Electronic bus stop timetables

Jayuu

Lets get real here. The Transport for Ireland site has been active for a long while now and all it has ever had on it is four tabs about the Real Time Information System.

If this is to become the main hub for transport information they could at least have links to Bus Eireann, Irish Rail and Dublin Bus timetables in the short term.

What's even more crazy about this site is that under the "Future Plans" section it has a preview image of the RTPI site but not a link to the actual active site! That's just ridiculous.

dubhthach

Noticed the sign outside Tesco Merrion is up and running now. What's the scheduled roll out of these does anyone know?

DjFlin

I saw one going up outside Liffey Valley today. And another in Lucan, down by CBS. Have yet to see any around Leixlip.

L1011

DjFlin wrote: »

I saw one going up outside Liffey Valley today. And another in Lucan, down by CBS. Have yet to see any around Leixlip.

More than half a decade too late to be of any use to me to see if I have time to run in to Molloys before the bus comes :mad:

That's a stop that the sign will be fairly appreciated on.

DjFlin

MYOB wrote: »

More than half a decade too late to be of any use to me to see if I have time to run in to Molloys before the bus comes :mad:

That's a stop that the sign will be fairly appreciated on.

Molloys, one of the last great newsagents. Oh the sweets they sold :rolleyes:

bg07

It's planned to launch the webpage in the next few weeks
Link

Wild Bill

DjFlin wrote: »

Molloys, one of the last great newsagents. Oh the sweets they sold :rolleyes:

Another Molloys newsagents! There was one at the bus stop at the top on Bray Main St on the towards-Greystones side; great place for tea and a bun while waiting for the 45 to the Boghall Rd.

Sweet, sweet memories.....of long, long waits:rolleyes:

strassenwo!f

I was in Dublin for the last couple of weeks and, overall, the electronic signs seem to be working well.

Any word on how Dublin Bus are progressing with the printed timetables for each stop, showing the arrival times at the particular stop? They should be even easier to produce now, with all the information coming from the electronic signs.

One thing - unrelated to the electronic signs - which surprised me on my visit was the continued large number of out of service buses. For example, on the second day of my visit, I went to the no.3 bus stop outside Clery's on O'Connell Street to go to Irishtown. I arrived at the stop at 1655 and the first five (yes, 5) buses passing were "As Seirbhis". There was then a working bus followed by two further As Seirbhis buses. Why there should be such a large proportion of out of service buses travelling along the country's busiest street at the start of rush hour, with the bus stops packed, was a mystery. Isn't this the best time to use them?

Generally, though, I was (as usual) impressed with the service provided by DB. In what is not an easy city to negotiate, those drivers do a pretty good job.

LXFlyer

I suspect that at the moment the main drive is to implement the Network Direct changes. Once that is completed (probably early in the new year) the next big project will be a major overhaul of information such as maps, timetables etc. Given the frequency of changes right now (virtually every fortnight) any such information would be rendered out of date fairly quickly.

Wild Bill

Anyone know when we will be able to get the time of arrival at our local bus-stop on our phones?

Like, when will the next #47 arrive at the stop up the road? - rather than the fairly useless information of when it was due to leave the terminus.

LXFlyer

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/News-Centre/Travel-News/Bus-Stop-Number-Campaign/

Stevek101

http://www.dublinbus.ie/rtpi/ has been working for a day or so now.

loyatemu

Stevek101 wrote: »

http://www.dublinbus.ie/rtpi/ has been working for a day or so now.

that site seems to have information that rtpi.ie does not (eg stops in North Wicklow are live on the dublin bus site, but not on the RTPI site). whats the story there, are they not operating off the same database?

Stevek101

It seems to be using estimates for the stops that are not active yet.

loyatemu

loyatemu wrote: »

that site seems to have information that rtpi.ie does not (eg stops in North Wicklow are live on the dublin bus site, but not on the RTPI site). whats the story there, are they not operating off the same database?

Yep, stop 1515 is live on dublinbus.ie and isn't on rtpi.ie

KD345

strassenwo!f wrote: »

For example, on the second day of my visit, I went to the no.3 bus stop outside Clery's on O'Connell Street to go to Irishtown. I arrived at the stop at 1655 and the first five (yes, 5) buses passing were "As Seirbhis". There was then a working bus followed by two further As Seirbhis buses. Why there should be such a large proportion of out of service buses travelling along the country's busiest street at the start of rush hour, with the bus stops packed, was a mystery. Isn't this the best time to use them?

