What was god doing during the Rwandan genocide?

0verblood

Almost a million people were hacked to death in 100days. I was recently in Rwanda, it's a beautiful country, but the same question repeated itself to me over and over: What was a loving and caring god doing during this crisis? I am an atheist but this is not an attempt at trolling.

Seaneh

To quote a Christian musician and Pastor, Lecrae Moore.

"Some people say that God ain't real 'cause they don't see how a good God can exist with all this evil in the world. If God is real then He should stop all this evil, 'cause He's all-powerful right? What is evil though man? It's anything that's against God. It's anything morally bad or wrong. It's murder, rape, stealing, lying, cheating. But if we want God to stop evil, do we want Him to stop it all or just a little bit of it? If He stops us from doing evil things, what about lying, or what about our evil thoughts? I mean, where do you stop, the murder level, the lying level, or the thinking level? If we want Him to stop evil, we gotta be consistent, we can't just pick and choose. That means you and I would be eliminated right? Because we think evil stuff. If that's true, we should be eliminated! But thanks be to God that Jesus stepped in to save us from our sin! Christ died for all evilness!"

0verblood

Seaneh wrote: »

To quote a Christian musician and Pastor, Lecrae Moore.

"Some people say that God ain't real 'cause they don't see how a good God can exist with all this evil in the world. If God is real then He should stop all this evil, 'cause He's all-powerful right? What is evil though man? It's anything that's against God. It's anything morally bad or wrong. It's murder, rape, stealing, lying, cheating. But if we want God to stop evil, do we want Him to stop it all or just a little bit of it? If He stops us from doing evil things, what about lying, or what about our evil thoughts? I mean, where do you stop, the murder level, the lying level, or the thinking level? If we want Him to stop evil, we gotta be consistent, we can't just pick and choose. That means you and I would be eliminated right? Because we think evil stuff. If that's true, we should be eliminated! But thanks be to God that Jesus stepped in to save us from our sin! Christ died for all evilness!"

Ok that doesn't make any sense, sounds like something from South Park.

Can I get a better reply from maybe FC or PDN?

Seaneh

It makes perfect sense.
You are basically asking why did God allow something so evil to happen. But in reality evil is just what happens when people turn away from God. It's what happens when you don't follow Gods two greatest commandments to humanity

“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” (Matthew 22)

If humanity followed the "Great Commandments" as they are known then stuff like what happened in Rwanda in 1994 and Yugoslavia between 1991 and 1995 would never happen.

You are asking why does God allow evil, why doesn't he eliminate evil, but if he was to eliminate all evil he would have to eliminate humanity because we (humans) have evil thoughts, all of us do. Whether they be things we as humans consider evil thoughts or not is neither here nor there, in Gods eyes it is sin and all sin is evil and all evil is equally offensive to God.

0verblood

Many people were burnt alive inside of churches, where they went for sanctuary. They turned towards god, not away from him. What was he doing when the kids were crying out for his help as they were burning alive?

Fanny Cradock

Next bout of trollish remarks will receive infractions. Thank you for your patience during this time.

Fanny Cradock

0verblood wrote: »

Almost a million people were hacked to death in 100days. I was recently in Rwanda, it's a beautiful country, but the same question repeated itself to me over and over: What was a loving and caring god doing during this crisis? I am an atheist but this is not an attempt at trolling.

I don't think there is a satisfactory answer to your question. Indeed, I think that the existence of evil is possibly the most compelling argument against a loving creator, and so an entire branch of theology (theodicy) is given over to the problem of squaring a good God with the evil we see in the world (assuming one believes that there are such things called good and evil). I've yet to find a complete answer, and I strongly suspect that there is none to be found this side of the grave. In this regard, the Bible never attempts to give an account of the nature of evil and suffering. (As a side note, if one is to discuss the problem of evil, the question that arises from this is "whence came good?". Surely goodness is also a problem, if not a happy one.)

Anyway, the short answer I would give to your question would probably revolve around free will - which is pretty much what Seaneh said. So just as we are free to do good, we are also free to do evil. Freedom of choice is at the heart of Christianity. It is enshrined in our existence. I really don't know where God was during the genocide; perhaps we can look at the stories of courage, love, generosity and redemption that flew in the face of so much madness and say "God was there". Or maybe we can acknowledge these anecdotes as touching but essentially random outcomes in a particularly a notably brutal spell of meaningless events. Either way I think it would be impossible to know what the Holocaust or Rwanda would look like without God, and therefore it isn't possible to say if God was there or not.

