Electronic bus stop timetables

Solair

There seems to be quite a large number of poles and wiring being installed for the roll out of these displays on Cork City routes too.

I haven't seen an active sign yet, but they're definitely going in.

http://www.corkcity.ie/services/roadstransportation/roadsnews/mainbody,33703,en.html

L1011

Cool Mo D wrote: »

The Irish Rail signs on the Maynooth line don't work because the current signalling system can't supply up to date train times, it's not as modern as the DART system.

The standard excuse is that the system beyond Glasnevin Junction can't support it - however Phoenix Park has working displays.... clearly they have ways and means around this, but likely can't be arsed fixing the other stations.

Cool Mo D

MYOB wrote: »

The standard excuse is that the system beyond Glasnevin Junction can't support it - however Phoenix Park has working displays.... clearly they have ways and means around this, but likely can't be arsed fixing the other stations.

Does Phoenix Park display timetabled times, or actual real time displays? There is no reason why they all can't at least have the timetables on the displays. I think the line is due to be resignalled when the level crossings are being closed.

Cool Mo D

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Does Phoenix Park display timetabled times, or actual real time displays? There is no reason why they all can't at least have the timetables on the displays. I think the line is due to be resignalled when the level crossings are being closed.

It's the same as those on the Dunboyne line or the one at Adamstown, I think they just show timetables rather than real time info.

LXFlyer

MYOB wrote: »

Cool Mo D wrote: »

The Irish Rail signs on the Maynooth line don't work because the current signalling system can't supply up to date train times, it's not as modern as the DART system.

The standard excuse is that the system beyond Glasnevin Junction can't support it - however Phoenix Park has working displays.... clearly they have ways and means around this, but likely can't be arsed fixing the other stations.

The standard excuse happens to be correct. Until the line is resignalled the displays cannot work.

Phoenix Park displays scheduled times only - it is NOT real time.

loyatemu

lxflyer wrote: »

The standard excuse happens to be correct. Until the line is resignalled the displays cannot work.

the IÉ website has the realtime information on it, this is also available via RSS and various smartphone apps - there's absolutely no reason why they couldn't adapt the displays to get the information from the RSS feed rather than the signalling system, it would cost peanuts.

The displays in Greystones have been in place for over 10 years with nothing displaying on them except "Welcome to Greystones Station" and they don't even say that anymore.

L1011

lxflyer wrote: »

The standard excuse happens to be correct. Until the line is resignalled the displays cannot work.

Phoenix Park displays scheduled times only - it is NOT real time.

Why does the not-very-old signalling system on the line, installed at the time of dualling, not support data that the even older pre-DASH system did in Dublin?

Carawaystick

lxflyer wrote: »

The standard excuse happens to be correct. Until the line is resignalled the displays cannot work.

Phoenix Park displays scheduled times only - it is NOT real time.

How do the tram and bus displays get their information? Why not use a similar system for the train displays?

The trains can display the distance to the next station to within 100m

Or even write an android app to send position/speed to the displays from a phone the driver can place in the cab

LXFlyer

loyatemu wrote: »

the IÉ website has the realtime information on it, this is also available via RSS and various smartphone apps - there's absolutely no reason why they couldn't adapt the displays to get the information from the RSS feed rather than the signalling system, it would cost peanuts.

The displays in Greystones have been in place for over 10 years with nothing displaying on them except "Welcome to Greystones Station" and they don't even say that anymore.

MYOB wrote: »

Why does the not-very-old signalling system on the line, installed at the time of dualling, not support data that the even older pre-DASH system did in Dublin?

Carawaystick wrote: »

How do the tram and bus displays get their information? Why not use a similar system for the train displays?

