Homeopathic Medicine.. does it work ?

Cavehill Red

pokertalk wrote: »

its also n h s approved with is something

When I was younger Lucozade was NHS approved. And not that long ago, you got Guinness from the blood transfusion board when you donated.
There is strong opposition from actual medics to morons in NHS admin approving nonsense like this. It's notable that they no longer approve training programmes in it for medics. They'll stop funding this bullcrap soon enough, especially with the cuts Britain is undergoing.
I'm glad your mother is in remission by the way. I hope she stays that way. But let's be real, magic water didn't cure her.

blubloblu

pokertalk wrote: »

as i said in my eairler post my mother had cancer and came off her durgs course and went for this alternative medicine and she has not got the cancer anymore. now i dont know much about alternative medicines but cant see how a placebo can cure cancer. if it works then its medicine no????
its also n h s approved with is something

Do you know what homeopathy is? Read the wikipedia article.
Homeopathy consists of diluting tiny amounts of a substance in water to the point where you would need vast quantities of the "remedy" to be able to find even a single molecule of the original solute. How exactly does that cure cancer?

The NHS place it alongside faith healing. http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Homeopathy/Pages/Introduction.aspx

pokertalk

Cavehill Red wrote: »

When I was younger Lucozade was NHS approved. And not that long ago, you got Guinness from the blood transfusion board when you donated.
There is strong opposition from actual medics to morons in NHS admin approving nonsense like this. It's notable that they no longer approve training programmes in it for medics. They'll stop funding this bullcrap soon enough, especially with the cuts Britain is undergoing.
I'm glad your mother is in remission by the way. I hope she stays that way. But let's be real, magic water didn't cure her.

i know where your coming from but what did cure her???
ps will they except a medical card in the shop next time im thristy

Owen

Whispered wrote: »

Can we please call it complementary medicine. It should never be used as an alternative.

Honestly? Thread win as far as I'm concerned.

People will always want to believe utter made up baloney as opposed to medicine in the hopes that it'll cure what 'science doesn't understand'. As long as people view it as complimentary, I've no issue with that. Use the real medicine first, and add on the idealogical stuff like Homeopathy, Reiki, etc afterwards. The real danger is that people see it as a complete alternative to proven, documented, and trusted medicine.

It's like Daragh O' Briain said - people like to believe the myths, someone's Aunt had a headache, they rubbed a cat off their head, and the headache went away. Some people are disposed to believe that instead of taking something like Anadin instead - they want the urban myth to be true, they want some misunderstood mysticism to be true instead.

So, fine. If you want that, belt away with it if it's your own health. But if it's your children, your spouse, or your pets, don't impose your half thought out beliefs on them - allow them the benefit of scientifically researched medicinal advice, and they tack on the other 'solutions' out there. Proper medicine first, secondary medicine after.

blubloblu

pokertalk wrote: »

i know where your coming from but what did cure her???
ps will they except a medical card in the shop next time im thristy

You haven't shared enough details about her case, but maybe the drugs did their job and she needed time to rest and recover. People do beat cancer, and do so without any complementary "medicine". There is nothing to show that the remedy had anything to do with her recovery. Correlation does not imply causation.

pokertalk

blubloblu wrote: »

You haven't shared enough details about her case, but maybe the drugs did their job and she needed time to rest and recover. People do beat cancer, and do so without any complementary "medicine". There is nothing to show that the remedy had anything to do with her recovery. Correlation does not imply causation.

does not disprove either

Owen

I'm sure it doesn't Pokertalk, and fair play to her for recovering. The only thing is that my Brother in Law's Brother is a Professor in Microbiology in one of the Universities here specifically studying how Cancer propogates and methods to arrest that.

I haven't spoken to the guy, but I've read as much of his research as I've been able to understand (Not all of it, but a fair bit of it) - and it's reasonable to say that if she is 100% cured, that drinking water wasn't the cause of it.

