Have public sector workers paid their full share of the cutbacks?

doc_17

No reforms have been put in place. No work practices changed. That was the essence of the deal and if none of that has happened then how could there be savings?

Plus Michael Noonan admitted he was told by dept finance officials that not one penny was saved because of this deal so far. He said that at about 5.10 today on the last word.

ParkRunner

doc_17 wrote: »

No reforms have been put in place. No work practices changed. That was the essence of the deal and if none of that has happened then how could there be savings?

Do you work in the public service out of interest? If not, how do you know what has or has not changed? The public service has changed dramatically in my opinion in the last 18 months. Spending on anything which isn't absolutely essential has been scrapped, targets must be achieved and any staff who leave aren't replaced from my own experience.

johnnyskeleton

Godge wrote: »

If the other 90% of GDP contributed at an equivalent level there would be a saving/revenue increase of €25.2 bn., more than enough to eliminate the deficit.

Look, public sector workers aren't the bad guys - it's the government's gross financial mismanagment of the economy that has led to this situation. Just because public sector wages can be cut to make savings, doesn't mean that the rest of the economy can be taxed to increase revenue. Our GDP is skewed by large multinationals coming here because of low rates of tax. If we asked them to pay the same level of tax as public sector workers (or even just asked them to take a 10% "hit" just like public sector workers) they would simply leave. That would reduce our GDP and only compound our problems.

The reality that you must accept is that the government is like a household; it has income and expenditure. If it wants a better lifestyle it needs to earn more. If it can't earn more it needs to reduce its spending. What you are saying is that it is unfair because a household that has gone from a high income to a low income has reduced its spending by 10%, and if it magically increased its income by the same % its money woes would dissappear. But the problem is that this household has run out of magic beans.

If you can provide some constructive, real world ways of increasing the income from the private sector I'd love to hear them.

rumour

deise blue wrote: »

Everyone is going to be hammered in the budget , at least this time it won't only hit PS workers and Social Welfare recipients .

And that makes it all better!!!

Do you not get this, tax cannot cure the problem. There will just be less money for the public sector period.

A rudimentary simplistic example of what is about to happen and bear in mind that if it doesn't you face 20bn of very early cuts next year. Sorry about this but this is just the way it will work.

20bn overspend 2009
22bn overspend 2010
14.5bn Projected overspend 2011 (cut 7.5bn)
7bn Projected overspend 2012 (cut 7.5bn)
0bn Projected overspend 2013 (cut 7bn)
2014 projected clean sheet.

Oh and all this depends on the private sector growing at 2% approx.,consider if you up taxes and force the private sector who have already taken pay cuts and up to 230,000 redundancies to dig deeper will this promote growth. If that doesn't happen it only gets worse again for the public sector.

So and I'm sorry to say this if you are in the public sector this is what awaits you everthing twice as bad as the last 18months for three years.

Unless the private sector perform a miracle this is the scenario. Do not be fooled by the posturing of Joan Burton and the Unions saying it we should do it over a longer period of time and distracting you with soundbites. Our government has already asked the ECB for bailout funds the answer was no,in addition they hae said it has to be a credible plan meaning all political parties have to get on board.

There is no more money and no one to help us.

TheRealPONeil

doc_17 wrote: »

No reforms have been put in place. No work practices changed. That was the essence of the deal and if none of that has happened then how could there be savings?

Was there not a missive from the government slipped into page three or so of the Irish Times about four weeks ago announcing the 10,000 reduction in staff numbers in the public service in 09/10 ??

doc_17 wrote: »

Plus Michael Noonan admitted he was told by dept finance officials that not one penny was saved because of this deal so far. He said that at about 5.10 today on the last word.

And I'll say it again, the political naivety of some commentators here is alarming - unless of course you are possible Michael Noonan, or even Enda, swaying public opinion via boards.ie !

Anyone can say anything on the last word, or any other radio show for that matter.

TheRealPONeil

rumour wrote: »

blah blah ....
There is no more money and no one to help us.

Padraig McManus was paid more than €750,000 last year, making him the highest-paid boss of a state-owned company.