Judging by the time you mention, I would guess these buses were getting in position to begin their peak time duty and were heading to their terminus. Between 4.30 and 6pm a lot of buses begin service at Belfield/Waterloo Road and Baggot Street and then work in service to areas like Swords/Lucan/Maynooth/Blanchardstown. These buses work out of service from the depot and then start service.

LXFlyer

Stevek101 wrote: »

http://www.dublinbus.ie/rtpi/ has been working for a day or so now.

Not officially though - it's due to be launched this week.

Wild Bill

This needs some work!

Stop 7415 - said (@ 07.35)
#47 due at 07.42
#118 at 08.01
#47 at 08.12

Then at 07.37 the first bus was gone and it merely said

#118 at 08.01
#47 at 08.12

Bit of a downer arriving 5 minutes early at stop to find the bus gone

Wild Bill

The website says of stop 7415 "expect delays" while the ETA of the #118 had just been brought forward to 07.55.

Six minutes quicker thanks to the delays!

alie

KC61 wrote: »

Jayuu wrote: »

As chance would happen I ended up at the Donneycarney bus stop yesterday waiting for a 128 so I had a chance to see it in action. The times come down to "1min" and then say "Due" as the bus in its final approach. This will be handy when you can't see far up the road.

It seemed to be fairly accurate although when I arrived it told me a 128 was due. Nearly a minute later this changed back to "2mins" and then counted down but it did predict the arrival accurately at that stage. I also did notice other times move upwards by a minute as they were recalculated. There was also a 20B which passed by but didn't have to stop. It was around 20 seconds before it disappeared off the list.

Clearly some more tweaking on time calculations is going to be required although given the unpredictable nature of Dublin's traffic there are probably always going to be inaccuracies. However I think its a great addition to the network and I can't wait to see more of them.

I think that you would have to allow a margin of error of a minute or two to allow for the vagaries of traffic, traffic lights changing to red etc.

I saw some in rathmines and there are pole mountings in Rathfarnham too.

Condatis

Several times while waiting for the #79 on Aston Quay the arrival time showed that a bus expected in, for example, five minutes.

That was in accordance with the printed timetable – but then that bus disappeared off the display with the information for the next one perhaps 30 minutes later.

Cool Mo D

Condatis wrote: »

Several times while waiting for the #79 on Aston Quay the arrival time showed that a bus expected in, for example, five minutes.

That was in accordance with the printed timetable – but then that bus disappeared off the display with the information for the next one perhaps 30 minutes later.

I've seen that happen at other terminus stops, where the screen only shows the timetable information, and the bus drops off the screen a minute or so after it's due, but the bus still turns up a few minutes later.

padrepio

its probably been mentioned before but could they not get some software engineer students to develop an application that would track all public transport vehicles in the country. Surely with RFID tags this is possible? charge people 3 or 4 euro to download it to their smart phone and the need for an electronic timetable at each stop would soon disappear?

markpb

padrepio wrote: »

its probably been mentioned before but could they not get some software engineer students to develop an application that would track all public transport vehicles in the country. Surely with RFID tags this is possible? charge people 3 or 4 euro to download it to their smart phone and the need for an electronic timetable at each stop would soon disappear?

All Bus Eireann and Dublin Bus buses are (now) fitted with GPS/radio systems to track their location. Dart and Luas are tracked using systems built into the tracks/signalling.

RFID is used for close-proximity radio messages, around 5-10cm at most. There's no easy way to use RFID to track buses - you'd need something strong than RFID and a network of transponders fitted all across the city/country with the associated power and network infrastructure.

bk

markpb wrote: »

RFID is used for close-proximity radio messages, around 5-10cm at most. There's no easy way to use RFID to track buses - you'd need something strong than RFID and a network of transponders fitted all across the city/country with the associated power and network infrastructure.

What padrepio probably meant is if you had an RFID tag at each bus stop and a RFID (NFC) capable smart phone, then by simply moving the smart phone over the RFID tag, the smart phone automatically displays the arrival times for that stop.

