GOD

thebigbiffo

Jakkass wrote: »

God sometimes has to let humans make their own mistakes, so that they might actually begin to realise that they cannot put themselves on the top of the pile. Given the huge advancements in UN Human Rights legislation amongst other things, I actually believe that He was right.



It's not about when God "got sick" of it, it's about whether or not God decides it is appropriate in all cases to intervene. If God intervened in every case, it would severely compromise our free will.

Again, I know the whole "religion is ****e" makes you feel superior and all of this, but there are numerous explanations to about 90% of the objections I've heard on boards. I leave 10% aside because I feel the approach that I and other Christians on boards may have given inadequate answers. I don't claim to be an expert, but sometimes when you here the same old junk come up here every week you kind of have to respond to it.



I think the Inquisition was wrong. Indeed many Christians died during the Inquisition. All about the RCC retaining its power in Europe. Likewise with the Crusades.

Luckily, I don't put my trust in human institutions which are wholly fallible, I put my trust in God who goes beyond mere human institutions.



There's nothing blind about it. Admittedly, I was an agnostic for quite a few years. I'm glad that through God's grace He helped me to see the truth. I must have spent hours thinking about all this stuff over the last few years, hardly blind.

i'm sorry but the argument 'he had to let us make our own mistakes' holds no water with me. innocent children were tortured to death so an omnipotent god could allow the UN to be set up stinks of clutching at straws. he allows evil to win in many many cases and it has made no difference. since the dawn of mankind humans have been hacking each other to death and still do with no clear end to this 'lesson being learned' - god did not create humans in his own image unless god is a murdering, self obsessed, power hungry arsehole.

god intervenes in absolutely no cases. do you know how i know this? there has not been one, not one documented case of god doing anything which would be classed as an intervention. he was so determined to show us he's real he sent his only son to tell us all about him teach us his ways, yet he wont do one simple act lately just to proves he's still there like move a mountain or part a sea or even send another incarnation of himself from heaven to be killed and re-born so we can videotape it this time to make sure its real - faith is a cop out. it means you can have your god the way you want him.

i'm not one of those people who jumps on the god fearers every time i see them, i'm just in the humour today. i dont understand how you can rationalise stuff like the holocaust as a good thing, something that god wanted and i take issue with that view. i do not want to believe in a god or would never be happy if there actually was a god who could watch over such vile behaviour. by that rationale then - someone who mass muders an entire school could concieveably say god told him to do it and you would have to accept that - because your god does engage in that type of behaviour.

the church and the humans who make it up profess to act on behalf of god - they never seem to get it right, by your accounts because its because they are humans they cant help it. so presumably your religious views were aided by other humans - the simple fact you describe yourself a christian attests to this.

so by your own logic - because you are human you havent a clue what you're talking about - its all makey uppy. you dont know the slightest thing about your god if he exists. as critical thinking humans though we can test the world and measure it meaning we've elevated ourselves above your fallible religion with infallible science. wow.

Des Carter

God allows humans to do bad stuff because he gave us free will and humans are inherently greedy, selfish, money-hungry, power-hungry d!cks who will do anything to get ahead. (or at least thats my understanding)

nozzferrahhtoo

thebigbiffo wrote: »

its all makey uppy. you dont know the slightest thing about your god if he exists.

Yes it has always seemed bizarre to me that users like the one above can talk about what gods intentions might be, what it might want of us, what it thinks of us, what it loves or hates… all without them even bothering to show the entity even exists in the first place.

To me, it makes literally just as much sense as closing and locking a door on an entirely empty room, and then discussing how many sugars the Tall Man in there wants in his tea.

If you have not even established there is a man in there, then theorising on his taste in tea is merely an exercise in fantasy and for the exact same reason so is sitting around saying what you believe "god" may want, intend or think.

thebigbiffo

Des Carter wrote: »

God allows humans to do bad stuff because he gave us free will and humans are inherently greedy, selfish, money-hungry, power-hungry d!cks who will do anything to get ahead. (or at least thats my understanding)

you might want to look into traditional christian teching that man was created in gods own image - so the big fella himself is inherently a greedy, selfish, money-hungry dick who will do anything to get ahead.

not what people want/need in a god i'm afraid so the believers need to dig deeper for an explanation - one that obviously needs faith to be accepted thereby proving the whole point that god either doesnt exist or is all the above with penchant for long games of hide and seek thrown in for good measure

Des Carter

thebigbiffo wrote: »

you might want to look into traditional christian teching that man was created in gods own image - so the big fella himself is inherently a greedy, selfish, money-hungry dick who will do anything to get ahead.

not what people want/need in a god i'm afraid so the believers need to dig deeper for an explanation - one that obviously needs faith to be accepted thereby proving the whole point that god either doesnt exist or is all the above with penchant for long games of hide and seek thrown in for good measure

This all comes down to wheather or not the Old Testament is to be taken literally or if they are just metaphorical stories like parables.

Snakeblood

Des Carter wrote: »

This all comes down to wheather or not the Old Testament is to be taken literally or if they are just metaphorical stories like parables.