And that's a simple Google search 15 minutes after your post?

Head The Wall

deise blue wrote: »

You will excuse me if I put my faith in the architects of the Croke Park agreement rather than your goodself ? - I ain 't that bleeding gullible !

Just because it is obviously your fervent wish that the CP agreement is abandoned does not mean that this will happen as your conclusion seems to be based on supposition rather than current political and union comment.

I look forward to resuming our discussion after the deal concludes in 2014.

It'll be sooner than you think and it's not my wish that it doesn't last but the simple reality is the clause is going to be invoked.

rumour

TheRealPONeil wrote: »

Padraig McManus was paid more than €750,000 last year, making him the highest-paid boss of a state-owned company.

And that's a simple Google search 15 minutes after your post?

Look I don't care how the money is divvied up in the public sector either way there's just 7bn less next year.

Put it another way you need to find another 10,000 guys on those wages, confiscate them and make them work for nothing. That'll fix next years problems. Then you need to find 10,000 each year for another two years.

If you don't have all of them signed up to this before December well the public sector are broke in March.

TheRealPONeil

rumour wrote: »

Look I don't care how the money is divvied up in the public sector ...

Eh, ESB are practically a "private" company

rumour wrote: »

If you don't have all of them signed up to this before December well the public sector are broke in March.

I think you're missing the basic point here ...

The "government" are looking to reduce their outgoings on wages (this includes social welfare payments - you're on the payroll if you're on any social payments ) ...
Their "employees" (i.e. those receiving payment from the "government" ) spend their income in the Irish economy ...

Operators in the Irish economy don't reduce their costs ...
Insurance costs have not reduced ...
Utility costs have not reduced ...
Your dental costs have not reduced ...
Your medical costs are increasing ...
Your cost of travelling around this country has not reduced ...
If you need certification for anything your "professional" fees have not been reduced ...
If you need legal representation for anything ... no reduction
Your fuel costs are not reduced ...
travel 40 minutes North and you'll find your food bill is extortionate ...
Your education costs have not reduced ...
Your telecoms costs have not reduced ...

doc_17

EF wrote: »

Do you work in the public service out of interest? If not, how do you know what has or has not changed? The public service has changed dramatically in my opinion in the last 18 months. Spending on anything which isn't absolutely essential has been scrapped, targets must be achieved and any staff who leave aren't replaced from my own experience.

Yes I'm a teacher. My own union the TUI has not signed to CPA. I'm not saying that we're all drastically overpaid and rolling about in pools of money but the simple fact is we spend approx 18b on PS Pay & Pensions. If we limit the cutbacks to other things then it will be impossible to achieve. If this happens the IMF/EU will come in and do worse, a lot worse.

No staff have been reassigned (except the odd teacher in a VEC) and the 10,000 staff reduction is natural wastage. I have no problem with majority of PS workers but there are some, (and they are in every walk of life) who have a job but little to do. The Dept of Health for example.

I know people have been hit hard. So have I. but we need to sort this out.

And no I'm not Micahel noonan nor Enda Himself!!!!

femur61

ardmacha wrote: »

Ah sure we can all go to Germany.
.

Not a bad idea because they are already funding the running of the country.

oldyouth

Those saying that reforms from the Croke Park agreement are in place seem to be quoting cutbacks in spending and staff not being replaced. My understanding of reform was that there should be better work practices put in place, giving a more efficient service from the resources already there. I haven't seen one bit of evidence on that. Most teachers and civil servants have not changed the way they have always done things.

Gumbo

oldyouth wrote: »

Those saying that reforms from the Croke Park agreement are in place seem to be quoting cutbacks in spending and staff not being replaced. My understanding of reform was that there should be better work practices put in place, giving a more efficient service from the resources already there. I haven't seen one bit of evidence on that. Most teachers and civil servants have not changed the way they have always done things.

im in a Local Authorithy and we have already started to change. People have already been redeployed to different departments and teams have been split up in order to speed up the delivery of certain projects - Regeneration plans, local area plans ACA's etc

so to say not one thing has changed is a lie as you have no idea whats been changed on the inside.

