is it a criminal offence to teach explicit violent material at primary school

jcello

my 9yr old mildly autistic son was taught in great detail about the nightmare on elm street movies and the Halloween movies at at his primary school in west cork. several of his assessments from his A.S.D team have references to how he copies characters from films and TV. His school had these assessments yet chose to teach him in graphic detail about these films. These so called school projects were kept secret from me and my wife until we got our hands on the Halloween project. All work on the nightmare on elm street was destroyed. Shortly after the Halloween project started my son was suspended for taking a kitchen knife into school (the project was continued). Unknown to us (but not to other parents at the school) my son started stabbing pupils and staff with pencils and telling people he had slit his sisters throat. The school would do things like shut him in the porter cabin and barricade him in the classroom. About 5 weeks after the knife incident my son grabbed a pupils throat and threatened to strangle her because she had been teasing him ever since his teacher had told the class (in front of him) that he was different. The first we heard of this incident was 6 days later when we were handed with a ten day suspension. This is when I found the school project on the 18 cert Halloween movies. Every violent incident in my sons school record mirrors something in that project. The board of management spread vexatious gossip about our son leaving him socially isolated and us unable to get him into a new school. The department of education, the diocese of cork ross and cloyne, the ministry of education, the H.S.E will not investigate our complaints (the H.S.E are doing a mock investigation) every time we turn to these bodies we have either been given the run around or met with verbal abuse and lies (some of which I have audio recorded). Radio shows we have tried to air it on have told us they are not allowed to talk about it. The guards have told us they can't investigate unless a criminal offence has been committed. That is why I asked the Question " Is it a criminal offence to teach explicit violent material at primary school?" At the moment my son is receiving no state education as every school we have tried to enrol him in has refused and we can't get a home tuition grant because his old school still has a place open for him.

holystungun9

Hi op,

i'm in shock, I can't even answer your question to be honest. I know that there are two sides to every story but are you seriously saying that this situation has arisen in modern Ireland. As someone who works with kids daily I can't begin to get my head round this story. If everything you say is correct I cannot believe that is how your child has been treated by his educators. Shocking stuff.

jcello

yes this situation has arisen in modern Ireland and I'm not the only parent to be given the run around by the department e.t.c. I have spoken to other parents from around the country whose children have been abused or assaulted by teachers that have been met with the same barriers as us. I am currently doing research for an article on the subject. The only person who has shown interest so far has been the education editor for the Irish independent. Professionals within the educational system that have seen my sons school project have been disgusted by the content but none will say that on record.

byhookorbycrook

I'm trying to understand this, did the school choose the project?Was he watching the film in school?

ljgalway

As a Primary School Teacher myself, I am so shocked and saddened that your son has been put through and is most likely still going through this trauma.
I teach 6th class and I would never show a movie with a rating other than PG, even though some of my girls are 12, I wouldn't risk showing a 12 rated movie for fear something in it would upset them in some way.
I'm not sure that it's a criminal offence to teach explicit violent material...I would have thought it wouldn't need to be an offence, a teacher should have more sense than to expose a young child to violent material!
However, isn't there a warning on dvd's that they aren't supposed to be shown to groups on like...oil rigs,prisons etc...? have a sneaky feeling that schools are on that list. If they are, isn't that a criminal offence? I could be totally wrong though!

jcello

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I'm trying to understand this, did the school choose the project?Was he watching the film in school?

The headmaster said my son choose the project subject. I don't think he watched the films. The project was researched on the internet in the resource room mainly on a one to one basis and it was printed in the school office. The front cover of the project is a print out of the film poster (a hand shaking a butcher knife). The project was started before my son took a knife into school. even though all my sons assessments had references to him copying film and tv characters, it was continued with him for for over a month. When we eventually found the project with his school books we had a meeting with the board of management and (of course)they saw no connection with the project and my son taking a knife into school and his behaviour becoming violent. My sons record at that school for his first 3 years consisted of - 3 minor incidents and no suspensions, to during and after the project - over 30 violent reports in the incident book and 19 days suspension in less than one school year. As I said before most of the incidents and the project were kept secret from me and my wife, some of the incidents from nov/dec 2009 we only became aware of less than a month ago, whereas the schools we have tried to enrol him into and the local community seem to be well aware of them.

byhookorbycrook

At the very least, the resource teacher is guilty of extremely poor judgement.I find childen work better on projects where the subject matter engages them but there is NO way I'd let a child undertake something like this.

