Electronic bus stop timetables

L1011

To add to the above, the "brook" in Meadowbrook is called the Joan Slade and it also has no recorded Irish name, so I'll be interested to see what gibberish is developed to put on the bus scrolls for it....

partyatmygaff

These are informative signs designed to inform all bus users. All bus users understand English, very few would understand the sign if it was in Irish. It would be a bit pointless to create an information system in a language people hardly understand let alone use. Making up Irish placenames in 2011 in a futile attempt to bring the language in to greater use is a waste of time.

That username is already in use.

MYOB wrote: »

But you don't, so you're not.

I agree with you that many Dublin City street names are English, then tranlasted to Irish.

However, the DB digital displays show the destination, and you have to admit, the vast majority of those destinations are English bastardisations of the Irish.



Ballinteer - Baile an tSaoir
Nutgrove - Ceathrú an Notaigh

It doesn't matter though, because once you see these native Irish names flashed up on the screen, you will hate them, as you simply do not have any time for the Gaelic language in your modern Anglo existence.

It makes me all the happier to know that some angry Boardsies are so pissed off at seeing Irish on public signage, and there's nothing they can do about it.

I'll be back with more complaints about certain people not following the rules.

partyatmygaff

That username is already in use. wrote: »

It doesn't matter though, because once you see these native Irish names flashed up on the screen, you will hate them, as you simply do not have any time for the Gaelic language in your modern Anglo existence.

Who here would recognise "Ceathrú an Notaigh" as being Nutgrove? I'd wager a guess and say less than 5% of Bus users would recognise the name. No one calls Nutgrove Ceathrú an Notaigh so why should a supposedly informative sign purposefully make itself less useful by displaying placenames in a language that's incomprehensible to 95% of the country?

Jayuu

Another expensive waste of time and money from the Irish-language fascists! Are the signs going to put the Irish language in italics then? :rolleyes:

The irony is that this is the sort of action that is ultimately self-defeating in that actually creates the backlash against the language as people realise the cost and pointlessness of it.

One would wish that Dublin Bus would fight this tooth and nail in order to provoke the Government in rescinding or altering the Act in order to reflect the reality that the vast majority of us while having no problem with Irish would prefer that we didn't have it forced down our throats in meaningless ways every day by people who don't even live in the places that they are affecting.

Its a pity FG have backed down on their plan to make Irish optional for the LC. Once that had gone through it would have been easier to make the case for changing this stupid act which costs us millions that we can't afford for no added benefit whatsoever.

That username is already in use.

partyatmygaff wrote: »

why should a supposedly informative sign purposefully make itself less useful by displaying placenames in a language that's incomprehensible to 95% of the country?

Yeah, just a slight issue with the constitution of Ireland - the country you're from?

Article 8
1. The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.
2. The English language is recognised as a second official language.


Yeah, that kinda sucks, for you. We'd need a REFERENDUM to remove the national language of Ireland (Irish) and make English the first and only language of the State.

Is that going to happen? Would the Irish people vote to make English the first and only language of the Republic of Ireland? I think not.

Reform the curriculum and boost funding for Gaelscoils.

Until then, you're all stuck with An Ghaeilge, the language that you all detest.

dubbie82

I wonder how other countries manage to avoid the language issue???
Switzerland has four official languages and if you are in a area where people speak french they keep the signs in French, if you are in the german speaking area the signs are in german etc.

L1011

That username is already in use. wrote: »

However, the DB digital displays show the destination, and you have to admit, the vast majority of those destinations are English bastardisations of the Irish.

I've already covered this - they're not. You don't know Dublin at all. Most buses destinations are either city centre or a suburban area - only the routes which follow DUTC tram lines are likely to have Irish-language native destinations and even some of them aren't (e.g. 66A/B go to the very much viking Leixlip)

That username is already in use. wrote: »

Ballinteer - Baile an tSaoir
Nutgrove - Ceathrú an Notaigh

As far as I know, "Ceathrú a Notaigh" is made up - Nutgrove being the name given to the area.

That username is already in use. wrote: »

It doesn't matter though, because once you see these native Irish names flashed up on the screen, you will hate them, as you simply do not have any time for the Gaelic language in your modern Anglo existence.

No, I'll be angry that state resources are being pissed down the drain for your whims. I don't hate them - this is a construct you have invented.

That username is already in use. wrote: »

It makes me all the happier to know that some angry Boardsies are so pissed off at seeing Irish on public signage, and there's nothing they can do about it.

Proving my point - you only want this to be awkward and to force your views on others.

L1011

That username is already in use. wrote: »

.