Nijmegen

kceire wrote: »

im in a Local Authorithy and we have already started to change. People have already been redeployed to different departments and teams have been split up in order to speed up the delivery of certain projects - Regeneration plans, local area plans ACA's etc

so to say not one thing has changed is a lie as you have no idea whats been changed on the inside.

I think the taxpayer is a bit miffed that we're paying for this process of 'improvement' twice already.

You do remember the premise of benchmarking?

bamboozle

kceire wrote: »

im in a Local Authorithy and we have already started to change. People have already been redeployed to different departments and teams have been split up in order to speed up the delivery of certain projects - Regeneration plans, local area plans ACA's etc

so to say not one thing has changed is a lie as you have no idea whats been changed on the inside.

until i see published documentation form each govt dept & quango precisely detailing how costs will be cut, where deployments will be made, how inefficiencies will be ironed out and ultimately how much saving will be made as a result i wont be jumping for joy when i hear of a local authority that has started to change, a small step in the right direction but what we need now is giant leaps.

deise blue

rumour wrote: »

And that makes it all better!!!

Do you not get this, tax cannot cure the problem. There will just be less money for the public sector period.

A rudimentary simplistic example of what is about to happen and bear in mind that if it doesn't you face 20bn of very early cuts next year. Sorry about this but this is just the way it will work.

20bn overspend 2009
22bn overspend 2010
14.5bn Projected overspend 2011 (cut 7.5bn)
7bn Projected overspend 2012 (cut 7.5bn)
0bn Projected overspend 2013 (cut 7bn)
2014 projected clean sheet.

Oh and all this depends on the private sector growing at 2% approx.,consider if you up taxes and force the private sector who have already taken pay cuts and up to 230,000 redundancies to dig deeper will this promote growth. If that doesn't happen it only gets worse again for the public sector.

So and I'm sorry to say this if you are in the public sector this is what awaits you everthing twice as bad as the last 18months for three years.

Unless the private sector perform a miracle this is the scenario. Do not be fooled by the posturing of Joan Burton and the Unions saying it we should do it over a longer period of time and distracting you with soundbites. Our government has already asked the ECB for bailout funds the answer was no,in addition they hae said it has to be a credible plan meaning all political parties have to get on board.

There is no more money and no one to help us.

Of course it matters but it's inevitable that the grindingly slow process of reforming our low tax system to match EC norms is going to start with the forthcoming budget and the 4 year fiscal plan.

In all probability we will all see the advent of water charges and property tax and hopefully wealth tax over this 4 year period and an a dilution of pension tax relief and tax loopholes.

As you say we cannot tax our way out of a recession but neither can we cut our way out ( as already clearly demonstrated ) but the reality is that we have no options particularly if we need to retain the industrial relations stability guaranteed by the CP agreement .

There is one glaring error in your budget projections to 2014 , you refer to " a projected clean sheet " for 2014 , that is not what is being asked of us - the intention is to reduce our budget deficit to 3% of GDP ( approx 5.5 billion ) , furthermore the Irish Times states today that the Department of Finance are targeting a figure of 4.5 billion in the forthcoming budget which would seem to tie in with the above scenario.

There is also the political difficulties of hitting such a large voting demographic again and FF are very aware of this , also if Labour are the largest political party ( or failing that form a large rump of any coalition ) after the next election then they will not target PS pay.