The BOM are supposed to be bound by confidentiality, so if you have proof of gossip being spread, you need to query this.

There is an agreed complaints procedure, the DES will keep bouncing you back to the school ,so make sure you follow it to the letter of the law.

Have you been in touch with the SENO and NEWB re schooling?

Baz_

i honestly find it very difficult to believe any of that happened to be honest.

However, on the off chance that it did, head down to your local friendly Garda Station, demand to make a statement of complaint bringing any corroborating evidence that you have to hand (including your son). If you get no satisfaction initially, demand to speak to a Sergeant. If you get no satisfaction then, right into your local Superintendent. I'm not sure if any criminal offence has been committed to be honest as I stopped reading once the allegations reached my limits of my unquestioning believability. I stopped reading at about the stage where you said that they locked your child in a portakabin, whatever about the teaching of the violent material (which could be written off as an attempt to teach the difference between fantasy and reality) as a parent I would be most distressed to hear if my child was locked in a portakabin at any stage for any reason. It sounds like its tantamount to unlawful detention which is a criminal offence.

jcello

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

At the very least, the resource teacher is guilty of extremely poor judgement.I find childen work better on projects where the subject matter engages them but there is NO way I'd let a child undertake something like this.

The BOM are supposed to be bound by confidentiality, so if you have proof of gossip being spread, you need to query this.

There is an agreed complaints procedure, the DES will keep bouncing you back to the school ,so make sure you follow it to the letter of the law.

Have you been in touch with the SENO and NEWB re schooling?

we have been in touch with the SENO and NEWB and are at present going through the motions of a section 29. I have spoken and written to both the guards and the BOM about confidentiality but the damage has already been done and other than a caution from the guards nothing has been done. Every department e.t.c. we have complained to has sent us back to the BOM except the diocese who wont even respond to our complaints/allegations.

jcello

Baz_ wrote: »

i honestly find it very difficult to believe any of that happened to be honest.

However, on the off chance that it did, head down to your local friendly Garda Station, demand to make a statement of complaint bringing any corroborating evidence that you have to hand (including your son). If you get no satisfaction initially, demand to speak to a Sergeant. If you get no satisfaction then, right into your local Superintendent. I'm not sure if any criminal offence has been committed to be honest as I stopped reading once the allegations reached my limits of my unquestioning believability. I stopped reading at about the stage where you said that they locked your child in a portakabin, whatever about the teaching of the violent material (which could be written off as an attempt to teach the difference between fantasy and reality) as a parent I would be most distressed to hear if my child was locked in a portakabin at any stage for any reason. It sounds like its tantamount to unlawful detention which is a criminal offence.

his SNA said they never actually locked the door. She and other children have said they would regularly shut him in on his own while a teacher stood outside leaving him to tantrum and scream, even though we had said if our son was ever distressed at school my wife was always on call and would pick him up straight away. On one occasion my daughter was in the playground crying because of how distressed her brother was and asked if she could go in and calm him down (because she knows that shutting him in a room alone just made him worse) and they refused to let her in and didn't call us either. I wouldn't call it bad judgement if you were to read his project you would agree it was just plain wrong. A lot of the time after my sons interest in horror was fuelled he was left unattended at the computer in his classroom and researched murderers and suicides on wikipedia while his SNA would be used as a stand in for the junior class (unfortunately due to my sons autism he becomes obsessed with subjects.The trick is to keep it appropriate).

PcAngel

JCello :
I find it hard to believe that your son took a knife to school and you were not informed.
On what grounds are the other schools refusing to take your son?

jcello

PcAngel wrote: »

JCello :
I find it hard to believe that your son took a knife to school and you were not informed.
On what grounds are the other schools refusing to take your son?

Hi PcAngle. we were informed about him taking a knife into school (he received a 3 day in house suspension ). What we were not informed of was the school work he was doing at the time which as I said was continued with him for several weeks. Also we were not informed about the violent incidents that took place over the following weeks until we received a 10 day suspension notice on 18/12/2009. Unfortunately other parents had been told on 17/12/2009 that he had already been suspended so to put their minds at ease a barricade of desks was built in the corner of the classroom (to the best of my knowledge by the headmaster and my sons class teacher) and my son was told he had to stay behind it and couldn't join the rest of the class because he was dangerous and couldn't be trusted.
The grounds for which my son is being refused enrolments to a new school on the record is unanimously that they can't meet his needs. Off the record one headmistress said it was because they had heard the gossip about my son and were afraid that other parents would remove their children from the school if my son was to go there.

jcello

Hi Baz or anyone else if you want to view my sons school project, right click on the icon at the end of this sentence, click on open image in another tab, log into facebook and it should take you straight there.

