Cage Against The Machine

rcaz

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/sep/30/christmas-no1-facebook-campaign

4'33" for Christmas number one? I like it

What do yis think?

sesna

I wont be buying that $hite

rcaz

sesna wrote: »

I wont be buying that $hite

Why is it ****e?

lordgoat

heard about this a few months ago. Think it's a much better idea and song than any of the other gimmick campaigns.

Mindkiller

This is too deep for me, man.

RandolphEsq

Lol it is hilarious, it isn't a song, it's theatre. It can't get to number one

rcaz

RandolphEsq wrote: »

Lol it is hilarious, it isn't a song, it's theatre. It can't get to number one

The main problem for me is that 4'33" is a work of three movements, they'd have to decide upon a particular movement to release.

Are there rules against what can get to number one? If a recording of one of the movements from 4'33" is downloaded by more people than any other recording, why wouldn't it? I get that 4'33" is a whole idea, and that any recording of it is just one particular documentation or representation of that idea, that's the idea of aleatoric music. It'd be great if one particular documentation of aleatoric music got to number one though

RandolphEsq

sesna is right though, it is a pile of sh1te

rcaz

RandolphEsq wrote: »

sesna is right though, it is a pile of sh1te

Why do you think that?

RandolphEsq

El Pr0n wrote: »

Why do you think that?

Maybe I missed something as I skipped through the video but it was just silent all the way through. How can that be appreciated as a song in any way?

rcaz

RandolphEsq wrote: »

Maybe I missed something as I skipped through the video but it was just silent all the way through. How can that be appreciated as a song in any way?

It isn't a song. I dunno if some people call it a 'piece of music', I just think of it as a 'work' or an 'idea' or whatever. But the fact that musicians 'perform' it and people record those 'performances' means it can be packaged and sold, and bought and put in a chart.

It can be appreciated as an idea or an experiment - getting people to sit in a room with the preconception of being entertained by sound, and then letting that sound in question be whatever sound would normally exist in that room when nobody was around to listen.

strobe

It was pretentious sh1te when Cage did it, but at least it was somewhat original. Now it's just old crusty white recycled pretentious sh1te.

rcaz

strobe wrote: »

It was pretentious sh1te when Cage did it, but at least it was somewhat original. Now it's just old crusty white recycled pretentious sh1te.

I really don't get why so many people are so quick to call it pretentious. It isn't pretending to be anything. It's an idea and it does what it sets out to do.

lordgoat

El Pr0n wrote: »

I really don't get why so many people are so quick to call it pretentious. It isn't pretending to be anything. It's an idea and it does what it sets out to do.

Good luck with this thread! I do agree though. It is far from pretentious.

magentas

I like the idea behind it and admire what they're trying to do but TBH I won't be spending €15/20 on a blank CD

maybe I'm not cool & sophisticated enough to appreciate it?!

If I want peace and quiet I can get it at home...I'm not gonna PAY for it:D

JerryHandbag

My xmas no.1 has been and always shall be.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQG7dZUnNLs

Heisenberg.

This post has been deleted.

strobe

El Pr0n wrote: »

I really don't get why so many people are so quick to call it pretentious. It isn't pretending to be anything. It's an idea and it does what it sets out to do.

Ah, I miss spoke and spoke inaccurately. I didn't mean to say Cage was being pretentious. I was more implying that more often than not the people that champion and have championed 4:33 as a work of art were being pretentious. Not directed at you. But at the time and non-stop since, there have been people that talk an unending river of drivel about it. It has soured me somewhat on the original concept. My misgivings about the release of it to try and achieve the Christmas number one spot this year, is based around bringing a whole new generation of those 'people' out of the woodwork and the fact that I am highly suspicious that the people who came up with the original idea completely misunderstood the original premise and think they will be accomplishing some juvenile "fukk you" to the 'commercial' music industry by running with it.

The original concept was understandable and at a stretch admirable. A "hehehe lets do it again derp! We are so artistic/so revolutionary" re-do, just isn't my thing.

But if people are into it, go nutz.

Kold

This is actually one of Cage's more listenable pieces.

JerryHandbag

4 and a half minutes of silence as opposed to the latest Simon Cowell sponsored drivel, sounds like bliss to me. Perhaps a version by Weird Al Jankovic would be a better option?

RandolphEsq

Also, the irony of the people who want a different number one to the X Factor number one! The people who are against the X Factor number one are the same people that would profess that the charts are in no way an indicator of good music. Why worry about what gets to number one so!

rcaz

Scien wrote: »

It makes a mockery of the whole ideology of music.

That's not true at all. Apparently the thinking behind it is John Cage feeling like he can derive music from absolutely every sound he could possibly hear, and 4'33" is his attempt to get that point across to others. Pretty sound ideology I think.