I really think that all other options will be explored before PS pay cuts are back on the agenda.

ei.sdraob

according to CSO public sector average earnings in q2 2010 are 904 euro (thats compared to private sector of 613 euro )
last time the public sector wages (ex healtcare since CSO for some reason excluded this lot back then) where 904 euro was q2 2007 :rolleyes:
the peak of the earnings where 946 euro in q2 2009 :rolleyes:
also the % of jobs shed from the public service is nowhere near what the private sector %

so based on the CSO stats
no the public sector has nowhere near paid their full share yet
we are only back 2007 levels and why in gods name where earnings increasing all the way into 2009 :mad:

i call for the politicians to scrap the Croke Park and sharpen a machete

daltonm

ei.sdraob wrote: »

according to CSO public sector average earnings in q2 2010 are 904 euro (thats compared to private sector of 613 euro )

last time the public sector wages (ex healtcare since CSO for some reason excluded this lot back then) where 904 euro was q2 2007 :rolleyes:

the peak of the earnings where 946 euro in q2 2009 :rolleyes:


also the % of jobs shed from the public service is nowhere near what the private sector %

so based on the CSO stats

no the public sector has nowhere near paid their full share yet

we are only back 2007 levels and why in gods name where earnings increasing all the way into 2009 :mad:

i call for the politicians to scrap the Croke Park and sharpen a machete

You are absolutely right regarding the pay levels. But this year I think the focus will be on higher taxes and in the new year, with a new government the Croke Park deal will be ripped up and within weeks of the election pay cuts in the PS will be brought in - see the UK for example. The lib dems made a whole bunch of election promises that they simply could not keep.

ZYX

ei.sdraob wrote: »

according to CSO public sector average earnings in q2 2010 are 904 euro (thats compared to private sector of 613 euro )
last time the public sector wages (ex healtcare since CSO for some reason excluded this lot back then) where 904 euro was q2 2007 :rolleyes:
the peak of the earnings where 946 euro in q2 2009 :rolleyes:
also the % of jobs shed from the public service is nowhere near what the private sector %

so based on the CSO stats
no the public sector has nowhere near paid their full share yet
we are only back 2007 levels and why in gods name where earnings increasing all the way into 2009 :mad:

i call for the politicians to scrap the Croke Park and sharpen a machete

It depends how you read the report.

It also says in the last 12 months public sector hourly pay has decreased 4.2% while in the same period private sector pay has gone up 0.1%. Average weekly earnings in public sector are down 4.4% in last 12 months and only 0.7% in private sector.

deise blue

daltonm wrote: »

You are absolutely right regarding the pay levels. But this year I think the focus will be on higher taxes and in the new year, with a new government the Croke Park deal will be ripped up and within weeks of the election pay cuts in the PS will be brought in - see the UK for example. The lib dems made a whole bunch of election promises that they simply could not keep.

See the UK for example - absolutely no pay cuts have been imposed on UK Public Sector workers.

It should also be remembered that the 500,000 job cuts will result from natural wastage.

ei.sdraob

ZYX wrote: »

It depends how you read the report.

It also says in the last 12 months public sector hourly pay has decreased 4.2% while in the same period private sector pay has gone up 0.1%. Average weekly earnings in public sector are down 4.4% in last 12 months and only 0.7% in private sector.

Go back 3+ years in these reports
the private sector has a huge adjustment in wages, hours early in the crisis with hundreds of thousands of people loosing jobs altogether (mostly in construction but recently in sectors such as transport)
while in the protected and cushioned public sector, wages and number employed continued to rise all the way into 2009 and only now dropping but still at 2007 bubble levels

incredible!


edit: keep in mind that earlier CSO reports exclude the healthcare sector while the newest ones includes semi states and some private employees (see the notes in latest report linked above), i still dont understand why CSO are incapable of producing like for like stats without so many caveats, someone in there is trying hard to fudge stats to make things appear a certain way....

ParkRunner

ei.sdraob wrote: »

i still dont understand why CSO are incapable of producing like for like stats without so many caveats

Probably a lack of resources

ei.sdraob

EF wrote: »

Probably a lack of resources

ahem

45-60 million budget !!!!

in this dept alone, that could fund about 50 medium sized companies about million each to do the job and employ people (lets say dozen each on very nice wages)

ParkRunner

ei.sdraob wrote: »

ahem

45-60 million budget !!!!

in this dept alone, that could fund about 50 medium sized companies about million each to do the job and employ people (lets say dozen each on very nice wages)

The costs would only increase with 50 different companies and employing only a dozen each would be 600 staff, whereas the cso manages to employ 743 staff at a cost of 38m!