Until then, you're all stuck with An Ghaeilge, the language that you all detest.

Fix the broken record.

We hate ridiculous wastes of public money. You love causing them.

dubhthach

--Mod hat on!--
Folks be nice if you want a pointless discussion about the status of Irish please go to the relevant mind-numbing thread in Politics forum. (all 230 pages of it)

Can we also not have posters calling other posters Fascists.

The thread is suppose to be about Electronic timetables, not about etymology of placenames so please stay on the topic.

--Mod hat off!--

To state my personal preference: I attended an Irish speaking bhunscoil in the 80's so I quite like Irish, however I don't want to see threads derailed with minor nitpicking.

Regarding cost I'm assuming the signs can be set to flick to an alternate list say every 15-30seconds without any great cost --alot of these panels tend to have that functionality, however as has been pointed out alternating between the likes of "Marlborough St" <=> "Sr Marlborough" (Sráid) is abit silly if you ask me. In general I'm not in favour of implementing such a scheme.

Of course one option would be for Dublin Bus to just rename some of their stations to remove the "St." section. As a result Marlbourgh St. -> Marlbourgh etc etc.

LXFlyer

What I find particularly offensive about all of this is not the fact that someone complained about this. Whether or not we agree with the complaint, they are perfectly entitled to do so under the laws of the land as they stand, however daft (or not they may be).

However, I do find it rather nauseating that the said complainant then comes onto a public forum to my mind gloat about this. Most of the posts after the initial one from that individual appear to be of that nature. What is to be gained by doing that? Why not just make the complaint and leave it like that? Behaving in this manner really does not win you any more friends, rather you just get peoples' backs up. I've made plenty of submissions to official bodies, but I don't then go online to boast about it to all and sundry.

However turning to the displays themselves, I would imagine that the displays could be altered to just display route numbers and minutes - that would eliminate the need for translated destinations.

I'm heading to Cardiff at the weekend and will have a look at their electronic displays to see how they handle the two language scenario.

partyatmygaff

That username is already in use. wrote: »

Yeah, just a slight issue with the constitution of Ireland - the country you're from?

Article 8
1. The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.
2. The English language is recognised as a second official language.


Yeah, that kinda sucks, for you. We'd need a REFERENDUM to remove the national language of Ireland (Irish) and make English the first and only language of the State.

Sounds like a good idea for a referendum. Let's re-arrange the order of the languages to reflect the true language of the people of today and not of the people of four hundred years or so ago. While we're at it we should make it that all signage is to be bilingual only in areas where there is a significant majority of people who are fluent Irish speakers. Otherwise they serve no purpose other than to increase costs to an already strained economy.

Is that going to happen? Would the Irish people vote to make English the first and only language of the Republic of Ireland? I think not.

No but they certainly would vote to reduce inefficiencies in public transport spending.

Until then, you're all stuck with An Ghaeilge, the language that you all detest.

It's people like you that come around to gloat at people who fill cause the downfall of the Irish language. It says quite a lot about the state of the language that you need to actually force people to make use of it and then gloat about how the people are obliged to include it on signage.

dubhthach

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Sounds like a good idea for a referendum. Let's re-arrange the order of the languages to reflect the true language of the people of today and not of the people of four hundred years or so ago. While we're at it we should make it that all signage is to be bilingual only in areas where there is a significant majority of people who are fluent Irish speakers. Otherwise they serve no purpose other than to increase costs to an already strained economy.

No but they certainly would vote to reduce inefficiencies in public transport spending.


It's people like you that come around to gloat at people who fill cause the downfall of the Irish language. It says quite a lot about the state of the language that you need to actually force people to make use of it and then gloat about how the people are obliged to include it on signage.

Please keep the thread on topic. If you want to have a political discussion (this applies to:That username is already in use. as well) on the status of the Irish language do so in the relevant forum (Politics/Gaeilge etc.). This forum is for discussions of Infrastructure projects

Otherwise I'm going to start handing out infractions.

LeinsterDub

I know the system is still in the trial phase but will share an experience anyway decided to wait for a 4 after the Leinster match last Friday instead of jumping a taxi as it was only 7 minutes off . Bloody thing was a 4C took me ages to get home, these things need to be 99.9% accurate mistakes like the bus running a different route can't happen if people are to trust the signs

eia340600

<<--SNIP-->> <<--Mode Alert!-->>
I had warned above about disruptive posting on the status of Irish language. If you have an issue with my decision please PM me.
Dubhthach
<<--SNIP-->>

greyed

Jesus grow up lads, there are far more pressing economic concerns than the irish language, go bitch about them!