Perhaps you would benifit from reading some of the writings of those who survived the horrors of man. In his book Survival in Auschwitz, Primo Levi share the following:

"Driven by thirst, I eyed a fine icicle outside the window, within hand’s reach. I opened the window and broke off the icicle, but at once a large, heavy guard prowling outside brutally snatched it away from me. ‘Warum?’ I asked in my poor German. ‘Hier ist kein warum’ [Here there is no why], he replied, pushing me inside with a shove."

His answer to the question "where was God?" was to reply there is no God. It was all meaningless suffering. On the other hand, Victor Frankl, another victim of the Holocaust, recognised some redemptive quality within suffering and sought comfort in the divine (he wasn't Christian, btw). Perhaps it isn't too to simplistic or crass to say that while Frankl was able to make some sense of it all, Levi's inability to understand the senseless cruelty was what eventually drove him to suicide. You might also be interested in reading what Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, author of the harrowing The Gulag Archipelago, had to say about suffering on the opposite side of the Iron Curtain.

Ultimately, I don't think there is much use in intellectualising suffering; attempting a complete answer in the face of such monstrous evil is doubtless doomed to failure and might cause great offence along the way. That is why the pathetic attempts at point-scoring that blighted this thread (now deleted) by the odd middle-class, leafy suburb, common or garden atheist are quite shameful.

The only responses I've found any way acceptable are those that focuses on hope - the hope of Christianity for all creation - while not trivialising the suffering. David Bentley Hart said it well when he wrote the following.

"As for comfort, when we seek it, I can imagine none greater than the happy knowledge that when I see the death of a child I do not see the face of God, but the face of His enemy. It is not a faith that would necessarily satisfy Ivan Karamazov, but neither is it one that his arguments can defeat: for it has set us free from optimism, and taught us hope instead. We can rejoice that we are saved not through the immanent mechanisms of history and nature, but by grace; that God will not unite all of history’s many strands in one great synthesis, but will judge much of history false and damnable; that He will not simply reveal the sublime logic of fallen nature, but will strike off the fetters in which creation languishes; and that, rather than showing us how the tears of a small girl suffering in the dark were necessary for the building of the Kingdom, He will instead raise her up and wipe away all tears from her eyes—and there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying, nor any more pain, for the former things will have passed away, and He that sits upon the throne will say, “Behold, I make all things new.”

Finally, you might find this talk by Os Guinness to be of interest. It's entitled Unspeakable: Facing Up to the Challenges of Evil and Suffering. Also, check out the Psalms - you'll find an ocean of tears in there.

Zombrex

0verblood wrote: »

What was a loving and caring god doing during this crisis?

Weeping at the evil of man?

TheBigLebowski

I don't think it would go too off topic if I asked where God was when the tsunami struck southeast Asia killing tens of thousands of people in 2005 when he could have stopped it?

Ok fair enough if you say we are free to do evil as well as good but the tsunami was a natural event which he could have stopped. He supposedly intervenes to save other people (chilean miners) but not southeast Asians?

ISAW

0verblood wrote: »

Many people were burnt alive inside of churches, where they went for sanctuary. They turned towards god, not away from him. What was he doing when the kids were crying out for his help as they were burning alive?

Burning with them - "as you do the the weakest of my children so you do to me."



Clearly the option of God WANTS tragedy to happen isn't the sole option
as you imagine it to be.

Someone is slapping a child and you have
the power to stop them and you chose not to does that means you can logically
conclude that you must be malevolent and that you want the event to happen?

Are you saying there are only two options?
Are you saying that if you can control or stop an event and you chose not
to control it then the outcome of that event is YOUR fault even if the
person doing it chose to do it and you advised them not to do it?

Now , relating it to Christianity:
If Christ decides to be
Human and not to use any god powers for his own benefit and used them to
prevent being crucified then would he not be breaking his own rules of
showing how he could live by human standards alone? In this example god is
able to act but does not if that action requires him to use powers which are
not within the capability of a human.

In fact if Christ used god powers to prevent all the bad things happening
then people could not do the same as him could they?
How could they follow his example if he used God powers to advance his
position?

I believe this is an issue has been covered before here and in the atheist forum.n I suggest you look up Leibniz and "natural evil" if you want a more comprehensive philosophical view.

ISAW

TheBigLebowski wrote: »

I don't think it would go too off topic if I asked where God was when the tsunami struck southeast Asia killing tens of thousands of people in 2005 when he could have stopped it?

