drop, and it becomes a downward spiral - the worst kind of self-fulfilling prophesy.

I see white flight as just more support for the idea that a big reason why integration doesn't "work" is because natives refuse to see immigrants as social equals. Social contracts are a two-way street.

I think white flight is particularly bizarre in Dublin, given how awful so many "indigenous" areas are: now these are some people who need to run from their neighbors!

I think calling it "white flight" rather begs the question of whether Irish people who leave an area are leaving it because of immigrants moving in, or leaving it because it's a rough area anyway, and anyone who can afford to moves out, leaving the relatively less wealthy immigrants to move in. A lot of immigrants are short on cash, whether they intend staying permanently or are young eastern Europeans working in the service industry.

I had friends who moved into fairly rough areas because that was what they could afford at the time. When they could, they sold up and moved on. Those areas have become more mixed, but that's not why they moved - they moved because they were tired of the local Dubs setting their cars on fire, stealing anything not nailed down, chucking rotten milk through any available open window, and the like.

Those of us who emigrated in the Eighties and Nineties will remember living in similarly rough multicultural neighbourhoods and Irish 'ghettoes', and being very glad to get out of them ourselves the minute we had enough money to do so.

If you look at maps of Dublin from the nineteenth century, you'll find that the slum areas are very stable over the century or more since. It's not a case of people abandoning previously prosperous neighbourhoods, which is what was involved in "white flight".

cordially,
Scofflaw

Fo Real

First off, thanks to Southsiderosie for another well thought out contribution. Of course not all blacks listen to gangsta rap and aspire to that lifestyle, but TV networks like BET are promoting it to the point where even Africans (not just black Americans) presume this is how they should act. This is the image that black America is advertising to the world. I cringed when Barack Obama confessed to listening to Jay-Z on his iPod. Whether it was merely a lie to appease those criticising him for "not being black enough", I don't know. But I'd like to think the US President has a better taste in music than "99 problems but a bítch ain't one". (Nevermind all the drug and gun references this self-confessed drug dealer makes in his songs...)

Also your point about black on black crime is correct. Again, I'd link this back to the gangsta rap culture. It's not whites killing blacks; it's blacks killing blacks.
79.9 % of the general pop. is white Vs 12.84% black

BUT...
33.4% of the prison pop. is white Vs 40.21% black
source

Where is the black leadership promoting education? It's seen as a "white" thing to go to college or move to a good area. And I'm not generalisng about all blacks, just a worryingly disproportionate amount. Yes, some of these problems are rooted in poverty, but too many blacks seem intent on getting chrome wheels for their Range Rover rather than investing in their race's future.

I hope we're not going off topic. Yes black American culture is segregating itself from White America, but it's a native culture that is at home in America rather than an immigrant one.

southsiderosie

Fo Real wrote: »

First off, thanks to Southsiderosie for another well thought out contribution. Of course not all blacks listen to gangsta rap and aspire to that lifestyle, but TV networks like BET are promoting it to the point where even Africans (not just black Americans) presume this is how they should act. This is the image that black America is advertising to the world. I cringed when Barack Obama confessed to listening to Jay-Z on his iPod. Whether it was merely a lie to appease those criticising him for "not being black enough", I don't know. But I'd like to think the US President has a better taste in music than "99 problems but a bítch ain't one". (Nevermind all the drug and gun references this self-confessed drug dealer makes in his songs...)

Also your point about black on black crime is correct. Again, I'd link this back to the gangsta rap culture. It's not whites killing blacks; it's blacks killing blacks.
79.9 % of the general pop. is white Vs 12.84% black

BUT...
33.4% of the prison pop. is white Vs 40.21% black
source

Where is the black leadership promoting education? It's seen as a "white" thing to go to college or move to a good area. And I'm not generalisng about all blacks, just a worryingly disproportionate amount. Yes, some of these problems are rooted in poverty, but too many blacks seem intent on getting chrome wheels for their Range Rover rather than investing in their race's future.

I hope we're not going off topic. Yes black American culture is segregating itself from White America, but it's a native culture that is at home in America rather than an immigrant one.

To be fair, this is probably deserving of its own thread. But just to make a few quick points:

* Lord, if you want to set me or a lot of people off on a rant, bring up BET! I HATE BET!!! :mad::mad::mad: Lots of black folks hate BET! It is 23 hours of coonery and buffoonery, with an hour of bad infomercials thrown in for good measure. Aaron McGruder, the creator of the cartoon strip The Boondocks (which used to be brilliant until he got really lazy) used to regularly savage BET (choice McGruder quote: "B.E.T. may be the worst thing to happen to black people since Jimmie Walker.").

/rant

In a less hysterical aside, hip-hop is not wildly popular in the black community these days either; in a Pew survey 2 years ago 71% of blacks thought that it was a bad influence

* The prison issue in the US is a disgrace. Yes in inner-city communities, going to prison has been normalized (the way going to college should be). But a lot of this is driven by mandatory sentencing for non-violent drug crime, which overall has sent the prison population through the roof, and has disproportionately affected young black men. I hate drug dealers with a passion, and there is far too much of it in the black community, but something has got to give with sentencing laws

* I would agree that the bling-bling culture is problematic. But, again, there is a raging debate within the black community about this. I think Bill Cosby's infamous "pound cake" speech on education and what passes for black "culture" these days struck a chord with a lot of middle-class blacks (and for a very long but very good overview of black conservatism and social change in the US this is a great article)

southsiderosie

Scofflaw wrote: »

I think calling it "white flight" rather begs the question of whether Irish people who leave an area are leaving it because of immigrants moving in, or leaving it because it's a rough area anyway, and anyone who can afford to moves out, leaving the relatively less wealthy immigrants to move in. A lot of immigrants are short on cash, whether they intend staying permanently or are young eastern Europeans working in the service industry.

I had friends who moved into fairly rough areas because that was what they could afford at the time. When they could, they sold up and moved on. Those areas have become more mixed, but that's not why they moved - they moved because they were tired of the local Dubs setting their cars on fire, stealing anything not nailed down, chucking rotten milk through any available open window, and the like.

Those of us who emigrated in the Eighties and Nineties will remember living in similarly rough multicultural neighbourhoods and Irish 'ghettoes', and being very glad to get out of them ourselves the minute we had enough money to do so.

If you look at maps of Dublin from the nineteenth century, you'll find that the slum areas are very stable over the century or more since. It's not a case of people abandoning previously prosperous neighbourhoods, which is what was involved in "white flight".

cordially,
Scofflaw

The "white flight" article originally posted said there had been enormous population growth in the area, which I think was driven by new construction. But the white flight part referred to changes in the student population. I guess it's not very clear if people are moving their kids out of schools or abandoning the area wholesale.

Like I said before, most of the people I talked to in Dublin about it thought it was a case of immigrants following new developments, so I'm not sure how many natives were even in the area in the first place (I'm not familiar with it).

#15

Can anyone link to some good info about the Turks in Germany - plenty of people have referenced it but not elaborated on it. I'm interested in seeing what errors the German state have made in relation to their Turkish population.

Google isn't giving me great results. Thanks.