The trains can display the distance to the next station to within 100m

Or even write an android app to send position/speed to the displays from a phone the driver can place in the cab

The website does have realtime info on it but is far from complete. The following sections have no or limited information:

• Hazelhatch - Heuston Line
• Athlone - Westport/Ballina Line
• Cork Station
• Cork - Cobh/Midleton Line
• Mallow - Tralee Line
• Ballybrophy - Limerick Line
• Limerick - Ennis Line
• Athy - Waterford Line
• Limerick Junction - Waterford Line
• Greystones - Rosslare Line
• Drogheda - Belfast Line
• Drumcondra - Sligo Line

The last one is the section discussed above.

The displays were installed on the Maynooth line and at Greystones on the premise that funding for the resignalling was going to be provided shortly afterwards. However, the funding was then withheld by the Department of Transport (similar to Dublin Bus GPS control being delayed due to DoT funding being withheld) and we were left with the situation that we have now.

The line between Drumcondra and Maynooth/M3 Parkway is controlled from Clonsilla signal cabin (the building beside the level crossing cabin) and is not controlled by CTC. Hence the lack of real time information.

However, I have seen some discussions online that suggest IE are looking at fitting GPS equipment onto the fleet, which should then facilitate all the suggestions above, as an interim solution until the line is resignalled. I can't see anything on the etenders website to suggest that this is happening however.

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

However, I have seen some discussions online that suggest IE are looking at fitting GPS equipment onto the fleet, which should then facilitate all the suggestions above, as an interim solution until the line is resignalled. I can't see anything on the etenders website to suggest that this is happening however.

I was just about to suggest that. Basically the same system currently being rolled out on Dublin Bus.

GPS unit with inertial and speed sensors with a 3G/GPRS connection back to base which in turn communicates via 3G/GPRS to the displays.

Obviously not good enough for signalling safety purposes, but certainly good enough for arrivals data.

Wouldn't cost much, hell most of us have a form of this tech in our pockets (smart phone).

L1011

...this still doesn't explain why IE were so remiss as to not fit the kit that clearly the central CTC had when they resignalled the line in the 1990s...

LXFlyer

It boiled down to funding from government at the time (or lack of it), as most capital projects have done.

Solair

I thought this thread was about electronic BUS timetable displays, not trains!

dowlingm

Can someone explain to me why rtpi.ie needs a ticker on the top of the bleedin' page to tell me about the HIQA criticising fostering in Dublin????

Wild Bill

Solair wrote: »

I thought this thread was about electronic BUS timetable displays, not trains!

Well spotted! We are easily distracted around here.

Are new displays still being installed? Stop 614 (Fairview footbridge inbound) has had the pole installed for months now and still no display on it yet.

LXFlyer

Yep there's still new ones appearing - I'd just say you'll have to be patient!

Wild Bill

Karsini wrote: »

Are new displays still being installed? Stop 614 (Fairview footbridge inbound) has had the pole installed for months now and still no display on it yet.

There are 5,000 Dublin bus stops and 450 of them are to get roadside electronic timetables.

According to the website the full 450 will be operational before the end of the year.

That appears to be the plan anyway.

Saw something today which might be a blip but who knows...

As you probably know the 20B bowed out yesterday, replaced with an extended 14. Saw AV327 on the 14 today so must still be running from Donnybrook. The RTPI displays in Fairview didn't show the 14s. Have heard similar reports of other Donnybrook routes not appearing on the displays either.

BrianD

I presume that each new route has to be programmed into the system? The extended 14 would be a new route as far the system is concerned. I also recall that not all depots are covered by the system yet - could that be the reason?

paddyandy

Great idea they are.

teol

In the central city centre bus stops, Aston Quay for example, it is very annoying seeing a real time display that only serves the the one bus stop. Even though the they're might be 2 or 3 different bus stops right beside each other. It seems an awful waste of resources.

teol

teol wrote: »

In the central city centre bus stops, Aston Quay for example, it is very annoying seeing a real time display that only serves the the one bus stop. Even though the they're might be 2 or 3 different bus stops right beside each other. It seems an awful waste of resources.

There's also displays on some stops that are currently set-down only stops (outside the Central Bank for example). Unless they're changed to regular stops then this is as wasteful as you can get.

