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The Protest

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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,246 ✭✭✭✭Riamfada


    EduKate wrote: »
    Ah, the old 'out of context' get out clause.

    The reason the links are there is so that people don't have to rely on a single clip, there's multiple clips and photos. Most of the footage is from 'ordinary' students that they've uploaded to youtube or Flickr, and have no involvement in FEE.

    The people in the video, in your words, did not show "any agression towards the Gardai" but were still beaten. Is that misleading? Are you misleading yourself now?

    EduKate wrote: »
    Your image is misleading and out of context. It should be taken down because I don't agree with it. :P

    Glad I can illustrate that point

    Okay lets back up here for a moment. A few people broke away from the main protests and started attacking Gardai, a very small number of these rioters seem to have been injured.They started a riot and they got injured. What do you expect.

    Anywhoooo ..... its off the news,its off the main page of boards. The government are releasing information on the new budget today which is far more important to the people who acutally pay fees, the parents.

    No point in rushing for that train Lenin, false start to this revolution.

    Just to illustrate, I have absoultely no time for the Gardai, Gary Redmond is an ardent Fianna Failer running an left wing organisation and FEE are predominantly (in UCD anyway) spoiled, unemployed yet always have money for rent, food and party middle class children.So im not really sure who wins in this situation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 104 ✭✭EduKate


    Grimes wrote: »
    Okay lets back up here for a moment. A few people broke away from the main protests and started attacking Gardai, a very small number of these rioters seem to have been injured.They started a riot and they got injured. What do you expect.

    Judging by this statement, I guess you weren't there. Am I correct?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,612 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    All I see in those Garda brutality videos is a group of well organised police effectively moving a protest along. Maybe you guys don't quite understand how this works? You weren't allowed be on Merrion Row, regardless of whether you were throwing eggs, throwing cans, chanting, occupying the lobby of the department of finance or throwing bricks at police. Your right to protest was granted, your protest marched, caused massive disruption in the capital, and was scheduled to finish in Merrion Square and disperse.

    It didn't. You went to Merrion row, you provoked the police, you illegally entered a government building and refused to leave then you decided to invoke your right to sit in the middle of the street? As a the driver of a car I would have invoked my right to RUN YOU DOWN (ok I don't have the right, but you get the point). And the Gardai moved in, they gave you explicit instructions to move back. When you didn't they pushed you with shields, when that didn't work that tapped you with their batons.

    You moan about girls being hit, thats gender equality in my book? But in that video you see a girl get dragged through, I believe that was actually the police showing mercy, and purposely not hitting her. They still had to move her on.

    Police 1 - 0 Smelly lefty republican usi hacks


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,246 ✭✭✭✭Riamfada


    EduKate wrote: »
    Judging by this statement, I guess you weren't there. Am I correct?

    Unfortunately I was not, therefore I dont really know and like everyone who wasnt there is not in a position to have an opinon on it.Thats okay me and everyone else in the country will just move along now, nothing to see here.

    You have ignored almost every point I have made, you'd make a great Fianna Failer. However,errlloyd seems to have been there and Id be more happy to believe his account of what happened over typical dangerous bolshevick propoganda.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    EduKate wrote: »
    Judging by this statement, I guess you weren't there. Am I correct?

    I've never been to Egypt, yet I've seen pretty conclusive evidence it exists. Same way that Grimes and myself have seen pretty conclusive evidence that the protesters broke the agreed protest route and were basically asking for trouble.

    I think Errlloyd sums it up pretty well. If you cause trouble, expect consequences. It was hardly the Tiananmen Square massacre, they just dealt with a protest that had gone way off course and was causing extreme and often illegal disruption. The protesters that did that have really screwed over the people who wanted to make a legitimate protest.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    From the Irish Times today.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/1104/1224282635235.html?via=mr
    THE LARGEST student protest in a generation was marred yesterday by violent clashes in which bricks, beer cans, eggs and placards were hurled at gardaí.

    The Union of Students in Ireland (USI), which mobilised over 25,000 for the protest, distanced itself from a group of breakaway protesters involved in clashes outside the Department of Finance on Merrion Street, Dublin.

    The USI blamed “left-wing” groups for the “destructive and anti-social violence” which it said would only divert attention from its campaign against higher student fees.