Ok fair enough if you say we are free to do evil as well as good but the tsunami was a natural event which he could have stopped. He supposedly intervenes to save other people (chilean miners) but not southeast Asians?

I agree it is a related topic. "natural evil".

In the sense of agreeing with the laws of physics and physical body hit by
such tremendous momentum that it cause trauma or drowning then all who die
needed to die according to nature. Some may have been saved through what
you might call a miracle or others might term it an accident or just good luck.

The is another dimension of the above argument here as i see it. If for example god writes the laws of physics
and I use the laws of physics to drop a bowling ball on your head from a
great height then that is not God's fault is it?
But the bowling ball "needs to" obey the laws of physics.
Now neither bowling balls or storms or tsunamis are sentient beings having
choice. Nazis and child beaters however DO have a choice.


God sometimes may intervene. But it dose not prove God is malevolent not doing
so. does it?

...Is the conviction that acting unreasonably contradicts God's nature
merely a Greek idea, or is it always and intrinsically true? I believe that
here we can see the profound harmony between what is Greek in the best sense
of the word and the biblical understanding of faith in God. Modifying the
first verse of the Book of Genesis, the first verse of the whole Bible, John
began the prologue of his Gospel with the words: "In the beginning was the
?????". This is the very word used by the emperor: God acts, ??`? ????, with
logos. Logos means both reason and word - ...
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2006/september/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20060912_university-regensburg_en.html

What I am trying to get at here is:
God doesn't have a choice when it comes to changing the laws of logic. Even
though he could he agrees to be bound by them just as Christ apparently
could change stones into bread but didn't! Otherwise god would be unreasonable.
And God does not force people to live in flood planes or on coasts either .
People choose to live in the shadow of volcanoes.

PDN

Moderating Instruction

Can we keep this on the subject of human evil please?

We have discussed natural disasters, and theodicy, before in similar threads.

Des Carter

From my understanding God gave people free will (i.e the ability to choose what to do themselves). He also showed them how they SHOULD act (through bible and Jesus etc) and so the people in rwanda chose to do evil - if god intervened he would have taken away free will.

As for the tsunami that occured due to an earthquake and earthquakes and volcanos need to erupt/happen cause if they didnt the earth would over-heat and get destroyed.

0verblood

Ok fair enough he gave people the power of free will, which allowed the rebel soldiers to hack and maim as they pleased, but what about the people who just wanted peace? Why did millions of prayers go unanswered?

PDN

0verblood wrote: »

Ok fair enough he gave people the power of free will, which allowed the rebel soldiers to hack and maim as they pleased, but what about the people who just wanted peace? Why did millions of prayers go unanswered?

Miracles are, by definition, rare events. For the most part we have the free will to act as we choose, often with horrible consequences for others.

This morning I listened to Antoine Rutayisire, one of the members of Rwanda's National Unity and Reconciliation Commission. He shared some incredible stories of bravery, forgiveness and reconciliation.

For me, as a Christian, the overall picture in Rwanda is a reason to believe in God. I believe it takes something special for human beings to rise above their natural state of selfishness and show spark of the divine. In the end, this is the glory of the Christian Gospel, that God takes something as pathetic and wicked as our human nature and enables us to rise above ourselves.

ISAW

0verblood wrote: »

Ok fair enough he gave people the power of free will, which allowed the rebel soldiers to hack and maim as they pleased, but what about the people who just wanted peace? Why did millions of prayers go unanswered?

I would have thought that a prayer is admitting you don't know what will
happen in advance but are willing to accept the outcome if it is part of a
plan, even if you may think you are worse off in the meantime.
For example you may place all your money on a gamble and lose everything you
own. Later you might think that without sinking so low you would never have
abandonded the love of material wealth.

Do you really think that there was no point in a person at the time you
gambled thinking "lose" or "win"?

DO you think people should have no feelings at all about decisions others
take if those decisions do not directly affect them?

Latchy

Millions of people around the world have asked that same question OP ,same as when millions also asked what was god doing while the jewish genocide of world war two was happening .Simple answer is nobodys knows but then it all comes back to belief ,if you believe in god then the question torments .If you dont then you put it down by definition to the simple evil of man at work again , as it he done throughout the ages .

ISAW

Latchy wrote: »

Millions of people around the world have asked that same question OP ,same as when millions also asked what was god doing while the jewish genocide of world war two was happening .Simple answer is nobodys knows

Actually the simple answer given was a reason why God might not interfere.

but then it all comes back to belief ,

No actually it doesn't! The question is a philosophical question and has a valid answer whether or not one believes in God.

if you believe in god then the question torments .