Snipped Project - D4RK ONION

kona

Sorry, but, when I was six my mam and dad helped me with school projects etc.
How the hell did you not know straight away that he was doing this project? I find it hard to believe that a teacher would allow this, on the teachers part its pretty stunningly stupid on every level.

jcello

kona wrote: »

Sorry, but, when I was six my mam and dad helped me with school projects etc.
How the hell did you not know straight away that he was doing this project? I find it hard to believe that a teacher would allow this, on the teachers part its pretty stunningly stupid on every level.

That's the same question me and my wife have been asking for nearly a year now and still haven't had an answer yet!

D4RK ONION

Feel free to discuss this issue, but please leave any personal details regarding yourself or the school out. Boards.ie is not the place for that.

Kona, less aggression please

If people can not discuss this maturely, I'll be forced to lock the thread.

Thanks.

ann101

I really feel like there has to more to this story. I cannot believe that all this happened to your son and not one other adult in the school thought to call it to anyone's attention. As a teacher, I am just so shocked that this happened in this day and age.
Do you normally have a good relationship with your son's teacher and SNA?
Have you had a meeting with the teacher since the incident?
Does your son like school/ seem happy in school normally?
Has he ever told you about being mis-treated there?
Are you friends with any of the other parents? What did they think of this project?
My heart goes out to you because it all just sounds so wrong. Have you tried to arrange a meeting with your son's psychologist? WOuld a special school be something that could be considered?

jcello

ann101 wrote: »

I really feel like there has to more to this story. I cannot believe that all this happened to your son and not one other adult in the school thought to call it to anyone's attention. As a teacher, I am just so shocked that this happened in this day and age.
Do you normally have a good relationship with your son's teacher and SNA?
Have you had a meeting with the teacher since the incident?
Does your son like school/ seem happy in school normally?
Has he ever told you about being mis-treated there?
Are you friends with any of the other parents? What did they think of this project?
My heart goes out to you because it all just sounds so wrong. Have you tried to arrange a meeting with your son's psychologist? WOuld a special school be something that could be considered?

personally I think it was a deliberate attempt to manipulate my sons behaviour. If I hadn't got my hands on my sons school work I am sure we would never have been told about it, and his violent behavior would have got him expelled.

We had a very open relationship with his SNA. I wont go into any more details lets just say I've learnt a lot.

There were so many incidents and we have been to everyone from the teacher to minister Mary Coughlan (except the ombudsman for children as yet) and still no answers.

My son was very happy at school until his old teacher lost her job as she was only on a temperary contract. since the employment of the new teacher the schools attendance has gone from around 60 to 17 pupils and I still get reports from locals that the headmaster tells people that my son is to blame for the scholls attendance. If that is so then why have none of the people that have left returned since we withdrew our son.

We have managed to get some information from my son but most information has come from other children and his SNA.

We are still friends with a few parents that used to have children at that school. Most that have seen his school work are shocked and keep on telling us we should complain to X Y and Z but what they don't seem to understand is that in this case X Y and Z wont respond. freedom of speach has gone out of the window and our freedom of information rights for school records e.t.c dont seem to exist either.

My son psycologist is a great guy he goes above and beyond the call of duty. He even got in contact after midnight recently when we left a message about our son wanting to kill himself, but he will not comment or get involved with my sons old school. As far as a special school goes, CAMHS, the educational psycologist and us agree it wouldn't suit my son. He doesn't have an interlectual disability, he is exceptionally bright and a special school would be bad for his self esteem.