It is certainly possible, unfortunately most smart phones can't read RFID tags today, but hopefully that will change in the next 5 years making this possible.

markpb

bk wrote: »

What padrepio probably meant is if you had an RFID tag at each bus stop and a RFID (NFC) capable smart phone, then by simply moving the smart phone over the RFID tag, the smart phone automatically displays the arrival times for that stop.

It is certainly possible, unfortunately most smart phones can't read RFID tags today, but hopefully that will change in the next 5 years making this possible.

Ah yeah, sorry padrepio, I misunderstood.

padrepio

markpb wrote: »

Ah yeah, sorry padrepio, I misunderstood.

no problem. I wouldnt be up to speed on the technology so thanks to bk for explaining how it could be possible in future.

Even with google maps and GPS you would think some means of tracking vehicles is available today.

On the RFID tags, company I work with have implemented solutions mainly in airports, shopping centres, football stadiums for parents worried about their kids going missing. I know it's a closed environment but hopefully the technology isnt too far off that it could be implemented in a small country like ireland.

Jesus Wept

Electronic signs - good.
Fewer and fewer bus and routes - not good. I'd be quicker walking to town a lot of the time.

bk

padrepio wrote: »

Even with google maps and GPS you would think some means of tracking vehicles is available today.

It already is available today, for example:
http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/RTPI/Sources-of-Real-Time-Information/?searchtype=view&searchquery=278

And a couple of apps exist for both iPhone and Android to access and use this info:

http://dublinbuslive.com/ Best viewed on iPhone/Android
http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/dublin-bus/id450455266?mt=8
http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/bus-time-dublin/id456379666?mt=8

However I strongly agree that Dublin Bus and the NTA should be making this data available on Goggle Maps & Transit using the GTFS-Realtime format.

Wild Bill

Well, whatever the system, I can testify it is less than useless forecasting the #47 at stop 7415.

Less than useless 'cos before this you hadn't a clue when the bus will arrive; now you haven't a clue but the simple-minded think they have.

:mad:

LXFlyer

Wild Bill wrote: »

Well, whatever the system, I can testify it is less than useless forecasting the #47 at stop 7415.

Less than useless 'cos before this you hadn't a clue when the bus will arrive; now you haven't a clue but the simple-minded think they have.

:mad:

Looking at it right now it appears to be allowing 7 minutes for the 47 to get there from Belarmine, before the bus departs.

That may be too generous?

Let the NTA know via www.transportforireland.ie as they are responsible for collating all the issues.

Wild Bill

I thought they were tracking the buses using GPS?

markpb

Wild Bill wrote: »

I thought they were tracking the buses using GPS?

They are but GPS tells you where are bus is, not how long it'll take to get somewhere else. To do that, the system uses other data to guess. It could be a pre-programmed timetable, data from other buses in the same area or historical data about that route at that time on previous days.

Wild Bill

Surely if a bus is one stop away from stop #7415 it should be able to figure out it will arrive in two minutes rather than 7 minutes.

How can it be forecasting a bus is due in 5 minutes (and telling smart-phone users that it will arrive in 5 minutes) even as it is leaving the stop?

And why the daft "there may be delays" warning when the problem at #7415 is that they arrive consistently earlier than the "live" system says!

Sorry - but from a customer perspective this is a worthless system. At the very least it should NOT be claiming a bus will not arrive for 5 minutes when it is already just one stop away!

I can go to Bewleys Hotel down the road and watch a map showing the location of every "Blue bus" (Aircoach bus) - it updates every 30 seconds - you can almost see the buses moving.

And that was installed about seven years ago!

bk

Wild Bill it certainly isn't worthless, it seems to work very well on most of the routes and stops I take.

That isn't to say it doesn't have issues and will need tweaking as it goes. I assume they will be storing all the data and over time will feed that back into probabilistic calculations to improve the accuracy of the arrival time.

BTW here is an example where it can go wrong, lets take your example. So the bus leaves the stop before yours and says it will take two minutes, but there is a major junction between the stops. If the bus hits a red light, then it will take 5 minutes, if it hits a green light then just 2 minutes.

So when it leaves the stop before yours, should it display 2 minutes or 5 minutes or 3 minutes?

LFCFan

bk wrote: »

It is certainly possible, unfortunately most smart phones can't read RFID tags today, but hopefully that will change in the next 5 years making this possible.

