Electronic bus stop timetables

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

Not quite right.

Issues with the onstreet displays are dealt with by the NTA.

However, issues with the app and online information on the Dublin Bus website are dealt with by Dublin Bus which is where the previous poster got their information.

If the problem is with the time data -- it all comes from one source which is managed by the NTA.

Even for the Dublin Bus site or app go to http://www.transportforireland.ie/send-feedback and click on the relevant option under "What Did You Observe?"

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

If the problem is with the time data -- it all comes from one source which is managed by the NTA.

Even for the Dublin Bus site or app go to http://www.transportforireland.ie/send-feedback and click on the relevant option under "What Did You Observe?"

No - that is not correct.

Who is responsible for this service?
This has been developed by Dublin Bus on behalf of the National Transport Authority. Dublin Bus is responsible for the automatic vehicle location system and the real time arrival predictions for its buses.

The National Transport Authority, established in 2009, has responsibility for contracting and securing the provision of public passenger transport services for the travelling public, including information services. You can visit their website at nationaltransport.ie.

Dublin Bus themselves have asked passengers on the 13 and 220 to submit information to info@dublinbus.ie on their experiences of the real time information (http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/News-Centre/Travel-News/Real-Time-information-on-Routes-13-and-220/)

The NTA are responsible for the on-street signage, but all of the actual predictive times comes from the Dublin Bus AVLC system.

If you look at the Dublin Bus twitter page they are answering queries on the app and the online facility, but refer all queries regarding the on-street displays to the NTA site.

strassenwo!f

Is there any word on how Dublin Bus are progressing with the delivery of timetables which show the time that a bus is due to arrive at a particular stop?

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

No - that is not correct.



Dublin Bus themselves have asked passengers on the 13 and 220 to submit information to info@dublinbus.ie on their experiences of the real time information (http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/News-Centre/Travel-News/Real-Time-information-on-Routes-13-and-220/)

The NTA are responsible for the on-street signage, but all of the actual predictive times comes from the Dublin Bus AVLC system.

If you look at the Dublin Bus twitter page they are answering queries on the app and the online facility, but refer all queries regarding the on-street displays to the NTA site.

From: http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/RTPI/RTPI-Help-Page/#16

Who is responsible for this service?
The Real Time Passenger Information service has been developed by Dublin City Council on behalf of the National Transport Authority. The service is delivered in co-operation with Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann, which is responsible for the roll out of the automatic vehicle location system and the real time arrival predictions for its buses. The service will be launched in other cities across Ireland, and the National Transport Authority is working to ensure that Bus Eireann and other public transport operators are included in the future. Dublin City Council managed the procurement of the signs and software system, and it is also co-ordinating the installation of the signs in the Greater Dublin Area.

The National Transport Authority would like to acknowledge Dublin City Council, who have taken on this role as part of its commitment to existing and new public transport users. The National Transport Authority, established in 2009, has responsibility for contracting and securing the provision of public passenger transport services for the travelling public, including information services. You can visit our website at www.nationaltransport.ie

Also note the NTA logo at the end of the page.

Look, people can send an email to Dublin Bus or fill out a form which the NTA will see -- http://www.transportforireland.ie/send-feedback

I've have dealings with a wide range of public and semi-state bodies, and the NTA in fairness seem better than most, while Dublin Bus is one of the worst. From their general slowness to reply to emails, to getting no reply at all. Or getting a reply but then they never reply to any follow up email.

Then there's things like Dublin Bus sending an email reply which apologise for a driver not stopping for a heavily pregnant woman trying to get to work and promised tickets in a way of saying sorry -- which is all good, until soon afterwards another email from them comes claiming that the bus did stop but they said the wrong date and time compared to what had been provided. And as normal no reply to that email replying to that.

Do they just get to log everything as resolved and moved on or what?

LXFlyer

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Is there any word on how Dublin Bus are progressing with the delivery of timetables which show the time that a bus is due to arrive at a particular stop?

Given that the Network Direct rollout is still ongoing, no. That would be something that will follow on, as schedulers would be focussing on darwing up the new schedules for implementing the ND changes. There are still at least half a dozen more phases to go.

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

From: http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/RTPI/RTPI-Help-Page/#16



Also note the NTA logo at the end of the page.