As far as the displays are concerned, as a computer science student I can tell you that implementing dual langauges is quite trivial and would not involve additional cost.

markpb

greyed wrote: »

As far as the displays are concerned, as a computer science student I can tell you that implementing dual langauges is quite trivial and would not involve additional cost.

You're in for a steep learning curve when you enter the real world of software development Changing the code will take 1% of the time. Agreeing the change request, approving the change request fees, scheduling the work, getting a list of the Irish-ised placenames, QAing the thing, deploying it to production, testing the deployment, etc will all take time and money. The company that own/produce the system are not going to do it for free.

greyed

markpb wrote: »

You're in for a steep learning curve when you enter the real world of software development Changing the code will take 1% of the time. Agreeing the change request, approving the change request fees, scheduling the work, getting a list of the Irish-ised placenames, QAing the thing, deploying it to production, testing the deployment, etc will all take time and money. The company that own/produce the system are not going to do it for free.

Ah ****e, ok :P

dubhthach

markpb wrote: »

You're in for a steep learning curve when you enter the real world of software development Changing the code will take 1% of the time. Agreeing the change request, approving the change request fees, scheduling the work, getting a list of the Irish-ised placenames, QAing the thing, deploying it to production, testing the deployment, etc will all take time and money. The company that own/produce the system are not going to do it for free.

It's even more fun when the company has gone bust and the legacy platform been sold off to third party or just plain not maintained

Johnny Whelan

How much is this costing? And what's the point in knowing when the bus is coming when you're already at the bus stop? You need to know before you leave your house.

markpb

Johnny Whelan wrote: »

How much is this costing? And what's the point in knowing when the bus is coming when you're already at the bus stop? You need to know before you leave your house.

If you get to the bus stop and find there's a 35 minute wait until your next bus, at least you can decide to walk/taxi/get a different bus instead of waiting 30 minutes and then getting a taxi.

Also, studies have shown that people are happy to wait longer if they know how long they'll be waiting. 10 minutes without knowing it will be 10 minutes feels like forever. 10 minutes when you know it's 10 minutes will feel like 5.

etchyed

Johnny Whelan wrote: »

You need to know before you leave your house.

And that's happening too.

stop

Johnny Whelan wrote: »

And what's the point in knowing when the bus is coming when you're already at the bus stop? You need to know before you leave your house.

For anyone who doesn't know already, the beta version of the site can be accessed at http://rtpi.ie however, it appears to only be showing information for stops at which there are signs/poles in place at the moment.

LXFlyer

Johnny Whelan wrote: »

How much is this costing? And what's the point in knowing when the bus is coming when you're already at the bus stop? You need to know before you leave your house.

What about if you're in town or out somewhere already?

This is not mono-directional!

L1011

greyed wrote: »

As far as the displays are concerned, as a computer science student I can tell you that implementing dual langauges is quite trivial and would not involve additional cost.

As someone in a specialised software industry, I can tell you that you never ask a computer scientist to implement anything. You ask someone who specialises in programming, not CS. Methinks you think CS = programming, as said you'll have a horrible shock when you graduate.

And its in no way trivial, depending on the underlying platform it could actually be impossible.

greyed

MYOB wrote: »

As someone in a specialised software industry, I can tell you that you never ask a computer scientist to implement anything. You ask someone who specialises in programming, not CS. Methinks you think CS = programming, as said you'll have a horrible shock when you graduate.

And its in no way trivial, depending on the underlying platform it could actually be impossible.

No, I understand the distinction, I just meant that I am primarily taught programming in my CS course. Im not under any illusions that I will know all I need to when I graduate, I am actually quite terrified in fact I guess I spoke to soon though, I was trying to figure how it might be done in my head but it seems im underestimating the task, forgive my arrogance/ignorance

Jayuu

I'll apologise for the "fascist" remark although I stand by the core of my point. Sorry if this is considered continuing on the argument.

To get back on topic I also have had a couple of misfires with the signage, which are very annoying even if we are still in a trial situation. I journey in the Malahide Road but need to get across town. The only bus that does that on a regular basis for me is the 128. I can also get the 27, 42, 43 into the Talbot Street area. The 27 actually runs right by my door.

One particular example was last Tuesday I hopped on a 27 as one was arriving at my nearest bus stop as I was. I happened to notice at the first information sign we passed that there was a 128 coming along 1 minute behind so I got off at the next stop with information (Artane Roundabout).

A couple of other buses passed over the next few minutes but the 128 was still due in 1 minute. Then it suddenly disappeared off the screen and the next bus (a 27) wasn't due for another 7 minutes. I reckon eventually I lost over 10 minutes because of this. As I say I've had a few other issues like this but this was the most time I lost on one of them.

