Should We Upgrade are Military And weapons?

Ian Beale

dunsandin wrote: »

No, the reason we escort cash in transit is because the banks pay over the odds for the service, and it pays the grunts wages, and don't even bother to tell me I'm wrong.

Since you don't want him telling you you're wrong I will. You're wrong.

Dempsey

I remember reading that some land locked country had a bigger navy than us, forget who though. I think we should have good border security. Probably save our fish our fish stocks and catch some drugs if we could adequately police our waters.

dunsandin

They're after our turf, I reckon. We could send a mowag, unless its having its cracks welded that day, or our artillery, unless there is no budget for shells that week, or our aircraft, unless they are busy ferrying ministers. It is nothing whatsoever to do with our personnell- they are first rate, it is to do with our budget, it is mickey mouse.Tell me I'm wrong. As an inside aside, we could swap some more beef for a few missiles, that would be a start.

Occam

Anderson Tasty Tarp wrote: »

We do all this, and a lot more whilst our government spends the least amount of money on defence than any other European nation.

Well apart from Slovakia, Bulgaria, Slovenia, Latvia, Lituania, Cyprus, Estonia, Luxemburg and malta... your right.

Royal Irish

Anderson Tasty Tarp wrote: »

The reason why we escort CIT is that the same murderers of Det.Gda.McCabe are still out there - they haven't gone away you know!.

Organised criminals are more likely to do over a CIT than the RIRA. Their too busy smuggling cigs to bother with that. The Irish army are security guards with a very limited capability.

Your earlier post is also abit over the top. That our countries biggest threat is from within. Yes thats true, but it isnt the army who is and will tackle it, its the Gardai.

All blows dealt to the RIRA in the last few months have been from the Gardai. Hell they were even in a shoot out along the border a couple of months ago, while the army lads were sitting in their nissans outside bank of Ireland while checking the windows for snipers lol.

dunsandin

If the general public knew the lengths that are gone to to protect the CIT Vehicles, there would be fits. OTT does not even begin to describe it. Rangers in copters anyone? (For those who say I'm talking about somthing I know nothing about)

deise go deo

Royal Irish wrote: »

Organised criminals are more likely to do over a CIT than the RIRA. Their too busy smuggling cigs to bother with that. The Irish army are security guards with a very limited capability.

Your earlier post is also abit over the top. That our countries biggest threat is from within. Yes thats true, but it isnt the army who is and will tackle it, its the Gardai.

All blows dealt to the RIRA in the last few months have been from the Gardai. Hell they were even in a shoot out along the border a couple of months ago, while the army lads were sitting in their nissans outside bank of Ireland while checking the windows for snipers lol.

Royal Irish, What do you know about the capabilities of the DF?
Have you ever served with or alongside them or are you basing your bile on tabloid newspaper opinion?

The fact is the IRA have not dared atempt to attack a CIT since the Army took over the role as they know the army would wipe the floor with them.

Royal Irish

deise go deo wrote: »

Royal Irish, What do you know about the capabilities of the DF?
Have you ever served with or alongside them or are you basing your bile on tabloid newspaper opinion?

The fact is the IRA have not dared atempt to attack a CIT since the Army took over the role as they know the army would wipe the floor with them.

I dont read any red top tabloids so its my own opinion. Am an ex soldier myself and served abroad and I'd like to think my opinion means something.

deise go deo

Royal Irish wrote: »

I dont read any red top tabloids so its my own opinion. Am an ex soldier myself and served abroad and I'd like to think my opinion means something.

Did you ever serve along side the DF overseas, I find it hard to believe an Ex Service man would have such a poor opinion of a Neighboring Army.
The DF dosent have the funding its neighbors have but the do alot with what they get, They are a professional and capable body of men and women.

K-9

Royal Irish wrote: »

I dont read any red top tabloids so its my own opinion. Am an ex soldier myself and served abroad and I'd like to think my opinion means something.

