GOD

Guill

Jakkass wrote: »

This is the fault of humanity, and humanity alone I would have thought?

While 'Insert your God of Choice here' sat back and ignored their suffering?

tbh

Jakkass wrote: »

This is the fault of humanity, and humanity alone I would have thought?

Any god who leaves his people to suffer through that isn't worth a fuck, with the greatest of respect jakkass.
Any god who lets his people suffer because of their devotion to him is either cruel or impotent.

AudreyHepburn

God didn't build Auschwitz, Dachau etc....men did.
God didn't gas innocent people to death and then use their remains for soap, lamps, cloth etc.......men did
God didn't strip people of their clothes and possessions and dignity......men did
God didn't preform horrific 'experiments' on people.......men did
God didn't treat people as subhuman (untermenschen)........men did.

thebigbiffo

Jakkass wrote: »

This is the fault of humanity, and humanity alone I would have thought?

yeah, humanity. your onmipotent and all loving god just chose to let innocent children be gased to death like animals. please explain why if you can thanks.

tbh

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

God didn't build Auschwitz, Dachau etc....men did.
God didn't gas innocent people to death and then use their remains for soap, lamps, cloth etc.......men did
God didn't strip people of their clothes and possessions and dignity......men did
God didn't preform horrific 'experiments' on people.......men did
God didn't treat people as subhuman (untermenschen)........men did.

God doesn't seem to do a lot, does he?
I take it tho, that when good things happen, that *is* god yeah?

fatboypee

Guill wrote: »

Fine, who created God then? Or where did the substance or power that he is come from?

There is alot more evidence for evolution than there is for God....

Oh wait, there is a book written by the Romans that tell us there is a God, oh yea, now i believe.

I dont usually get annoyed by post but for someone to look for 'proof' of evolution when there is no proof of a/any God........:mad:

Ahem, did I say there was a God anywhere in my thread? My point is simple. WE DO NOT KNOW. What I find spouted ad-nauseum as an opposed view to the existence of a God are comments such as "There is alot more evidence for evolution than there is for God...." I'm not denying that evolution is potentially the mechanism of our creation. My question remains simply "where did the things that created us come from if there is no God ?" We get hung up upon a force-fed perception of God (as the formulated religions depict such an entity) and perhaps there is evidence, perhaps there is not. It's pretty much subjective.

BUT (and heres the point) we all believe something, it may be we just popped out of nowhere and there is no God, could be creationism, it maybe Martians landed, it maybe Jesus, Mohammed, who/whatever. In my very humble view, belief in something is in itself a demonstration of faith.

To simply say Err, the Big Bang created us, or, Evolution is in my view as wide-open and open to skepticism as the ORIGIN of all that we are and certainly as emotive as showing someone a book that contains a story of some messianic figure sent to save us all ?

thebigbiffo

prinz wrote: »

there were still incredible examples of humanity and forgiveness and hope.

with the greatest of respect - i do not understand how these examples of humanity have anything to do with god.

the god i was brought up to believe in as a catholic was watching over us all, would reward kindness and would answer prayers. what would you think of your god if you were herded into a chamber and callously killed along with millions of others? would your dying thought be that god was great? like f'uck...it would be that god has abandoned you, or there is no god.

i'll also point out that the feelings you described which reaffirmed your faith in god were probably the same feelings which led to a belief in a god in the first place - that there must be some meaning to it all, that this could not have happened from chance, that something so terrible must have a deeper meaning. when, in fact, it was the basest of our species doing what they do best - killing those who they feel threatened by, do not like and are different.

if there was a god out there and we are his creations he very certainly doesnt give a s'hit about us. if there was a heavenly ISPCA he'd be landed with a hefty fine:cool:

prinz

thebigbiffo wrote: »

with the greatest of respect - i do not understand how these examples of humanity have anything to do with god.

Exactly... and humanity has a choice to make. Various world religions would tell us what choice a supreme being would have us make for our own benefit, and it isn't industrial extermination.

tbh

prinz wrote: »

the hell on Earth that people went through there were still incredible examples of humanity and forgiveness and hope.

to be fair tho, you can't logically say that the bad stuff was all humans but the good stuff was all God. Either all of it is god or none of it is.

God is either a 2 year old child dying in screaming agony AND the miners getting rescued, or he is neither of those things.

For the record, I personally believe in a higher intelligence, and I understand that it makes it easier for us to relate to it by referring to it as "he" or "she" or "they" or whatever. But I think the higher intelligence is about as concious and interested in us as we are in the bacteria in our gut.

prinz

tbh wrote: »

to be fair tho, you can't logically say that the bad stuff was all humans but the good stuff was all God. Either all of it is god or none of it is..

I didn't say that, I said humans have the option of being the worst of scum or decent people.

Humans caused the suffering of kids in Auschwitz and humans rescued the Chilean miners. The fact that that choice exists, and that the vast vast majority of the interpretations of god in the world advocates choosing to help rather than kill people gives me hope.

