Cat going to kill my kitten - help?

R0C

I got a kitten from my friend's farm 4 months ago, he was two months old at the time. I took him to live at my house and he settled in very well. After about a month of being there he became very rough when playing and has a tendency to bite at fingers and hands constantly. He's becoming increasingly rougher as time has passed, but can also be the sweetest, most cuddly caring cat you'll ever meet, happy to sit on your shoulder for hours while you surf the internet, or sleep on your chest purring and licking at your hands.

He's 6 months old now and has been on his own and constantly seeking fun.
I felt sorry for him spending a lot of the day on his own while I'm at work so when my friend told me the same cat's mother had another batch of kittens (in both cases she abandoned the kittens at a very early stage before they could even drink alone) I thought it would be great to take one, a full sibling to the one I already had, so they could keep each other company.

I've had many cats over the years, usually two tom cats or two females, and they always bonded great when put together, no matter how young or old they were. But then I've never had a tom cat with so much personality before.

I took the new one a week ago, she was five weeks old at this time.

Since the two have met, the older male has done his best to kill the tiny female. At first it seemed like just some rough play, but as the week has passed, I have watched him become more and more vicious towards her.

At the moment, there is absolutely no way I could leave them alone for a moment together. I have spent a full week sprinkling water onto the male every time he attacks her, hoping he'd learn, but no such luck. He stops fighting, runs away, shakes himself off then immediately returns to attacking her.

He pins her down on the ground and uses his full strength to bite her neck.
I've tried to stand back and watch to see if it really is as horrible as it seems, but end it the second the tiny kitten begins to squeal.

It just seems to be impossible to teach the tom cat to stop. The female is too tiny to have any chance in fighting him back.

It genuinely seems to be pure jealousy. The male can't focus on anything else when she is there, and he doesn't seem to want a mate, he just wants rid of her. The second she is out of sight, he becomes a lovely sweet playful tom cat again. But if he knows she's nearby, he's stalking around the place trying to find her, searching, and nothing will distract him.

Oddly, they're most peaceful at feeding time, when he just snarls and hisses at her. But he allows her to eat. He pounces on her as soon as she is finished.

The second he thinks I'm out of sight, he gets most violent with her and always pins her to the floor on her back and covers her neck fully with his mouth, biting hard. I know from having him bite my hand that it wouldn't take much of that to kill her.

My housemates and I have become extremely attached to both cats separately, and while I've considered returning one to the farm, the previous owners do not want them and two of the kittens siblings have already been killed by getting in the way of farm machinery.

If there is any way at all to work with this, I will. For now, I keep the kitten inside during the day and the cat stays out. Then in the evening I rotate them for a few hours, I also visit them twice during my work day, and allow them a few minutes monitored time together.

I can keep doing this for another while, I'm hoping the kitten will grow quickly and be able to fight him back, but there's little point in me making any effort with them if I'm going to have the tom kill the female in 6 months time the moment I turn my back, after all that work to get them used to each other.

I don't want to think what he would do to her when I'm not watching.

Has anyone encountered anything like this before?

I took the tom to the vet to see about getting him neutered but the vet said it is too soon and to come back in January at the earliest. That's a long wait!

I'd love to get some advice from someone who's had a similar issue.
Thanks.

toadfly

Hi OP,

first off I know very little about kittens/cats so cant really help with your issue.

Did the vet say they couldn't neuter the cat? I thought cats could get done earlier than dogs who can get done at 6 months. I would get another vets opinion on this IMO.

Also can you have a chat to your neighbour about getting their cats neutered? Its really unfair on the kittens when the mother cat doesnt feed them and some are getting killed by machinery.

R0C

Vet examined my tom cat closely and told me that he wasn't yet developed enough to be neutered, and to come back in January. He mentioned that early neutering would cause the cat not to grow fully into an adult tom cat.

That wasn't my regular vet, he was away on holiday, so I'm thinking about getting a second opinion.

I've already suggested to them that they get the cats neutered but it's not really my place to tell them what to do, all I can do is suggest. Meanwhile I'm happy to provide a safe, warm home to some of the offspring but I'm questioning if the kitten would be far safer on the farm where she isn't going to be murdered by another cat.

