Randi's million $ challange

maccored

How many people on here have actually read the terms for the JREF challange? Wouldnt you think that rule 12 kinda knocks out most of the average general public?

This offer is not open to any and all persons. Before being considered as an applicant, the person applying must satisfy two conditions: First, he/she must have a “media presence,” which means having been published, written about, or known to the media in regard to his/her claimed abilities or powers. This can be established by producing articles, videos, books, or other published material that specifically addresses the person’s abilities. Second, he/she must produce at least one signed document from an academic who has witnessed the powers or abilities of the person, and will validate that these powers or abilities have been verified.

Therefore isnt it not very surprising that it hasnt been claimed since you literally have to be a paranormal celebrity?

Oryx

Whats an academic in their world? Would my old geography teacher count?

Ive always thought the JRef challenge was a publicity stunt, this kinda confirms that for me.

maccored

this is fro mtheir FAQ

(4)

Q. Why does it appear that you only test persons with very minor and even frivolous claims, and not the prominent "psychic" performers and/or scientists who appear on television and in the media, and who write books about their careers?


A. We can only test persons who either apply to become claimants for the million-dollar prize, or who will actually submit themselves to undergoing proper test procedures. The "stars" never do this, and in fact they do anything they can to avoid us and our challenge; they would rather just run on about past glories, point to anecdotal evidence, or grandly ignore our genuine offer to test them. The people who do apply are probably honestly convinced of their abilities, and have no fear of discovery. Where are James Van Praagh, Sylvia Browne, George Anderson, John Edward, and the rest of the current "big names"? And why hasn't Uri Geller, the professional spoon-bender (remember him from the 70s?) snapped up this easy cash? One can only wonder.
We at JREF must offer to test any and every applicant, because we cannot be the judges of whether a claim is likely to be valid. Only occasionally, we encounter a claim that is just so silly or dangerous, that we do not offer to go ahead with negotiations. Example: a person claimed to be controlling every event in the world just by wagging his head back and forth, and he even sent us a video of himself in action. He also "fed" a spirit living in a black stone, through a hole in that stone. We are tolerant, but not quite naive enough to spend time discussing such a claim.

So basically he's saying in the rules that you need a media prescence, then saying none of these kind of people apply - as they have a media prescence and with that a living to protect.


Why not just drop rule 12 then and let anyone apply? Is it because the way it is means that virtually no-one will apply in reality and therefore he'll never lose his money?

maccored

Oryx wrote: »

Ive always thought the JRef challenge was a publicity stunt, this kinda confirms that for me.

same here

Genghiz Cohen

A quick search of the forums found a nice list of applicants, most of which were able to supply both media presence and academic affidavit.
Can't be that hard

maccored

and?

My point is that if you DONT have a media prescence then you cant apply. that itself rules out a lot of people.

Oryx

But why have that as a requirement in the first place? Its certainly not an idiot filter.

maccored

apparently it was introduced as the cost was too much interviewing every tom dick and harold - but yet in the FAQ it says all costs are borne by the participant and not the foundation so that makes no sense.

I think the main reason rule 12 is there is so the general public cant apply. People with a media profile will normally be making a living from it and therefore may not be completely and utterly genuine, which would mean they wouldnt put themselves forward. Even if they do, the whole idea of both the foundation AND the participant having to be happy with the arragements means the foundation can always pull out of an arrangement where they think they might lose the money. IMO of course.

The about page is a laugh, with its 'critical thinkers' and 'the scientific method'. i didnt know there was a scientific method developed for paranormal research.

Major Lovechild

Oryx wrote: »

Whats an academic in their world? Would my old geography teacher count?

Ive always thought the JRef challenge was a publicity stunt, this kinda confirms that for me.

What's an academic in your world? A level 7 from Hogwarts?