You served in the Irish Army?

Royal Irish

deise go deo wrote: »

Did you ever serve along side the DF overseas, I find it hard to believe an Ex Service man would have such a poor opinion of a Neighboring Army.
The DF dosent have the funding its neighbors have but the do alot with what they get, They are a professional and capable body of men and women.

No never served with anyone from the DF. My negative opinion is more to do with the funding/equipment they have, than the men and women serving in the DF.

Am sure if they were in a real combat situation they would be very capable and professional. But lets be honest, the only combat situation an Irish soldier will be getting involved in, will be a fight outside a niteclub with someone from the Navy.

Local-womanizer

The Defence Forces do plenty,during the floods and snow,who stepped in to help out those in need? Thats right,the DF. They didnt go around milking their work for thanks though.

Who deals with the huge number of IEDs and other viable explosives left lying around by scumbag gangs in this country,and who does it day in day out,in a lot of cases nearly full days,then go back to barracks,only to do it again and again Oh yea,the Army EOD squad do.

And who is the front line in the fight against drugs,the one country seen as a gateway to Europe for drugs? Oh yea,the Navy.

And the DF do all of the above without complaining that they have out-dated equipment,a serious lack of equipment and sh1tty pay brought about by huge cuts, which is something that can not be said by plenty more public workers in this country.

Oh and thats right. Ireland is not neutral,despite what some politicians think.

But yea,sure we dont need a DF. I mean I live in a lovely quiet area of the country,which next to none crime but I still lock the house when I go out, just in case it does get robbed. Think of the DF as something in place in case the sh1t hits the fan.

Soby

RobitTV wrote: »

Lads do you think Its time to Upgrade our weapons and Our military force? (Well defence force)

Think the money might be better spent on education

paddypowder

RobitTV wrote: »

Lads do you think Its time to Upgrade our weapons and Our military force? (Well defence force)

yes and no

yes to upgrading our weapons and military force

no to people against upgrading our military force and weapons

arybvtcw0eolkf

Royal Irish wrote: »

I dont read any red top tabloids so its my own opinion. Am an ex soldier myself and served abroad and I'd like to think my opinion means something.

I doubt you've served tbh, I suspect your a gamer.

Had you served you'd know how the military works within a national security/intel framework.

Stick with the consoles.

flash1080

There's some amount of s**** posted in this thread. What sort of a dope claims he could single-handedly face up to the PDF and win...

Darksaga87

Anderson Tasty Tarp wrote: »

I doubt you've served tbh, I suspect your a gamer.

Had you served you'd know how the military works within a national security/intel framework.

Stick with the consoles.

Beat me to it.

who the fug

Kasabian wrote: »

Only the Navy, them fecking Spanish are stealing our fish.

Stolen is the correct word as in they are all gone, nada zip zilsch

We have no fish

2 stroke

Yes. The uk are cutting their defense budget, so this is our chance to expand our glorious empire. Brian cowen can lead us into battle. (they do still execute military leaders dont they?)

mikemac

Upgrade of ear protectors if needed, don't want a repeat of this

Twenty years after it first emerged, the end of the Army deafness scheme saga is almost in sight after costing taxpayers €321m -- a third of which went to solicitors and barristers.

Defence Minister Willie O'Dea has said that 16,139 (or approximately 96 per cent) of 16,807 legal claims for Army deafness and personal injury have now been disposed of.

So far, €288m in costs have been incurred in compensation and legal fees for plaintiffs with just over €100m of this consisting of legal costs and medical reports.

It's clear some was getting rich from this

The most recent figures given by Mr O'Dea to Fine Gael's Jim O'Keeffe also reveal that 10 solicitors' firms earned more than €1.8m from the legal saga with Patrick V Boland and Son of Newbridge, Co Kildare, earning a grand total of €16.2m.

deise go deo

Soby wrote: »

Think the money might be better spent on education

That logic is a bit flawed, The army is one of the most cost effective and efficient services in the state, They have an extreamly limited budget as it is, To the extent that our naval personal will be at risk as several of their ships have already been pushed past their service life.