The Sweeper

Get a second opinion on neutering your tom. At six months he's capable of fathering a litter. Plus cats of eight weeks onwards are routinely neutered before rehoming in the US and Australia, where it's compulsory to desex a cat before rehoming.

At five weeks your female was far too young to be taken from her mother. She needed another three, preferably five weeks with her mother and siblings.

What you've basically done is combined a juvenile animal with a baby animal, and the result is predictable - he's beating the crap out of her. Cats have no sibling love or automatic companionship due to being related.

If you can continue to separate them but monitor combined time closely, their relationship may ease off and he won't 'kill her' in six months time, but you need to reintroduce them gently after some time apart.

Rotating them indoors and out doesn't help matters - basically you're artificially throwing him out of his territory every day and allowing her claim it, then bringing him back in. You'd be better off cordoning off parts of the house that are separate spaces for the two of them, and giving them a single neutral space, like your living room, where nobody but you is boss.

If he's mounting her and biting her neck, it's both dominant and sexual behaviour. You'd be better off giving her some space away from him where he can be indoors and she can too, but he can't get to her when you're not home. With him six months and her five weeks, I wince at the size and weight difference between them - I adore cats, but you've basically handed a baby to a sexual predator. Little wonder you're getting the result you're getting. He needs to be desexed and you need to set up some physical territory boundaries for both cats so they can start over from scratch.

R0C

The Sweeper wrote: »

Get a second opinion on neutering your tom. At six months he's capable of fathering a litter. Plus cats of eight weeks onwards are routinely neutered before rehoming in the US and Australia, where it's compulsory to desex a cat before rehoming.

At five weeks your female was far too young to be taken from her mother. She needed another three, preferably five weeks with her mother and siblings.

What you've basically done is combined a juvenile animal with a baby animal, and the result is predictable - he's beating the crap out of her. Cats have no sibling love or automatic companionship due to being related.

If you can continue to separate them but monitor combined time closely, their relationship may ease off and he won't 'kill her' in six months time, but you need to reintroduce them gently after some time apart.

Rotating them indoors and out doesn't help matters - basically you're artificially throwing him out of his territory every day and allowing her claim it, then bringing him back in. You'd be better off cordoning off parts of the house that are separate spaces for the two of them, and giving them a single neutral space, like your living room, where nobody but you is boss.

If he's mounting her and biting her neck, it's both dominant and sexual behaviour. You'd be better off giving her some space away from him where he can be indoors and she can too, but he can't get to her when you're not home. With him six months and her five weeks, I wince at the size and weight difference between them - I adore cats, but you've basically handed a baby to a sexual predator. Little wonder you're getting the result you're getting. He needs to be desexed and you need to set up some physical territory boundaries for both cats so they can start over from scratch.

Just to be clear, I haven't just snatched the kitten away from her mother. The mother had abandoned five kittens in this litter, two of whom then got killed. My friend's family were feeding them with a syringe (not cows milk!) and I had been doing this in shifts for them also where possible, as of about two weeks ago they all became capable of drinking from a bowl.

I could have left this kitten on the farm, motherless, for another few weeks but I have no doubt she would have been dead by then. They were living in a shed full of tractors and heavy machinery and darting in and out between it continually.

The remaining two kittens have also been adopted at this point, there was no option of leaving them with their mother.

The mother cat also abandoned the tom cat I have, going off wandering somewhere away from the farm while the kittens remained in the box she had given birth to them in. She never returned to feed them or see if they were okay. We had cameras on the box (I currently have both cats monitored by CCTV also while I'm away from the house) and she did not return.

Anyway, thanks for your feedback. I'll take him to another vet this evening and see about neutering, I'm not sure if it'll make a difference but I can only hope.

He doesn't mount her in that manner, he doesn't seem to have any interest in her in that way, he just pins her down on her back to the floor, with her belly facing towards him, and bites the underside of her neck, beneath her mouth. He keeps her held down with his paws while standing above her and just goes for her neck each time biting for as long as he can get away with it, which is very short as I take him away. He also tries to smack her fact with his paws but doesn't seem to use nails when he does this.