Not necessarily. I believe a reasonable answer was supplied.

If you dont then you put it down by definition to the simple evil of man at work again , as it he done throughout the ages .

and what is this "evil" of which you speak? How do you define it?

Latchy

ISAW wrote: »

Actually the simple answer given was a reason why God might not interfere.

or to quote a simple old saying 'god works in mysterious ways ''

No actually it doesn't! The question is a philosophical question and has a valid answer whether or not one believes in God

That was my point ie, a non believer might look on the horror and say to himself '' no way would a caring loving god allow this to happen '' although that individual himself may be a capable, caring human being whos mind is made up by what he sees with his own eyes

Not necessarily. I believe a reasonable answer was supplied.

If I may look back onto human terms in recent history , millions of people believe Lee Oswald was in that 4th floor of the Texas School Book Depository and fired the rifle that killed the president ,his fingerprints were also on the rifle but it has neve being proved byond a shadow of a doubt that he was there in that room , not by FBI, CIA,Warren Commision ,House of representatives....nobody . So although we have many indicators to say somebody is / was /was not there , actual hard core evidence is required by many to really believe .

and what is this "evil" of which you speak? How do you define it?

As defined by in human terms , from the actions of an individual acting alone with his /her own thoughts, to the organisational skills of military officials who allow mass murders to take place .But as you know there are many ways and examples on how to define Evil

I never was much of a theologian

ISAW

Latchy wrote: »

or to quote a simple old saying 'god works in mysterious ways

Yes but that isn't a counter argument to prayer. In fact it supports the idea of pyayer inb spite of not knowing the outcome.

That was my point ie, a non believer might look on the horror and say to himself '' no way would a caring loving god allow this to happen ''

As might a believer but if they were logical and reasonable they wouldn't since the argument above offers a reasonable explanation.

although that individual himself may be a capable, caring human being who's mind is made up by what he sees with his own eyes

Indeed and may also be a believer.

If I may look back onto human terms in recent history , millions of people believe Lee Oswald was in that 4th floor of the Texas School Book Depository and fired the rifle that killed the president ,his fingerprints were also on the rifle but it has neve being proved byond a shadow of a doubt that he was there in that room , not by FBI, CIA,Warren Commision ,House of representatives....nobody . So although we have many indicators to say somebody is / was /was not there , actual hard core evidence is required by many to really believe .

One can follow that reasoning and if a photo or video of Oswald was taken they might say it was a doctored fake. No matter how far you go people will still not believe the truth. But there are those who don't see yet still believe.

As defined by in human terms , from the actions of an individual acting alone with his /her own thoughts, to the organisational skills of military officials who allow mass murders to take place .But as you know there are many ways and examples on how to define Evil

What is your way? You brought up the word. If evil is doing evil who defines what evil is? If you say it is only your own thoughts and you say it isn't evil then how can I say it is evil?

I never was much of a theologian

But you are asking questions related to theology.

StupidLikeAFox

I think a better question is if God had the ability to intervene in the brutal suffering of others, why didnt he?

Fanny Cradock

ColHol wrote: »

I think a better question is if God had the ability to intervene in the brutal suffering of others, why didnt he?

You assume he didn't where others assume he did.

Anyway, for what it is worth, here is a very interesting piece from Newsnight about Joshua Milton Blahyi - a man who brutally murdered and raped thousands and even indulged in cannibalism.

Who is to say for sure that he isn't a vile charlatan who has reinvented himself? For that matter, who is to say that he wasn't transformed by God?

JesterMinute

Jesus was on the cross being crucified when the people were being slaughtered. Free will - it means we can do just about whatever we like, for good or evil, and God respects our free will. Of course, there are eternal consequences to all our choices.

ISAW

ColHol wrote: »

I think a better question is if God had the ability to intervene in the brutal suffering of others, why didnt he?

I think it presupposes GOds didnt but
I think that has been answered abiove and in the theodicy/ natural evil thread.

DublinWriter

JesterMinute wrote: »

Jesus was on the cross being crucified when the people were being slaughtered. Free will - it means we can do just about whatever we like, for good or evil, and God respects our free will. Of course, there are eternal consequences to all our choices.

So basically, he's saying believe in my eternal love, or suffer my unending wrath?