Er. So is it meant to be a parable? Is the stuff in the new testament? Is all the jesus stuff a parable and he never existed?

It's a bit silly to go 'Well, you're supposed to believe this bit of the book is absolutely true, and this other bit isn't' when at no point does any bit of the bible say 'The old testament is actually just a parable'.

It's either all supposed to be true, or it's not, surely? Unless this is more of God playing silly buggers.

prinz

thebigbiffo wrote: »

i'm sorry but the argument 'he had to let us make our own mistakes' holds no water with me. innocent children were tortured to death so an omnipotent god could allow the UN to be set up stinks of clutching at straws. he allows evil to win in many many cases and it has made no difference. since the dawn of mankind humans have been hacking each other to death and still do with no clear end to this 'lesson being learned' - god did not create humans in his own image unless god is a murdering, self obsessed, power hungry arsehole...

It always amuses me this why didn't God do x line of thought. Especially when the same people who spout it usually spend a considerable amount of time theorising on how much better a place the world would be if everyone was atheist - thereby assuming the world would be better would there be no god to intervene. Damned if you do, damned if you don't as the saying goes. Round and round we go in circles...

If humans hack each other to death without divine intervention, humans can stop hacking each other to death without divine intervention.

prinz

thebigbiffo wrote: »

you might want to look into traditional christian teching that man was created in gods own image - so the big fella himself is inherently a greedy, selfish, money-hungry dick who will do anything to get ahead.

You might want to look into the traditional Christian teaching of the fall from grace, garden of Eden, human nature emerging post-creation etc.

Des Carter

Snakeblood wrote: »

Er. So is it meant to be a parable? Is the stuff in the new testament? Is all the jesus stuff a parable and he never existed?

I dont know but it may be, evidence shows the whole Adam and Eve is crap and the world being created in 7 days is unlikely so it very well could be.

As for the New Testament its not as there is strong evidence that Jesus did exist and the NT is just documenting his life and teachings - possibly some of his teachings could be interpreted as parables. Also the NT was heavily censored and edited so there may be facts etc left out or put in.

Snakeblood wrote: »

It's a bit silly to go 'Well, you're supposed to believe this bit of the book is absolutely true, and this other bit isn't' when at no point does any bit of the bible say 'The old testament is actually just a parable'.

It's either all supposed to be true, or it's not, surely? Unless this is more of God playing silly buggers.

Where does it say the OT is to be taken literally? it says it was "divinely inspired" which is very vague.

Also the Old and New Testaments two totally different ... eh Testamonts written by completely different authors who lived in two completely different time periods.

Shenshen

Des Carter wrote: »

God allows humans to do bad stuff because he gave us free will and humans are inherently greedy, selfish, money-hungry, power-hungry d!cks who will do anything to get ahead. (or at least thats my understanding)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it Christian teaching that this is exactly the way god created us?

prinz

Shenshen wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it Christian teaching that this is exactly the way god created us?

No. Christian teaching is that is what we have done to ourselves.

Snakeblood

Des Carter wrote: »

I dont know but it may be, evidence shows the whole Adam and Eve is crap and the world being created in 7 days is unlikely so it very well could be.

As for the New Testament its not as there is strong evidence that Jesus did exist and the NT is just documenting his life and teachings - possibly some of his teachings could be interpreted as parables. Also the NT was heavily censored and edited so there may be facts etc left out or put in.



Where does it say the OT is to be taken literally? it says it was "divinely inspired" which is very vague.

Also the Old and New Testaments two totally different ... eh Testamonts written by completely different authors who lived in two completely different time periods.

So are the ten commandments to be taken literally or are they more like guidelines or notions. If we don't know what god put in there for the buzz, what he put in there as a serious do this or else message, and what he put in as a sort of parable, how much *faith* should people put in it?

My point is that when you say 'Actually, what this divinely inspired document *really* meant to say' is that you come off as telling people what god thinks. It seems presumptuous.

thebigbiffo

prinz wrote: »

It always amuses me this why didn't God do x line of thought. Especially when the same people who spout it usually spend a considerable amount of time theorising on how much better a place the world would be if everyone was atheist - thereby assuming the world would be better would there be no god to intervene. Damned if you do, damned if you don't as the saying goes. Round and round we go in circles...

If humans hack each other to death without divine intervention, humans can stop hacking each other to death without divine intervention.

i never said the world would be a better place if everyone was athiest, quote me please or dont put words in my mouth - one or the other.

i'm only saying that all evidence and logic points to their not being a god - or if there is, he's not the one of endless love for mankind that christianity teaches - he's a sadist.

prinz wrote: »

You might want to look into the traditional Christian teaching of the fall from grace, garden of Eden, human nature emerging post-creation etc.

i only used the tradtional teaching argument to point out that it cant really be true true that god created us in his own image or else he'd be a f'uck up himself. i equally think all the above is just as dumb to believe in.

prinz

thebigbiffo wrote: »

i never said the world would be a better place if everyone was athiest, quote me please or dont put words in my mouth - one or the other..

