The Protest

mloc

Leonid wrote: »

Hold on, maybe I'm mistaken but I was under the impression that the end of free fees would mean that instead of the government paying your fees you instead pay them or increased percentage of them. How does this solve the problem of underfunded universities? They'll still be receiving the same amount, only the money will be coming from somewhere else.

Incorrect.

The end of free fees would mean that instead of relying on an ever decreasing per-student contribution from the government, which will be further curtailed with the cutbacks faced in education over the next four years, they would be free to charge a fixed amount for a degree from the student with a small contribution from the state, leading to a vastly increased total income.

Mardy Bum

This country is fucked.

Students, pensioners, the employed, the unemployed, sick and disabled people all being hit hard by the faults of others (mainly).

It is not in the nature of the ordinary Irish person to riot, unlike many countries, but the way things are going it may change.

errlloyd

delta_bravo wrote: »

I recognise one of them from around campus on that blog so we can claim one of them as our own. Great.

I know the one you're talking about. I dunno what the boards name and same policy is so I won't indicate to him. But that blog is almost the funniest thing I have ever read in my life.

Essentially "All the students there wanted to be violent, so we decided to facilitate them, but actually none of us were violent, just the police were violent"

MavisDavis

Notorious wrote: »

The lovely chaps from the 32 County SM got involved in the protest yesterday.



http://dublin32countysm.blogspot.com/

Looks like that shower of Mickey Mouse protesters kicked off a lot of the trouble.

I love how they manage to bring "resisting British rule" into even a student protest. I argued with those guys over Lisbon 1 (apparently we should have voted no to "yet another EU treaty that doesn't give us a United Ireland" - I laughed) and they're not worth it. Nut jobs.

I'm not entirely sure why they felt the need to attend the march as members of the political front for the RIRA, rather than as students, but then again, they rarely make much sense.

EduKate

Another video if you're a fan of Gardai beating people

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDNWS_VkL9Y

Here's one with backing music - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2qDpiMG4Os

ironclaw

EduKate wrote: »

Another video if you're a fan of Gardai beating people

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDNWS_VkL9Y

Seriously, what should have the Gardai done? "Ah here lads, enough of that" In a riot situation where your comrades and friends are having bricks hurled at them, you fight back. If you don't want to get stung, no swing at a bee hive. There is a huge difference between a protest and a riot. In a riot law and order have broken down, so don't expect to be gently sent on your way.

Also, in addition, and its a point I've made more than once, if you struggle to find an extra €1500 per year for college (€62.50 more per teaching week) then I sincerely doubt college is top of your priorities. College at €3000 per year is roughly €125 per teaching week (Excluding exams, holidays etc). If you worked part time 1.5 days per teaching week you'd pay for it. I know people that spend that on drink etc per week. If you worked for the entire summer you'd easily save €3000 to spend on reg fee's, and that is before you can claim a grant or get financial assistance.

All told anyone who tells me that €3000 is sky high is basically saying they couldn't arsed working. I've have more employment since the recession started, you just have to knuckle down and find it.

EduKate

ironclaw wrote: »

In a riot situation where your comrades and friends are having bricks hurled at them, you fight back.

Riot situation, with people sitting on the ground? The Gardai went in on people, then a brick was thrown. They're lucky it wasn't a molotov.

If we're going to be accused of rioting anyway, we might as well next time

mloc

EduKate wrote: »

Riot situation, with people sitting on the ground? The Gardai went in on people, then a brick was thrown. They're lucky it wasn't a molotov.

If we're going to be accused of rioting anyway, we might as well next time

That type of thinking is exactly why the economic recovery in Ireland will take twice as long as it should.

ironclaw

EduKate wrote: »

Riot situation, with people sitting on the ground? The Gardai went in on people, then a brick was thrown. They're lucky it wasn't a molotov.

If we're going to be accused of rioting anyway, we might as well next time

That goes against just about every protocol in the book. Any Garda I know as a last resort would throw a punch. In court, it will always rule against the Garda. It would make no sense to throw the first punch as a uniformed or uniformed member. Unless you have clear evidence, thats speculation.

EduKate

ironclaw wrote: »

That goes against just about every protocol in the book. Any Garda I know as a last resort would throw a punch. In court, it will always rule against the Garda. It would make no sense to throw the first punch as a uniformed or uniformed member. Unless you have clear evidence, thats speculation.