Major Lovechild

If you consider the challenge to be a publicity stunt then so be it. It is however a genuine challenge. If you do have psychic or paranormal abilities then that would be a fantastic gift and the world has a right to know about it. Since the dawn of time there have been people who claim to have special powers and yet not one of them has ever been able to prove it. I don't have a problem with the media requirements. A world champion always starts out at home.

If, for example, I really could communicate with the dead and prove that without a shadow of a doubt that there were realms of existence beyond this plane then I would be shouting it out to the world. The world has every right to know. It would be one of the biggest breakthroughs in the history of mankind. To keep my powers secret would be a despicable insult to the greatest questions of humanity. I would of course attract media attention most likely starting with local press . Of course also I would have to prove my abilities - after all - I could just as equally claim to be a world heavyweight champion boxer. It would be routine to be tested and these tests would of course require strict rules. We couldn't be allowed to cheat after all - we are dealing with one of history's most important questions.

I wouldn't expect the test to be easy, it would probably be very hard but knowing that I was part of solving one of the greatest enigmas of all time would be worth it. I would be taking humanity out of the dark and into the light. I would be removing the timeless fear and uncertainty. I would be giving the world hope. Hope and new horizons. Hope and a brand new avenue of scientific research. Hope.

And for bringing the world into this new age hope and enlightenment I'd be a million quid richer.



If I really could....

maccored

i have already, in private, outlined how I view this all as a bit of a con job major lovechild. In fact, as far as I know, you havent responded to that facebook missive yet so I might just reexpress my overall outlook on here.

Primarily the issues are

1) Why is the agreement so set in ways it can be read depending on how the foundation would want to read it? (for example, does media presence cover a small article in a local paper or does it need to be more than that?)

2) why is there a need for Rule 12 at all since ANYONE should be able to enter?

3) Why do Randi-ites think the paranormal revolves solely around medium and psychics?

4) What has the paranormal got to do with any of this? Randi has basically made a career out of debunking conmen. As far as I know - and to be honest, I have asked you to furnish me with this info already ML to no avail - but Randi has never actually tried to look into the paranormal any further than spotting some dodgy mediums and psychics and uncovering them - much like derren brown, houdini and various other people do/have done. Therefore he isnt interested in the paranormal - he's interested in stopping conmen. Fair dues to him I say - but this whole thing has nothing to do with the paranormal. Its a career randi set up for himself to get the more gullible to buy his books and attend his appearances etc. The 'challange' for want of a better word is the marketing that keeps it all going.

I really dont know how you can call it a genuine challenge given that only certain people can apply. If its genuine, open it up to everyone with no restrictions and make the agreement in simple english rather than legalese.

Major Lovechild

maccored wrote: »

i have already, in private, outlined how I view this all as a bit of a con job major lovechild. In fact, as far as I know, you havent responded to that facebook missive yet so I might just reexpress my overall outlook on here.

Primarily the issues are

1) Why is the agreement so set in ways it can be read depending on how the foundation would want to read it? (for example, does media presence cover a small article in a local paper or does it need to be more than that?)

2) why is there a need for Rule 12 at all since ANYONE should be able to enter?

3) Why do Randi-ites think the paranormal revolves solely around medium and psychics?

4) What has the paranormal got to do with any of this? Randi has basically made a career out of debunking conmen. As far as I know - and to be honest, I have asked you to furnish me with this info already ML to no avail - but Randi has never actually tried to look into the paranormal any further than spotting some dodgy mediums and psychics and uncovering them - much like derren brown, houdini and various other people do/have done. Therefore he isnt interested in the paranormal - he's interested in stopping conmen. Fair dues to him I say - but this whole thing has nothing to do with the paranormal. Its a career randi set up for himself to get the more gullible to buy his books and attend his appearances etc. The 'challange' for want of a better word is the marketing that keeps it all going.

I really dont know how you can call it a genuine challenge given that only certain people can apply. If its genuine, open it up to everyone with no restrictions and make the agreement in simple english rather than legalese.

Obviously you weren't paying attention. We discussed this on the phone but I can see you want it in writing.