One of the major turning points for me was seeing the artwork by the kids from the Theresienstadt camp. Even surrounded by death and suffering, they were drawing happy pictures, sunshine, animals, kids playing... I don't know if I'd be that strong. Incredibly moving. I was wondering to myself 'how could people do this' looking at the graveyard of the camp, and to see those pictures it really made it clear that the world could be a much better place. The world that, to me, God wants it to be.

tbh

prinz wrote: »

I didn't say that, I said humans have the option of being the worst of scum or decent people.

Humans caused the suffering of kids in Auschwitz and humans rescued the Chilean miners. The fact that that choice exists, and that the vast vast majority of the interpretations of god in the world advocates choosing to help rather than kill people gives me hope.

One of the major turning points for me was seeing the artwork by the kids from the Theresienstadt camp. Even surrounded by death and suffering, they were drawing happy pictures, sunshine, animals, kids playing... I don't know if I'd be that strong. Incredibly moving.

we both know that we're not going to convert each other to our way of thinking, and that's fine. Anything that gives you hope is fine with me.

However the fact that the vast majority of cultures advocate a helpful society where one doesn't go around killing others willy-nilly is hardly a coincidence, or evidence of a higher power, it's just common sense. If random killing is frowned upon, then one is less likely to be killed randomly, and that's in everyone's interest.

Wibbs

tbh wrote: »

God is either a 2 year old child dying in screaming agony AND the miners getting rescued, or he is neither of those things.

It could be both too.

For the record, I personally believe in a higher intelligence, and I understand that it makes it easier for us to relate to it by referring to it as "he" or "she" or "they" or whatever.

Yea I'd be more inclined to buy that alright. The pantheist notion always held some appeal for me. There is an inordinate amount of information and complexity in the universe. Life the most obvious and if we're not alone out there, then the level of complexity is literally off the scale. That complexity may become "conscious" in a way beyond the individual to comprehend. The complexity of laws at the very start may not have been. Much like a newborn baby while complex isn't in an adult sense fully conscious, that grows as it does.

But I think the higher intelligence is about as concious and interested in us as we are in the bacteria in our gut.

I dunno. In that scenario above, it might be as interested or not in you or a bacteria or sun going nova. It would be aware of us on some fundamental level. How that awareness manifests itself is where we come unstuck.

thebigbiffo

prinz wrote: »

Exactly... and humanity has a choice to make. Various world religions would tell us what choice a supreme being would have us make for our own benefit, and it isn't industrial extermination.

i'm sorry - i can never balance a belief in an omnipotent and loving god with one who does not intervene to save innocent children from agonising death. they cancel each other out - there is no god

prinz

tbh wrote: »

we both know that we're not going to convert each other to our way of thinking, and that's fine. Anything that gives you hope is fine with me..

No worries.

tbh wrote: »

However the fact that the vast majority of cultures advocate a helpful society where one doesn't go around killing others willy-nilly is hardly a coincidence, or evidence of a higher power, it's just common sense. If random killing is frowned upon, then one is less likely to be killed randomly, and that's in everyone's interest.

...and as animals what's in everyone's interests is not naturally top of our to-do list. Which would tell me there is something different about us / or that something/someone creator wants something different for us.

Guill

Lets just for one moment ignore the theory of the Big Bang.

Could the universe have been always there? No creator or physics involved. If we say humans might not be able to comprehend all sciences of the universe then it is possible.

prinz

thebigbiffo wrote: »

i'm sorry - i can never balance a belief in an omnipotent and loving god with one who does not intervene to save innocent children from agonising death. they cancel each other out - there is no god

In your opinion. Omnipotency and love of course does not guarantee intervention.

prinz

Guill wrote: »

Could the universe have been always there? No creator or physics involved. If we say humans might not be able to comprehend all sciences of the universe then it is possible.

In it's present form, no. Perhaps in a constantly recurring loop of starting - expanding - collapsing - starting - expanding - collapsing - starting....

Dravokivich

Guill wrote: »

Lets just for one moment ignore the theory of the Big Bang.

Could the universe have been always there? No creator or physics involved. If we say humans might not be able to comprehend all sciences of the universe then it is possible.

I'd be more concerned with not destroying ourselves... then how we got here in the first place...

thebigbiffo

prinz wrote: »

In your opinion. Omnipotency and love of course does not guarantee intervention.

maybe you believe in a different kind of god to the one i imagined. can you give me a quick run though of your beliefs please?

Guill

prinz wrote: »

...and as animals what's in everyone's interests is not naturally top of our to-do list. Which would tell me there is something different about us / or that something/someone creator wants something different for us.

This might have something to do with the evolution of the brain.
We created emotions which sometimes lead us to ignore our animal instincts. But when you look at it are we really that different ot animals on a base level?

Watch an animal give birth and nurture and protect her offspring and watch a woman do the same. there is very little difference.

Wibbs

Guill wrote: »

Lets just for one moment ignore the theory of the Big Bang.

Could the universe have been always there? No creator or physics involved. If we say humans might not be able to comprehend all sciences of the universe then it is possible.