Look, people can send an email to Dublin Bus or fill out a form which the NTA will see -- http://www.transportforireland.ie/send-feedback

I've have dealings with a wide range of public and semi-state bodies, and the NTA in fairness seem better than most, while Dublin Bus is one of the worst. From their general slowness to reply to emails, to getting no reply at all. Or getting a reply but then they never reply to any follow up email.

Then there's things like Dublin Bus sending an email reply which apologise for a driver not stopping for a heavily pregnant woman trying to get to work and promised tickets in a way of saying sorry -- which is all good, until soon afterwards another email from them comes claiming that the bus did stop but they said the wrong date and time compared to what had been provided. And as normal no reply to that email replying to that.

Do they just get to log everything as resolved and moved on or what?

I don't know but from enquiring of the two bodies involved, I can say that the post that I made above is the case, namely:

The NTA are responsible for the on-street signage and all queries must go through them, while DB are responsible for the app and online information on their website.

The source of all the data is the Dublin Bus AVLC system.

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

I don't know but from enquiring of the two bodies involved, I can say that the post that I made above is the case, namely:

The NTA are responsible for the on-street signage and all queries must go through them, while DB are responsible for the app and online information on their website.

The source of all the data is the Dublin Bus AVLC system.

Regardless, the NTA now has oversight with all public transport information and went to the bother of making an online form where you can report common issues such as:

• Bus did not arrive although the sign said Due
• Bus did not arrive although the web/ app service said it would
• Bus did not arrive although the sms service said it would
• The Bus was more than 3 minutes early or late that it was predicted on the sign
• The Bus was more than 3 minutes early or late that it was predicted on the web or sms or app

As well as any other problem you have by clicking on other. And the NTA are not the ones known to take ages to reply to emails or not reply at all -- that's Dublin Bus who are famous for that.

LXFlyer

Good to see - now hopefully people will be proactive and use the facility rather than moaning about it like in post #340 above.

The more information they collate they more accurate the system will become.

Wild Bill

lxflyer wrote: »

Good to see - now hopefully people will be proactive and use the facility rather than moaning about it like in post #340 above.

The more information they collate they more accurate the system will become.

Well I can report that the system is still rubbish as far as the times at stop 7415 is concerned.

Very misleading rubbish for anyone foolish enough to pay any attention to it.

And they are still running the brain-dead "delays expected" warning for buses that always arrive early :mad:

LXFlyer

The "Delays Expected" wording below the table is an explanation of the "!" icon beside it.

It only applies if the "!" is in the actual row where the bus times are shown.

Well given you have noted that the timings are wrong why don't you make a civic gesture and report it on the web page linked above rather than ranting on and on about it here. There are 7,500 bus stops in Dublin - do you honestly think DB can monitor every single one?

But no you say that it's not your job to do it.

I have to say shame on you - that is the sort of attitude that has the country in the state it is - why not do something that might improve things for everyone?

And before you ask - yes I have done where I've experienced signs being wrong and would do the same with the app/online facility as I think we all have a civic responsiblity in this country to improve things but then again you obviously think differently.

Wild Bill

lxflyer wrote: »

There are 7,500 bus stops in Dublin - do you honestly think DB can monitor every single one?

If they are all tracked by GPS then it's a cinch - for any half-competent business.

I work in the transport industry. I know.

CIE are a bunch of "£$%^&s. :cool:

Solair

There are several Cork City busses that announce

"You are now arriving at Parnell Place Bus Station" at random intervals along the route for no obvious reason.

CIE are generally a complete joke though. It's off-the-shelf technology.
It's kind of like saying you can't manage to get the bus engines working or that you struggle with the concept of a steering wheel.

strassenwo!f

lxflyer wrote: »

To be fair I think that this is exactly what is planned. However it is going to take considerable time to roll out and considering the entire network is being redesigned would be pointless doing right now.

Until earlier this year when the Automatic Vehicle Location and Control (AVLC) system was finally fully rolled out DB controllers/schedulers had no way of knowing how long buses were taking to get from one stop to another or where any bus was at a point in time other than calling a driver over the radio and asking him/her.

Schedules were prepared on the basis of termini and (where applicable) driver handover points only.

The AVLC system will facilitate schedulers in providing accurate information on running times right through the day and will at last allow them to prepare stop specific timetables that will be realistic. That is my understanding of what will ultimately be prepared for every route.