Fanny Cradock

No, that is not what Christianity teaches.

philologos

Overblood, welcome back! (Is this a duplicate account?).

Personally as I would see it, your expectation of God to intervene whenever we mess things up is wholly simplistic. I can see why God wouldn't intervene in order to teach us a lesson about how we have dealt with other people.

If I am to hold the view that I can demand God to do what I want, He's not God any more He's just a glorified puppet. I'm God's string master. I don't believe this is true, therefore I would reject such an understanding.

wolfsbane

0verblood wrote: »

Almost a million people were hacked to death in 100days. I was recently in Rwanda, it's a beautiful country, but the same question repeated itself to me over and over: What was a loving and caring god doing during this crisis? I am an atheist but this is not an attempt at trolling.

Hi, Overblood
God was making sure all things work to the end He has predestined - the salvation of His people and the punishment of the wicked. To that end He permits some evils and restrains others. Why does He not stop all evil? Then He would have to stop the world. He could do that, but has chosen to put that Day of Judgement off to a time unknown to us - though we have His assurance it will not be too long.

So the issue is not Rwanda or Cambodia, etc. It is the life of everyone today - if God is to stop evil today, every unbeliever will be in hell tonight. I doubt any here demand that.

But it is fair to ask could He not limit the evil, rather than abolish it completely. Yes, He could. In fact He does - many evil plans are frustrated by God; men are not free to do as they will.

Why then allow some great evils? Because He knows best the mix of good and evil that will be a testimony and warning to mankind of God's goodness and their wickedness. We need reminders that God is kind and man is desperately wicked, left to his natural desires. God wants us to be sure He will freely forgive those who come to him, and be sure that we desperately need to be saved from our sinfulness.

A world free for the consequences of sin would not warn sinners of their sin and its eternal consequences. Better to experience the troubles of this sinful world and learn from them, than to sleep-walk one's way into hell.
_________________________________________________________________
Matthew 18:7 Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!

0verblood

Jakkass wrote: »

Overblood, welcome back! (Is this a duplicate account?).

Personally as I would see it, your expectation of God to intervene whenever we mess things up is wholly simplistic. I can see why God wouldn't intervene in order to teach us a lesson about how we have dealt with other people.

If I am to hold the view that I can demand God to do what I want, He's not God any more He's just a glorified puppet. I'm God's string master. I don't believe this is true, therefore I would reject such an understanding.

Yes it's me, I've been in Africa quite some time with dodgy internet access and just forgot my password!

I wouldn't call him a glorified puppet for intervening in the genocide. If he did intervene I'd actually highly respect him even though I don't believe in him (like the way I think John Mclane is awesome) but if that is the way Christians interpret the situation then so be it.

0verblood

By the way if you don't want your god to be a glorified puppet, why do you pray to him? Do you pray to him in the conventional way ie "oh god please help me pass this interview tomorrow" etc etc. I'm not sure if that's how Irish people pray, just guessing from the movies! But in Africa they definitely ask god for everything and anything.

bluecatmorgana

I would class myself as a spiritualist, so I dont follow the bible.

I think God doesnt intervene because he made us all perfect and views us as perfect and cannot see the bad, he only sees the good.

Pain and suffering are human conditions created by humans.

0verblood

I think God doesnt intervene because he made us all perfect and views us as perfect and cannot see the bad, he only sees the good.

He only sees the good? I could kill 29 people and rape 60 babies and get away with it as he cannot see the evil that I'm doing?

bnt

bluecatmorgana wrote: »

I think God doesnt intervene because he made us all perfect and views us as perfect and cannot see the bad, he only sees the good.

Pain and suffering are human conditions created by humans.

So what happened to that omniscient, infallible god who sees everything and never makes mistakes? The one with the plan? Are you channeling Terry Eagleton? :rolleyes:

Fanny Cradock

bnt wrote: »

So what happened to that omniscient, infallible god who sees everything and never makes mistakes? The one with the plan? Are you channeling Terry Eagleton? :rolleyes:

The poster isn't a Christian, so it doesn't automatically follow that (s)he believes God has such qualities.

philologos

0verblood wrote: »

By the way if you don't want your god to be a glorified puppet, why do you pray to him? Do you pray to him in the conventional way ie "oh god please help me pass this interview tomorrow" etc etc. I'm not sure if that's how Irish people pray, just guessing from the movies! But in Africa they definitely ask god for everything and anything.

Sometimes he can and does say no. I'm glad He has said no to some of my prayers. God will fulfil our prayers if they are in accordance with His will and if they are for His purposes.