    Supporters of Sinn Féin, the Socialist Workers Party and republican socialist group Éirígí were prominent among about 50 protesters who made it inside the Finance building, only to be swiftly ejected by gardaí.

    Gardaí in riot gear drew their batons and mounted officers were deployed during clashes with several youths that lasted about 45 minutes.

    Some protesters suffered cuts to the head and bloody noses during the scuffles.

    One garda was admitted to hospital with a broken nose, while two others were treated at the scene for minor injuries.

    There were three arrests. The suspects were taken to Pearse Street Garda station, and one had been released without charge last night. The other two were charged with criminal damage and breach of the peace offences and released.

    Gardaí believe a core of “militant and aggressive” protesters not connected with the USI had hijacked the event.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,612 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    And you know those 2 Garda treated at the scene probably had the worst injuries of anyone, just they're not mummy's little precious child.



    On a related note Kate, or anyone else. If you think this boards argument is getting you nowhere, Lawsoc are having the fees debate on Tuesday, I personally will be speaking and have no fear of coming out from behind my PC and telling UCD SU I think they're muppets.

    You're very welcome to come along and tell me I am one too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 104 ✭✭EduKate


    Grimes wrote: »
    Unfortunately I was not, therefore I dont really know and like everyone who wasnt there is not in a position to have an opinon on it.Thats okay me and everyone else in the country will just move along now, nothing to see here.

    Where did I say that you,or anyone else couldn't have an opinion? Please, point it out. It was obvious from the order of events you outlined that you weren't there. It was misleading and out of context.
    All I see in those Garda brutality videos is a group of well organised police effectively moving a protest along. Maybe you guys don't quite understand how this works? You weren't allowed be on Merrion Row, regardless of whether you were throwing eggs, throwing cans, chanting, occupying the lobby of the department of finance or throwing bricks at police. Your right to protest was granted, your protest marched, caused massive disruption in the capital, and was scheduled to finish in Merrion Square and disperse.

    Your account has timeline issues, is this because you also weren't there?

    Refusing to comply with the Gardai, an occupation etc are all illegal. There are usually 2 ways of dealing with this kind of thing. 1) Arrest the people, chuck them in the van and send them off to Pearse Street 2) Stand there until the students get bored and leave.

    Instead the Gardai took what was a non-violent protest, and started batoning people/trampling over those sitting down with horses. A minority reacted, mostly by throwing empty plastic bottles.
    And you know those 2 Garda treated at the scene probably had the worst injuries of anyone
    Injuries to the Gardai were probably worse? Worse than this - http://free-education.info/photos-gardai-leave-students-bloody-and-bruised-at-national-student-protest-in-dublin/ Anything to back that up with?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,612 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    I was not taking part in the protest, however I was there as an observer. I spent some time around Kildare street around half 1 till 2, then I got food, then I went back to Stephen's green to get a bus when I saw the events on Merrion Row.

    My account has no timeline issues.

    There are more then 2 ways of dealing with it, but firstly lets highlight the issues with your two suggestions.

    Would have taken a whole lot of vans to move on the people outside the department of finance. And you really expect us to believe that had the police started to arrest everyone, no protester would have resisted? Leading to the same end?

    Standing around? While they cause massive levels of disruption, while rush hour begins to start? While they vandalise government buildings? While the crowd continues to swell and continues to drink?

    Now my suggestion...

    You call in the Garda Public Order Unit, and you get them to do what they did... Couple people get bloody noses, couple people get arrested, everyone wakes up hungover. Its like a night in coppers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 104 ✭✭EduKate


    There's a high quality 10 minute video from Irish Network TV (not Bolsheviks) at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPnoAY1wXfI


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,246 ✭✭✭✭Riamfada


    Those horses are so cool.Looks like all the recent riot training the Gardai have been put through was a good use of the tax payers money. All I can see is militant groups antagonising the Gardai and attempting to provoke a response so they can use it as a weapon. Mostly I just see the Gardai executing fairly well co-oridinated ant riot proceedures.

    I see very little about fees in that video, just people squaring up the the Gardai and calling them scumbags, disturbing business and communters in the city center . Plus at 3:56 the bloke is hardly a student. Should have arrested the whole lot of them in my opinion.