Anyway, what is 'the whole ideology of music'? And are you suggesting there's only one ideology for music?

rcaz

strobe wrote: »

Ah, I miss spoke and spoke inaccurately. I didn't mean to say Cage was being pretentious. I was more implying that more often than not the people that champion and have championed 4:33 as a work of art were being pretentious. Not directed at you. But at the time and non-stop since, there have been people that talk an unending river of drivel about it. It has soured me somewhat on the original concept. My misgivings about the release of it to try and achieve the Christmas number one spot this year, is based around bringing a whole new generation of those 'people' out of the woodwork and the fact that I am highly suspicious that the people who came up with the original idea completely misunderstood the original premise and think they will be accomplishing some juvenile "fukk you" to the 'commercial' music industry by running with it.

The original concept was understandable and at a stretch admirable. A "hehehe lets do it again derp! We are so artistic/so revolutionary" re-do, just isn't my thing.

But if people are into it, go nutz.

Yeah I get you. It's hard to listen to anyone talk about something they love a lot without getting sick of it, especially when the thing they 'love' facilitates such elitism and arrogance. But I try my hardest not to let it take away from the music for me.

Anything like this is full of hypocrisy and poor arguments. I did think it would make a good discussion though (and so far I think I was right), the juxtaposition of such far-out artistic thinking with one of the most blaring examples (imo) of how much music can be bastardised.

Heisenberg.

This post has been deleted.

rcaz

Scien wrote: »

I completely disagree. There is a massive difference between noise and music. 4'33 is noise IMO.

Not at all but my ideology or interpretation of music is to evoke indescribable feelings and emotions through sound.
Music should be something that you can immerse yourself in & shut out the world. Ones fears, worries & anxieties should be completely non existent for the duration of a preferable piece of music.

That's the appeal of music for me and always will be. The Nietzsche quote in my eternal signature represents it better than I ever could.

So in summary, 4'33 is not music.

I'm sorta surprised that you're so narrow-minded about it. And I'm shocked you can take it upon yourself to declare something like "4'33" is not music". Music shouldn't be anything, and music can be whatever you want it to be. And you can't sit down and immerse yourself in the sound that just comes from your environment? There is ALWAYS sound being made everywhere, why do we have to replace it with other, planned and produced sound?

As for 4'33" being noise, sorta, but I think the point is that that noise then becomes music when it's put in the context of 4'33". I guess a lot of people would argue 'noise isn't music', but why does that have to be? What about Merzbow?

Heisenberg.

This post has been deleted.

rcaz

Scien wrote: »

I don't think I'm being narrowing minded at all. What Cage did with this 'piece' is truly remarkable and I commend him for it but it does not appeal to me in the slightest.

Then I misunderstood on that bit. Apologies.

Scien wrote: »

I'm thankfully in employment which grants me the liberty to have headphones on 8hrs a day. I wouldn't ever, not for a second, think about wasting 4.5 minutes listening to this. Once was enough (when I came across it in the Classical forum about 2 yrs ago)

Well I don't think the intention of 4'33" was ever to get people to listen to it in work. Anyway, a recording of it is undermining the idea of it. The Facebook campaign and all that is obviously in jest, and though it'd be a cool situation to have a recording of this in a chart, it's got no significance to the art or idea of it. When you're working, you're not listening to music at all, you're hearing it (see the quote in my signature). You can't hear 4'33", you have to listen for it.

Scien wrote: »

There's far too much musical exploration to be done rather than listening to this, (oh he's gonna do it).... tripe.

So there's a 'right' way to do your musical exploration and a 'wrong' one?

loyatemu

the "Surfin' Bird for No 1" campaign sounds better - thats a bloody great song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZThquH5t0ow

smokedeels

I think we should skip subverting the music industry this Christmas, aside from the arty-bullsh!t that surrounds it I always thought 4"33 was a nice idea, it doesn't deserve to be subjected to ridicule by the likes of Murdoch Live and Simon Cowell.

Let them have the charts and the sane amongst us can go back to ignoring them.

The RATM thing last year was hijacked and backed by the mainstream media and made money for Sony, the point - if there was one - was lost.

lordgoat

Scien wrote: »

I completely disagree. There is a massive difference between noise and music. 4'33 is noise IMO.



Not at all but my ideology or interpretation of music is to evoke indescribable feelings and emotions through sound.
Music should be something that you can immerse yourself in & shut out the world. Ones fears, worries & anxieties should be completely non existent for the duration of a preferable piece of music.

That's the appeal of music for me and always will be. The Nietzsche quote in my eternal signature represents it better than I ever could.

So in summary, 4'33 is not music.

Pfff i think most of what Sonic Youth do is noise. Doesn't mean i don't consider it music.

Also the bit bolded can actually be experienced during 4'33.

So in summary, 4'33 is music.

RandolphEsq

loyatemu wrote: »

the "Surfin' Bird for No 1" campaign sounds better - thats a bloody great song:

Especially when it's played to that WW1 video