Reform needs to happen but if you are going to reform something why not reform the health service which actually needs it rather than the Army that can barely survive on the shoe string budget they get.

How about tackling the countries problems head on instead of pulling money out of other services to fund waste in the HSE etc

judestynes

RobitTV wrote: »

Lads do you think Its time to Upgrade our weapons and Our military force? (Well defence force)

Of course Ireland needs a standing army. They do stellar work while on peace keeping and peace enforcing missions abroad and they get the height of respect from foreign commanders under whom they might serve and from the local communities they are there to protect. Irish men have fought with distinction in every war which has occurred in Europe and in the United States. We have a long and very distinguished military history which we should be extremely proud of.
Ireland has no problem at all accepting European Union money to advance our country and should the European Union need Irish soldiers for missions, then we should send them.
Ireland, like any sovereign nation has its own as well as international obligations. Its own include supervision of fishing in its waters, the entrance of all peoples & goods at recognised entry points for proper supervision & in times of emergency the added search & rescue capacity to help those in need. It may also be used to keep civil order where the peace of the citizens & their government is under internal or external threat.
Internationally its army represents Ireland in peace keeping efforts at various hot spots & may also be used for international emergencies if it should develop skills particularly needed at that time.

Sykk

No. Ireland is a neutral country, one of the main reasons we're not dare asked to join in is because our defense forces suck.

Why would you want to pour billions into it to beef it up? (Yes you're talking billions if it's to purchase more than a few pea shooters)

It's quite nice to be free from the threat of getting bombed whilst on my way to work or happily enjoy a holiday abroad without some muslim guy wanting to kill me.

tl'dr: No

Amhran Nua

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

The defence budget is about 0.5% of GDP.

Its miniscule compared to the money-furnace that is the HSE, and it delivers excellent service at home and abroad, as Makikomi pointed out, and also comes in under budget which is something few if any other depts can boast.

This is correct, the Defence Forces have come up with a range of money saving initiatives with typical military precision, including buying second hand gear from European forces, which while still perfectly serviceable and modern, is steeply discounted. If we have more like the DF we'd be in great shape.

Voodu Child

I don't think we need to upgrade our military equipment, but our soldiers definitely need to be trained in modern military tactics.

Bunny hopping, jumping around corners, rushing at your enemy with a shotgun, ducking down real quick and then jumping back up, camping behind barrels......
Ive seen first-hand how effective these tactics can be so it is imperative that our defence forces be brought up to scratch with them.

It wasn't me!

Sykk wrote: »

No. Ireland is a neutral country

No it is not.

deise go deo

Sykk wrote: »

No. Ireland is a neutral country, one of the main reasons we're not dare asked to join in is because our defense forces suck.

Why would you want to pour billions into it to beef it up? (Yes you're talking billions if it's to purchase more than a few pea shooters)

It's quite nice to be free from the threat of getting bombed whilst on my way to work or happily enjoy a holiday abroad without some muslim guy wanting to kill me.

tl'dr: No

Ireland is not a Neutral country, The government has a policy of neutrality, There is a difference, To be a Nutral country it would have to be in our constitution. We are a non-alined country.

Run_to_da_hills

50 years ago Ireland had several state of the art jets in the Aircorps.

Now we have gone completely back wards and have just a couple of propeller driven airplanes to replace them.

Donny5

chughes wrote: »

I wonder how many supercarriers we could get for the navy with the money being pumped down the Anglo Irish Bank toilet ?

Probably a whole fleet.