The CSO has 743 full time equivalent staff. Of these 464 staff are based in Cork; 137 staff, in Ardee Road; 58 staff, in Swords; and 84 staff work as field officers.

http://www.orp.ie/files/English_Version/ORP_Report_2,_Chapter_4_CSO_pdf.pdf

daltonm

deise blue wrote: »

See the UK for example - absolutely no pay cuts have been imposed on UK Public Sector workers.

It should also be remembered that the 500,000 job cuts will result from natural wastage.

I never said that they did. What I said was "The lib dems made a whole bunch of election promises that they simply could not keep."

Also - while "some" of the jobs will be lost through natural wastage,George Osbourne said "490,000 jobs would go in the public sector during the rest of the parliament, but said redundancies were "unavoidable when the country has run out of money".

ei.sdraob

EF wrote: »

The costs would only increase with 50 different companies and employing only a dozen each would be 600 staff, whereas the cso manages to employ 743 staff at a cost of 38m!



http://www.orp.ie/files/English_Version/ORP_Report_2,_Chapter_4_CSO_pdf.pdf

that was just an example could have 2 companies so there is some competition and one verifies the other

lets say 1000 people @ 30K a year average = thats only 30million in wages
leaving another 30 million for other expenses such as database servers, paying contractors for data input etc, hardware/servers etc

things like census could be done over the internet with people who have no connections visited by collector, as is being done in other countries now


the CSO is far from an efficient organisation and the quality of some of their publications and data exposed has alot to be desired

ParkRunner

ei.sdraob wrote: »

things like census could be done over the internet with people who have no connections visited by collector, as is being done in other countries now

Participation in an internet census would probably be a lot lower than the current system but that is a separate debate. In the future most public services will be online based I expect and a lot less staff will be required. We are slowly moving that way but the opportunity we had in the last decade was missed

ei.sdraob

EF wrote: »

Participation in an internet census would probably be a lot lower than the current system but that is a separate debate.

Not if you receive a large bill from revenue which is written of on completion of census.

As I said other countries are moving towards this

the public sector has a terrible history of implementing IT systems to help make the system better, need i mention PPARS...

deise blue

daltonm wrote: »

You are absolutely right regarding the pay levels. But this year I think the focus will be on higher taxes and in the new year, with a new government the Croke Park deal will be ripped up and within weeks of the election pay cuts in the PS will be brought in - see the UK for example. The lib dems made a whole bunch of election promises that they simply could not keep.

This is what you said - " within weeks of the election pay cuts in the PS will be brought in - see the UK for example. "

Pretty clear I would have thought , I say again no pay cuts have been imposed on UK PS workers and I further reiterate that the vast majority of job losses will be lost due to natural wastage over a 5 year period.

rumour

deise blue wrote: »

I really think that all other options will be explored before PS pay cuts are back on the agenda.

I'm pretty sure they will explore all options I don't think anybody would wish this situation on anyone. I know you pointed out the error of under 3% of GDP. I did qualify with it being simplistic. However and we have to set aside the banks just for a minute.

20bn borrow 2009
22bn borrow 2010
14.5bn borrow 2011
7bn borrow 2012
0 borrowing 2013
Clean sheet 2014.

By 2014 we will have borrowed 62bn. The interest now is approx 6% lets assume 4% per annum. Thats 2.5bn interest repayments not included in the borrowing figure above, we have to find that from somewhere. You then need to add the interest from the bank bailout. Now Lenihan has done a deal to pay this off over 25yrs but its still costly. Anyway net result is pretty much as I have posted. Is it any more shocking if its 7.5bn or 6.5bn??

To say there are political difficulties is an understatement. However the people we want to borrow from do not really care about that.

The net result is that the cuts will happen. Consider the reactions of the Unions lets do it over a longer period, they are not saying anymore that they do not need to happen.
Similarly Joan Bruton does not say they do not need to happen instead she wants everyone to talk about the bank bailout. Whilst I detest the bank bailout its the current account deficit that is the immediate problem.

