Are Ferguson and Man Utd. done?

Sean Bateman

Nyla Plain Geese wrote: »

I dont need to,experience and common sense tells me its utter bull****.Dont let that stop your campaign though.

Eh, what campaign?

According to Forbes magazine, United are the most valuable sports club in the world and are valued at $1.87 billion. And that's before the club's operating profit grew to over £100 million.

http://theoriginalwinger.com/2010-01-14-forbes-most-valuble-teams-in-sports-manchester-united-1

UnitedIrishman

recylingbin wrote: »

Ferguson is a cheque book manager.
A man who has consistently broken the british transfer record.
Now that he has no chequebook, he's in big trouble.

Believe it or not, only one year of the 90's were we the biggest spender in any season. Think it was 1998 (Stam and Yorke).

I could get figures, but to be honest I can't be arsed wasting time on you.

--amadeus--

Sean Bateman wrote: »

Of course we're not finished.

We've a strong squad.

The club's worth £1.5 billion and it has debts of £700 million. That isn't problematic.

We've the best manager that the game has ever seen.

Liverpool's problems are far more serious.

There is a detailed thread comparing LFC and MUFC here but in a nutshell you are flat out wrong on the MU financial situation.

I'd love to see exactly where you got a value of £1.5 billion from and in particular how that value is calculated because it is simply staggering, tbh. But leaving that aside for a minute and pretending it's true you have said that having a €300,000 house and a €150,000 mortgage is no problem.

It is if you can't afford the mortgage repayments because you're only earning €200 a week.

You are confusing asset wealth with liquidity. If you have a mortgage on a home and you cannot afford the repayments what happens? The bank repossess the house. It makes no difference how much the house is worth or how big the mortgage was you're still homeless. If your salary won't cover your mortgage you resort to selling your possessions to cover the shortfall. For an individual that might be a car or a laptop. For a football club it's players. Same principle applies - no revenue (salary) then no debt payments so cash has to be raised from elsewhere.

The only difference positive equity makes is that you can choose to sell the house and pocket the cash. In reality (as I said in the other thread) I believe MUFC are in serious negative equity.

[edit] I see you are quoting Forbes as valuing MU at $1.87billion. The same article valued LFC at £555million or so and look how that panned out...

Sean Bateman

--amadeus-- wrote: »

There is a detailed thread comparing LFC and MUFC here but in a nutshell you are flat out wrong on the MU financial situation.

I'd love to see exactly where you got a value of £1.5 billion from and in particular how that value is calculated because it is simply staggering, tbh. But leaving that aside for a minute and pretending it's true you have said that having a €300,000 house and a €150,000 mortgage is no problem.

It is if you can't afford the mortgage repayments because you're only earning €200 a week.

You are confusing asset wealth with liquidity. If you have a mortgage on a home and you cannot afford the repayments what happens? The bank repossess the house. It makes no difference how much the house is worth or how big the mortgage was you're still homeless. If your salary won't cover your mortgage you resort to selling your possessions to cover the shortfall. For an individual that might be a car or a laptop. For a football club it's players. Same principle applies - no revenue (salary) then no debt payments so cash has to be raised from elsewhere.

The only difference positive equity makes is that you can choose to sell the house and pocket the cash. In reality (as I said in the other thread) I believe MUFC are in serious negative equity.

United can comfortably meet the interest repayments and there is no basis whatsoever for your claim that "United are in serious negative equity". United's interest bill is £40 million a year and they're currently throwing off profits of £80 million a year. The club is worth somewhere in the £1.2-1.5 billion range. That's common knowledge.

EDIT - You're comparing apples and pears. Liverpool's "real" value probably is around that but the recent sale was a distressed sale. They couldn't pay the mortgage.

everdead.ie

Sean Bateman wrote: »

United can comfortably meet the interest repayments and there is no basis whatsoever for your claim that "United are in serious negative equity". United's interest bill is £40 million a year and they're currently throwing off profits of £80 million a year. The club is worth somewhere in the £1.2-1.5 billion range. That's common knowledge.

EDIT - You're comparing apples and pears. Liverpool's "real" value probably is around that but the recent sale was a distressed sale. They couldn't pay the mortgage.

I don't want to drag this anymore OT then it already is but how did you make a large loss if intrest is 40m and your net profit is 100m?

--amadeus--

Sean Bateman wrote: »

United can comfortably meet the interest repayments and there is no basis whatsoever for your claim that "United are in serious negative equity". United's interest bill is £40 million a year and they're currently throwing off profits of £80 million a year. The club is worth somewhere in the £1.2-1.5 billion range. That's common knowledge.

I think you may have misread the financial statements.