The Nexus S has NFC (Near Field Communication) built in and I reckon the majority of new smart phone releases, including the iPhone 5 will have it too. Google Wallet was just released for Android that allows using NFC enabled phones to be uses as Tap and Pay credit cards and there's a lot of great stuff in the pipeline for mobile payments and NFC. I can definitely see RFID in smartphones as the next big thing for a lot of functions.

Wild Bill

bk wrote: »

BTW here is an example where it can go wrong, lets take your example. So the bus leaves the stop before yours and says it will take two minutes, but there is a major junction between the stops. If the bus hits a red light, then it will take 5 minutes, if it hits a green light then just 2 minutes.

So when it leaves the stop before yours, should it display 2 minutes or 5 minutes or 3 minutes?

Except that in the real world the bus between Stepaside at that time passes though only one very minor set of lights that never experience delays - yet we still get the "delay" warnings and the inability to forecast from one stop to the next on a clear road within a margin of error of 5 minutes.

As I said; useless. :mad:

LXFlyer

Wild Bill wrote: »

bk wrote: »

BTW here is an example where it can go wrong, lets take your example. So the bus leaves the stop before yours and says it will take two minutes, but there is a major junction between the stops. If the bus hits a red light, then it will take 5 minutes, if it hits a green light then just 2 minutes.

So when it leaves the stop before yours, should it display 2 minutes or 5 minutes or 3 minutes?

Except that in the real world the bus between Stepaside at that time passes though only one very minor set of lights that never experience delays - yet we still get the "delay" warnings and the inability to forecast from one stop to the next on a clear road within a margin of error of 5 minutes.

As I said; useless. :mad:

Well rather than moaning about it here what have you done about it?

Have you let Dublin Bus know via info@dublinbus.ie with specific examples?

With any new system like this there are going to be glitches that need ironing out. Feedback from customers is generally the best source of information to correct them.

Wild Bill

Glitches!

Check http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/RTPI/Sources-of-Real-Time-Information/?searchtype=view&searchquery=7415

Note the delays expected warning!

At 10pm up here the only "delay" that could be caused would be by not getting the driver to leave the terminus on time!

CIE launched this - not my job to fix it. :mad:

Have they ever heard of quality control? If they are using GPS they can easily analyse the actual stop arrivals v. predicted. If they couldn't be bothered then I certainly can't be.
Remember, I don't actually use the #47; it was crap, let me down too often. As the customer it up to CIE if they really want to coax me from the car on rainy nights!

The notion of "customer" seems foreign to CIE (and it's apologists).

And btw; stop 7415 is directly beside the Luas stop. The luas arrives on time, all the time. But then it's (thankfully) not run by CIE.

paulm17781

I missed a bus because of it. The iPhone app told me I had missed the bus, so I walked to a different stop (different route) and saw the bus I had supposedly missed on it's way to the stop I was too far to get back too.

petronius

While I am more of a cyclist than a bus user, I found the Bus timetable display at the stops recently introduced as an excellent service. I know it is years later than they have them in Metro and Tram stations abroad. But in the 12 minutes I had spare I had time to nip over to the shop in belief that the bus wouldn't whizz by and leave me stranded.
Not often I get to say this but well done CIE/Dublin Bus

BrianD

I think people are making an assumption that the RTPI is bible and you can plan your life around it. It's a source of information. It can never be 100% relied on because it is trying to predict the movement of something in the real world. Unless DB vehicles move in laboratory conditions it will never be 100% and I'm surprised people don't grasp this.

Having decided to commute around town by bus on Friday a few things come to mind - an iPhone app isn't enough, a decent mobile site is more important then any Apple/Android app and also Dublin Bus could do with some signage in the City Centre showing where buses depart/arrive.

I also managed to get a 46A that seemed to be invisible to the system. It terminated at Parnell Sq.

loyatemu

took a rare bus journey this evening so tried out RTPI for the first time. Went to catch an 84 in Greystones - the bus was due to depart the terminus (Newcastle) at 2050, and according to RTPI it was due to hit my stop (no. 4295) at 2102. Even on a Sunday evening this is a completely unrealistic running time - you'd be hard pressed to do it non-stop in a car in 12 mins.

So inevitably as soon as 2050 rolled around, RTPI started moving the arrival time of the bus back, a minute at a time, until it finally showed up at 2111.