The only way out of this is not the public sector but increased revenues from our private sector. Taxing everyone may appear fair but it has all the potential to shoot us in the foot. Economic forecasts still predict growth which is by no means certain, if that doesn't transpire the situation only gets worse.

ParkRunner

ei.sdraob wrote: »

the public sector has a terrible history of implementing IT systems to help make the system better, need i mention PPARS...

Five decades of empirical research will tell you there’s no difference between public and private sector when it comes to the outcome of IT investment according to Joe McDonagh, a senior business lecturer at Trinity College Dublin who advises not only the Irish Government on change management but also the governments in Northern Ireland and the UK, as well as the UN and the US Department of Homeland Security.

The only difference is private companies can easily hide and absorb the cost of IT failures but public bodies have to be publicly accountable.

It is no excuse for failure of an IT project but you don't hear about the private sector IT failures.

http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/counting-the-cost-of-it-failure-1297451.html

rumour

TheRealPONeil wrote: »

Eh, ESB are practically a "private" company...

Their owners hence employers are the state. To the vast majority of people in Ireland they are the equivalent of state protected jobs. And yes that priviliged protection should go. That is within the control of the government. Privatise it that guys salary woould drop overnight. But watch the Unions mobilise to protect 'the ordinary working class man' of privilige.

TheRealPONeil wrote: »

I think you're missing the basic point here ...

The "government" are looking to reduce their outgoings on wages (this includes social welfare payments - you're on the payroll if you're on any social payments ) ...
Their "employees" (i.e. those receiving payment from the "government" ) spend their income in the Irish economy ...

Operators in the Irish economy don't reduce their costs ...
Insurance costs have not reduced ...
Utility costs have not reduced ...
Your dental costs have not reduced ...
Your medical costs are increasing ...
Your cost of travelling around this country has not reduced ...
If you need certification for anything your "professional" fees have not been reduced ...
If you need legal representation for anything ... no reduction
Your fuel costs are not reduced ...
travel 40 minutes North and you'll find your food bill is extortionate ...
Your education costs have not reduced ...
Your telecoms costs have not reduced ...

Frankly I couln't agree more this is the circumstance for 1.8 million private sector workers also. However filling a leaking bucket continiously is the action of an idiot, what happens when the source of the water runs out?
This is more or less where we find ourselves the source of the money has run out. Time for rations.

I think if the money is pulled out of the economy all of the above will drop. If there is less money they have few options.

Unfortunately we think our economy is bigger than it is because it is built on borrowed money. The private sector has taken a real hit, that does not mean anyone wants the public sector to take a hit but when they are dependent on borrowings to such an extent their fate is in the hands of who they are borrowing from.

And believe it or not the private sector (with the exceptions of semi-state monopolies as you have quite rightly identified) have very little to give.

sarumite

deise blue wrote: »

See the UK for example - absolutely no pay cuts have been imposed on UK Public Sector workers.

It should also be remembered that the 500,000 job cuts will result from natural wastage.

The UK government doesn't need to directly impose pay cuts to the UK public sector. I worked for the HPA through their "Agenda for Change" which was an internal audit of pay and conditions. There were some people who's pay was cut (I know of one person who say their pay cut from £35k to £28k over a 5 year period) through the AFC process. Assuming just because the government doesn't directly cut pay that the departments themselves won't cut pay is an assumption too far.

Currently the MOD is going through their own internal audit. I have friends who work within the MOD civilian population....they have been told that there more than likely will be forced redundancies.

ei.sdraob

EF wrote: »

Five decades of empirical research will tell you there’s no difference between public and private sector when it comes to the outcome of IT investment according to Joe McDonagh, a senior business lecturer at Trinity College Dublin who advises not only the Irish Government on change management but also the governments in Northern Ireland and the UK, as well as the UN and the US Department of Homeland Security.

The only difference is private companies can easily hide and absorb the cost of IT failures but public bodies have to be publicly accountable.