Homeopathy is currently NHS funded because they're terrified to cut funding to alternative health in case someone complains on the grounds of balance. Kinda like if 2 people go for a job, a Caucasian with dozens of qualifications, and an African American with none - if they hire the Caucasian, they're could be branded as racist even though they may be well intentioned. Same with Homeopathy. There's absolutely no proof of it's benefits other than hearsay. If you look into it with even the most basic and childish of scientific minds, you'd see there's no way in hell it could possibly work - but for fear of upsetting it's believers, the NHS is effectively blackmailed into continuing to fund it for the interim.

johnthemull

It works like a good nights sleep
or a day on the beach in the sun
or a night in your favorite restaurant
or a fresh morning looking at the sea on the hill
put that into a pill
thats how it works

pokertalk

johnthemull wrote: »

It works like a good nights sleep
or a day on the beach in the sun
or a night in your favorite restaurant
or a fresh morning looking at the sea on the hill
put that into a pill
thats how it works

the sun is used or should i say its properties to cure ilness so maybe another element like water could too. aint water the cure fordeath because without we cant live;)............deep:o

pokertalk

blubloblu wrote: »

Do you know what homeopathy is? Read the wikipedia article.
Homeopathy consists of diluting tiny amounts of a substance in water to the point where you would need vast quantities of the "remedy" to be able to find even a single molecule of the original solute. How exactly does that cure cancer?

The NHS place it alongside faith healing. http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Homeopathy/Pages/Introduction.aspx

no i dont know much juat that my mother used it when she had cancer
what exactly is it that is diluted. plus not to be smart here but wikipedia has as much false info in it as it does true. im not saying i believe im just open minded[no stupid] just open minded.

fourcats

Thanks for that. He has already been checked for infections etc, he just gets over excited! Have also researched at great length methods of 1. how to detect the exact spot that has been sprayed when it is not obviously visable and 2. the problem of getting rid of the smell without repeated washing(which is not always possible). The only small reprieve is that a neutered tom's pee doesnt seem to linger quite as long as an un-nutered one.
Rosemarie

Whispered

I don't understand this post TBH.
This:

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Honestly? Thread win as far as I'm concerned..

seems sarcastic.

Where as this:

PaintDoctor wrote: »

As long as people view it as complimentary, I've no issue with that. Use the real medicine first......The real danger is that people see it as a complete alternative to proven, documented, and trusted medicine.

is saying the exact same thing.

Shenshen

pokertalk wrote: »

no i dont know much juat that my mother used it when she had cancer
what exactly is it that is diluted. plus not to be smart here but wikipedia has as much false info in it as it does true. im not saying i believe im just open minded[no stupid] just open minded.

The substances that get diluted are substances that, taken in a regular dosis, would cause the same symptoms that the patient is displaying.
So many of the substances used are highly poisonous, but since they get diluted down so drastically, you don't really need to worry about it.

The philosophy is that is arsenic will cause you to loose your hair, watered down arsenic will re-grow it, basically.

Rigsby

johnthemull wrote: »

It works like a good nights sleep
or a day on the beach in the sun
or a night in your favorite restaurant
or a fresh morning looking at the sea on the hill
put that into a pill
thats how it works

Sounds good to me so.

DeVore

Every night I go to sleep and every morning the sun comes up. I mean EVERY morning. Clearly my sleep is causing the sun to come up!!

Additionally since as the worlds climate has warmed over the last century, inversely opera attendance has droped.

Maths is a very non intuitive subject!!

DeV.
Ps, why doesn't water store the memory of the poo it's had in it?? Where is a small molecule like h2o storing the memory of much bigger molecules? Why do they have to bash it off a bed of horsehair (true fact)?

Owen

Whispered wrote: »

I don't understand this post TBH.

No sarcasm intended. By saying 'thread win' - I was saying that your post is probably the one people should take note of, and that I thought it was the best post in the thread.

