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The Protest

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    #62
    EduKate
    Registered Users Posts: 104 ✭✭EduKate


    ironclaw wrote: »
    Just on that point, because it came up today with a mate. The current college and school system is paid for by the exchequer, of which a large part of its reserves comes from the tax payer. Now, most of these tax payers have gone through college, so arn't we already paying for the education of those behind us when we leave to work? Isn't that enough? I had my education, now to pay for someone else's because the people ahead of me did. Money just doesn't come from nowhere.

    Yup, basically you'll repay the cost of your own tuition, plus provide an additional 86,000 USD (OECD average) because you graduated from college. From the OECDs Education at a Glance Report 2010:
    ..the net public return is almost three times the cost of investing in tertiary education, which means there is a strong incentive for governments to expand higher education.

    On average across countries, the net public return from an investment in tertiary education exceeds USD 86 000 for a male student, accounting for the main cost and benefits at this level of education. This is almost triple the amount of public investments made in tertiary education across OECD countries, and as such, provides a strong incentive for governments to expand higher education.

    For the public sector, the costs of education include direct expenditures on education (such as paying teachers' salaries), public-private transfers, and lost tax revenues on students' foregone earnings. The benefits include increased revenue from income taxes and social insurance payments on higher wages as well as a lower need for social transfers. But in practice, rising levels of education give rise to a much wider - and more complex - set of fiscal effects on the benefit side. For instance, better educated individuals generally have better health, which lowers public expenditure on provision of health care. Also, their earnings premium means they spend more on goods and services, which has wider economic benefits. However, data on these indirect effects of education are not readily available.
    Graph on the returns for public investment in tertiary education - http://bit.ly/aIzMeR


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    #63
    mloc
    Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭mloc


    ironclaw wrote: »
    Just on that point, because it came up today with a mate. The current college and school system is paid for by the exchequer, of which a large part of its reserves comes from the tax payer. Now, most of these tax payers have gone through college, so arn't we already paying for the education of those behind us when we leave to work? Isn't that enough? I had my education, now to pay for someone else's because the people ahead of me did. Money just doesn't come from nowhere.

    This one major problem I have with the Irish economy; the "sure it all comes from the same place anyway" mentality.

    This is the same reason we have farmers with ridiculous subsidies and far too many unneeded civil servants. We might as well call that what it is; expensive social welfare. It is argued if we reduce public service jobs we are putting more people on the dole; the reality is, they are already on the dole, we just call it something else, and pay them a lot more.


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    #64
    Fad
    Registered Users Posts: 7,231 ✭✭✭Fad


    They're now selling the tshirts for the protest for 3 quid.....

    Oh yes UCDSU, I will voluntarily pay for something that involves USI! :rolleyes:


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    #65
    the explorer
    Registered Users Posts: 153 ✭✭the explorer


    Fad wrote: »
    They're now selling the tshirts for the protest for 3 quid.....

    I heard that includes the bus into town aswell... I still wouldnt buy one though!


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    #66
    kev9100
    Registered Users Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭kev9100


    Fad wrote: »
    They're now selling the tshirts for the protest for 3 quid.....

    Oh yes UCDSU, I will voluntarily pay for something that involves USI! :rolleyes:


    Why do you hate the SU so much? I'm not in UCD long, but they seem grand enough.


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    #67
    delta_bravo
    Registered Users Posts: 4,567 ✭✭✭delta_bravo


    kev9100 wrote: »
    Why do you hate the SU so much? I'm not in UCD long, but they seem grand enough.

    You'll learn son. You'll learn.


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    #68
    parker kent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    mloc wrote: »
    This is the same reason we have farmers with ridiculous subsidies and far too many unneeded civil servants. We might as well call that what it is; expensive social welfare. It is argued if we reduce public service jobs we are putting more people on the dole; the reality is, they are already on the dole, we just call it something else, and pay them a lot more.

    Not all public service jobs are waste, teachers, librarians, guards etc are all worthwhile. The real waste is the people sitting around in offices. I'd much rather fewer office-type civil service jobs and an increase in public service jobs such as teachers and librarians.


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    #69
    Fad
    Registered Users Posts: 7,231 ✭✭✭Fad


    kev9100 wrote: »
    Why do you hate the SU so much? I'm not in UCD long, but they seem grand enough.

    I dont hate the SU, I would go insofar as to say I'm one of the few people who post here who actually like parts of it (It is incredibly bloated in parts), however, I want nothing to do with USI, which is a separate entity to the SU.....


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    #70
    TimeToShine
    Registered Users Posts: 4,881 ✭✭✭TimeToShine


    kev9100 wrote: »
    Why do you hate the SU so much? I'm not in UCD long, but they seem grand enough.