    Very few USI shirts there and that does not look like a peacful protest.All I see there is the SWP getting a well deserved and much overdue ass kicking.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,246 ✭✭✭✭Riamfada


    Glad to know the Gardai wont pull any punches when it comes to the SWP, SF or militant groups so we can expect a swift put down to anything like this in the future.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,246 ✭✭✭✭Riamfada


    I particularly like the Garda response to the drumbeat at 6:11. Hope they bashed that grum good. Follwed by "dey cant fuckin do dat". Sorry mate, but they can.

    Funny video. Thanks for the memories.


  • Registered Users Posts: 104 ✭✭EduKate


    Grimes wrote: »
    Funny video. Thanks for the memories.

    And you wanted the links I put up taken down. Your welcome. I take it that this one is more to your liking, and therefore, not out of context or misleading. :P


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,612 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    Grimes wrote: »
    I particularly like the Garda response to the drumbeat at 6:11. Hope they bashed that grum good. Follwed by "dey cant fuckin do dat". Sorry mate, but they can.

    Funny video. Thanks for the memories.

    Holy **** that was impressive. Took them what thirty seconds flat to push that protest right off Merrion Row and back around the green.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,246 ✭✭✭✭Riamfada


    For the past few months that Gardai have been doing extensive riot training preparing and all that gear looks very new. The entire thing was very well co-ordinated, not at all like I would have expected from An Garda.

    They also prevented what could have been a bloody mess, quite literally in the interest of the health and safety of the general public.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,880 ✭✭✭Raphael


    EduKate wrote: »
    There's a high quality 10 minute video from Irish Network TV (not Bolsheviks) at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPnoAY1wXfI
    Good video, really shows the exact opposite to the point your making. The Gardaí handled themselves extremely well, and nothing they did could be classified as police brutality - brutality implies a disproportionate response, How they carried themselves was completely appropriate.

    Few points from the video though:

    All these horrible injuries people sustained? **** right off. Those were small head wounds, every one. I don't know if you've ever had a small head wound, but they bleed like you wouldn't ****ing believe.

    The guy at 1:55 standing between the gardai and the students, in a protest tshirt, trying to get them all to back the **** down - who is that guy, and how can we go about getting him his medal? Nice to see that one person there wasn't a ****ing idiot. Peaceful protest my arse, it stopped being peaceful when abuse and projectiles were being flung at gardai, which was before the riot shields came out.


  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    A protest won't do anything. Yknow what'll kill fees? If thousands of students register in September and simply REFUSE to pay. All the people in that protest wanted was a doss day and an excuse to cause trouble.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,246 ✭✭✭✭Riamfada


    A protest won't do anything. Yknow what'll kill fees? If thousands of students register in September and simply REFUSE to pay. All the people in that protest wanted was a doss day and an excuse to cause trouble.

    That wont happen becuase the majority of student's parents pay their reg fees and therefore fees dont really affect students.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,880 ✭✭✭Raphael


    A protest won't do anything. Yknow what'll kill fees? If thousands of students register in September and simply REFUSE to pay. All the people in that protest wanted was a doss day and an excuse to cause trouble.
    Also, the disadvantage of that is that you're keeping money out of the hands of the University, who are already underfunded. Wheras the people whose decision has actually increased it, is the government. So the University suffers for the Governments decision. Savvy?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭mloc


    I think the Gardai acted very professionally in that video. I was genuinely impressed.

    The protest was shameful. Students seem to be so out of touch with reality, ignoring the most simple to understand of facts:

    a) Universities are hugely underfunded
    b) The exchequer is in serious, long-term financial trouble

    Where do they expect the money to come from? What is the point of the protest?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    EduKate wrote: »
    Your account has timeline issues, is this because you also weren't there?

    Refusing to comply with the Gardai, an occupation etc are all illegal. There are usually 2 ways of dealing with this kind of thing. 1) Arrest the people, chuck them in the van and send them off to Pearse Street 2) Stand there until the students get bored and leave.

    Instead the Gardai took what was a non-violent protest, and started batoning people/trampling over those sitting down with horses. A minority reacted, mostly by throwing empty plastic bottles.


    Injuries to the Gardai were probably worse? Worse than this - http://free-education.info/photos-gardai-leave-students-bloody-and-bruised-at-national-student-protest-in-dublin/ Anything to back that up with?

    Would you disagree with this timeline of events?