A useful spin-off of the AVLC is the ability to provide RTPI to customers online, on-street and on-mobile. Most other cities do provide this facility already.

This is an entire package - and it would be wrong to look at one area in isolation. Printed timetables are a very important part of it and will remain so.

Initially they have started with providing intermediate times at one or two points along each route under the Network Direct project but as I understand it the plan is to do every stop. As I say though, that is a mammoth task and will take some time to roll out.

Patience!

So, lxflyer, that post of yours was from two-and-a-half years ago.

I'm going to be back in Dublin soon, and will probably be making a considerable number of journeys on Dublin Bus.

What progress should I expect to see re the issue of stop-specific timetables which we were discussing at the time?

Victor

There are timetables like the attached on the NTA journey planner.

The NTA sought tenders for the provision of thousands of bus stops earlier in the year.

AlekSmart

strassenwo!f wrote: »

So, lxflyer, that post of yours was from two-and-a-half years ago.

I'm going to be back in Dublin soon, and will probably be making a considerable number of journeys on Dublin Bus.

What progress should I expect to see re the issue of stop-specific timetables which we were discussing at the time?

The only "progress",if thats what ye want,is that most of the cross-city routes now have CC specific times on the CC Stops.

The RTPI and particularly the Dublin Bus related Android apps have pretty much outflanked the entire timetable issue,with even the ubiquitous "Forren Visiter" now looking up their Galaxies rather than oul hard-copy on a pole...;)

strassenwo!f

Victor wrote: »

There are timetables like the attached on the NTA journey planner.

That's good, and looks like progress. But the information which is really important for people at any one stop is the times that the relevant buses should appear at that stop. Is that ready to go?

The NTA sought tenders for the provision of thousands of bus stops earlier in the year.

What do you mean here? Dublin Bus already has thousands of bus stops. What is needed is not new bus stops, it's relevant information at those stops. Why do the NTA need tenders for this?

LXFlyer

To an extent your question has been answered.

Full timetables have been drawn up as part of the AVLC project, with times for each bus stop. These are available online at www.a-b.ie

These timetables are the control timetables, but they do need some reviewing in some cases.

These are not displayed at individual bus stops, but as Alek says they have been rendered somewhat obsolete by the rollout of RTPI with displays on street at virtually every city centre stop and major ones in the suburbs, along with the Dublin Bus and NTA real time apps.

Frankly timetables these days are more use at or near termini, elsewhere the real time apps and signs really have become the more relevant piece of information.

However, once these full timetables have been fully reviewed, something that has to be done, I would imagine they will be rolled out at bus stops, once the NTA takes over responsibility for the provision of on-street information.

The NTA are taking over ownership of all of the bus stops and are tendering for new stops that will be operator neutral.

strassenwo!f

AlekSmart wrote: »

The only "progress",if thats what ye want,is that most of the cross-city routes now have CC specific times on the CC Stops.

Excellent. That does sound like much-needed progress.

AlekSmart wrote: »

The RTPI and particularly the Dublin Bus related Android apps have pretty much outflanked the entire timetable issue,with even the ubiquitous "Forren Visiter" now looking up their Galaxies rather than oul hard-copy on a pole...;)

While it is a bit disconcerting to read a Dublin Bus employee writing approvingly about "outflanking" the issue of timetables, I don't think the real focus here should be the fardinners.

As was discussed in or around page 12 of this thread, there is a lot to be said for Dubliners knowing what time buses are due to arrive at a particular stop, from the point of view of planning the time to leave the house in the morning, what time to leave the workplace in the evening, etc., without having to resort to a phone. Stop-specific timetables continue to be the main resource for bus users in most cities in continental northern Europe, and Dublin should continue its efforts to emulate that.

lxflyer wrote:

To an extent your question has been answered.

Full timetables have been drawn up as part of the AVLC project, with times for each bus stop. These are available online at www.a-b.ie

Good, they're available online. But for many people, it's just much easier to note down (probably mentally) the times of the buses at their particular stop. Isn't it? And if they're in town (for example) and they notice on Nassau Street that the next 44B isn't for another 45 minutes (on the stop-specific timetable) and is not yet shown on the RTPI yoke, then they can go off, do something else that they need to do, and come back at the appropriate time.