The club profit is actually reported as £100.7million. However this year the group made a loss (not profit) of £83.6million. Around £67million of this loss relates to one off fees connected with the bond issue. Which means that (if they are excluded) the real loss was "only" £16.6million.

Now I'm not going to claim to be a maths whizz but the difference between +100.7 million and -16.6million is £117.3million. Making this as simple as possible the club made 100million but the parent company lost 16million so 116million went out of the business somewhere between the two. No doubt the Glazers took fees etc but the bulk of that will be in interest payments.

And your £40million in interest is only the £517million debt secured against the club and ignores the £200million in high interest PIK debt. Don't let the fact that the PIK debt is not secured against the club fool you, the club revenue is servicing that debt.

These numbers are from here, the first Google result for MU financial results

K-9

Sean Bateman wrote: »

The "debt free" thing is ridiculous. Do you think NESV had £300 million in cash lying around? There's still debt. There's just spin there too this time.

We'll see I suppose.

Liverpool were worth up to £700/800 Million apparently at one stage.

When the debt is rising and interest payments kept rising that wasn't long dropping.

Have a read of this:

The Swiss Ramble: United We Stand, Divided We Fall

enda1

This season or next will be Ferguson's last.

Its time. The clock's a'tickin'!

The Muppet

Some peeps appear to be a little slow on the uptake here. Man United are worth what somone is willing to pay for it (like everything else) Red Knights were trying to buy it for £1.5 Billion therefore thats what its worth , Simples.

The glazers obviously think it's worth more because they were not interested in red knighs bid, The value of the club is not determined by their assets alone , forcasted future revenue would be a significant factor.

The Muppet

K-9 wrote: »

We'll see I suppose.

Liverpool were worth up to £700/800 Million apparently at one stage.

When the debt is rising and interest payments kept rising that wasn't long dropping.

Have a read of this:

The Swiss Ramble: United We Stand, Divided We Fall

Where will the money for the new stadium come from assuming they are going to build one?

K-9

The Muppet wrote: »

Where will the money for the new stadium come from assuming they are going to build one?

Seeing as this isn't a pool thread, I'll leave that one. The answer is obvious anyway.

Where will the money come from if United want to increase the capacity?

There is a separate thread on this if you want to get in on it, you may have an unanswered question there IIRC.

Xavi6

mars bar wrote: »

really doesn't surprise to see who started this thread.

Really? I thought it'd be me :pac:

Soby

Xavi6 wrote: »

Really? I thought it'd be me :pac:

Actually thought it be you too haha:pac:

efb

Arsenal fan in peace.

Only two managers better than Arsene IMHO:-

Jose

And

Alex Ferguson

Stats don't lie.

There are hundreds of Rooneys. There are very few of the Calabre of Alex Ferguson

Leiva

Ferguson is the glue keeping it all together at Man Utd .

When he retires I fear for UTD as the new manager needs to be a instant success , otherwise with the debt time bomb anything less could see them fall well short of a top 4 team .

The ultimate remedy would be getting Mourino immediatly after Ferguson .
Getting the Glazers out (with club suffering massive losses) and spending a couple of seasons of mediocre league positions , but rebuilding with a top class manager.

I fear anything short of this will see UTD in big trouble and that's something I don't want to see .

If UTD are in trouble I want to see it at Anfield when they are 6-0 down , and not for reasons that are not football related .

Really hope they get the Glazers out a.s.a.p and the Premier League will be at last free of all these leeches.

M

GavRedKing

Are Ferguson and Man Utd. done?

Yes, yes they are. :rolleyes:

--amadeus--

The Muppet wrote: »

Some peeps appear to be a little slow on the uptake here. Man United are worth what somone is willing to pay for it (like everything else) Red Knights were trying to buy it for £1.5 Billion therefore thats what its worth , Simples.

The glazers obviously think it's worth more because they were not interested in red knighs bid, The value of the club is not determined by their assets alone , forcasted future revenue would be a significant factor.

In fairness there is a substantive difference between talking about buying and actually putting a concrete, funded and post due diligence offer on the table.

I can't be bothered searching for the exact numbers now but G&H rejected an offer in the region of £100million for 25% of LFC last year (valuing the club at £400million) and that Syrian guy was bouncing all over the media at the time of the Huang bid saying he would pay £400million+. But that's not what the club was worth, it was worth what it was sold for, £300million.

That Forbes valuation seems to be the peg that people who value Utd highly hang thier hat on. Based on teh commentary around the LFC sale cases they seem to be missing the small print that the Forbes valuation exclude debt. And if you really do insist on saying that MUFC are worth a billion then read this:

Other billion-dollar soccer clubs include Real Madrid ($1.35 billion), Spain's historic power, and the Premier League's Arsenal ($1.2 billion) and Liverpool (just over $1 billion; finishing just out of the top 10).

link

Just because the Glazers think the club is worth X doesn't make it so.