LXFlyer

Karsini wrote: »

There's also displays on some stops that are currently set-down only stops (outside the Central Bank for example). Unless they're changed to regular stops then this is as wasteful as you can get.

Given that the 78a and 40 are to merge and the 13 and 51 are to merge I would imagine this stop will switch to being a normal stop.

A little bit of advance planning perhaps?

BrianD

BrianD wrote: »

I presume that each new route has to be programmed into the system? The extended 14 would be a new route as far the system is concerned. I also recall that not all depots are covered by the system yet - could that be the reason?

Saw something different this morning. AV113 was on the 14, this was a regular bus on the 20B along with the others in the 109-115 range. The displays did show this 14. In fact, any 14 I saw today was a Summerhill bus. So I can only guess that the route utilises buses from both garages.

Jayuu

The new 14 route was being displayed on the stop at Donneycarney Church this morning.

starviewadams

Still no sign of them out in Clondalkin,that's if they're going to give us any at all!

markpb

starviewadams wrote: »

Still no sign of them out in Clondalkin,that's if they're going to give us any at all!

The initial pilot is between the NTA and DCC so anyone living in the other three counties won't aee signs until a later phase.

LXFlyer

Karsini wrote: »

BrianD wrote: »

I presume that each new route has to be programmed into the system? The extended 14 would be a new route as far the system is concerned. I also recall that not all depots are covered by the system yet - could that be the reason?

Saw something different this morning. AV113 was on the 14, this was a regular bus on the 20B along with the others in the 109-115 range. The displays did show this 14. In fact, any 14 I saw today was a Summerhill bus. So I can only guess that the route utilises buses from both garages.

Correct - the 14 is now split between Donnybrook and Summerhill.

The same will apply to the other merged routes when they are implemented.

LXFlyer

markpb wrote: »

starviewadams wrote: »

Still no sign of them out in Clondalkin,that's if they're going to give us any at all!

The initial pilot is between the NTA and DCC so anyone living in the other three counties won't aee signs until a later phase.

Incorrect. DCC are co-ordinating the rollout across the entire greater Dublin area.

Some poles have started to be erected in the DLR CoCo area.

I wouldn't be too concerned about the fact that no displays have appeared in Clondalkin yet - they are not even half way through erecting them yet.

As I said above - patience!!

Wild Bill

lxflyer wrote: »

Incorrect. DCC are co-ordinating the rollout across the entire greater Dublin area.
Some poles have started to be erected in the DLR CoCo area.

There is one already working outside Dun Laoghaire DART station. I think it may be the only one currently live in DLR.

Carawaystick

Why are the NATIONAL transport authority letting Dublin corpo do this? When the system is rolled out to other parts of the country, are they gonna get the corpo to do that too?

LXFlyer

DCC were involved in this before the NTA even came into existence and were the body that issued the tender for the equipment in April of 2010.

http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=APR147815

The reason being that the DoT wanted an independent body to co-ordinate the system so that it could encompass public and private operators.

http://www.dublincity.ie/RoadsandTraffic/Pages/Roads.aspx

Real Time Passenger Information Service (RTPI)
Real time passenger information was launched on Friday 11th February 2011 for bus customers in Dublin. On-Street Display Signs showing the arrival time of the next bus are being installed at various bus stops across the capital.

The project is being delivered by Dublin City Council, on behalf of the National Transport Authority. Dublin City Council are installing the on-street display signs that will show the expected arrival times of the next number of buses. Larger display units are envisaged for key interchanges such as Connolly, Heuston and Pearse railway stations.

Open technology is behind the system, meaning private operators with suitable AVL systems will be able to feed in bus time data along with Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann. As an independent body, Dublin City Council will be hosting technology platform for the web service, the SMS service, and for the service/network infrastructure for communications to the On-Street Displays. All four local areas in the Greater Dublin Area are covered and it is also planned to provide the services to other cities such as Cork, Waterford, Limerick and Galway.