I didn't say you did.

thebigbiffo wrote: »

i only used the tradtional teaching argument to point out that it cant really be true true that god created us in his own image or else he'd be a f'uck up himself..

Your understanding of the traditional teaching is flawed, so your point is null and void.

Shenshen

prinz wrote: »

No. Christian teaching is that is what we have done to ourselves.

So god didn't create us with these capacities, and didn't put us in a world he knew would bring out the worst in us?

prinz

Shenshen wrote: »

So god didn't create us with these capacities, and didn't put us in a world he knew would bring out the worst in us?

I see you still don't get freedom of choice.

Shenshen

prinz wrote: »

I see you still don't get freedom of choice.

Oh, I get freedom of choice.
What I don't get is how an omnipotent and omniscient being could blame its creation for being exactly as he knew they would be when he created them.

thebigbiffo

prinz wrote: »

I didn't say you did..

well next time dont quote my post and then go straight off on something else - it definitely reads like i have stated somewhere i want the whole world to be athiest

prinz wrote: »

Your understanding of the traditional teaching is flawed, so your point is null and void.

how is my understanding flawed? lazy response there prinz, very lazy.

prinz

Shenshen wrote: »

Oh, I get freedom of choice.
What I don't get is how an omnipotent and omniscient being could blame its creation for being exactly as he knew they would be when he created them.

Er, contradiction much?

thebigbiffo wrote: »

how is my understanding flawed? lazy response there prinz, very lazy.

Go back about 6 or 8 posts and you'll see.

thebigbiffo

Shenshen wrote: »

Oh, I get freedom of choice.
What I don't get is how an omnipotent and omniscient being could blame its creation for being exactly as he knew they would be when he created them.

exactly. god put us here knowing full well tiny innocent babies would starve to death in africa - if thats true, god's one seriously f'ucked up dude

Shenshen

prinz wrote: »

Er, contradiction much?

Where is it a contradiction?

thebigbiffo

prinz wrote: »

Go back about 6 or 8 posts and you'll see.

i dont have a clue to what you're refering because i dont believe my understanding or articulation of that understanding is flawed. enlighten me or stop telling me i'm wrong

prinz

Shenshen wrote: »

Where is it a contradiction?

You acknowledge our freedom of choice.... and then claim we act as intended... we can't have both. Either we have the choice to act as we see fit or we don't. You can't accept our free will and then say we have been programmed to act a certain way..

prinz

thebigbiffo wrote: »

i dont have a clue to what you're refering because i dont believe my understanding or articulation of that understanding is flawed. enlighten me or stop telling me i'm wrong

We weren't created greedy, selfish, money hungry dicks.... that was all our work.

Shenshen

prinz wrote: »

You acknowledge our freedom of choice.... and then claim we act as intended... we can't have both. Either we have the choice to act as we see fit or we don't. You can't accept our free will and then say we have been programmed to act a certain way..

I'm not saying that we're programmed. I'm saying we can excercise free will, because the future is not pre-known.

However, Christians as far as I know believe in an omniscient god, and therefore in a future that is in fact pre-known. Not only that, but they also believe in the same god, being all-powerful, having created the world and everything in it. There can at best be an illusion of free will in such a scenario, and a god who then turns around and blames his creation for being what they are... well, "spoiled child" would be the best way to describe such behaviour.

thebigbiffo

prinz wrote: »

You acknowledge our freedom of choice.... and then claim we act as intended... we can't have both. Either we have the choice to act as we see fit or we don't. You can't accept our free will and then say we have been programmed to act a certain way..

its you that claims we act as 'intended' because you're the one who believes we were created. shenshen did not contradict himself anywhere. maybe its best from now on if you actually use the quotes to prove someone said something - a simple reference is not good enough and it's why we have the quote ability.

thebigbiffo

prinz wrote: »

We weren't created greedy, selfish, money hungry dicks.... that was all our work.

come on man! god created us in his likeness - he must have developed these traits himself then!

prinz

Shenshen wrote: »

I'm not saying that we're programmed. I'm saying we can excercise free will, because the future is not pre-known.
However, Christians as far as I know believe in an omniscient god, and therefore in a future that is in fact pre-known..

All possible futures are preknown to such a god, so many it's an infinite number of possible outcomes. Still doesn't affect free will, we are the masters of our own future. I could swear we've been through this before.

Shenshen

prinz wrote: »

All possible futures are preknown to such a god. Still doesn't affect free will, we are the masters of our own future. I could swear we've been through this before.

So god knows all possible futures, but is utterl;y clueless as to which one is going to be the actual future?

Not my idea of omniscient, and not the dictionary's, either.

Edit : Yes, we've been here before, and you never answered to this question.

Snakeblood

thebigbiffo wrote: »

come on man! god created us in his likeness - he must have developed these traits himself then!

I think prinz is saying that after being turfed out of the garden of eden (when we were without sin) we got those habits ourselves, which would be the traditional teaching. God created man, man was tempted by snake, Man gets kicked out of Eden.

I don't agree in the least mind.