I also hope they make improvements to the website that you can use to check in advance if your stop doesn't have a real-time sign. Currently you have to zoom in the whole way on a map of Dublin to find your bus stop before you can check for information. This is all very well on a computer but on a mobile with a slow GPRS connection its completely unusable because everytime you click to zoom in it has to reload the map completely. Given that all the bus stops have a unique number it would be much easier if the website just allowed you to type in the number of your bus stop and then returned the relevant information.

I also notice that the transportforireland.ie site says they hope to achieve 90% accuracy which they claim is an international standard. Personally I think that's a little low.

Cathaoirleach

Good luck to the developers if they can ever iron out these issues before everything goes 'live'.

If the information is not 99% reliable, newcomers will go back to rail/taxi/car, and current users will just have a more miserable experience using Dublin Bus. - Nobody will trust these signs.

This system was designed in Germany, was it not? I don't know how this system will ever be able to give an accurate ETA for bus stops in Dublin City's tiny, winding roads and horrendous traffic. Every bus stop would need a different algorithm to come up with a reliable ETA.

Perhaps the signs should indicate how many kilometers away the bus is, and if it's moving or stopped.

White Elephant ahead, folks.

spacetweek

When is the "go-live" date?

L1011

spacetweek wrote: »

When is the "go-live" date?

They are generally turned on a few weeks after they're fitted.

dubhthach

Does anyone have any knowledge of technical aspects of the project? Are they using GPS to track buses etc. Or is it alot more mudane?

bg07

dubhthach wrote: »

Does anyone have any knowledge of technical aspects of the project? Are they using GPS to track buses etc. Or is it alot more mudane?

Here a link to a presentation with a fair bit of technical detail for the system

Link

patrickmooney

I took the 50 from just off Barrow Street to Christchurch area this week, when I got off, it stated the 150 was due. Totally wrong. I stayed at the stop for a few mins and observed 4 other buses stop and move on with the display totally wrong. If it's not going to work correctly, what is the point of installing and displaying wrong information. I welcome and have wanted these for years now, but they have to be right.

monument

Got a list of the locations of the real-time displays from the city council.

patrickmooney wrote: »

I took the 50 from just off Barrow Street to Christchurch area this week, when I got off, it stated the 150 was due. Totally wrong. I stayed at the stop for a few mins and observed 4 other buses stop and move on with the display totally wrong. If it's not going to work correctly, what is the point of installing and displaying wrong information. I welcome and have wanted these for years now, but they have to be right.

It's still in testing. Send them feedback and help them fix it http://www.transportforireland.ie/send-feedback

I wouldn't expect the information to be 100% accurate as the time could vary slightly due to traffic. If it tells me 5 minutes I'll expect 7 or 8. I've often used the website so I can plan when to leave the house. So far so good for me.

I've noticed that the display in Fairview outside Xtra-Vision has been off for the last week or so. The last time I saw it on, the display was garbled on one side.

spacetweek

MYOB wrote: »

They are generally turned on a few weeks after they're fitted.

I mean, when is the full rollout meant to be complete?

usernamegoes

That username is already in use. wrote: »

Yeah, just a slight issue with the constitution of Ireland - the country you're from?

Article 8
1. The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.
2. The English language is recognised as a second official language.


Yeah, that kinda sucks, for you. We'd need a REFERENDUM to remove the national language of Ireland (Irish) and make English the first and only language of the State.

You would have known you were wrong if you had have posted section 3 of Article 8 of the Constitution viz:

3. Provision may, however, be made by law for the exclusive use of either of the said languages for any one or more official purposes, either throughout the State or in any part thereof.

No referendum needed.

dubhthach

--Mod!--

Usernamegoes, I posted a message on this thread saying I didn't want any debate regarding the political status of the Irish language. Mainly as it ends up completely polarising the thread and taking it off topic. If you want to have such a debate please have it in the relevant forums eg. Politics or Gaeilge

You are more then welcome to the infrastructure forum (I see you haven't posted here before) here is a quick reminder about what this forum is about taken from the charter.

What goes into the Infrastructure forum?

Basically, what is being constructed at the moment, planned infrastructure, possible or speculative infrastructure and your own ideas or proposals on what kind of infrastructure could/should be built, both here and abroad.


This includes:

• Transport - road schemes*, rail schemes, airports, seaports, cycle paths etc.
  
• Energy - such as gas pipelines, power stations, wind power, ESB plans etc.
• Telecommunications - fibreoptic rollout, undersea cables etc.
• Water/Seweage - water treatment plants, flood control etc.
• Waste Management - landfills, incinerators etc
• Civic - hospitals, schools, universities, libraries, urban parks, etc.