This new service is welcomed by bus customers and is in line with the City Council and the County Council’s plans for promoting sustainable transport. To send your feedback on the service and for more information visit www.transportforireland.ie

monument

Carawaystick wrote: »

Why are the NATIONAL transport authority letting Dublin corpo do this? When the system is rolled out to other parts of the country, are they gonna get the corpo to do that too?

DCC does a few things on behalf of other councils in the GDA -- water supply, the planned incinerator, and they used to have the QBN office under their wing before it was moved to the NTA.

thomasj

according to varadkar: (posted july 21st)

These signs are already in place across the city centre and have proved very popular, and very useful. Contracts will be signed next month to install them throughout Fingal, including Dublin 15, and the signs should be in place by the end of the year

http://www.leovaradkar.ie/?p=1368

Wild Bill

thomasj wrote: »

according to varadkar: (posted july 21st)



http://www.leovaradkar.ie/?p=1368

I wonder at the effectiveness of this policy of putting the real-time signs in the City Centre and other major centres like Dun Laoghaire centre etc.

Before the recent arrival of the luas, we here in Sandyford (south of the Industrial Estate) had a variety of low-frequency buses criss-crossing the area in various directions.

The 44 and 44b; the 63; the bizarre one service per day 114s 115s 117s 118s (can't remember the exact details) and the new 47.

Even before luas arrived you could see these behemoths lumbering the roads and lane-ways of the area all day, all empty bar a few half-filled peak-hour runs. The cost of driving this brand-new double deckers around empty must be humongous.

Why does nobody use them? Because their timing isn't very reliable, and while there are many routes each on it's own is low-frequency. So you could pop along to the local 44 stop and wait.

If there weren't many people there you'd find folk anxiously asking "did it leave early" - 'cos the next would be in half an hour - late for work again! Sometimes there was a considerable number at a stop and you'd discover there hadn't been a bus for 45 minutes. Why? When was one coming?

You wait, or wander off.

Then they opened the 46A bus lane down on the N11 in 1999.
It was as the mother of all bus services!

Folk abandoned the buses up here and drove down to the N11 instead; causing amazing traffic congestion; and cars abandoned in housing estates bordering the N11, to the ire of thousands of residents.

So we got the 46A packed to the rafters coming every 3 minutes and since 2004 the luas at Sandyfird IE; all reached by car while the huge double-deckers rumbled around empty, as they still do.

And why? Because if I stand a the local 44 bus-stop I'm taking part in a lottery - I might get lucky, or not. I quit playing that game back in '99. As I drive past the few stalwarts still waiting for a 44 in the rain I realise that if they had cars they'd not be standing there either!

Surely the real-time signs at stops with a few low-frequency routes would get more folk out of their cars than any number in O'Connel Street?

markpb

Wild Bill wrote: »

I wonder at the effectiveness of this policy of putting the real-time signs in the City Centre and other major centres like Dun Laoghaire centre etc.

I guess there are two sides to it. The displays in the city centre are more visible to the public and will be used by more people. Displays in the suburbs would be more useful to individual customers but attract less publicity. People will say that the info will be available by SMS or online for all stops but that's not really point (of what I'm saying).

Of course, RTIS in the suburbs will just expose how poor the bus service is. When integrated ticketing comes in, DB need to prune the hell out of a lot of suburban bus routes and start proving Luas and Dart feeders. The 44 is a great example - it needlessly follows the Green Luas line for 2/3 of it's journey.

monument

Good points Wild Bill, and I see your logic, but the low-frequency buses (as well as mid-frequency ones) are also in the city centre and other centres, where you also have larger amounts of people.

Wild Bill

markpb wrote: »

The 44 is a great example - it needlessly follows the Green Luas line for 2/3 of it's journey.

In fact it pointlessly follows the luas route nowadays, 'cos now nobody uses it!

Why wait for half and hour for an unreliable bus when you can get a 10 minute interval tram that tells you when it's coming and arrives on the dot?