"Always" is a term bound up in time. If time itself came into existence with the big bang then the notion of before/always/forever" simply doesnt exist. If time existed before the big bang it gets interesting, even if that time existed in another universe. Something kicked it off. Something seeded its expansion.

Guill

I understand it is expanding but just for arguements sake....


the one thing humans could never really understand is the idea of infinity. Maybe there was a bang of some discription but what if there was a univers there alread and the big bang just got it growing?

Sea Sharp

Guill wrote: »

I understand it is expanding but just for arguements sake....


the one thing humans could never really understand is the idea of infinity. Maybe there was a bang of some discription but what if there was a univers there alread and the big bang just got it growing?

There's no reason to say this isn't the case. And in my opinion I'd be surprised to think that reality started with one big bang.
But we mustn't fall into the trap of saying "We don't know what was there so God must have done it".

nozzferrahhtoo

mikerowsopht wrote: »

How Can ANYONE still believe this crap these days.

I respect the fact that people believe this and am not interfering but just need somone to explain it to me why or how they believe

I understand your frustration and also why you have not found an answer to this question yet. The reason for both is that there IS no one answer to it to find.

There are many. No matter how many I give you someone will think of more. It may even be possible that the number of answers to this is as many as the number of people who believe in “god”, especially considering there seems to be as many gods as there are people who believe it… each persons idea of what it is they are talking about when they say “god” varies so much that it is clear they are rarely talking about the same thing, despite using the same word.

However I will try to give you some of the MAIN reasons why people do believe in this stuff based solely on my personal experience.

1) As has already been said it is comforting. People do not like to say “I do not know” and even worse they do not like the idea there are questions they might never know the answer to as long as they live. Having an “easy” catch all explanation of “god did it” is immeasurably more comfortable to them than admitting ignorance on any subject.

2) Another common reason is people just generally fear death and they want to believe that death is not the end.

3) A very common one is based on something that is actually wonderful about humans. We have the tendancy to personify things in our thoughts and speech. The world around us, the passage of the stars, the changes in the weather, war, love, fear, evil, even chance and probability. We personify them all. This is a GOOD thing and it helps us conceptualise ideas as well as helps us produce the most wonderful art, literature and stories. The problem is that humans THEN have the tendency to believe those personifications real, with actual thoughts and desires. It is a short step from there then to start wondering what these things “want” of us and then you have theism and theology pretty fast.

4) Another common trait of humans is to come up with a conclusion first and fit the evidence to it later. It is very hard to make yourself, let alone anyone else, analyse your own ideas, opinions and beliefs from base principles upwards. The problem is that regardless of whether you are a believer in god, or one of those people who think the number 23 controls everything, you WILL find supporting argument for these positions IF you are willing to presuppose the conclusion before applying the evidence. Try it sometime. Try believing there is a god or that 23 controls everything. You will find it works and you will find a ton of things that support your conclusion. The writers of the Bible not only knew this, the RELIED on it, hence lines like “Seek and you shall find”. Of course you will. A true miracle would be if you did not.

As I said I could go on for hours giving you answers. There is so many. I find these are the main 4 covering most if not all of the believers I have ever personally come in contact with. So I hope the list helps.

Shenshen

prinz wrote: »

...and as animals what's in everyone's interests is not naturally top of our to-do list. Which would tell me there is something different about us / or that something/someone creator wants something different for us.

How do you explain altruism shown by nearly all social animals, then?
Evolution has a really good explanation for it, but I'm curious as to why you would think some creator wanted something different about humans, monkeys, wolves, elephants, whales and other animals?

gbee

mikerowsopht wrote: »

Do you think with our generation having more brains than the last that the church will still be here in say 100 - 200 yrs times within Europe of course.

There were always people who did not believe, but they would have been executed, still goes on in some parts of the world today.

If was not a faith or belief system that millions adopted, they simply preferred to actually live.

K-9

tbh wrote: »

God doesn't seem to do a lot, does he?
I take it tho, that when good things happen, that *is* god yeah?

Surely God believes in free will! The ability to decide your destiny and then be judged on it, so the Nazis eg. had the free will not to do those things but chose to?

Shenshen

K-9 wrote: »

Surely God believes in free will! The ability to decide your destiny and then be judged on it, so the Nazis eg. had the free will not to do those things but chose to?

Hang on... an omniscient and omnipotent god, who creates everybody in a certain way and knows exactly in advance how they will react in every second of their lives?
And when they react in exactly the way he knew they would react when he created them exactly the way he did, he gets to punish them...

Nice.

prinz

Shenshen wrote: »

Hang on... an omniscient and omnipotent god, who creates everybody in a certain way and knows exactly in advance how they will react in every second of their lives?
And when they react in exactly the way he knew they would react when he created them exactly the way he did, he gets to punish them...
Nice.

You believe there is no free will then? What religion is this? By the by, being omniscient such a God would know the future of all possible outcomes, not just the one which occurs.

tbh

K-9 wrote: »

Surely God believes in free will! The ability to decide your destiny and then be judged on it, so the Nazis eg. had the free will not to do those things but chose to?

the hundreds and thousands of innocent people that were murdered by the nazis didn't decide their destiny, did they?