I know its a work in progress, and RTPI will help Dublin Bus to make more accurate estimates of running times, but in this case (and in the case of the 184 that was running behind it) the initial estimated running time is completely unrealistic (even the static timetable reckons it takes 15 mins from Newcastle to Greystones station) - this makes RTPI not terribly useful for stops close to the terminus.

BrianD

How complex is the software for "learning" these timings?

LXFlyer

loyatemu wrote: »

took a rare bus journey this evening so tried out RTPI for the first time. Went to catch an 84 in Greystones - the bus was due to depart the terminus (Newcastle) at 2050, and according to RTPI it was due to hit my stop (no. 4295) at 2102. Even on a Sunday evening this is a completely unrealistic running time - you'd be hard pressed to do it non-stop in a car in 12 mins.

So inevitably as soon as 2050 rolled around, RTPI started moving the arrival time of the bus back, a minute at a time, until it finally showed up at 2111.

I know its a work in progress, and RTPI will help Dublin Bus to make more accurate estimates of running times, but in this case (and in the case of the 184 that was running behind it) the initial estimated running time is completely unrealistic (even the static timetable reckons it takes 15 mins from Newcastle to Greystones station) - this makes RTPI not terribly useful for stops close to the terminus.

Interestingly, the weekday running time estimate for that stop (looking at the 0930 84 departure this Monday morning) allows it 19 minutes, and 21 minutes for the 184 (0935 departure).

You have a point - I would agree that close to the terminus RTPI does have limited usefulness - far better to go to the stop at the time the bus is due to leave as the data will only update as the bus proceeds along the route.

loyatemu

lxflyer wrote: »

You have a point - I would agree that close to the terminus RTPI does have limited usefulness - far better to go to the stop at the time the bus is due to leave as the data will only update as the bus proceeds along the route.

fair point, the time they have programmed into the system for these 2 routes is clearly off-the-wall wrong. If the paper timetable says 15 minutes (which is itself too optimistic) where on earth are they getting 12 minutes from.

Looking at the same stop this morning they are allowing 13 mins for the 184 to get there from Newtown, again absolutely impossible - that (bizarre) route goes via the Glenview Hotel and Charlesland, a motorbike couldn't do it in 13 mins.

On another topic, the name on that stop on the website is wrong - there should be some link on the site to report obvious errors like this.

LXFlyer

loyatemu wrote: »

fair point, the time they have programmed into the system for these 2 routes is clearly off-the-wall wrong. If the paper timetable says 15 minutes (which is itself too optimistic) where on earth are they getting 12 minutes from.

Looking at the same stop this morning they are allowing 13 mins for the 184 to get there from Newtown, again absolutely impossible - that (bizarre) route goes via the Glenview Hotel and Charlesland, a motorbike couldn't do it in 13 mins.

On another topic, the name on that stop on the website is wrong - there should be some link on the site to report obvious errors like this.

I think you must have looked at a bus that had already departed?

Both the 1035 and 1105 departures are both give 19 minutes to get there?

There is a "contact us" link at the top of every page - full details are there.

loyatemu

lxflyer wrote: »

I think you must have looked at a bus that had already departed?

Both the 1035 and 1105 departures are both give 19 minutes to get there?

hmmm, I thought I was looking at the 1035 and it initially said 1048 arrival, meanwhile the 1005 which had just departed said 1026. Possibly I was looking at an 84

There is a "contact us" link at the top of every page - full details are there.

my experience of the info@dublinbus.ie address is that its a black hole from which nothing emerges. There should be a dedicated contact for RTPI issues, its in their interest to get this right.

Stevek101

loyatemu wrote: »

There should be a dedicated contact for RTPI issues, its in their interest to get this right.

RTPI complains and issues are not dealt with by Dublin Bus. It is managed by the National Transport Authority. Problems can be sent to the dedicated page on Transport for Ireland.

http://www.transportforireland.ie/send-feedback

LXFlyer

Stevek101 wrote: »

RTPI complains and issues are not dealt with by Dublin Bus. It is managed by the National Transport Authority. Problems can be sent to the dedicated page on Transport for Ireland.

http://www.transportforireland.ie/send-feedback

Not quite right.

Issues with the onstreet displays are dealt with by the NTA.

However, issues with the app and online information on the Dublin Bus website are dealt with by Dublin Bus which is where the previous poster got their information.