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1104/1224282635068.html?via=rel
    1pm:

    The march began at Parnell Square. Gardaí have estimated the crowd at 15,000, whereas the Union of Students in Ireland put the figure at over 40,000.

    1.40pm:

    A small group departed early from the march route along Nassau Street and went straight to the front gates of the Dáil on Kildare Street [MAP 4], where some protesters climbed poles and threw plastic bottles and cans over the front gate of Leinster House. Socialist Workers Party flags were visible within the group. The march organisers quickly pushed them on and reunited them with the main marching body.

    2.55pm:

    A man not dressed in official student protest clothing with a megaphone urged the main group, gathering at Merrion Square, to come down to the Department of Finance building around the corner. A rush of people followed.

    3pm:

    A group of about 40 entered the lobby of the building . Gardaí managed to remove close to half of these and were then forced to barricade in the remaining 20. A group of several hundred now gathered outside the building, with a line of gardaí at the entrance between them and the protesters trapped inside. There were numerous Socialist Workers Party and Éirígí flags in the crowd. A brick was thrown at the wall of the building, along with bottles, cans and signs at the gardaí.

    3.05pm:

    A Garda horseback unit and three vans arrived outside the building, dividing the group outside in half. The protesters began a sit-down protest in front of the horseback unit.

    3.10pm:

    Gardaí in full riot gear arrived and took up position between the other gardaí and protesters. The gardaí began removing protesters they had previously trapped in the lobby. There were physical altercations between them and a female garda was struck. Some of the protesters exited with evidence of a beating on their faces.

    3.15pm:

    The last protester left inside was brought out. The riot squad pushed forward against the crowd and created some space around the entrance.

    3.15-3.35pm:

    Slowly the protesters were moved back under continuing pressure. One garda on horseback was seen bleeding from the lip.

    3.35pm:

    Riot police charged, followed by the unit on horseback, and pushed the entire crowd back to a spot adjacent to the Shelbourne Hotel . Several gardaí with dogs were also present.

    3.40pm:

    There was another riot police charge along with the unit on horseback, which drove the protest back to a spot beside Anglo Irish Bank.

    Gardaí then continued to move and disperse those who were left among the crowd.

    3.50pm:

    The remnants of the crowd outside the Department of Finance building joined a sit-down protest outside the gates of Leinster House , bringing the total there to about 300 protesters.

    4.10pm:

    Following the conclusion of the sit-down protest, which ended without incident, a member of the Free Education for Everyone organisation announced they would be marching to Pearse Street Garda station, where they believed several arrested protesters had been brought.

    4.25pm:

    The group of less than 30 protesters arrived outside the Pearse Street Garda station, where eight gardaí waited at the entrance. The protesters stood outside and chanted slogans calling for the students’ release.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    To finally finish shooting my load on Irish Times links :D, I liked this article the other day about free fees and their effects on Irish education.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1103/1224282560395.html
    Socioeconomic factors are still key in deciding whether someone attends university or not, writes SEÁN FLYNN

    WILL THE new €2,500 student contribution fee block the way to college for working-class students?

    Advocates of the “free fees” regime argue that the abolition of fees in 1995 transformed third-level education, making it accessible to large swathes of people who had never expected to make it to college.

    But a series of expert reports and analysis from the Higher Education Authority does little to support this view.

    The most comprehensive analysis of the issue, published earlier this year, is unambiguous in its finding: the abolition of university tuition fees failed to improve the chances of poorer children getting to college.

    In a paper published by UCD’s Geary Institute, Dr Kevin Denny said the key factor to influence college entry was Leaving Cert points. He found that few children from working-class backgrounds secured enough points to gain a place in most university courses.

    By contrast, said the UCD economics lecturer, “the chances of a student from a white-collar background achieving low points are quite low”.

    Dr Denny’s research found that children with fathers from the professional class gained an average of 90 CAO points more than those whose fathers are manual workers.

    The report echoed the findings of a Higher Education Authority study last year which found that lower socio-economic groups such as manual workers, semi-skilled or unskilled workers, were still hugely under-represented on “blue chip” courses like medicine, pharmacy and law.

    Not one student entering university courses in pharmacy or medicine in 2008/2009 came from an unskilled background.

    In contrast, almost 50 per cent of medical students and over one-third of law students come from professional backgrounds.

    The authority’s report presented a familiar picture.

