Have we given up?

tbh

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

No. Given that I was not in any of those countries, sadly, I couldn't. I would if there was one here though. Would you stand up and be counted tbh?

Thanks for your valuable contribtion to the debate by the way!.

hang on tho, how do you mean "you would if there was one here"? Do you mean if someone else organised one, you'd go?

Permabear

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Lenny Lovett

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

Protests aren't happening here because the middle still hasn't been squeezed enough.

Until the public sector starts to shed jobs and cut wages to the same extent that the private sector has, there will not be any significant protest. The state is the biggest employer. The public sector is more heavily unionised. The levies introduced so far have for most people been bearable. Those who got mortgages prior to 2004/5 will mostly manage.

If public sector reform ever does come about and we see teachers, civil servants, health service workers etc, who up until now have been in jobs-for-life, start to deal with the same job insecurity and threats to income as the rest of the workforce/unemployed, maybe then we'll start to see real protest.

Until then, the inequitable status quo will remain with people fooling themselves that 'everyone' is suffering.

Exactly. And as the Public Service voraciuosly swallows up over 60% of our tax take then, logically, that's where the really serious cutting needs to start. We can keep cutting Welfare and Pensions etc etc as long as we want but if the Civil Service is going to remain as is then the problem will remain as is or ina ctual fact it will grow.

tbh wrote: »

hang on tho, how do you mean "you would if there was one here"? Do you mean if someone else organised one, you'd go?

Yes! Absolutely. btw, is this another way of trying to provoke me into another ban that you're so good at organising? If so, crack on matey!

donegalfella wrote: »

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And that is exactly what I have been trying to get through to you over my last few posts. You cannot generalise with blanket decrees that the rate of payment is too high. In some cases (but very few I would contend) it probably is but in the vast vast majority of cases it is just about enough.

If there was even an ounce of lateral thinking within the ranks of the Dept of Social Welfare they would realise that they would be better increasing the main payment a small bit and eliminating all added extras such as rent allowance, fuel allowance etc etc etc. But, and this is a big but, this would be contrary to the wishes of the Department as it would cut out vast swathes of paperwork and penpushing and thus allow for a leaner more efficient department. Simple logic!

tbh

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

Yes! Absolutely.

Ok, well you were the one wondering why no-one was marching. Maybe everyone was waiting for someone else to organise a march, just like you were? Have *you* lost your fight?

Do you not see the irony in starting a thread asking people why nobody did something you didn't do yourself?

DeVore

You didnt answer my simple question (quoted below for your convenience and in case you missed it).

DeV.

DeVore wrote: »

How do you suggest we "change the country for the better", I mean how do we realistically achieve that? By what mechanism? Election? Revolution? Lobbying? How?


DeV.

Lenny Lovett

tbh wrote: »

Ok, well you were the one wondering why no-one was marching. Maybe everyone was waiting for someone else to organise a march, just like you were? Have *you* lost your fight?

So this is what you're looking for, a fight? Why? What's your problem?

tbh wrote: »

Do you not see the irony in starting a thread asking people why nobody did something you didn't do yourself?

Not really. It is a forum for political discussion and debate. I believe that is a fair point that I made. I remember in the eighties when the then ITGWU organised protest marches in every town in the country. The irony now is that they have no moral high ground as they have been found out to have loads of taxpayers money sitting in their bank accounts and have been found out to use it on jaunts around the world. As regards my personal involvement in bettering conditions in this country, I am a Director of a company that employs over eighty people directly and another fifty or so indirectly. We export most of our product. We are responsible for the injection of several million Euro into the local economy and we pay a substantial sum in taxes. Aslo in my spare time I am involved in a charity that helps people directly affected by the economic downturn so I do have some insight into what I am talking about.... And You? What do you contribute to the situation?

tbh

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

So this is what you're looking for, a fight? Why? What's your problem?

was in reference to this.

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

So I'm asking: Are we beaten now? Have we given up the will to unseat the Government and reclaim our country? Do we no longer care?

I've no problem with you, I'm contributing to this thread, as I am entitled to do, any personal comments have come from yourself.