The new Gerald Ford class super-carriers the US are buying cost around $5 billion apiece. Between the F-35s and other aircraft to fly from her, you'd probably spend another $10 billion, so you could probably get three for the cost of the bank bail-out. Of course, we could always just buy two, and then have some cash spare to run them. Then we could sell all our land apart from Haulbowline. We'd need to repurpose the army to sailors, though, as the complement of the two would be over 9000!

maxwell smart wrote: »

You know what we need? A few Trident subs, that will sort out the Spanish fishermen. I think we could get them cheap off the Brits with the correct offer. We should send over a crack team of negotiators for the government. (Cowen and Coughlan perhaps?):D

For the same price, we could happily buy a Continuously At Sea Nuclear Deterrent, if we could get someone to sell us one. Thanks to the nuclear non-proliferation treaties, we'd have to keep this one quiet and do some under the table deals with one of the less upstanding members of the nuclear club. Maybe Israel or India.

Of course, if we don't tell anyone about it, our nuclear deterrent wouldn't be much of a deterrent, even to Spanish fishermen. I propose we should instead purchase some Wasp-class amphibious assault carriers, which we could buy and fit out for maybe $5 billion apiece. These have fighters, attack helicopters, transport helicopters and a full battalion of Marines, for which we could substitute the Vikings, or something. Then we could enforce our fishing rights with vigour, and invade and hold most small Carribean nations. If we bought two, we could probably take the Falklands, especially if we caught the EFAs on the ground.

Of course, if we really had the money to spend, I'd cut the national debt.

dunsandin wrote: »

passed selection for sandhurst myself

Lawl

Wicklowrider

Anderson Tasty Tarp wrote: »

Who defuses the now daily pipe bombs?.. I wish the army press office released the true figures for these incidents.

Anderson Tasty Tarp - I believe the EOD attended 48 VIABLE device call-outs last year,the figures are available. I know I don't need to explain to yourself that these were primed, ready to maim, kill or destroy property.
I also know the figure will way up this year. Realistically only those who have been there know what the PDF do. It never ceases to amaze me how people who never were can tell me whats what. Also, I was mainly infantry - so I can tell you about the infantry AT THE TIME I served, but I could tell you little about Engineers or Calvalry.. so don't know how Joe Barstool can speak with authourity.

BigDuffman

dunsandin wrote: »

I have 2 beautiful kids, a lovely wife, and I pay more out in wages in a day than you earn in a month.

Based on this type of bullsh!t your argument has been rendered void in my eyes due to stench of overwhelming arrogant tosserishness (I had to invent a word to describe it) off that one statement.

dunsandin wrote: »

OTT does not even begin to describe it. Rangers in copters anyone? (For those who say I'm talking about somthing I know nothing about)

Again wild statements of "fact" dribbled from the orifice of someone claiming to know something does not in-fact make it true.

If their were rangers in the sky over every CIT:rolleyes:, what soldier worth his salt would go telling some muppet not in the DF all about the intricate and highly sensitive security details. The caliber of such an individual should make you re-consider your source.

I hear that the rangers are now cammo'ed up and hiding in ditches to take out illegal dumpers, they are also working for ericom and any time you download music illegally or touch yourself to a picture of Grainne Seoige they will knock your door in and shoot you in the face.

The DF is a fire extinguisher or insurance, sits on a wall till its needed. You have to pay money to keep it serviced and running, but when its needed your glad you paid the shillings.

Funny how people whinge over what is a comparatively tiny expense to the inefficiencies in the rest of the system.

The Aussie

dunsandin wrote: »

and before you say I'm talking out of me hole, family have served in every European armed conflict of the last 100 years-totally warlord genes, more soldiers in the brood than gengis khan. My feckin name means soldier, and the irish defence forces are up there with the Irish Ski team. Father soldier, grandfathers both professional soldiers, passed selection for sandhurst myself, wifes family D.F, son in law A.C. Ultimate respect for anybody willing to put themselves in harms way, but we could not resist against , well, anybody. I reckon I could have ye all myself if it came to it.:D

Ive got to admit ive read this and i dont know how to take it, i just dont know.
on one hand it could be Pure Comedy Gold but on the other it could be one of the biggest pile of steaming crud ive read on Boards.ie and there has been some absolute rippers over the past year and a half, so can you get back to me about it, im actually interested, cheers

Wicklowrider

dunsandin wrote: »

passed selection for sandhurst myself,

Ah feck, Ben - is that you again?
Didn't Alan tell you to " "Don't start banging on about bloody Sandhurst again. ...."
http://bit.ly/arA46D

Manic Moran

Reform needs to happen but if you are going to reform something why not reform the health service which actually needs it rather than the Army that can barely survive on the shoe string budget they get.