1. We have discussed this to the best of my knowledge. Further clarification would mean you asking the JREF directly. As you have said that "you don't wish to know anything about Randi" I really can't see how you will solve that one.

2. Again I believe we had discussed this and I said I would personally contact the JREF on your behalf and ask them to amend Rule 12 so that bin men, lion tamers, chartered accountants and anyone else who doesn't claim to have any paranormal powers can apply. I'll do my best.

3. They don't. Who ever said they did? You should check it out but as "you don't wish to know anything about Randi" I really can't see how you will solve that one.

4. "What has the paranormal got to do with any of this?" and "As far as I know - and to be honest, I have asked you to furnish me with this info already ML to no avail" Please refer to my first point. You're the one who thinks the challenge is disengenuous - not me. I quite like it.

Genghiz Cohen

Steps to get media attention:
1) Contact media outlet, stating you wish to accept the JREF Million Dollar Challange.

Dave!

In the last few years the JREF has changed its direction so that it focuses its energies on high-profile targets. This is because these tend to be the ones that are making the big money from it, and they usually have big followings. It was a strategic decision more so than anything. You'll see that there's a few videos on YouTube of Randi on national TV challenging Sylvia Browne and others to take the challenge.

If you are an 'amateur' psychic, then there are many local skeptical organisations (at least in the US) that have prizes. You should contact your local one and snap it up.

maccored

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

Steps to get media attention:
1) Contact media outlet, stating you wish to accept the JREF Million Dollar Challange.

So, you dont have a 'media presence' and go to a newspaper saying you want to take the challenge.

First of all, are you telling me that would be acceptable under Rule 12? I dont think so - the rule is too gray.

Secondly, why jump through that hoop? Why bother having that requirement in the first palce?

maccored

Dave! wrote: »

In the last few years the JREF has changed its direction so that it focuses its energies on high-profile targets. This is because these tend to be the ones that are making the big money from it, and they usually have big followings. It was a strategic decision more so than anything. You'll see that there's a few videos on YouTube of Randi on national TV challenging Sylvia Browne and others to take the challenge.

Major Lovechild made that point to me as well, and i totally agree. But its not paranormal though - its about unmasking conmen who use their medium/psychic claims as a cover to take money off people.

Plus, the whole challange doesnt seem to have any scope to try and tackle actual paranormal experiences - which isnt surprising as thats an impossible thing to prove in the first place.

maccored

Major Lovechild wrote: »

Obviously you weren't paying attention. We discussed this on the phone but I can see you want it in writing.

1. We have discussed this to the best of my knowledge. Further clarification would mean you asking the JREF directly. As you have said that "you don't wish to know anything about Randi" I really can't see how you will solve that one.

Lets have some critical thinking here. If I had wanted to contact the JREF directly I wouldnt have made this thread. I would have contacted them. Using a flippant phrase that I had obviously thrown around at some stage doesnt actually pose an answer to the questions the OP poses.

2. Again I believe we had discussed this and I said I would personally contact the JREF on your behalf and ask them to amend Rule 12 so that bin men, lion tamers, chartered accountants and anyone else who doesn't claim to have any paranormal powers can apply. I'll do my best.

Seriously, thats very decent and I appreciate that. But - Im trying to see what others opinions are with this thread.

3. They don't. Who ever said they did? You should check it out but

So you are saying that in as far as reference to the 'paranormal' end of the foundation, they test more than mediums, psychics and fraudsters? Again, I ask for your help as you never seem to furnish me with further info on that. All i read about is the same stuff mentioned on the About Page of Randi's site - mainly mediums, psychics and 'paranormal fraudsters'.[/quote]

as "you don't wish to know anything about Randi" I really can't see how you will solve that one.

You copied and pasted this from the when you typed it last time, didnt you? Go on, admit it! My reply is still the same to this as it was earlier. names "Using a flippant phrase that I had obviously thrown around at some stage doesnt actually pose an answer to the questions the OP poses.".