R0C

The Sweeper wrote: »

Rotating them indoors and out doesn't help matters - basically you're artificially throwing him out of his territory every day and allowing her claim it, then bringing him back in. You'd be better off cordoning off parts of the house that are separate spaces for the two of them, and giving them a single neutral space, like your living room, where nobody but you is boss.

Also, I've done precisely this. I've not been clear in explaining how I'm working their territories, but they're not crossing the same places, they are both allowed enter the living room but otherwise I have been very careful not to put the kitten into the places that the tom cat probably felt were his previously. This goes for indoors and out. Kitten can use front garden. Tom cat has never been in it. He has the rear.

The kitten is confined to one area and they have one mutual place, the living room, which is the only place they meet together and I constantly monitor them, none of this seems to make any difference.

mymo

I would definitely seek a second opinion on the neutering, my vet does the op from 4 months up, once the cat is a good weight there's no problem.
I would do as suggested and keep them in separate parts of the house, this will allow the kitten a safe place, and help calm the male. Once neutered his aggression should ease off, but it may take a few weeks. The kitten will get bigger and stronger and then try re-introducing them.
The female should be neutered as soon as she's big enough, my uncle had a stray kitten turn up a few months ago, we estimated it to be about 6 weeks(eyes still blue) and she has had a litter of kittens already(only 2 and both died) and she was about 5 months when she got pregnant. Thankfully she's been caught and neutered now, and is a lovely cat.

Any chance of getting a loan of a cat trap and catching the mother, you could get her neutered and stop the kitten cycle.

R0C

Thanks for your response, mymo.

The tom cat is probably still quite small overall, but fingers crossed a different vet will have a different opinion as the aggression needs to go.

I'll be neutering the female also but that's a while off yet!

ISDW

Definitely get a second opinion, 6 months is absolutely fine for a tom cat to be neutered. You should also get the new kitten spayed as early as possible, cats can and do have litters from a very early age.

Sweeper has tons of experience with cats, so if it was me in this position, I would definitely be listening to her (I assume its a her?) advice.

Best of luck with them both.

The Sweeper

R0C, there's research into hormones that show that if an animal is left intact until adolescence, the rush of hormones they get affects their growth in certain ways. Desexing them earlier than that adolescence prevents that rush of hormones, but it doesn't stunt their growth. In fact, that rush of hormones usually triggers (and I'm putting this very simply because I'm not medical) something like sealing of the growth plates at the ends of bones. Without the hormonal rush, early desexed animals tend to grow taller or longer than their late desexed counterparts.

It's a reason that breeders here are fighting laws that say animals must be desexed before rehoming - it's law with shelters and pounds, but not law with private sales. Dog breeds destined for the show ring but not for breeding won't make it to the show ring if desexed early, because they're likely to be disproportionate in terms of breed standards if they're desexed at 10 weeks - a tall body and possibly a small head.

The behaviour you describe is part play, part dominance, part teenaged humping. Most cats when playing will grab each other either by the scruff or around the throat. The hold will often be interspersed with bouts of 'forced grooming' - one of them'll get the other in a headlock, wash their face and head and then bite them.

I'm not surprised the feral mum was rejecting her kittens early. Kittens do best when with mum for longer - eight to 10 weeks, but many outdoor cats who have repeated litters won't tolerate the kittens past weaning, which is four to five weeks, because they'll start to call again and be off having another litter two months later.

The problem with separation from mum AND litter early is that the kittens don't learn etiquette of play - when rough and tumbling with kittens of a similar size and age, they're just like puppies - lots of mouthing and claws and somersaults, and when something hurts the hurt party will yelp or yowl and withdraw from play for a moment. Your female kitten is trying to do that at the moment but the male never learned any manners and is persisting past that point.

Other than the desexing, you can help reset his behaviour by changing how you interact with him. Never, ever play with your male kitten with your hands - by that, I mean don't play by rubbing his fur all over the place and flipping him with your hand so he somersaults and then grabs your hand and play bites. Don't play by wiggling your fingers like a lure so he jumps at them. Don't play by running your fingers up and down a surface that he watches like a loon before pouncing. All of those play forms teach kittens bad manners when it comes to human hands - they get used to pouncing on, biting and scratching at hands, and they'll get to the point where they can break the skin very, very quickly. A learned behaviour can never be unlearned, so when it's instilled you have to work harder to break it.