This is why in the Lord's Prayer we say "Thy will be done on earth as is in heaven". We recognise that our will is subservient to God's. God knows better as to what is best, therefore we have to let Him determine.

I wouldn't dare to say that I am God's puppet master as this is blasphemy. In comparison to God, I am absolutely nothing.

tim_holsters

Seaneh wrote: »

It makes perfect sense.
You are basically asking why did God allow something so evil to happen. But in reality evil is just what happens when people turn away from God. It's what happens when you don't follow Gods two greatest commandments to humanity

“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” (Matthew 22)

If humanity followed the "Great Commandments" as they are known then stuff like what happened in Rwanda in 1994 and Yugoslavia between 1991 and 1995 would never happen.

You are asking why does God allow evil, why doesn't he eliminate evil, but if he was to eliminate all evil he would have to eliminate humanity because we (humans) have evil thoughts, all of us do. Whether they be things we as humans consider evil thoughts or not is neither here nor there, in Gods eyes it is sin and all sin is evil and all evil is equally offensive to God.

It seems like it's the other way around to me.

philologos

^^ It depends where you think evil comes from. If there is absolute good and evil, there is very little option other than that they are from God. If they are relative, they are so subject to change that good and evil become worthless. Which is it?

tim_holsters

Jakkass wrote: »

^^ It depends where you think evil comes from. If there is absolute good and evil, there is very little option other than that they are from God. If they are relative, they are so subject to change that good and evil become worthless. Which is it?

You should check out the Homo sapiens option.

PDN

tim_holsters wrote: »

You should check out the Homo sapiens option.

So you think absolute good and evil come from man? Like really?

tim_holsters

PDN wrote: »

So you think absolute good and evil come from man? Like really?

Absolute good and evil. Good and evil without the absolute, whatever you like.

You know better? Fair enough.

Where do they come from?

philologos

Relative morality is useless for dealing with moral / ethical disputes. Tom's morality may involve field shooting humans as a Sunday lunch activity, yet I am to regard his morality as perfectly valid in comparison to mine? Or is field shooting humans absolutely wrong?
If it is, why it is absolutely wrong? Why can't field shooting humans "be right for Tom", but not for me, why can't I just agree to disagree, whatever floats Tom's boat right?

tim_holsters

Jakkass you have me confused mate.

It's certainly my own belief that field shooting of humans is wrong.

philologos

I used an obvious example, for obvious reasons.

If field shooting of humans is wrong, why it is wrong?
If it is wrong, is it universally wrong, or only subjectively wrong (It's OK for Tom, but not for me)?
If it is absolutely wrong, why it is absolutely wrong?

tim_holsters

My point regarding the concept of good and evil and it's provenance is since there isn't the slightest evidence that God exists but there is ample evidence that we do therefore the said concepts must originate with us.

I can't say more than that.

Fanny Cradock

Of course there is evidence that God exists - you either haven't encountered it or dismiss it out of hand.

0verblood

Jakkass wrote: »

I used an obvious example, for obvious reasons.

If field shooting of humans is wrong, why it is wrong?
If it is wrong, is it universally wrong, or only subjectively wrong (It's OK for Tom, but not for me)?
If it is absolutely wrong, why it is absolutely wrong?

It's wrong because if everybody killed everybody else there would be nobody left.

Genghiz Cohen

0verblood wrote: »

It's wrong because if everybody killed everybody else there would be nobody left.

To expand,
The gene-pool needs diversity. Species that kill off their own kind find them selves extinct quite quickly.

tim_holsters

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Of course there is evidence that God exists - you either haven't encountered it or dismiss it out of hand.

Come on now you could at least provide a pic.

wolfsbane

0verblood wrote: »

It's wrong because if everybody killed everybody else there would be nobody left.

So? How do you know that is a bad thing? Some earth-worshippers might disagree. On what basis could you say they are wrong?
________________________________________________________________
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

Fanny Cradock

tim_holsters wrote: »

Come on now you could at least provide a pic.

It's rather off the point, but seems as you asked...

Fanny Cradock

0verblood wrote: »

It's wrong because if everybody killed everybody else there would be nobody left.

But we aren't talking about the self-determined extinction of our entire species.

wolfsbane wrote: »

So? How do you know that is a bad thing? Some earth-worshippers might disagree. On what basis could you say they are wrong?

That is a fair point. People like Peter Singer would argue that giving special privilege to humans over against any other species is nothing more than speciesism.