Not really. It is a forum for political discussion and debate. I believe that is a fair point that I made. I remember in the eighties when the then ITGWU organised protest marches in every town in the country. The irony now is that they have no moral high ground as they have been found out to have loads of taxpayers money sitting in their bank accounts and have been found out to use it on jaunts around the world. As regards my personal involvement in bettering conditions in this country, I am a Director of a company that employs over eighty people directly and another fifty or so indirectly. We export most of our product. We are responsible for the injection of several million Euro into the local economy and we pay a substantial sum in taxes. Aslo in my spare time I am involved in a charity that helps people directly affected by the economic downturn so I do have some insight into what I am talking about

I wasn't really questioning your ability to comment, I was asking you if you marched at the weekend. You started a thread asking why noone marched. So why didn't you march Lenny. It's a simple straightforward point - the reasons you didn't march are probably the same reasons as I didn't march - because I'm too busy, because I don't think it'll solve anything, because I don't want to be associated with the organisations that generally swarm on these marches, and so on. I'm not the one bemoaning the fact that others didn't do something I didn't do myself.

.... And You? What do you contribute to the situation?

sorry - am I required to justify myself before I can contribute to a thread now?

DeVore

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

So this is what you're looking for, a fight? Why? What's your problem?

Not really. It is a forum for political discussion and debate. I believe that is a fair point that I made. I remember in the eighties when the then ITGWU organised protest marches in every town in the country. The irony now is that they have no moral high ground as they have been found out to have loads of taxpayers money sitting in their bank accounts and have been found out to use it on jaunts around the world. As regards my personal involvement in bettering conditions in this country, I am a Director of a company that employs over eighty people directly and another fifty or so indirectly. We export most of our product. We are responsible for the injection of several million Euro into the local economy and we pay a substantial sum in taxes. Aslo in my spare time I am involved in a charity that helps people directly affected by the economic downturn so I do have some insight into what I am talking about.... And You? What do you contribute to the situation?

Google "Ad Hominem". Actually, here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

You started a thread complaining about that people arent doing what you yourself arent doing. That a form of hypocrisy imho.


You still havent answered my question.


DeV.

Lenny Lovett

tbh wrote: »

was in reference to this.


I've no problem with you, I'm contributing to this thread, as I am entitled to do, any personal comments have come from yourself.

Oh yeah? so you only contribute to this forum once in a blue moon and start throwing muck my way. Yeah. Right. Again I say you're out to provoke a row as you've done on other forums here and got away with it.

tbh wrote: »

I wasn't really questioning your ability to comment,

Yes you were!

tbh wrote: »

I was asking you if you marched at the weekend. You started a thread asking why noone marched. So why didn't you march Lenny. It's a simple straightforward point - the reasons you didn't march are probably the same reasons as I didn't march - because I'm too busy, because I don't think it'll solve anything, because I don't want to be associated with the organisations that generally swarm on these marches, and so on.

I didn't say I was too busy to march did I? I am too busy to organise one. I would happily march for the betterment of this country. I also stated that I also do other practical things to contribute to the betterment of Ireland and asked what you do???? You didn't answer...

tbh wrote: »

sorry - am I required to justify myself before I can contribute to a thread now?

Well if you're going to question others intentions then, Yes, I believe you should be proud to say what marvellous steps you are taking to better society too.

oscarBravo

Lenny, discuss the topic. If you have a personal beef with another poster, take it somewhere else.

Permabear

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Lenny Lovett

DeVore wrote: »

Google "Ad Hominem". Actually, here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

You started a thread complaining about that people arent doing what you yourself arent doing. That a form of hypocrisy imho.


You still havent answered my question.


DeV.

What question did you direct to me? The only one from you I can find is directed at someone else:http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68599858&postcount=57

donegalfella wrote: »

And then you say that you're too busy to do any organizing, but of course you're willing to show up for a couple of hours on the day.

You really don't seem all that committed to the cause. You just think other people should be committed to it, and that you should be able to latch on to the tail end of something.