4. "What has the paranormal got to do with any of this?" and "As far as I know - and to be honest, I have asked you to furnish me with this info already ML to no avail" Please refer to my first point.

so .. you cant then? basically go ask the JREF?

Im going to do some copy and pasting "But - Im trying to see what others opinions are with this thread."

You're the one who thinks the challenge is disengenuous - not me. I quite like it.

its completely and utterly disingenuous as far as being a tool to determine if the paranormal is valid or not. Quite ingenious though if its a tool to garner a little army of self titled 'critical thinkers' though ;-)

SkepticOne

Surely not having any psychic or paranormal ability is the big stumbling block, not the media presence thing?

Dave!

maccored wrote: »

Major Lovechild made that point to me as well, and i totally agree. But its not paranormal though - its about unmasking conmen who use their medium/psychic claims as a cover to take money off people.

Plus, the whole challange doesnt seem to have any scope to try and tackle actual paranormal experiences - which isnt surprising as thats an impossible thing to prove in the first place.

Well the JREF would no doubt be of the opinion that all psychics/mediums are charlatans and conmen, or else deluded but well-meaning individuals -- regardless of whether they're high profile or not. So if you want to target specific ones, then the ones doing the most damage would no doubt be where you should aim your attentions.

maccored

SkepticOne wrote: »

Surely not having any psychic or paranormal ability is the big stumbling block, not the media presence thing?

theres probably quite a few people who may claim to have such abilities but dont have the media prescence to be able to apply.

maccored

Dave! wrote: »

Well the JREF would no doubt be of the opinion that all psychics/mediums are charlatans and conmen, or else deluded but well-meaning individuals -- regardless of whether they're high profile or not. So if you want to target specific ones, then the ones doing the most damage would no doubt be where you should aim your attentions.

i agree. Still though, its not very paranormal really. I dont really see how the fact that no-one has actually taken the test can be taken as an indication (or not) on the reality of paranormal events.

SkepticOne

maccored wrote: »

theres probably quite a few people who may claim to have such abilities but dont have the media prescence to be able to apply.

I think its been already pointed out that media presence would be fairly easy to obtain if psychic or paranormal abilities could be demonstrated. Hell, even charlatans are able to get in the papers fairly easily. I don't see why it should be a major stumbling block.

I think you might have a case if there were a bunch of people who claim to have solid evidence of the paranormal but are being held back by the media requirement. You might read about them on blogs for example or you might know of a few personally. All it would take is one.

I think the main problem for those with beliefs in the paranormal is simple lack of evidence rather than anything else. If the evidence existed, then the media requirement could be overcome fairly easily and it could proceed from there.

While the lack of success of anyone with the Randi prize does not not prove that there's no paranormal activity (you can't after all prove a negative), it does create problems for people who believe in the paranormal. Why has no one won the prize in all the years of it's existence?

maccored

i think its already been pointed out that that is avoiding the question and not answering it.

the reason why people havent won the prize is because most people are excluded from it. full stop. plus - prove to me that getting into a paper would satisfy Rule 12. Create problems for people who believe in mediums and fake psychics btw sceptic1 - not people who believe in the paranormal. there is NO link between randis challange and the fecken paranormal. as mentioned already, lots of links between randis challange and tracking down conmen - well done to all, but its not paranormal related in any sense.

Can we put this to bed then? Randi's challange is a bit of a publicity stunt and isnt really anything to do with the paranormal since its aimed at tv and media personalities, not actual everyday people?

If you claim it IS paranormal related, then please make your point.

Genghiz Cohen

maccored wrote: »

Can we put this to bed then? Randi's challange is a bit of a publicity stunt and isnt really anything to do with the paranormal since its aimed at tv and media personalities, not actual everyday people?

So anyone who happens to have a media presence is a fraud?