The video evidence is there, the eyewitness accounts are there. Complaints have been made to the Ombudsman, as reported by RTE http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1105/demonstration.html

Even the Independent said things were fine until the Gardai had a go at people inside the occupation. http://www.independent.ie/national-news/budget/news/peaceful-protest-turned-to-violence-in-an-instant-2406941.html

One girl was knocked unconscious inside the building, then thrown onto the concrete outside the Dept of Finance by Garda B556.

A facebook group has been set up to collect info - http://www.facebook.com/GardaAttackStudents

delta_bravo

EduKate wrote: »

The video evidence is there, the eyewitness accounts are there. Complaints have been made to the Ombudsman, as reported by RTE http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1105/demonstration.html

Even the Independent said things were fine until the Gardai had a go at people inside the occupation. http://www.independent.ie/national-news/budget/news/peaceful-protest-turned-to-violence-in-an-instant-2406941.html

One girl was knocked unconscious inside the building, then thrown onto the concrete outside the Dept of Finance by Garda B556.

A facebook group has been set up to collect info - http://www.facebook.com/GardaAttackStudents

I made a post similar to this in the Legal Discussion forum. Its the same story with any of these protests, regardless of the cause the most infirmed or vunerable person seems to somehow end up the victim of the "thuggery of the gardai". You always hear about the gender of a person injured if its a woman. Always find that odd.

The persons that went to Merrion Row and who sat on the street and trespassed into the Department of Finance offices were guilty of the offence of rioting under the Public Order Act,1994. It is immaterial whether they were throwing kisses or throwing bricks at the gardai - they were breaking the law and the gardai had complete rights to disperse the riot.

And you say that everything was fine until Gardai "had a go" at those inside the Department of Finance. They were breaking the law by being there! What did you expect the Gardai to do? It is a private building, you are asked to leave - you refuse. Well then you are trespassing and breaking the law. It is therefore the job of the Gardai to eject those from the building by force if necessary and arrest them if they refuse or resist.

ironclaw

delta_bravo wrote: »

I made a post similar to this in the Legal Discussion forum. Its the same story with any of these protests, regardless of the cause the most infirmed or vunerable person seems to somehow end up the victim of the "thuggery of the gardai". You always hear about the gender of a person injured if its a woman. Always find that odd.

The persons that went to Merrion Row and who sat on the street and trespassed into the Department of Finance offices were guilty of the offence of rioting under the Public Order Act,1994. It is immaterial whether they were throwing kisses or throwing bricks at the gardai - they were breaking the law and the gardai had complete rights to disperse the riot.

And you say that everything was fine until Gardai "had a go" at those inside the Department of Finance. They were breaking the law by being there! What did you expect the Gardai to do? It is a private building, you are asked to leave - you refuse. Well then you are trespassing and breaking the law. It is therefore the job of the Gardai to eject those from the building by force if necessary and arrest them if they refuse or resist.

Why are there not more rational people like yourself in this world?

The video evidence is there, the eyewitness accounts are there. Complaints have been made to the Ombudsman, as reported by RTE http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1105/demonstration.html

Show it to me. The evidence is there to show JFK was shot from behind and from the front, and from the side, and from space and by the Cubans. Show me clear cut evidence.

Even the Independent said things were fine until the Gardai had a go at people inside the occupation. http://www.independent.ie/national-n...t-2406941.html

You even use the word occupation. Trespass is more like it. I would not expect any Garda to treat me with compassion for trespass on an official government building.

One girl was knocked unconscious inside the building, then thrown onto the concrete outside the Dept of Finance by Garda B556.

If she was unconscious she should have seeked medical attention, thus a PHECC / hospital chain of events and record will be evident. Show them to me.

A facebook group has been set up to collect info - http://www.facebook.com/GardaAttackStudents

FaceBook? Are you serious? Using a social network to collect hard evidence? I hope you have it on film as digital photography is inadmissible in court.

EduKate

delta_bravo wrote: »

I made a post similar to this in the Legal Discussion forum. Its the same story with any of these protests, regardless of the cause the most infirmed or vunerable person seems to somehow end up the victim of the "thuggery of the gardai". You always hear about the gender of a person injured if its a woman. Always find that odd.