It is no excuse for failure of an IT project but you don't hear about the private sector IT failures.

http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/counting-the-cost-of-it-failure-1297451.html

Yes there are failures in the private sector but too many failures and the company goes under and people loose jobs,
none of that in the public/civil sector, not a single person has been sacked ever for incompetence here or corruption for that matter :rolleyes:

the IT failures and overuns in the public sector are spectacular with no heads rolling


anyways get back on subject you, CSO stats clearly show that public earnings were growing all the way into 2009 but this time most of the losses and cuts in the private sector have been out of the way.
only in the last year has this trend reversed "somewhat" but we are still at 2007 levels of pay which is well above the private sector, and of course the cost of living and house prices are now at 2004 and earlier levels with deflation continuing in most sectors (except the ones propped up by the public sector).

why not we benchmark the public sector downward, its only "fair" no? hell even 850 euro average wage will only bring it down to 2005 level which is still waaaay above the private earnings

next you be telling us there is no difference in between public and private when it comes to adaptability to changed circumstances despite the evidence presented :rolleyes:

ParkRunner

I guess the best way to look at it is the total benefit to the exchequer of further cuts. The pension levy will contribute about 850 million this year which was an average of about 4% net cut.

The paycuts in the last budget reduced expenditure by about 1.3bn which was about 7.5% cut, which both together impacted vat and despite the cuts the cost of borrowing went up.

With numbers employed falling and any further cuts as always reducing the net benefit to the exchequer taking into account income tax, income levy, pension levy, pension contributions etc. further paycuts will help no doubt, but on their own are not the solution.

Gumbo

ei.sdraob wrote: »

the cost of living and house prices are now at 2004 and earlier levels

house prices may be at 2004 levels, but what about the people that are still paying mortgages on boom prices, both public and private?

cost of living hasnt gone down too much imo :
how many people can honestly say their house insurance has dropped, their car insurance has dropped, motor tax is stall the same, petrol/diesel has gone up.

TV licence still the same.

ei.sdraob

kceire wrote: »

house prices may be at 2004 levels, but what about the people that are still paying mortgages on boom prices, both public and private?

cost of living hasnt gone down too much imo :
how many people can honestly say their house insurance has dropped, their car insurance has dropped, motor tax is stall the same, petrol/diesel has gone up.
.

Ah so now the people who didnt get involved in boom have to subsidise the public workers that have :rolleyes:

Cry me a river, oh and "they" dont have to worry about being fired unlike their private sector counterparts a large % of whom have lost jobs.

oh renting went down by quite a bit too....

kceire wrote: »

TV licence still the same.

its a tax (and a silly one at that!), taxes not going down anytime soon

in the case of tv license to pay overpaid RTE staff, the irony!

Paulzx

ei.sdraob wrote: »

none of that in the public/civil sector, not a single person has been sacked ever for incompetence here or corruption for that matter :rolleyes:

:

Completely inaccurate statement. Just because you don't hear about it doesn't mean it has never happened. Do you expect a story in the paper every time a roadsweeper or clerical officer is sacked? Maybe it might satisfy some of the irrational bloodlust that's expressed on these forums.

I know of situations were PS workers were sacked. They were sacked for not doing their jobs properly after due process was applied. I think that comes under your "incompetance" arguement.

As for "corruption" I'll leave that to the private sector bankers, developers etc along with our esteemed politicians

ei.sdraob

Paulzx wrote: »

Completely inaccurate statement. Just because you don't hear about it doesn't mean it has never happened. Do you expect a story in the paper every time a roadsweeper or clerical officer is sacked? Maybe it might satisfy some of the irrational bloodlust that's expressed on these forums.

I know of situations were PS workers were sacked. They were sacked for not doing their jobs properly after due process was applied. I think that comes under your "incompetance" arguement.

As for "corruption" I'll leave that to the private sector bankers, developers etc along with our esteemed politicians

Anyone loose their job over:
PPARS?
Evoting?
Not regulating the Banks?


please entertain us! :mad:

ardmacha

Ah so now the people who didnt get involved in boom have to subsidise the public workers that have

This is fair comment. But the flip side of this is that people who did cause the boom should not be allowed use this as an excuse not to pay taxes because they have a big mortgage or whatever the excuse de jour. There is tremendous hypocrisy on this forum.