    They take your money and spend it on 4 star hotels and Stella for the D4 class reps training weekend and then bítch about fees and charge a fúcking fortune in their shop instead of subsidising and charge a fúcking euro for hot water and think they actually make a difference when they don't.


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    #71
    Conor108
    Registered Users Posts: 3,871 ✭✭✭Conor108


    TimeToShine wrote: »
    They take your money and spend it on 4 star hotels and Stella for the D4 class reps training weekend and then bítch about fees and charge a fúcking fortune in their shop instead of subsidising and charge a fúcking euro for hot water and think they actually make a difference when they don't.

    Never a truer word spoken! 11 grand to learn how to set up few facebook pages and organise the odd night out.


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    #72
    mloc
    Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭mloc


    parker kent wrote: »
    Not all public service jobs are waste, teachers, librarians, guards etc are all worthwhile. The real waste is the people sitting around in offices. I'd much rather fewer office-type civil service jobs and an increase in public service jobs such as teachers and librarians.

    I agree. 100%.


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    #73
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,503 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    I'm loving the leaflets promoting the protest march to help students who are already on the breadline on one side and then on the other side promoting the Halloween Ball.

    I mean, FFS. :rolleyes:


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    #74
    the explorer
    Registered Users Posts: 153 ✭✭the explorer


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    I'm loving the leaflets promoting the protest march to help students who are already on the breadline on one side and then on the other side promoting the Halloween Ball.

    I mean, FFS.

    I saw that today, Promoting a night out which will cost about 35-40 euro min.

    I wonder what kind of a net loss the SU will make on this whole protest,
    taking into account leaflet printing, t-shirts and the buses into town.

    I doubt €3 each for a tshirt and bus will cover it.:rolleyes:


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    #75
    HQvhs
    Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭HQvhs


    They could take it from the class rep training fund:rolleyes:


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    #76
    Chet T16
    Registered Users Posts: 2,320 ✭✭✭Chet T16


    I got my t-shirt today.

    3 euro, sure you wouldn't beat it in penneys.

    I'll be damned if i'm going on any protest.


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    #77
    Conor108
    Registered Users Posts: 3,871 ✭✭✭Conor108


    Chet T16 wrote: »
    I got my t-shirt today.

    3 euro, sure you wouldn't beat it in penneys.

    I'll be damned if i'm going on any protest.

    I was thinking the same :) How is the shirt actually? Quality-wise?


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    #78
    Chet T16
    Registered Users Posts: 2,320 ✭✭✭Chet T16


    Conor108 wrote: »
    I was thinking the same :) How is the shirt actually? Quality-wise?

    Its grand, its the usual UCD fruit of the loom quality.


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    #79
    MavisDavis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,263 ✭✭✭MavisDavis


    I love how the SU are apparently spending twenty grand on "promotion and participation" in the protest.

    That's my money. Stop wasting it. Not everyone in UCD agrees with this "protest".


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    #80
    kev9100
    Registered Users Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭kev9100


    MavisDavis wrote: »
    I love how the SU are apparently spending twenty grand on "promotion and participation" in the protest.

    That's my money. Stop wasting it. Not everyone in UCD agrees with this "protest".

    Don't say that to any in the SU. They don't take it well.:)

    I'll be honest, the main reason I'm going is because most of my friends are going.


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    #81
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    MavisDavis wrote: »
    I love how the SU are apparently spending twenty grand on "promotion and participation" in the protest.

    That's my money. Stop wasting it. Not everyone in UCD agrees with this "protest".

    I posted a reply to a guy on one of my class groups when he complained about the ATTACK on low wage workers. The same low wage workers who's kids don't have to pay a cent towards college. I'm guessing the protest is gonna be full of those SWP types and I would wager that the vast majority of the people there will have not read a newspaper in the last month.

    If I wanted to hang out with the SWP for the day I'd just go down to the local dole office.

    *zing*


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    #82
    kev9100
    Registered Users Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭kev9100


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    I posted a reply to a guy on one of my class groups when he complained about the ATTACK on low wage workers. The same low wage workers who's kids don't have to pay a cent towards college. I'm guessing the protest is gonna be full of those SWP types and I would wager that the vast majority of the people there will have not read a newspaper in the last month.

    If I wanted to hang out with the SWP for the day I'd just go down to the local dole office.

    *zing*

    Tbh, you come across as a bit of a twat in that post. This recession has hit everyone hard and people have a right to protest.


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    #83
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    kev9100 wrote: »
    Tbh, you come across as a bit of a twat in that post. This recession has hit everyone hard and people have a right to protest.