Any games with your boy need to have you on one end of a long lure and him on the other end - the latest rage in cat toys is a fibreglass wand with a whippy string and a toy at the end of it - Da Bird is feathers, Da Mouse or somesuch is a fabric mouse. Plenty of distance for you to keep your hands safe, and plenty of frantic activity for the cat.

All of the interactions that both your male and female cats have with you and your housemates from here on out should be gentle - nothing but cuddles and strokes, and you must immediatey yelp and withdraw those cuddles and strokes if either cat bites or claws. If you want to play with the cat, cuddle it first, then set it firmly on the floor in front of you so there's space between you, and then let it see you produce the toy, so it learns that play is separate from you physically.

See when we get young kittens and we play with them with our hands, our hands take the place of their litter siblings. However, we're never going to hurt the kitten by scratching or pinching or slapping with our hands, so they don't learn play etiquette from us in this way, hence we have to change how we teach it.

In terms of them interacting with each other, give them separate food, water and litter trays in different parts of the house, preferably rooms where they can be totally separate - e.g. she has one room that he's never allowed in, and he has one room that she's never allowed into. This has the added bonus of giving the cats their own space where they can feel safe, which can do a lot to settle them.

Kittens are pretty full on - any time they spend together in the living area, as the communal neutral space, will need to be supervised because he'll always go to put the smackdown on her. You might be able to change the nature of the time they spend in there by having one person interacting with each kitten near each other, but not letting them get too rough with each other.

The biting IS a problem - if he breaks the skin, as a young kitten with her immune system not developed yet, she can easily get an abscess and you'll be down the vet paying for an antibiotic. If you can get her as far as 12 weeks, she'll be better able to account for herself, especially if you can use the intervening time to feed her up, and settle him by changing how you interact with him.

Also beware letting him outdoors at this time of his life if I read you right and you're allowing him out - he's just bang on the right age to start heading off roaming for days at a time following calling females, and you may find he simply never returns and you won't be quite sure what happened to him.

Your kitten shouldn't be outdoors unsupervised at all - she's too small, no immunity and no full vaccs, and she's at a very high risk of attack from other animals and disease from other animals.

Good luck with them - sounds like you have your hands full.

Shazanne

Could you get someone to take the kitten for a while to let her develop more and gain better strength. It does not sound fair to her to have her being constantly afraid of the bigger cat. Her happiness must come first and even if it means you sacrificing having her around, at least you'd know she's safe.
The fact of the matter is (and I have had many animals over the years) that sometimes animals just do not get along together. I had the most awful situation many years ago where my dog, Toto, had a litter and I kept a male and a female pup. However, the bigger the female pup grew the worse her relationship with Toto became. They fought bitterly and it made both dogs totally miserable. I tried everything I could. I had two runs built in the garden and rotated the two females several times a day. Both femals got on great with the male. I also tried to rehome both females (at different times) but Toto pined terribly and the female pup had become viscious so was sent back to me. It came to a head when they had a terrible fight one evening and the pup left Toto for dead. I was devastated and knew it could not be allowed to continue. So I made the awful decision to have the pup put to sleep, even though it broke my heart. But I knew she could not be re-homed successfully and it was the only option open to me. There was no such thing as socialisation classes or anything at that time. Within a short time Toto was back to her happy and loving self and she went on to live to be 18 and a half years old, when she died from cancer.
This type of story is probably not what you want to hear but sometimes you have to make really tough and horrible decisions for the sake of a pet. I chose to keep Toto as she had been there first and was a sweet and loveable little thing. I never forgot the pup and I have a framed photo of her in the house, but I think I did the right thing for the right reasons.

Meeoow

your tomcat may not change his attitude to the kitten just because of neutering.
i began feeding a stray cat, and my cat (who is neutered) ran it straight away.
there is no way he would accept another cat on his territory.
your cat feels put out, and it might be unfair to take another kitten into his space.

The Sweeper

Meeoow, as the tom is only six months old there's still a lot of room there for him to learn to integrate with another cat so I wouldn't be giving up just yet. If he were older and exhibiting aggression to a new kitten I'd agree completely, but he's still a juvenile - barely out of kittenhood himself. It would be better if the female were older and more able to hold her own, but as said that's only about six to eight weeks away - I'm not sure these cats have much of anywhere else to go except the OP's house. I'm not convinced that the situation is doomed, especially given the alternatives (back to the farm or possibly to a shelter or pound? - not sure - not many people want cats at the moment and it is very difficult to find homes) - and with a bit of work on the OP's part it should ease up.