Chuchoter

He is 6. How could he find out about an 18s film, research it to such an extent and use a computer by himself with no-one noticing? How did he get a knife? Although the school is at fault, you also have some part to play in this. Did you not ask him what he had been doing in school today? To be honest this all sounds fairly unbelievable, but if he is that impressionable and takes things to such an extent maybe he would be safer in a special school. The other thing would be, that if there is all this talk of suicide and murder, is something deeper going on with him. What does the psychologist say?

jcello

crayolastereo wrote: »

He is 6. How could he find out about an 18s film, research it to such an extent and use a computer by himself with no-one noticing? How did he get a knife? Although the school is at fault, you also have some part to play in this. Did you not ask him what he had been doing in school today? To be honest this all sounds fairly unbelievable, but if he is that impressionable and takes things to such an extent maybe he would be safer in a special school. The other thing would be, that if there is all this talk of suicide and murder, is something deeper going on with him. What does the psychologist say?

9yrs old. It is obvious he didn't do it on his own. It was edited and punctuated beyond my sons capabilities, it was printed in the school office, the way it was glued and set out (neatly with all the corners of the pages matching) with my sons fine motor skills and lack of coordination it was not him that did that either. Also the fact that other children in the school have since told us that the resource teacher was doing it with him and the school initially told us that it had been done with the resource teacher. It is only since we opened an official complaint that the school have said that none of the teachers knew anything about the content.

He took the knife out of our kitchen draw. We made him very aware of how wrong this was at the time (which must have conflicted with what he was learning at school). He had never taken a knife before that time and has never taken one since.

Yes we did talk about school regularly with him. He would some times tell us he had hurt someone. Stupidly as the teacher had not mentioned anything to us and he had a green card in his homework journal (green good day, orange challenging day, red bad day or serious incident) we assumed that these incidents weren't that serious. He never talked about his school project/s until we found it and quite casually told us what it was as if it was normal.

We kept him out of school for a couple of months after his second suspension because we thought he and other kid around him were not safe. We spent this time building up his self esteem and channelling his interests away from horror and only when we thought he was ok enough to go back to school did we send him back. We had several meetings with the school including ones with just the headmaster where he told us not to worry that after the summer holidays my son would be in his class and things would get better when he moved out of the present teachers class. We once again stupidly thought that with all that had gone on that the school wouldn't put a foot out of line. Towards the end of the summer term my son got a 1day suspension for some safety issue that I knew was bull. I have since been told that it was around the same time as his class teacher had an inspector in to get her sanctioning from the department (a teacher we had been told had been employed because experience in special needs, who in fact had none). For me the final straw was when he got a 5 day suspension for the last five days of the summer term, meaning he missed all the school trips etc, even though I had volunteered to go on the trips etc as support. My son had got into a play ground scuffle with another pupil (once again this was due to the school going against what was written down in his IEP) . The other boy got to write 20 lines as his punishment. My wife was still holding on to the hope that things would get better in September when he moved into the headmasters class. The headmaster sent us a form to register our son for the next year and forms for funding and when we had returned them he sent us and other parents a text saying that we would be pleased to hear that the class teacher would be staying on (everyone thought she was leaving as the attendance had gone so low) and that he had decided to move down to the junior room. Of course that was it for us so we pulled our son out of the school, Also at this news one of the parent reps on the BOM resigned and pulled his kid out of the school, disgusted at how corrupt the head was.

A special school wouldn't be a good place for him unless it was something like a Steiner school which unfortunately there isn't one anywhere near us. He didn't have any problems for his first three years with his old teacher and was very happy at school. communication was very good with us at this time, so that when problems were brewing we managed to sort them before anything serious happened. Besides we didn't expect that things like Halloween and Nightmare On Elmstreet would be on my 8/9 yr old sons curriculum.

As far a any psychologist etc goes involving what my son was exposed to at his last school I'm sure both you and me know they are underfunded don't have the resources. The meetings and assessments they have had with him have been about ticking boxes, not actually helping him. I grew up with an autistic brother, I worked in the mental health department of South East Kent Health Authority over in England, my step mother has published literature on autism and with our combined knowledge and the fact that as parents me and my wife know our son better than anyone, we are sure that he is no risk to anyone (unless they are allergic to marmalade sandwiches as Paddington Bear is what he is into at the moment along with making his own stop motion animation movies). Since he has left that school I don't know of one violent incident that my son has had (nearly 5 months). He has had really bad self esteem problems and about a month ago I stopped working to give him more input and positive reinforcement and he is really starting to get back on track. I just hope we can get him into a good school that wants him soon as this is starting to cause real financial stress on me and my wife.

D4RK ONION

I think the original question has been answered, and for the safety of both this site and yourself (legally), I think we should leave it there.

Closed.