    No it hasn't.
    The people taking the brunt of the hit's are the middle classes. You know, the people who actually pay income tax?
    Once again I'll have to reiterate I won't be getting into any arguments on economics with someone who is unable to comprehend the situation this country is in and to be frank, doesn't have a clue.


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    #84
    kev9100
    Registered Users Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭kev9100


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    No it hasn't.
    The people taking the brunt of the hit's are the middle classes. You know, the people who actually pay income tax?
    Once again I'll have to reiterate I won't be getting into any arguments on economics with someone who is unable to comprehend the situation this country is in and to be frank, doesn't have a clue.


    I'm not interested in getting into an economics argument either and yes the middle-class has taken a monumental hit. Its just I think the working classes are also suffering.


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    #85
    parker kent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    No it hasn't.
    The people taking the brunt of the hit's are the middle classes. You know, the people who actually pay income tax?
    Once again I'll have to reiterate I won't be getting into any arguments on economics with someone who is unable to comprehend the situation this country is in and to be frank, doesn't have a clue.

    Your posts have a remarkable way of irritating me in this thread.

    Edit: I highly doubt you would post such inflammatory posts had you grown up in one of the low income families that you seem to dread so much. Feel free to argue about political and economic decisions, but you should really refrain from talking about some segments of society as if they were something you had just scraped off your shoe.


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    #86
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    parker kent wrote: »
    Your posts have a remarkable way of irritating me in this thread.

    Edit: I highly doubt you would post such inflammatory posts had you grown up in one of the low income families that you seem to dread so much. Feel free to argue about political and economic decisions, but you should really refrain from talking about some segments of society as if they were something you had just scraped off your shoe.

    boohoo?

    Low income families are given grants to go to college and don't even have to pay registration fees. What more would you like done for them?
    Also, low income families won't be paying income tax either, therefore will benefit greatly from our system without having to pay very much towards it.


    Oh and one more thing, don't presume I didn't grow up in a low income family - just because I don't agree with you does not mean I'm some rich guy who's here to trample all over poor people. I'm just a realist.


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    #87
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    I so wanted to go to this protest, but I have a Vector Calculus exam on Wednesday at 3pm and I'm afraid I would get back in time to sit the exam.


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    #88
    kev9100
    Registered Users Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭kev9100


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    boohoo?

    Low income families are given grants to go to college and don't even have to pay registration fees. What more would you like done for them?


    Yes, and that grant has helped many working-class students go to college and is in the fireing-line to be cut. I just think thats very unfair.

    Now, do I think this protest has been well organised or wll change anything? No, but I have no problem with people protesting against this horrific government.


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    #89
    delta_bravo
    Registered Users Posts: 4,567 ✭✭✭delta_bravo


    MavisDavis wrote: »
    I love how the SU are apparently spending twenty grand on "promotion and participation" in the protest.

    That's my money. Stop wasting it. Not everyone in UCD agrees with this "protest".

    Have you a source for that figure? Seems almost too high, even for the su


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    #90
    parker kent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    boohoo?

    Low income families are given grants to go to college and don't even have to pay registration fees. What more would you like done for them?
    Also, low income families won't be paying income tax either, therefore will benefit greatly from our system without having to pay very much towards it.

    I have already pointed out at length in this thread what else I think could be done. EduKate covered much of what I think as well.

    Getting free fees the only advantage lower income families have in the education system. Almost every other facet of the education system is geared towards other sectors of society. I would readily have swapped my grant for a better first 18 years of my life.

    Also anybody from a low income family that goes to college thanks to the grants is likely to pay much more back in tax than they would otherwise have done. So your logic is flawed.

    Lastly, it is impossible to argue these points properly in short posts on here. The very nature of it requires deeper analysis. Things like fees, graduate tax and a complete overhaul of the social welfare system cannot be properly argued in posts of around 2 or 3 hundred words.


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    #91
    papajimsmooth
    Registered Users Posts: 779 ✭✭✭papajimsmooth


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    boohoo?

    Low income families are given grants to go to college and don't even have to pay registration fees. What more would you like done for them?
    Also, low income families won't be paying income tax either, therefore will benefit greatly from our system without having to pay very much towards it.


    Oh and one more thing, don't presume I didn't grow up in a low income family - just because I don't agree with you does not mean I'm some rich guy who's here to trample all over poor people. I'm just a realist.

    I agree completely with this, if the registration fees are to be increased to 3000e then they should be applied across the board not just for middle class families. My family is putting three of us through college which will result in a 9000e registration fee that will have to be paid. With the new taxs that are planned for the budget your looking at earning 20,000euro before you get 9000 take home pay. Why should I have to get a loan out to pay for college when someone who is on a free ride with grants and free fees just because there families are lower income bracket. College education isnt a right, I have no problem getting a loan to pay for fees I just think that so should everybody else.


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