GOD

Snakeblood

prinz wrote: »

You believe there is no free will then? What religion is this?

It makes sense. If we assume God knows all the variables, all the little things that make up a person and affect a person, then he *is* going to know what they will do in any circumstance.

We may have free will but seeing as god knows everything about us, he's going to know what we do in every circumstance. That's the omniscience. Our free will is funneled along grooves that our experience and makeup have made from us. We think there's free will, god knows what's going to happen.

Shenshen

prinz wrote: »

You believe there is no free will then? What religion is this? By the by, being omniscient such a God would know the future of all possible outcomes, not just the one which occurs.

I don't follow any religion.
But I was brought up Catholic. So god knows the outcome of all futures, and since he set up the game at the very beginning also of course knows which future of the lot will actually happen.... where's the free will in that?

prinz

Shenshen wrote: »

I don't follow any religion.
But I was brought up Catholic.

Fair enough, but the concept of free will differs even within different denominations of the one religion, so it's a complex topic.

Shenshen wrote: »

So god knows the outcome of all futures, and since he set up the game at the very beginning also of course knows which future of the lot will actually happen.... where's the free will in that?

Let's just say some guy is sitting down debating whether or not to shoot himself.

I know what would happen if he pulled the trigger, and I know what would happen if he didn't... my knowing the outcomes doesn't affect his free will in choosing to shoot himself or not. I would hope that he'd put the gun down and walk away, I could try to lead him in that direction, but at the end of the day the decision is still his. Knowing the outcomes doesn't affect a person's ability to choose.

Shenshen

prinz wrote: »

Let's just say some guy is sitting down debating whether or not to shoot himself.

I know what would happen if he pulled the trigger, and I know what would happen if he didn't... my knowing the outcomes doesn't affect his free will in choosing to shoot himself or not. I would hope that he'd put the gun down and walk away, I could try to lead him in that direction, but at the end of the day the decision is still his. Knowing the outcomes doesn't affect a person's ability to choose.

That is definitely true, but then you aren't god. You didn't create this guy, mentally and physically, and in creating him you didn't know in advance that he would be faced with problems in life that will eventually lead him to kill himself... or not, because you created him slightly differently, slightly stronger, or created the world in such a way that just as he's about to off himself he receives some absolutely wonderful bit of news that causes him to change his mind.

K-9

tbh wrote: »

the hundreds and thousands of innocent people that were murdered by the nazis didn't decide their destiny, did they?

No and?

Was God supposed to reach his hand down and save them?

It's to do with free will, how else would you be judged? If you didn't have free will there wouldn't be any point, as we'd all be robots.

prinz

Shenshen wrote: »

That is definitely true, but then you aren't god. You didn't create this guy, mentally and physically, and in creating him you didn't know in advance that he would be faced with problems in life that will eventually lead him to kill himself... or not, because you created him slightly differently, slightly stronger, or created the world in such a way that just as he's about to off himself he receives some absolutely wonderful bit of news that causes him to change his mind.

All of the above are affected by the choices we and those around us make in life rather than God. At any given moment our lives could go in a million different ways... I choose to do things based on experiences, relationships with others, etc. I don't believe in predestination which it seems you do, and that's fair enough, but no amount of discussing free will is going to reconcile the two.

Shenshen

prinz wrote: »

All of the above are affected by the choices we and those around us make in life rather than God. At any given moment our lives could go in a million different ways... I choose to do things based on experiences, relationships with others, etc. I don't believe in predestination which it seems you do, and that's fair enough, but no amount of discussing free will is going to reconcile the two.

Why would I believe in predestination when I don't believe in any omniscient and omnipotent god?
I understand that you believe god is the all-powerful creator, and not only is he all-powerful but also all-knowing.
Logically, you need to conclude that since he created everything and everyone and knew in advance how it would all turn out, free will is just an illusion in such a scenario.

Essentially, he either knew it would happen in such a way, but didn't have the power to change it
Or he had the power to change it but didn't know it would happen.
Or he had the power and the knowledge, which means he wanted it to happen exactly as it did.

tbh

K-9 wrote: »

No and?

Was God supposed to reach his hand down and save them?

yeah, why not? Why not throw an earthquake, or some plague or a flood or something - I mean, it's not like he never did it before, right?

prinz

Shenshen wrote: »

Why would I believe in predestination when I don't believe in any omniscient and omnipotent god?

Assuming you did, what you are describing is a form of predestination.