R0C

I'm surprised to be writing with an update this soon, but things seem to have improved quite a bit over the past two days.

I'm not sure if he's just getting more used to her, but he seems to have become a bit bored of her, and has returned to doing his own thing, which usually involves tumbling around with his favourite ball and tossing it into the air. Up to two days ago, nothing could distract him from her, he wasn't able to focus on anything else when she was anywhere in proximity, even when he could hear her somewhere in the distance. This seems to have now changed.

I won't be leaving them alone together for a second for many months yet, and they won't be meeting except for in their neutral space, but there's a definite change compared to the first few days where his aggression was really extreme.

He approached her once today during their mixing time, and he licked her face for about 10 seconds (the first time he's done this), a little later he did lift his paw to her a couple of times and smack at her back but it was quite gentle and playful. So far, he hasn't bitten her in his violent manner or tried to pin her down.

I'm not assuming that the situation is fixed by any means, but it has definitely improved a little at this precise time and hopefully it will continue like that.

I'll post again if I have any updates on this..

R0C

The Sweeper wrote: »

Meeoow, as the tom is only six months old there's still a lot of room there for him to learn to integrate with another cat so I wouldn't be giving up just yet. If he were older and exhibiting aggression to a new kitten I'd agree completely, but he's still a juvenile - barely out of kittenhood himself. It would be better if the female were older and more able to hold her own, but as said that's only about six to eight weeks away - I'm not sure these cats have much of anywhere else to go except the OP's house. I'm not convinced that the situation is doomed, especially given the alternatives (back to the farm or possibly to a shelter or pound? - not sure - not many people want cats at the moment and it is very difficult to find homes) - and with a bit of work on the OP's part it should ease up.

The farm was willing to take her back, but I know in my heart that she wouldn't survive there. The tom was very streetwise as a kitten and quick, this little one doesn't have the same personality. She is a lot more needy and a bit of a weakling.

At the beginning of this week, I asked several people if they'd be interested in taking her for a while, though this really wasn't the option I wanted, and anyway, nobody was interested.

I'll preservere for another while now as things have looked up a little, and see how it goes.

I've got fantastic, safe facilities to provide to a cat (compared to the farm they were on), including a 10 ft all round walled garden that will keep any dog out, so here's hoping it works out!

Bullseye1

We adopted a stray Tom Cat kitten and for the first ten to eleven months my hands were in bits with his clawing and biting but just after turning one year he settled down into a calm cat. He was my first cat so I didn't know what to expect. He even loves to fetch like a dog. He is an indoor ca and great company. Hopefully your little fellow settles down shortly.

Shazanne

Hi Roc, delighted to hear you're making progress. Maybe he was just adjusting and is now beginning to accept her - she could be like part of the furniture before too long:D Animals are strange and have their own little way of expressing themself, but you guy sounds like he's a sweet guy underneath the recent tough exterior an I think everything will work out just fine. Well done to you:)

JKM

ROC, as we speak I have a 1 1/2 year old female cat grumbling fiercly at me because of a very new introduction to our family. And one of our other cats (male, nuetered, 2 year old) hasn't come home, except for a few minutes for food, in the last few days. If this was the first time we'd experienced this i would be extremely worried. However, from experience I know they just need an adjustment period.
Try letting the kitten into the tom's space, without the tom present and vice versa. This will get the two of them used to each others smells. Also, try rubbing your tom with a towel or something and then rubbing the kitten with it. This will transfer the toms scent to the kitten making her more familiar to him. I have no doubt that they will be getting on like house on fire in no time.
Our then 10 month old (Ollie) had turned into the devil incarnate when we introduced Lucy and Oscar as kittens. We had just endured over a week of absolute hell (I thought we'd made the worst mistake ever getting him 'playmates') and then walked in to find this sight one day;

We have since endured this introductory phase once and are going through it again right at this moment.
It seems like you're doing everything right to date, just give it time.