    The children of both higher professionals and lower professionals (such as teachers and nurses) are still over-represented at third level. Children of farmers are also particularly well represented. But those from poorer backgrounds are still hugely under represented. Authority chief executive Tom Boland has acknowledged that the access problem remains.

    “It is a remarkable feature of our higher education system that some of the high-profile professions have not become more diverse in their student intake. The socio-economic profile on these courses has changed very little over the past decade.”

    There is other evidence to support the view that free fees have made little impact on access. Former Dublin City University president Ferdinand von Prondzynski says the number of students from local areas like Ballymun and Finglas entering the college has increased only marginally in the past decade. Most of this increase, he says, could be linked to the university’s own access programmes rather than to the free fees initiative.

    The continuing under-representation of poorer children in college is all the more remarkable given the transformation that has taken place in the higher-education sector since 1995. In most colleges, available places have doubled in that time.

    Arguably, the main impact of the free fees regime has been in the fee-paying sector at second level, where numbers have boomed since the mid-1990s. Last year, more than 26,000 pupils were enrolled in the State’s private fee-paying schools. Most charge about €5,000 per year, generating an annual income of €100 million for the private education sector.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,871 ✭✭✭Conor108


    That video is immense! Fair play to the lads*

    Best bits are 4.20 when they're dragging people past riot shields,
    6.11 when the guards advance and your one at 8.05 being told she can't get her car

    :)



    *lads=guards


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 884 ✭✭✭ya-ba-da-ba-doo


    Grimes wrote: »
    Now if thats not sensationalist shiteim not sure what is. Was there really women and children getting the **** beaten out of them?

    Well yeah there was no kids hurt but listen up - I, and i'm sure a lot of other people, saw girls being shoved onto the ground by the gardaí.

    That's how the "shame on you" chants started.

    If I hadn't had seen it with my own eyes I wouldn't have believed what was going on. Some of those guards should be ashamed of themselves.

    And Grimes, some of your posts are becoming childish at this stage.. in fairness.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,246 ✭✭✭✭Riamfada


    And Grimes, some of your posts are becoming childish at this stage.. in fairness.

    Only some? I resent that. Anyway I thought you students were all for gender equality? What has the fact that some girls got pushed got to do with it considering there are no no children involved.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    Well yeah there was no kids hurt but listen up - I, and i'm sure a lot of other people, saw girls being shoved onto the ground by the gardaí.

    That's how the "shame on you" chants started.

    If I hadn't had seen it with my own eyes I wouldn't have believed what was going on. Some of those guards should be ashamed of themselves.

    And Grimes, some of your posts are becoming childish at this stage.. in fairness.

    If you read my link from the Irish Times, it shows that students roughed up a female Garda as well. Once things started being thrown (and all the other nonsense that happened too), the protest stopped being legitimate in my view. Any sort of violence has no place in a peaceful protest.

    I see nothing wrong with the Gardaí yesterday. They reacted very professionally in an extremely volatile atmosphere.


  • Registered Users Posts: 79 ✭✭Leonid


    mloc wrote: »
    I think the Gardai acted very professionally in that video. I was genuinely impressed.

    The protest was shameful. Students seem to be so out of touch with reality, ignoring the most simple to understand of facts:

    a) Universities are hugely underfunded
    b) The exchequer is in serious, long-term financial trouble

    Where do they expect the money to come from? What is the point of the protest?

    Hold on, maybe I'm mistaken but I was under the impression that the end of free fees would mean that instead of the government paying your fees you instead pay them or increased percentage of them. How does this solve the problem of underfunded universities? They'll still be receiving the same amount, only the money will be coming from somewhere else.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,167 ✭✭✭Notorious


    The lovely chaps from the 32 County SM got involved in the protest yesterday.
    ...The gardai aggressively manhandled protestors both inside and outside until the riot squad showed up. At that point protestors were thrown from the building whilst the gardai punched and kicked them. 32csm members fought back along with our republican and left wing comrades and the solidarity shown in the face of garda brutality was an example that should be followed in the future.

    http://dublin32countysm.blogspot.com/

    Looks like that shower of Mickey Mouse protesters kicked off a lot of the trouble.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,567 ✭✭✭delta_bravo


    I recognise one of them from around campus on that blog so we can claim one of them as our own. Great.


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