Hang on a second. I spnt Saturday morning working in my own business which is very much adding benefit to the economy and I spent Saturday afternoon until 9pm and most of Sunday assisting in my involvement with a charity that is actively assisting people who are in bother as a result of the current economic mess. So how is that not contributing? All I said is that I do not have time to organise a march. I would, as I said be happy to join in though. And again, what do you do to enhance the country from your armchair?

P.S. I've just counted now that I have four mods having a pop at me on this subject now. A new record for me!

Permabear

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Lenny Lovett

donegalfella wrote: »

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Well done! Good work.

Actually my ultimate goal is the betterment of the country and the lives of all of it's inhabitants. Unseating the Government is only a small part of that. And, actually, "unseating" is a bit strong. I'd prefer to say changing or maybe improving. A bit more positive don't you think?;)

If everyone did something, no matter how small, for the betterment of society this country would bounce back very fast. Nelson Mandela once said " If everyone sweeps outside their own doors the whole country would be tidy". And aint that the truth!

Permabear

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Lenny Lovett

donegalfella wrote: »

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They face a cold one anyway due to the impending welfare cuts by the Government so M. Le Frenchman's involvement is debatable.

donegalfella wrote: »

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That's a matter of opinion. I would proffer that mobilisation of the people would speed up the process of having the all important General Election and thus hastening much needed change.

tbh

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

They face a cold one anyway due to the impending welfare cuts by the Government so M. Le Frenchman's involvement is debatable.

That's a matter of opinion. I would proffer that mobilisation of the people would speed up the process of having the all important General Election and thus hastening much needed change.

change to what tho. it seems there's a lot of people in Ireland screaming that something should be done, but when they are asked about the specifics, they go vague. I'd agree that anyone would be better than the current government, but I've also always been of the opinion that you should know exactly where you're going to land before you jump..

spadesaspade

Yeah, feck it, im out of here

tbh

spadesaspade wrote: »

Yeah, feck it, im out of here

thread question: Answered.

Lenny Lovett

tbh wrote: »

change to what tho. it seems there's a lot of people in Ireland screaming that something should be done, but when they are asked about the specifics, they go vague.

Several of us detailed changes we would make in another thread here a few weeks back. I'll try and dig it out and post the link here later.

tbh wrote: »

I'd agree that anyone would be better than the current government, but I've also always been of the opinion that you should know exactly where you're going to land before you jump..

The problem with our type of voting system (PR) is that it is impossible to accurately predict where we will land before we jump. FF could come third for example but end up back in Government in a coalition with Labour and Sinn Fein. Unlikely but very possible. A good guide to the thinking is on the Paddy Power website. According to them the field is wide open and the bookies rarely get caught out.Take the UK for example: Nobody expected the Lib Dems to form a Government with the Tories. They had totally different policies prior to the election. And all three parties got close to equal votes.
Back here, who would have backed the Greens to jump into bed with FF prior to the last election? Certainly not many of their own members let alone anyone else. As I said in another thread, we need a complete transfusion of blood in the Dáil but that will take possibly two or three General Elections to achieve.

tbh

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

Several of us detailed changes we would make in another thread here a few weeks back. I'll try and dig it out and post the link here later.

The problem with our type of voting system (PR) is that it is impossible to accurately predict where we will land before we jump. FF could come third for example but end up back in Government in a coalition with Labour. Unlikely but very possible. A good guide to the thinking is on the Paddy Power website. According to them the field is wide open and the bookies rarely get caught out.Take the UK for example: Nobody expected the Lib Dems to form a Government with the Tories. They had totally different policies prior to the election. And all three parties got close to equal votes.
Back here, who would have backed the Greens to jump into bed with FF prior to the last election? Certainly not many of their own members let alone anyone else. As I said in another thread, we need a complete transfusion of blood in the Dáil but that will take possibly two or three General Elections to achieve.

I agree - and to an extent I think that if the answer to your original question is "yes, we have given up" then the reason for that is because we've all seen the status quo maintained for so long, and the feeling is, with some justification, that things aren't going to change. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Possibly the reason for that is that our party system is split along idealogical lines, rather than social or political lines. As you say - we may have a few years to go before that dies out.