It seems to me that after several attempts at reforming and re-vitalising the health service, it's still something of a money pit.

At least the Defence Forces have shown that they can be vaguely responsible with the finances they get, and make the most out of every Euro. What happened to reinforcing success, instead of blindly reinforcing failure?

one of the main reasons we're not dare asked to join in is because our defense forces suck.

How do you explain Iceland, which has no military at all, and had to actually create a platoon to go to Afghanistan? Or Luxembourg, whose army is all of a battalion strong? They're members of NATO. Even the Baltic States have their airspace patrolled by NATO countries with deployments happening on a rotating basis.

You have it backwards. If you want to avoid (or can't) spending money on defence, but still be defended, join an alliance. If you want to rely on yourself alone, have an effective military.

NTM

dunsandin

Local-womanizer wrote: »

The Defence Forces do plenty,during the floods and snow,who stepped in to help out those in need? Thats right,the DF. They didnt go around milking their work for thanks though.

Who deals with the huge number of IEDs and other viable explosives left lying around by scumbag gangs in this country,and who does it day in day out,in a lot of cases nearly full days,then go back to barracks,only to do it again and again Oh yea,the Army EOD squad do.

And who is the front line in the fight against drugs,the one country seen as a gateway to Europe for drugs? Oh yea,the Navy.

And the DF do all of the above without complaining that they have out-dated equipment,a serious lack of equipment and sh1tty pay brought about by huge cuts, which is something that can not be said by plenty more public workers in this country.

Oh and thats right. Ireland is not neutral,despite what some politicians think.

But yea,sure we dont need a DF. I mean I live in a lovely quiet area of the country,which next to none crime but I still lock the house when I go out, just in case it does get robbed. Think of the DF as something in place in case the sh1t hits the fan.

Which is exactly what I'm saying. Top class personnel, third rate equipment. The question in the op was not "are the DF crap?" it was could we resist an invasion(though who could be ar5ed invading is a mystery to me). My daughter is marrying a DF member, and he is a quality lad, as are his colleagues, but they work with obsolete, underpowered and unsuitable gear. Our self-propelled gun and attack helicopter fleet is a little depleted at the mo.

FreudianSlippers

Should We Upgrade OUR Military And weapons?

deise go deo

OisinT wrote: »

Should We Upgrade OUR Military And weapons?

I dont follow, Are you claiming the DF is not Our military?

Namabillion

The Army could barely fight the floods last year.

FreudianSlippers

deise go deo wrote: »

I dont follow, Are you claiming the DF is not Our military?

Thread title reference.

Local-womanizer

Namabillion wrote: »

The Army could barely fight the floods last year.

It was not the DF job to fight the floods as you put it,as it kind of is near impossible to fight nature.

They were there to limit the effects of the floods on the public and by all accounts done a fantastic job in doing so.