Iago

Haven't read the thread yet but must be nearly time for this by now no?

Sean Bateman

--amadeus-- wrote: »

But that's not what the club was worth, it was worth what it was sold for, £300million.

Not true.

That was a distressed sale on foot of all kinds of boardroom and legal shenanigans.

The market vale of Liverpool is obviously greater than £300 million.

El Siglo

It'll take a lot more than Rooney and the debts the Glazers have amounted to shake Fergie. United have been in a worse state before and managed to claw their way back (12 years without an FA cup appearance). I'd say Europe will be out of bounds for the next few years anyway and domestically it'll be tough but not impossible. One thing remains, you can't build a team by buying big names which means Fergie has to be a bit more cute and follow the Arsene Wenger formula; spotting young talent.

ShamoBuc

mixednuts wrote: »

If UTD are in trouble I want to see it at Anfield when they are 6-0 down , and not for reasons that are not football related .


M

yeah... I want to see that day too

racso1975

oh how i think about this thread and LAUGH!!!!!!!:D

K-9

racso1975 wrote: »

oh how i think about this thread and LAUGH!!!!!!!:D

The United superthread from a couple of months ago wins the comedy award though.

SlickRic

all this threads shows is a mere few, of thousands of examples of the modern football fan being painfully fickle.

that is all.

Dues Bellator

top of the league , undefeated nuff said me thinks:p

Mr.Crinklewood

almanu wrote: »

top of the league , undefeated nuff said me thinks:p

God did not realize it was May already...must have had a four month sleep.

How did Mayo do in the League?

The_Kew_Tour

Mr.Crinklewood wrote: »

God did not realize it was May already...must have had a four month sleep.

How did Mayo do in the League?

All he said was they are top of league, did he mention being Champions or something??? Dont spread ****e where it cant be spread.

Are you talking Football or Hurling cause ye have better chance of winning something in Hurling I say:P

Mr.Crinklewood

adrian280582 wrote: »

All he said was they are top of league, did he mention being Champions or something??? Dont spread ****e where it cant be spread.

Are you talking Football or Hurling cause ye have better chance of winning something in Hurling I say:P

Please show me the part of my post in which i mentioned the word "Champions".

Unearthly

People writing off Man Utd and it comes back to bite them in the ass.

It's a constant loop!

The_Kew_Tour

Mr.Crinklewood wrote: »

Please show me the part of my post in which i mentioned the word "Champions".

You said you did not realise it was May already am i seeing things.

Or were you trying say United will be relgated or something?;)

I mean ffs dont try do the whole "I never said that" BS when it's clear thats what you were getting at really

/end of story

Le King

Mr.Crinklewood wrote: »

Please show me the part of my post in which i mentioned the word "Champions".

Show me the part of the original post, to which you responded to, where the guy mentions anything about having the premier league won, May or anything about a hibernation period.

Galvasean

almanu wrote: »

top of the league , undefeated nuff said me thinks:p

So what you are saying is Alex Ferguson and Man United are finished????

Mr.Crinklewood

Le King wrote: »

Show me the part of the original post, to which you responded to, where the guy mentions anything about having the premier league won, May or anything about a hibernation period.

I did not state that that almanu said that Man Utd would win the Premier League, or talk about hibernation.

The phrase "nuff said me thinks" would indicate to me that almanu thinks that United being top of the league on the 27th of January is an indication that Ferguson and Man Utd are not done.

On the 16th of January Man City were top of the league, would that therefore indicate that on that date Ferguson and Man Utd were "done"?.

I would believe that a better indication would come in May when we know which teams have won which competitions. As a United fan, i am happy with the current league position however i never count my eggs before they are hatched.

Dues Bellator

Mr.Crinklewood wrote: »

I did not state that that almanu said that Man Utd would win the Premier League, or talk about hibernation.

The phrase "nuff said me thinks" would indicate to me that almanu thinks that United being top of the league on the 27th of January is an indication that Ferguson and Man Utd are not done.

On the 16th of January Man City were top of the league, would that therefore indicate that on that date Ferguson and Man Utd were "done"?.

I would believe that a better indication would come in May when we know which teams have won which competitions. As a United fan, i am happy with the current league position however i never count my eggs before they are hatched.

thats exactly what i was trying to point out , as of the 27th of January United are top of the league and remain undefeated .you really got to love the haters all the same . any excuse to have a pop at a great team and probably the premierships greatest ever manager (braces himself for Shankley shtstorm of stats)

Mr.Crinklewood

almanu wrote: »

thats exactly what i was trying to point out , as of the 27th of January United are top of the league and remain undefeated .you really got to love the haters all the same . any excuse to have a pop at a great team and probably the premierships greatest ever manager (braces himself for Shankley shtstorm of stats)

Hopefully your post is not being quoted by United haters come May, and hopefully you can also remind me if my little rant.

missingtime

This is my present to the utd fans....enjoy

That_Guy

It is clearly evident that yes, Man United should part ways with Ferguson for delivering them too much success.