This forum is specifically for discussing the physical infrastructure itself.

Road discussion now has its own seperate sub-forum found here.

donvito99

Karsini wrote: »

I've noticed that the display in Fairview outside Xtra-Vision has been off for the last week or so. The last time I saw it on, the display was garbled on one side.

In Rathmines, most were on for about a two day period, and all are now off, except for maybe one.

I'd say its probably just a test period and all will be switched on once the entire city wide Phase 1 is completed.

donvito99

donvito99 wrote: »

In Rathmines, most were on for about a two day period, and all are now off, except for maybe one.

I'd say its probably just a test period and all will be switched on once the entire city wide Phase 1 is completed.

Yeah, the one on Annesley Bridge Road is still on. In Ballyfermot there's two active, Ballyfermot Road outbound and Kylemore Road inbound.

woodsy2

I see in one of the links above, to the lists of stops to have displays, that the DCC and Dl-rathdown lists are complete and that the south dublin and Fingal CC lists aren't finished yet. Does anyone know will displays be put on the dublin bus stops in Wicklow, i.e. Bray, Greystones, Enniskerry etc.?

L1011

^^ details of how they're going to handle those, and Meath (Dunboyne, Clonee - can't see Ashbourne's few Nitelink services justifying signs though) and Kildare (Maynooth, Lexlip, Celbridge)

sdanseo

Today on the 29A:

RTPI: Bus Due
Bus: Parked; most likely with its driver eating a sandwich

RTPI: Next bus 20 mins
Bus: Picking up passengers.

:rolleyes:

LeinsterDub

sdonn wrote: »

Today on the 29A:

RTPI: Bus Due
Bus: Parked; most likely with its driver eating a sandwich

RTPI: Next bus 20 mins
Bus: Picking up passengers.

:rolleyes:

Eh, how do you know the one Picking up passengers wasn't the due bus?

donvito99

All signs in Rathmines were operational yesterday.

donvito99

donvito99 wrote: »

All signs in Rathmines were operational yesterday.

Same in Fairview, around 1:30 yesterday I saw someone out with a laptop plugged into one of the signs, it was then operational by the time I passed by again.

sdanseo

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Eh, how do you know the one Picking up passengers wasn't the due bus?

It was, but the sign changed to next bus before the due bus arrived. I reckon it should say "boarding" or something while the bus is at the stop in order to avoid the simple folk getting confused.

I'm being very over critical, I know

LXFlyer

sdonn wrote: »

It was, but the sign changed to next bus before the due bus arrived. I reckon it should say "boarding" or something while the bus is at the stop in order to avoid the simple folk getting confused.

I'm being very over critical, I know

Based on watching this in London, that's exactly what happens. The bus tends to disappear from the screen just before it arrives at the stop.

Cathaoirleach

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O73QKzxmUWs

strassenwo!f

Johnny Whelan wrote: »

How much is this costing? And what's the point in knowing when the bus is coming when you're already at the bus stop? You need to know before you leave your house.

Exactly Johnny. When you're eating the breakfast, having a shower, ironing the shirt, this is the information which is important. Similarly when you're leaving your workplace.

In many cities I've visited or lived in, there is a piece of paper at the bus stop which gives you this information. And then the bus arrives at the stated time, or within a minute or two.

In Dublin, however, the piece of paper tells you what time the bus left the starting point. There must, at this stage, be some amount of corporate knowledge of how long it takes a bus to get from Hawkins St (for example) to Ballsbridge (for example) at different times of the day, yet the piece of paper at the stop in Ballsbridge gives the time the bus leaves Hawkins St and no information about the time it should arrive in Ballsbridge for the journey south.

The paper information at the stop in Ballsbridge (for example) is utterly useless to the bus user.

These electronic boards are progress of a sort, in that if you reach the stop and see that your bus isn't for another 20 minutes, you can fairly safely head into a shop and look at the magazines and newspapers rather than do the usual thing of just faffing around at the bus stop not knowing if or when your bus is going to arrive.

The big step will be for the transport provider - using its acquired knowledge of the traffic and transport situation in Dublin, at different times of the day - to provide a piece of paper at each bus stop which shows what time the bus is due to arrive at that stop, and ensure that the bus arrives at that time (or within a couple of minutes), so that you can plan your departure from home, or your workplace, or your meeting.

These electronic signs are a costly smokescreen which will do nothing to ensure that that scenario ever comes about. Indeed, I think their presence may significantly delay the arrival of that scenario.