(Unless you live in Stepaside or Kilternan or Enniskerry of course; then it's the 44 or drive.

90% drive!

LXFlyer

Quite a few people still use the 44 in fact, despite what you're claiming - any of the 44s that I see generally have reasonable loadings.

The plan as part of the DB network direct project is that it will have a clockface hourly timetable going forward integrated with the 61 between Dundrum and the city centre to give a half-hourly service throughout the day on that section of the route which people asked for apparently during the consultations!!

Developing clockface frequencies is one way of improving the attractiveness of the bus - it will appear at about the same minutes past each hour.

To be fair the frequency of the 44 was reduced post-LUAS introduction as was the now defunct 48a (replaced by the new 61).

markpb

lxflyer wrote: »

Quite a few people still use the 44 in fact, despite what you're claiming - any of the 44s that I see generally have reasonable loadings. [...] it will have a clockface hourly timetable going forward integrated with the 61 between Dundrum and the city centre

My problem isn't the number of people using it, it's the state paying RPA and Dublin Bus to carry passengers on the same corridor. If DB are claiming that money is tight and routes need to be cut, the first routes to be cut should be those that duplicate rail routes and the buses and drivers redeployed to serve as rail feeders so the system as a whole is more efficient.

In the past, it wasn't feasible to do this properly because of the lack of integrated ticketing but in a few months, there should be no problem.

The 61 (and city centre to Gallops section of the 44) seems like a great way to waste money - at best a 30 minute wait for a bus service when there's a 5/10 minute tram service along the same route. It doesn't matter what people in the area asked for, the NTA should not be approving funding for this route.

LXFlyer

markpb wrote: »

My problem isn't the number of people using it, it's the state paying RPA and Dublin Bus to carry passengers on the same corridor. If DB are claiming that money is tight and routes need to be cut, the first routes to be cut should be those that duplicate rail routes and the buses and drivers redeployed to serve as rail feeders so the system as a whole is more efficient.

In the past, it wasn't feasible to do this properly because of the lack of integrated ticketing but in a few months, there should be no problem.

The 61 (and city centre to Gallops section of the 44) seems like a great way to waste money - at best a 30 minute wait for a bus service when there's a 5/10 minute tram service along the same route. It doesn't matter what people in the area asked for, the NTA should not be approving funding for this route.

I don't fully agree - there is a sizeable elderly population along the route that cannot walk to the LUAS and do need a bus service.

I see quite a few people travelling to/from the Eglinton Road area going south and that is not served by LUAS.
And if the timetable is clockface they will not be waiting as they'll know that the buses go at about the same minutes past each hour!

Wild Bill

lxflyer wrote: »

I don't fully agree - there is a sizeable elderly population along the route that cannot walk to the LUAS and do need a bus service.

I see quite a few people travelling to/from the Eglinton Road area going south and that is not served by LUAS.
And if the timetable is clockface they will not be waiting as they'll know that the buses go at about the same minutes past each hour!

I'm only talking about the 44 around Sandyford - around here the loads are tiny off-peak. Not unusual to see one completely empty (bar the driver).

As for reliability - been there. Waited for the bus!

markpb

lxflyer wrote: »

I don't fully agree - there is a sizeable elderly population along the route that cannot walk to the LUAS and do need a bus service.

That's fair enough but if DB are spending money on quiet routes for people who aren't paying for them, it means less money for routes which could carry more passengers and fare paying passengers. It's making their focus public transport instead of mass transport which might be philanthropic but it's not going to help them cut costs and attract new customers.

Also, I didn't suggest that they'd have to walk, the new and improved feeder bus would bring them the short distance to the nearest Luas stop instead of meandering along the Luas line.

LXFlyer

markpb wrote: »

lxflyer wrote: »

I don't fully agree - there is a sizeable elderly population along the route that cannot walk to the LUAS and do need a bus service.