Sack Fergie, sell Giggs!

rednik

Deleted User wrote: »

Sack Fergie, sell Giggs!

You could at least wait until the 28th.:)

flahavaj

Mister men wrote: »

It's does'nt look good for them. The difference before was they had the money and buying power to keep them at the top of the game. Those day's are now long gone and i can see it all ending in tears. Their debt is quite frankly staggering.

mike65 wrote: »

Fergie won't win another PL title, thats all I'll say.

recylingbin wrote: »

Ferguson is a cheque book manager.
A man who has consistently broken the british transfer record.
Now that he has no chequebook, he's in big trouble.

Enjoyed, would read again.

Le King

bad2dabone wrote: »

I think its fair to say that United look to be a club on the verge of a big downturn.

Warper wrote: »

Is this the end of Man Utd. and Fergie as we know them? With their star player Wayne Rooney intent on leaving due to the failure to add to the squad, this is not good for Utd. Rooney wants to win trophies and he doesn't see this happening at his current club. Having lost their best player to Real Madrid just over a year ago, have they now become a selling club?

The club is massively in debt having to fork out £60m just in interest payments per annum. The Glazers seem intent on lining their own pockets and have failed to reinvest the Ronaldo money in the squad. Measly buys by Utd's standards this summer in Bebe and Hernandez. Where will this lead them? Fergie looked demoralised yesterday in his press conference, he looks like he is coming to terms with the fact that they are not the biggest fish in the pond anymore. Correct me if im wrong but I have never heard Fergie criticise the Glazers. Is his time coming to an end? With City fast becoming the second best team in the League behind Chelsea and no funds available to buy world-class players the future looks very worrying for Man Utd. as we know them.

mike65 wrote: »

Fergie won't win another PL title, thats all I'll say.

recylingbin wrote: »

Grand. Hope is one thing. Evidence is another.
He brought through one crop of exceptional players. fair lay to him. But Maybe, just maybe, he got lucky

Stay strong on the hate....

Cantona's Collars

Not bad for a team in decline.

Turtyturd

Le King wrote: »

Stay strong on the hate....

Stay Classy.

Le King

Turtyturd wrote: »

Stay Classy.

Er... Yeah, sure.

Le King

Turtyturd wrote: »

Stay Classy.

Turtyturd wrote: »

This really sums things up, getting back into the top four and holding our position while making gradual steps towards the title should be the main priority for us now.

The record seems to mean more to them than us, but if anyone is looking to take any consolation from it United have pretty much peaked. Over the next few years they will lose Ferguson who is their main driving force and the spine of their team, with no funds to replace them and little talent coming through, I don't think they will be moving too much further ahead.

Bitter. And we are in decline too?!

Stay classy yourself there!

x

Turtyturd

Turtyturd wrote: »

Stay Classy.

Um hmmmm

Drumpot

Seriously now, come on United fans . . A liverpool fan put me straight, right after the final whistle of the game today.

After being very animated and moany at the pub tv until united equalised , he decided to come over to me (didnt know him) after the game and begin to tell me that the league is crap and United are lucky everybody else is crap. Then when I stated that we cant be too bad to win the league and be in the CL final, he continued to say how we were lucky we played nobody getting to the final. I stated that we played the team that hammered the defending champs, "ah but sure who were they ?". His logic flawless, I then stated we beat the defending EPL champs in the quarters "sure they are sh*t". I was beginning to find his flawless logic difficult to argue with.

Then he continued to inform me that if the league had started in January, it would of been Liverpools. Case closed. I felt like asking the bar tender to turn the tv off and write a letter of complaint to UEFA and the English FA that United be thrown out of Europe (cause they played nobody) and that they give the title to the true champs - Liverpool.

Have to say, it is so much more pleasing to watch so many haters, so used to sucking lemons, squirm with excuses and bring any topics (united players surrounding ref) to try and take the focus off the fact that United is the most successful domestic team in England.

mink_man

#15

Turtyturd wrote:

The record seems to mean more to them than us

Fúckin lol. After years of quoting 18-5 ad fúcking nauseum, suddenly the records don't matter to some LFC fans...

The_Kew_Tour

#15 wrote: »

Fúckin lol. After years of quoting 18-5 ad fúcking nauseum, suddenly the records don't matter to some LFC fans...

Dam ****ing right....1994 they told us to come back when we won it 18 times.......

WELL HERE WE ARE ON 19 BABY!!!!!!!