OS119

dunsandin wrote: »

Which is exactly what I'm saying. Top class personnel, third rate equipment. The question in the op was not "are the DF crap?" it was could we resist an invasion(though who could be ar5ed invading is a mystery to me). My daughter is marrying a DF member, and he is a quality lad, as are his colleagues, but they work with obsolete, underpowered and unsuitable gear. Our self-propelled gun and attack helicopter fleet is a little depleted at the mo.

the fundamental problem here - and apologies for being serious in AH - is that Ireland has for political reasons forged a military doctrine/Army structure/procurement trend that falls between its two potential threats, kind of meets one, completely misses the other and spends huge amounts doing it.

if Makikomi is correct and Irelands only existential threat comes from internal forces then a gendarmarie force is required - Special Forces, Bomb Disposal, guarding of vital infrastructure and large scale riot control. what it doesn't need is Artillery, Mortars, Armour, Surface to Air Weapons and Combat Engineering - however if Irelands defensive forces exist to successfully fight off or deter external threats then its doctrine/structure and procurement trends are as woefully misconceived as they are if the precept is that Irelands threats are internal.

in order to successfully defend Ireland from external agression you'd need a force structure specifically designed to combat a force that could access Irelands territory - and by force of logic that would have to be a highly mobile force in order to actually arrive on Irish territory. instead Ireland fields a force with no ability to deny its invader air supremacy over Irish military units and critical infrastructure, has no ability - either through air or sea power - to interdict its invader before he arrives on Irish territory, little ability to move the one 'big stick' it possess (its towed, 105mm tube Artillery) to where its needed, and has very little ability to move its army towards the enemy when that enemy can fly anywhere, at anytime, and engage any ground target or line of communication it wishes.

i'm genuinely puzzled as to exactly what anyone thinks the Irish Army could achieve in the face of even a limited, geographically specific external threat.

Ireland spends money on resouces and structures that couldn't be used against an internal threat, would be of very limited use against an external threat, and doesn't take on its deployments in support of UNSC resolutions. it needs to pick a threat/capability and build its forces around a doctrine to combat that threat and provide those capabilities - not just arse about with a mish-mash of ideas and politically convenient platitudes.

dunsandin

Steaming pile of turds? F. You you *****. Grandfather RSM, Grandfather Cpl, Father Sgt, I enlisted for Officer training. Family members are Heavy Artillery Cmmdr., Tank Cmmdr(UK), three tours in the Leb(Irl), and I wont bother listing the current serving members in the DF and AC. My family are Military through and through, yet some little to55er on an internet forum can come on and make tough with a keyboard and mouth off like the little man they are. My family fought in the trenches of WW1, the Beaches of WW2 and are still proudly carrying arms, so if you think I am being facetious or lighthearted, you can feckin think again pal. The Irish Army is a token force, underequipped with obsolete junk. But they have good men and women. Done with this, blood pressure wont take it, but god use are tough with a keyboard.

Steyr

maxxie wrote: »

For what! Why even have a defense force! Waste of money! Do **** all here and **** all on tour..

Say that to people who have been rescued over the years by IAC SAR Crews more often in terrible weather, see what happens to you.

Steyr

dunsandin wrote: »

The Irish Army is a token force, underequipped with obsolete junk. But they have good men and women.

I agree with your post but Javelins/Mowags/Steyr's are not Obsolete and they are underequipped.

Donny5

dunsandin wrote: »

I enlisted for Officer training.

Going for officer training is like starting a marathon - it only counts if you finish.

Donny5

Steyr wrote: »

Say that to people who have been rescued over the years by IAC SAR Crews more often in terrible weather, see what happens to you.

In fairness, Steyr, the Air Corps isn't much to write home about and they don't do SAR any more.

FreudianSlippers

dunsandin wrote: »

[Ranting and raving] ...but god use are tough with a keyboard.

what use is a tough keyboard?

Steyr

Namabillion wrote: »

The Army could barely fight the floods last year.

ATCP. They stay put until needed, they were called and they performed above and beyond.

Steyr

Donny5 wrote: »

In fairness, Steyr, the Air Corps isn't much to write home about and they don't do SAR any more.

Totally agree but they have a proud history of doing SAR.

dunsandin

Both my grandparents died in front line service in WW11. My father fought with destinction, I still have and cherish his medals. My son in law carries out the duties you all laud and respect and I respect him for it. I completed that marathon you mouth about. My surname is Warrior when translated, and this is my last post on Boards.