Shenshen wrote: »

Logically, you need to conclude that since he created everything and everyone and knew in advance how it would all turn out, free will is just an illusion in such a scenario..

In a world where knowledge of every possible outcome exists free will is not affected. Your logic is flawed. Refer back to the previous example.

Shenshen

prinz wrote: »

Assuming you did, what you are describing is a form of predestination.

And where did I say I believed in this?

In a world where knowledge of every possible outcome exists free will is not affected. Your logic is flawed. Refer back to the previous example.

Not if that world was created by a creator who knew in advance exactly which outcome would actually come to pass.
Are you arguing god is not omniscient and simply knows all possible outcomes, but not which one will be the actual outcome?

Shenshen

tbh wrote: »

yeah, why not? Why not throw an earthquake, or some plague or a flood or something - I mean, it's not like he never did it before, right?

Or he simply could have done a reverse-Egyptian for them :

Exodus 4:21
And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Exodus 7:3
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

Exodus 7:13
And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

K-9

tbh wrote: »

yeah, why not? Why not throw an earthquake, or some plague or a flood or something - I mean, it's not like he never did it before, right?

Maybe to see humanities reaction?

I'm not a big believer myself but I do believe in free will and I can see the logic in regards to God.

It would be a boring world without it! Some scientists don't believe we have free will so there you go!

Shenshen

K-9 wrote: »

Maybe to see humanities reaction?

I'm not a big believer myself but I do believe in free will and I can see the logic in regards to God.

It would be a boring world without it! Some scientists don't believe we have free will so there you go!

So humanity is around for god's amusement and delectation? Wow.

Yes, some scientist claim that there is no entity outside our bodies governing our decisions in total independence of our biology. I would lean to agree with them.

K-9

Shenshen wrote: »

So humanity is around for god's amusement and delectation? Wow.

How do you reason that one?

Shenshen

K-9 wrote: »

How do you reason that one?

I don't.
You suggested that god allowed millions of innocent people to be killed to see how humanity would react.

Chairman Meow

tbh wrote: »

Why do you assume that there's an answer that can be explained to you?
If I feed a cat, he doesn't understand where the food came from, and it cannot be explained to him. But it doesn't mean there's not a logical answer that doesn't involve god. Unless I'm god.

This is idiotic. Of course the cat knows where the food comes from, it comes from you. I feed loads of stray cats, as soon as they see me walking home the go sit outside my house waiting for food. Thats a ridiculous analogy.

tbh

Chairman Meow wrote: »

This is idiotic. Of course the cat knows where the food comes from, it comes from you. I feed loads of stray cats, as soon as they see me walking home the go sit outside my house waiting for food. Thats a ridiculous analogy.

it's pretty ironic you describing my point as idiotic, when you clearly don't understand what I'm saying.

nozzferrahhtoo

tbh wrote: »

it's pretty ironic you describing my point as idiotic, when you clearly don't understand what I'm saying.

Maybe Cat analogies are to be avoided around someone with the nick name Chariman Meow

Pace2008

Chairman Meow wrote: »

This is idiotic. Of course the cat knows where the food comes from, it comes from you. I feed loads of stray cats, as soon as they see me walking home the go sit outside my house waiting for food. Thats a ridiculous analogy.

The cat may not know who left the food out, almost certainly doesn't know that it was bought from the supermarket, and is probably too limited in faculty to understand all this anyway.

With our current knowledge, we do not where the universe came from, and we may not even have the capacity to understand where it came from. That doesn't mean there isn't a naturalistic explanation.

K-9

Shenshen wrote: »

I don't.
You suggested that god allowed millions of innocent people to be killed to see how humanity would react.

I see your point but I look at it from Humanities responsibilities towards that.

Why were so many killed in Haiti yet earthquakes in developed countries don't suffer anywhere near as badly? It isn't as if we aren't aware of were earthquakes are likely to hit.

All that knowledge, expertise and money and we still manage to feck it up.

Shenshen

K-9 wrote: »

I see your point but I look at it from Humanities responsibilities towards that.

Why were so many killed in Haiti yet earthquakes in developed countries don't suffer anywhere near as badly? It isn't as if we aren't aware of were earthquakes are likely to hit.

All that knowledge, expertise and money and we still manage to feck it up.

Because people in developed countries have less corruptible building inspectors, and better organised emergency infrastructure?

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say.

nozzferrahhtoo

Pace2008 wrote: »

The cat may not know who left the food out, almost certainly doesn't know that it was bought from the supermarket, and is probably too limited in faculty to understand all this anyway.