The persons that went to Merrion Row and who sat on the street and trespassed into the Department of Finance offices were guilty of the offence of rioting under the Public Order Act,1994. It is immaterial whether they were throwing kisses or throwing bricks at the gardai - they were breaking the law and the gardai had complete rights to disperse the riot.

And you say that everything was fine until Gardai "had a go" at those inside the Department of Finance. They were breaking the law by being there! What did you expect the Gardai to do? It is a private building, you are asked to leave - you refuse. Well then you are trespassing and breaking the law. It is therefore the job of the Gardai to eject those from the building by force if necessary and arrest them if they refuse or resist.

FEE occupied the Dept of Finance in 2009, no batons were used - http://free-education.info/indymedia-students-occupy-and-blockade-the-department-of-finance-in-opposition-to-the-budget/
FEE lead a breakway March in 2008, no batons were used.
CFE occupied the Dept of Transport overnight in 2003, no batons were used http://www.indymedia.ie/article/49102

If she was unconscious she should have seeked medical attention, thus a PHECC / hospital chain of events and record will be evident. Show them to me.

You can see here 3 minutes in - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8VkkC6PP74
She was taken away in an ambulance, as seen by everyone there. It's also in one of the other videos (I've lost track, there's that many on youtube).

Show it to me. The evidence is there to show JFK was shot from behind and from the front, and from the side, and from space and by the Cubans. Show me clear cut evidence

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-REt8kCjCRo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7v3Hxw3qno

Really, yis don't give a toss who started it. They were there, they deserved a hiding, I get it.

delta_bravo

EduKate wrote: »

FEE occupied the Dept of Finance in 2009, no batons were used - http://free-education.info/indymedia-students-occupy-and-blockade-the-department-of-finance-in-opposition-to-the-budget/
FEE lead a breakway March in 2008, no batons were used.
CFE occupied the Dept of Transport overnight in 2003, no batons were used -http://www.indymedia.ie/article/49102

And did they pelt the Gardai with beer cans and other missiles in those sit ins? Because in that RTE video you can clearly see gardai being hit by objects.

Bobby42

they were all so brave holding their signs and banners during the march, then as soon as the gardai take out a batton its straight into victim mode screaming "brutality"!!!! all they had to do was comply with the gardai and there wouldn't have been a problem. the gardai have law and order to maintain.
and facebook, seriously? "the court will now view the submitted evidence from the facebook photo album":rolleyes:

EduKate

delta_bravo wrote: »

And did they pelt the Gardai with beer cans and other missiles in those sit ins? Because in that RTE video you can clearly see gardai being hit by objects.

Thats the least they should expect if they start knocking people unconscious, batoning students and trampling others on horses..

IT breaking news says that the Garda Ombudman has launched an investigation - http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1105/breaking43.html

delta_bravo

EduKate wrote: »

Thats the least they should expect if they start knocking people unconscious, batoning students and trampling others on horses..

IT breaking news says that the Garda Ombudman has launched an investigation - http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1105/breaking43.html

Its not really news that it has launched an investigation. It is obliged to investigate any complaint made by the public about a member of AGS. I would highly doubt there will be any disciplinary action based on the footage I have seen. You cant really complain about excessive force in the middle of a riot.

EduKate

delta_bravo wrote: »

. I would highly doubt there will be any disciplinary action ...

Unfortunately I agree, for different reasons.

errlloyd

Kate there is simply no case...

No matter how many videos you link, Gardai used the absolute minimum force required. Luckily I believe that in this age of information no Garda will be put before a disciplinary hearing, as I truly believe the Garda were the heroes of the day. Not just the lads with the shields, but the normal guys. Who stood there and took missiles, and took abuse, and only retaliated when their own safety was in danger.

Raphael

EduKate wrote: »

Thats the least they should expect if they start knocking people unconscious, batoning students and trampling others on horses..

IT breaking news says that the Garda Ombudman has launched an investigation - http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1105/breaking43.html

Yep, that investigation being based on the whopping 3 complaints they received.

EduKate

Raphael wrote: »

Yep, that investigation being based on the whopping 3 complaints they received.

12, so far. http://irishexaminer.ie/ireland/12-complaints-to-ombudsman-over-policing-of-student-protest-135603.html

Most people people won't put in a complaint.

Riamfada

Joe Higgins made a statement based on videos from camera phones he was shown and released it to the press.

ironclaw

EduKate wrote: »

Really, yis don't give a toss who started it. They were there, they deserved a hiding, I get it.