Permabear

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Lenny Lovett

tbh wrote: »

I agree - and to an extent I think that if the answer to your original question is "yes, we have given up" then the reason for that is because we've all seen the status quo maintained for so long, and the feeling is, with some justification, that things aren't going to change. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Possibly the reason for that is that our party system is split along idealogical lines, rather than social or political lines. As you say - we may have a few years to go before that dies out.

You see, that's where I'm flummoxed. I'm not sure the answer is Yes. It probably is but it will all depend on the upcoming budget and the reaction, if any, to it. I don't believe in marching resulting in public disorder which is what most people here percieve these marches to be. I understand that perception because of the hijiacking of the one last year and the hassle entailed. However, the Government are never going to get the message unless the people take to the streets, peacefully, but in very large numbers and show them. This is unlikely to happen given that so many of the currently employed people are Public Servants and have got their pay deal. A change of Government could jeopardise that arrangement so they're unlikely to be too quick to boot out the current incumbents. It's like a game of chess and one side have to make the first move but in substantial numbers.

tbh

I wonder is it anything to do with catholic guilt? We've all been raised to expect punishment after bad behaviour - do we maybe collectively feel we deserve this pain?? (I'm probably only 3/4 joking btw!!)

Lenny Lovett

tbh wrote: »

I wonder is it anything to do with catholic guilt? We've all been raised to expect punishment after bad behaviour - do we maybe collectively feel we deserve this pain?? (I'm probably only 3/4 joking btw!!)

No. It's because it takes serious organisation to do it properly and in an orderly fashion. I believe it's down to the fact that the Unions are the only ones that have the time, membership and resources to organise a serious/credible mass protest (not agressive) action but they have neutered and compromised themselves by A. The Croke Park Agreement and B.The issue of the money they 'had resting in their account'. If you remember the eighties and when there were marches all over the country, they were all orchestrated by the I.T.G.W.U.

djpbarry

donegalfella wrote: »

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I’ve just walked past a great big banner in Lincoln’s Inn Fields, London, that read “Smash the Lib Dem-Tory Coalition”. Don’t you just love democracy!

djpbarry

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

I note that you say yourself and "the missus". So is she employed? If so, how were you entitled to the full Dole?

You see, it’s questions like this that totally undermine your argument and lead me to believe that you really don’t know what you’re talking about.

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

That and many other examples of how the cost of living is substantially higher outside the cities.

I don’t think I’ll be taking your word over the CSO’s.

I think I’m done with this thread – you refuse to accept anything as evidence if it does not conform to your own personal opinion.

Lenny Lovett

djpbarry wrote: »

I don’t think I’ll be taking your word over the CSO’s.

Fair enough but the CSO deals in statistics not individual facts. Where do they get their information? From the people who sell the products so are the major chains going to brag that they sell a sliced pan for 60c in Dubline and €1.90 down the country? Hmm...

djpbarry wrote: »

I think I’m done with this thread – you refuse to accept anything as evidence if it does not conform to your own personal opinion.

Fair enough. I note you didn't address the points about the additional outgoings from households that you missed such as rates, TV licence, water charges etc etc.

djpbarry

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

Fair enough but the CSO deals in statistics not individual facts. Where do they get their information? From the people who sell the products so are the major chains going to brag that they sell a sliced pan for 60c in Dubline and €1.90 down the country? Hmm...

The prices quoted are easily verified, are they not?

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

I note you didn't address the points about the additional outgoings from households that you missed such as rates, TV licence, water charges etc etc.

Rates? Zero. TV License? EUR 1.54 per week. Water charges? Don't exist.

Y'know, I'm finding it ever so hard to believe that you're a succesful business person, but you don't believe it's possible to live on EUR 196 per week.

Anyways, I'm done. I need more than opinions cast as facts to hold my attention in a thread.

Valmont

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

Nelson Mandela once said " If everyone sweeps outside their own doors the whole country would be tidy". And aint that the truth!

Too bad the street is owned by the council then.