Paulzx

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Anyone loose their job over:
PPARS?
Evoting?
Not regulating the Banks?


please entertain us! :mad:

You made a statement saying that nobody has been sacked"ever" in the public service. This is patently bol%ix.

I refuted your stupid statement.

Now it is specifically ppars, evoting, bank regultion. Make up your mind.

And yes heads should have rolled on those projects

ei.sdraob

ardmacha wrote: »

This is fair comment. But the flip side of this is that people who did cause the boom should not be allowed use this as an excuse not to pay taxes because they have a big mortgage or whatever the excuse de jour. There is tremendous hypocrisy on this forum.

You know well i am very vocal about dumping others parties (the banks ahem) **** on the taxpayer

Paulzx wrote: »

You made a statement saying that nobody has been sacked"ever" in the public service. This is patently bol%ix.

I refuted your stupid statement.

Now it is specifically ppars, evoting, bank regultion. Make up your mind.

And yes heads should have rolled on those projects

you know exactly what I mean, its extremely hard to fire anyone from public/civil/semistate areas no matter how much they ****ed up and responsibility lands on their feet

Paulzx

ei.sdraob wrote: »

its extremely hard to fire anyone from public/civil/semistate area

Different statement altogehther. I can't read your mind. I can only go by what you type.;)

hobochris

To answer the question in the title; not until the public service can be funded annually without a deficit.

The money to pay lavish wages to overpriced workers is not there in the Irish open economy..

And the notion of taxes hikes to maintain the status que of the public sector is not one that the workers outside the public sector will tolerate for too long.

ardmacha

To answer the question in the title; not until the public service can be funded annually without a deficit.

But the economy goes up and down and the demand for public services doesn't, so this needs to be measured on a long term basis. The reason why we are in a such a mess is that we didn't have such a long term model.

ei.sdraob

Interesting comment on PrimeTime last night

If we had same level of cuts here as in UK now; 20,000 public sector workers will go. Plenty of quangoes could be closed to here.

ZYX

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Interesting comment on PrimeTime last night

If we had same level of cuts here as in UK now; 20,000 public sector workers will go. Plenty of quangoes could be closed to here.

Losses in Ireland will be well above 20,000. In 2009 alone there were 8,900 losses in public sector.

Count Dooku

ardmacha wrote: »

But the economy goes up and down and the demand for public services doesn't, so this needs to be measured on a long term basis.

Not everything in public services is critical, a lot of fat and quango's can go and nobody will see it

ardmacha wrote: »

The reason why we are in a such a mess is that we didn't have such a long term model.

Why?
FF made from central bank CB itself and Financial Regulator, doubled number of staff and as result we have what we have
More staff doesn't mean better services
We don't have good management in public services and it doesn't make much sense to keep so much people on so high pay in public services, because even if it will great staff(but usually not) their effort will lost due bad management

madred006

Well not sure about wheather they have or have not paid teir fair share but .
Untill we have accountability in the higher echelons of the civil service and other goverment agencies the bill will get higher and no amount of taxation will remedy the situation :
eg:1--- there is a prison service uniform store in santry which is full to capacity of uniforms overcoats, shoes ,tunics, trousers,etc etc.only problem is they are obselete because a new uniform was introduced 3 years ago if this happened in private sector heads would roll .
eg:2---was in hospital a while ago and watched a cleaner spend 2 hours clean a hand sanitizer from 12.30 -2.30 during this time she watched the news home and away and something else a nurse asked if she was finished she said yes but was going to dinner and would be back at 3.20.
Surely a little bit of accountability would not go amiss AND SORRY FOR THE RANT :eek:

Welease

ZYX wrote: »

Losses in Ireland will be well above 20,000. In 2009 alone there were 8,900 losses in public sector.

Assuming you are not talking attrition here and are including the non renewal of contracts..

Are they technically public sector workers though? Or private sector workers contracted to the public sector..

The CP agreement secured the continued employment of PS workers..