Like that old song lyric "Peaches come from a can, they were put there by a man" which summarized perfectly the agricultural knowledge of possibly a depressingly large number of the planets citizens.

K-9

Shenshen wrote: »

Because people in developed countries have less corruptible building inspectors, and better organised emergency infrastructure?

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say.

So it is all Haiti's fault?

You realise how selfish a statement that is?

The fact that we are "developed" is the contradiction. Developed economically yes, definitely.

Developed appears to mean feck them, leave them to their own devices.

Shenshen

K-9 wrote: »

So it is all Haiti's fault?

You realise how selfish a statement that is?

The fact that we are "developed" is the contradiction. Developed economically yes, definitely.

Developed appears to mean feck them, leave them to their own devices.

Selfish???

Did I put their building regulations in place? Was I responsible for the national emergency response?

You asked why so many people were buried and died, and I gave you the reasons.
Without the subsequent help of the developed world, how many more do you think would have died?

K-9

Shenshen wrote: »

Selfish???

Did I put their building regulations in place? Was I responsible for the national emergency response?

You asked why so many people were buried and died, and I gave you the reasons.
Without the subsequent help of the developed world, how many more do you think would have died?

So put out fires is the best humanity can do?

Shenshen

K-9 wrote: »

So put out fires is the best humanity can do?

If the "developed world" had offered to put an emergency response system in place, and to prosecute Haiti's corrupt and inefficient building inspectors as well as overhaul their regulations, how do you think Haitians would have reacted before the earthquake?

As far as I know, the Haitian government was aware of the threat, since scientists had previously pointed out the fault line and the probability of a major earthquake to them.

K-9

Shenshen wrote: »

If the "developed world" had offered to put an emergency response system in place, and to prosecute Haiti's corrupt and inefficient building inspectors as well as overhaul their regulations, how do you think Haitians would have reacted before the earthquake?

As far as I know, the Haitian government was aware of the threat, since scientists had previously pointed out the fault line and the probability of a major earthquake to them.

No, you are completely missing the point. It has got nothing to do with responses.

The Human Race decides on these things. We make decisions that it is fine that LA is well protected from earthquakes and don't make it our business that Haiti is well prepared. Its the "I'm alright Jack mentality" except at an international level.

Then when it happens, the developed world can pat itself on its back for the work it does or we relieve our guilt by donating a few Euro.

Shenshen

K-9 wrote: »

No, you are completely missing the point. It has got nothing to do with responses.

The Human Race decides on these things. We make decisions that it is fine that LA is well protected from earthquakes and don't make it our business that Haiti is well prepared. Its the "I'm alright Jack mentality" except at an international level.

Then when it happens, the developed world can pat itself on its back for the work it does or we relieve our guilt by donating a few Euro.

Can you please point me to the one authority making decisions for the whole of the human race? I'd be very interested.

As it is, I've got about as much say about the emergence response in LA as I had about the one in Haiti, and in all fairness neither is my business.
I've given money for the victims in Haiti, just as I've given money for the victims of Hurricane Catherina. But both the US and Haiti are independent countries of which I'm not a citizen, so I can't influence the decisions of their respective governments.

Snakeblood

K-9 wrote: »

No, you are completely missing the point. It has got nothing to do with responses.

The Human Race decides on these things. We make decisions that it is fine that LA is well protected from earthquakes and don't make it our business that Haiti is well prepared. Its the "I'm alright Jack mentality" except at an international level.

Then when it happens, the developed world can pat itself on its back for the work it does or we relieve our guilt by donating a few Euro.

That would make sense if you thought that humanity always had the chance to protect itself against whatever disaster came along, like the black plague for example. There's literally nothing anyone at the time could have done to save anyone else, it was pure luck.

strobe

K-9 wrote: »

Surely God believes in free will! The ability to decide your destiny and then be judged on it, so the Nazis eg. had the free will not to do those things but chose to?

Ahhh free will. If there is one thing we can say for certain it is that the Abrahamic god does not believe in universal free will to the point where he will not intervene in the affairs of man. So this argument of 'the reason god didn't stop Mengele from torturing 5 year old children to death is because he has strict rules about not interfering as that would effect free will' is demonstrably nonsense, if the bible is to be taken as in any way accurate.

If you are talking of just some deity we know nothing about then the 'free will' argument can be used but then that deity most certainly does not love each and every one of us. He is indifferent at best and malevolent at worst.