That's fair enough but if DB are spending money on quiet routes for people who aren't paying for them, it means less money for routes which could carry more passengers and fare paying passengers. It's making their focus public transport instead of mass transport which might be philanthropic but it's not going to help them cut costs and attract new customers.

Also, I didn't suggest that they'd have to walk, the new and improved feeder bus would bring them the short distance to the nearest Luas stop instead of meandering along the Luas line.

I'm not sure where you are talking about Mark - I'm talking particularly about Dundrum to the city where there is a reasonably large number of elderly customers, and also areas not served by LUAS such as the area east of Milltown village.

There is no point in suggesting feeder buses along here as most LUAS stops between Dundrum and the city are inaccessible to buses.

The point is that not everyone is going into town or near the LUAS stops, and not all of the route is near the LUAS. There is a balance to be struck here and I think what DB have planned is doing just that. DB have a responsibility to provide both public and mass transport and I would hate to see a situation where they don't. This is a route where demand does exist and it is being recast (with less resources) in a way that still provides an acceptable service.

Where there clearly was not a need was along the unique section of the 14a route and those resources have now been redeployed elsewhere.

LXFlyer

Wild Bill wrote: »

lxflyer wrote: »

I don't fully agree - there is a sizeable elderly population along the route that cannot walk to the LUAS and do need a bus service.

I see quite a few people travelling to/from the Eglinton Road area going south and that is not served by LUAS.
And if the timetable is clockface they will not be waiting as they'll know that the buses go at about the same minutes past each hour!

I'm only talking about the 44 around Sandyford - around here the loads are tiny off-peak. Not unusual to see one completely empty (bar the driver).

As for reliability - been there. Waited for the bus!

That's where the text and online versions of RTPI come into play and you can check the status of the service at your stop if there is no on-street display.

LXFlyer

Incidentally what I would do with the 44 is remove the section along Ballyogan Road and into Ballyogan Estate where it really is pointless now, and have it operate directly along Kilgobbin Road instead.

The 44 is to be cut in terms of resources from 40/45 minutes frequency to 60 minutes in due course.

listermint

The use of the smartphone is increasing daily, So why do they not just concentrate their efforts on providing a live daily feed of GPS data to Applications developers. The continued pursuit of the timing system is only slowing down the project and has a huge cost, where as upkeep of a Live Data Feed would be the most minimal cost possible.

Ive seen and used some of the Apps available and they are fantastic but the inconsistency of live data from DB is appalling. Where is the common sense in this project. Its looks like an obvious one to increase customer numbers....

LXFlyer

listermint wrote: »

The use of the smartphone is increasing daily, So why do they not just concentrate their efforts on providing a live daily feed of GPS data to Applications developers. The continued pursuit of the timing system is only slowing down the project and has a huge cost, where as upkeep of a Live Data Feed would be the most minimal cost possible.

Ive seen and used some of the Apps available and they are fantastic but the inconsistency of live data from DB is appalling. Where is the common sense in this project. Its looks like an obvious one to increase customer numbers....

I do think that the two go in tandem - you need both on street displays and the text/online facilities.

The vast majority of people do not have smart phones, particularly older people, and I think for the bus to become attractive you need to provide both.

The estimated journey times are (as I understand it) being refined as feedback comes in from the displays/public, and experience with AVLC, but in certain cases you cannot legislate for events such as unexpected traffic congestion.

Incidentally it is rather interesting to note that London does not provide online/text information but only on-street!

markpb

lxflyer wrote: »

The 44 is to be cut in terms of resources from 40/45 minutes frequency to 60 minutes in due course.

What's the point in running the bus at all? With a half hour frequency, it's not going to attract many customers and with a better frequency, it'll be a bigger waste of money.

lxflyer wrote: »

Incidentally it is rather interesting to note that London does not provide online/text information but only on-street!

Actually, they do but I totally agree with you, providing the information online is not good enough for the vast majority of customers. Less than 20% of the population have smartphones. Most of the rest have regular phones but expecting them to pay to send text messages to find out when their bus is coming is unacceptable.