Dave!

maccored wrote: »

i think its already been pointed out that that is avoiding the question and not answering it.

the reason why people havent won the prize is because most people are excluded from it. full stop. plus - prove to me that getting into a paper would satisfy Rule 12. Create problems for people who believe in mediums and fake psychics btw sceptic1 - not people who believe in the paranormal. there is NO link between randis challange and the fecken paranormal. as mentioned already, lots of links between randis challange and tracking down conmen - well done to all, but its not paranormal related in any sense.

Can we put this to bed then? Randi's challange is a bit of a publicity stunt and isnt really anything to do with the paranormal since its aimed at tv and media personalities, not actual everyday people?

If you claim it IS paranormal related, then please make your point.

I don't understand why 'everyday' psychics/mediums are not fraudsters, but high-profile ones are... Can you clarify? What's the difference? They both tend to have many satisfied clients who believe that they've been given an accurate reading. Incidentally so do the likes of Derren Brown and Ian Rowland (skeptics/non-believers) when they use the same cold reading techniques.

maccored

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

So anyone who happens to have a media presence is a fraud?

what?

Ive an idea - instead of trying to sidetrack the thread with dillusions, how about your opinion on the OP?

maccored

Dave! wrote: »

I don't understand why 'everyday' psychics/mediums are not fraudsters, but high-profile ones are... Can you clarify? What's the difference? They both tend to have many satisfied clients who believe that they've been given an accurate reading. Incidentally so do the likes of Derren Brown and Ian Rowland (skeptics/non-believers) when they use the same cold reading techniques.

Who said that? Im saying that everyone should get a shot at this challange, not just those who apparently have a media prescence.

The most common thing I hear from cynics sceptics is that the paranormal isnt real as no-one has passed randi's challange. Im makling the point that not everyone is allowed to take the challange (plus its not really paranormal related anyway, but thats another thread)

Where has this " 'everyday' psychics/mediums are not fraudsters, but high-profile ones are" come from or am I reading a different thread than the rest of ye's?

Or (more likely the truth), none of you have a decent answer for me? There is no reasonable excuse not to let anyone enter randi's challange.

Oryx

I suppose a non cynical way of looking at this rule would be that because extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, a quick way of establishing whether a person is doing something pretty radical would be 'has it hit the papers yet?' Otherwise its not an investigation into general claims as such, but more a way for jref to knock down those who make money from their extrasensory claims. If thats what it is, then it should be marketed as such, not as a come all ye to anyone involved in esoteric things.

maccored

personally i see it as a way to limit and pick and choose entrants as well as do as you mentioned. so far I dont think we've got any reasonable suggestions to dispute this.

Standman

maccored wrote: »

personally i see it as a way to limit and pick and choose entrants as well as do as you mentioned. so far I dont think we've got any reasonable suggestions to dispute this.

Personally I had always thought that anyone could enter the challenge, this is the first I've heard of any conditions and I was surprised. Then thinking about it, this challenge is known about all over the world, I don't think it's unreasonable to have some conditions to lessen the workload. And if you do have some supernatural power or ability then why would getting over rule 12 be a problem? If you wanted to keep what ever ability you have a secret then you wouldnt be applying for the prize.

Also you said earlier that, "the reason why people havent won the prize is because most people are excluded from it. full stop.", which implies that you know there are people out there with supernatural abilities who would actually pass all tests and win the prize if they were allowed enter. Prove this, show evidence for it and the Randi challenge will have lost credibility for me and most people.

maccored

i cant imply anything - only others can read implications into what someone types.

I made a pretty simple point.

You cant say that paranormal abilities dont exist as no-one has won this prize, considering not everyone can enter it.

Cant really say it plainer than that (though I could waffle on about how apparently being psychic doesnt cover the full paranormal spectrum, which means this challenge has a bit of a identity crisis sicne people see it as the de facto 'paranormal challange'.)

Dont even get me started about half arsely doing something in such a way that you have to prohibit people from entering to make life easier in the judging.

Finally, a lot of you seem to be pretty sure contacting your local newspaper will satisfy rule 12. Seems a tad bit naive to me.