Actually I don't agree with that. I care about fee's but what I will not stand for is misinformation. The Gardai acted when threatened and in all the videos I've watched its clear the crowd are not peacefully protesting.

In this video, that you linked, you can clearly see the Gardai holding a cordon while on TWO occasions an object is thrown. Then a couple of seconds later the Gardai move forward and strike the ground in front of them.

In this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-REt8kCjCRo), if you could call it that, its extremely hard to see whats going on. But I see no evidence of brutality. The Gardai are moving a crowd. I acknowledge they use batons but I don't see anyone being struck.

Also, seems to be glossed over but its clear to see BEER cans being thrown. Why the beer?

Also on another note, I have to say the so called head injuries don't look consistant with being struck by a batton. You'd be lucky to be standing after being hit with a Garda baton.

EduKate

In this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-REt8kCjCRo), if you could call it that, its extremely hard to see whats going on. But I see no evidence of brutality. The Gardai are moving a crowd. I acknowledge they use batons but I don't see anyone being struck....Also on another note, I have to say the so called head injuries don't look consistant with being struck by a batton. You'd be lucky to be standing after being hit with a Garda baton.

You don't see anyone being hit. Really? They must have had their batons set on twirl.

In this video, that you linked, you can clearly see the Gardai holding a cordon while on TWO occasions an object is thrown. Then a couple of seconds later the Gardai move forward and strike the ground in front of them.

'Two'. This constitutes a riot, and is then an excuse to hit anyone?

Also, seems to be glossed over but its clear to see BEER cans being thrown. Why the beer?

You get idiots drinking beer on all USI marches. You can see people in USI t-shirts (because that seems to matter to the media :rolleyes:) throwing beer. They're tools.

Given that the Gardai had beaten the crap out of the people in the department of finance at that point, including knocking one of them unconscious, they're lucky the protesters showed restraint.

Sierra Oscar

Its amusing the way the debate has totally shifted from the prospect of fee's being introduced to the actions of Gardai.

mloc

EduKate wrote: »

Given that the Gardai had beaten the crap out of the people in the department of finance at that point, including knocking one of them unconscious, they're lucky the protesters showed restraint.

No, the protesters are lucky they showed restraint. They broke the law, resisted being moved on, and assaulted Gardai. The Gardai responded by raising the level of opposing force appropriately.

If the protestors had continued to escalate their level of violence, I would imagine, quite rightly, they would have suffered a lot more injuries.

Let's recap here:

a) Marching orderly through an arranged protest route - legal

However:

a) Blocking a public thoroughfare - illegal
b) Trespassing in a government building - illegal
c) Throwing items at people - illegal (it's assault, and doubly illegal against a member of the Gardai)
d) Drinking in public - illegal
e) Resisting the orders of a member of the Gardai - illegal

I really don't get why people don't understand this. Protesters broke the law - they then resisted the efforts of Gardai to move them along. Attempts were made to do this with minimal force, but when that didn't work, they used more force. It's pretty black and white.

parker kent

EduKate wrote: »

Given that the Gardai had beaten the crap out of the people in the department of finance at that point, including knocking one of them unconscious, they're lucky the protesters showed restraint.

What exactly were they doing in the Department of Finance? They illegally entered a Government building. Consequences should be expected. Do you think I could go on a jolly around Congress in the USA and be politely escorted from the building if I resisted arrest?

Other people have pointed this out but it should be said before, they continually broke the law. Since there were only a few minor wounds on a few protesters, it seems like reasonable force was used by the Gardaí. The most serious injury from the march was the Guard with the broken nose. Everybody else had flesh wounds. Any cut on the head has a propensity to spurt out blood. That does not make it a serious injury.

EduKate wrote: »

Thats the least they should expect if they start knocking people unconscious, batoning students and trampling others on horses..]

As has been corroborated by other witnesses (and all legitimate media), the protesters acted first. The Guards did not start randomly hitting people. It was a reaction to other peoples actions.

EduKate

http://bit.ly/9yAcGU

Riamfada

EduKate wrote: »

http://bit.ly/9yAcGU

lol. And here I thought the SA was heavy handed. Nothing to the Garda Siochana.

mloc

EduKate wrote: »

http://bit.ly/9yAcGU

Baton charged? You obviously have never seen a real baton charge!