These are not displayed at individual bus stops, but as Alek says they have been rendered somewhat obsolete by the rollout of RTPI with displays on street at virtually every city centre stop and major ones in the suburbs, along with the Dublin Bus and NTA real time apps.

The RTPI thing tells you at what time the next few buses are coming. It doesn't tell (let's say) a pensioner from Kimmage what time to leave home in order to catch the #18 bus which will bring him or her to Ranelagh for a drink with the mates. This passenger can get to the bus stop and be told that it's coming in 20 minutes. If there was a stop-specific timetable, reasonably well adhered-to, as it is in most northern european cities, this passenger could leave home at a later time and waste less time faffing around at the bus stop.

(I know route 18 quite well, and quite frankly the idea that Dublin Bus have persisted for so long with timetables on the route which highlight the departure times from Palmerstown, as if these have any relevance whatsoever for passengers in a place as distant as Kimmage, is a disgrace. Like most other cities, Dublin has traffic, but the 18 has been travelling for decades along that route, yet no better information than the departure time from Palmerstown has been forthcoming. But, hey, don't worry about the past, pensioner, now you can use an app).:(

lxflyer wrote:

Frankly timetables these days are more use at or near termini, elsewhere the real time apps and signs really have become the more relevant piece of information.

Well, of course that's true under the current Dublin Bus arrangement, where stop-specific timetables largely don't exist, so nobody knows what time a particular bus is due to arrive at a particular stop. They only know what time it is supposed to have left its' starting point. Further along the line, nobody knows whether a particular bus is late, very late, early, or whether it even left the starting point.

And, as I have said, real-time apps are not relevant for someone who is planning their day on the night before, as many people are, or who is planning a few hours in advance what time to leave the workplace, as many people do.

lxflyer wrote:

However, once these full timetables have been fully reviewed, something that has to be done, I would imagine they will be rolled out at bus stops, once the NTA takes over responsibility for the provision of on-street information.

If it happens, very good.

lxflyer wrote:

The NTA are taking over ownership of all of the bus stops and are tendering for new stops that will be operator neutral.

Good. It really should not be difficult to have stops which have a board or somesuch for the timetables of all the operators who use that stop, with stop-specific times displayed on the board.

Victor

strassenwo!f wrote: »

What do you mean here? Dublin Bus already has thousands of bus stops. What is needed is not new bus stops, it's relevant information at those stops. Why do the NTA need tenders for this?

Whatever about Dublin Bus, which has the vast majority of stops marked, many other operators don't, even Bus Éireann.

strassenwo!f

lxflyer wrote: »

To be fair I think that this is exactly what is planned. However it is going to take considerable time to roll out and considering the entire network is being redesigned would be pointless doing right now.

Until earlier this year when the Automatic Vehicle Location and Control (AVLC) system was finally fully rolled out DB controllers/schedulers had no way of knowing how long buses were taking to get from one stop to another or where any bus was at a point in time other than calling a driver over the radio and asking him/her.

Schedules were prepared on the basis of termini and (where applicable) driver handover points only.

The AVLC system will facilitate schedulers in providing accurate information on running times right through the day and will at last allow them to prepare stop specific timetables that will be realistic. That is my understanding of what will ultimately be prepared for every route.

A useful spin-off of the AVLC is the ability to provide RTPI to customers online, on-street and on-mobile. Most other cities do provide this facility already.

This is an entire package - and it would be wrong to look at one area in isolation. Printed timetables are a very important part of it and will remain so.

Initially they have started with providing intermediate times at one or two points along each route under the Network Direct project but as I understand it the plan is to do every stop. As I say though, that is a mammoth task and will take some time to roll out.

Patience!

Well, obviously considerable patience is required.

You make very good points, lxflyer, but that was getting on for five and a half years ago.

I was in three cities last week, and used public transport extensively in each: Dublin, Berlin and Szczecin (Poland). The latter two use an electronic timetable and a paper timetable, which is pretty much adhered to.

Dublin continues with the electronic board and a meaningless paper timetable showing the time the bus left the terminus.

As I and others pointed out around pages 11 and 12 of this thread, the paper timetable, when reasonably adhered to, is very useful for many people.

Dublin appears to be no further down the line to producing one, even after what must have been colossal amounts of information going into their system since the RTPI thing was rolled out.