Whispered

Sorry!!

If I disagree with someone IRL I often say "honestly??!?" or "realy?!??!" in a disdainful way while rolling my eyes. :pac:

kylith

pokertalk wrote: »

as i said in my eairler post my mother had cancer and came off her durgs course and went for this alternative medicine and she has not got the cancer anymore. now i dont know much about alternative medicines but cant see how a placebo can cure cancer. if it works then its medicine no????

Cancer sometimes just goes away, regardless of what medication is or is not being taken. It's called spontaneous remission.

pokertalk

kylith wrote: »

Cancer sometimes just goes away, regardless of what medication is or is not being taken. It's called spontaneous remission.

totally understand that but it still does not disprove

pokertalk

DeVore wrote: »

Every night I go to sleep and every morning the sun comes up. I mean EVERY morning. Clearly my sleep is causing the sun to come up!!

Additionally since as the worlds climate has warmed over the last century, inversely opera attendance has droped.

Maths is a very non intuitive subject!!

DeV.
Ps, why doesn't water store the memory of the poo it's had in it?? Where is a small molecule like h2o storing the memory of much bigger molecules? Why do they have to bash it off a bed of horsehair (true fact)?

wtf . bash what of a bed of horsehair

scully74

Rigsby wrote: »

The vet I bring my dog to believes in Homeopathic Medicine as well as conventional medicine. I have no opinions either way on this, but just wanted to get some views or opinions here. I know the basic idea is to kick start the body's natural healing mechanism, but is there any hard evidence that it actually works ?

It turned my dog into a Homeo took ages to straighten him out...never again

DeVore

pokertalk wrote: »

wtf . bash what of a bed of horsehair

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy

Search that page for horsehair.

DeV.

DeVore

DeVore wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy

Search that page for horsehair.

DeV.

Ps, I'm not making this sh!t up, nor is it in dispute by the homeopaths themselves.
Check out this google search and pick your source yourselves....

http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&client=safari&q=homeopathic+potentization+%2Bhorsehair&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

This rabbit hole just keeps on going, lol...

DeV.

The Sweeper

I'm not crazy about homeopathy being referred to as 'complementary medicine' tbh. It should distinctly be identified as homeopathy, to continue to make it distinct from other complementary medicines.

Herbal remedies, for instance, are different to homeopathy and I've had quite some successes with herbal remedies in animals, especially using arnica as an anti-inflammatory.

Earlier in this thread someone identified equissage - that's not homeopathy. That's a hand-held massage machine for horses, and massage generally has a therapeutic effect.

You need to distinguish between complementary medicine (e.g. acupuncture, massage, heat treatments, herbal remedies), herbal remedies based in alcohol (esp flower remedies for relaxation that use an alcohol base - I hold deep suspicions that it's the booze and not the Star of Bethlehem doing all the work) and homeopathy (water).

DeVore

Absolutely. Personally I get acupuncture done on my back and deep tissue massage (not as fun as it sounds!). There is a great deal of science behind both.

Crystals, shakras and auras shouldn't be considered medicine of any kind until they pass the same rigourous investigation.

Homeopathy can treat one medical condition with 100% success. Dehydration.

DeV.

Shenshen

pokertalk wrote: »

totally understand that but it still does not disprove

How do you disprove something that shows no demonstrable effect?

username123

The World Health Organisation has debunked both homeopathy and acupuncture in recent years. Neither has been proven to be anything but placebo effect.

You will find proper references and details to studies carried out in an excellent book called Trick or Treatment by Simon Singh and Edzard Ernst that talks about many different alternative medicines, and factually discusses the types of trials carried out and the evidence to debunk them.

Whispered

The Sweeper wrote: »

You need to distinguish between complementary medicine (e.g. acupuncture, massage, heat treatments...)

I'd consider those mentioned as therapies not medicines and as far as I know they are usually refered to as therapies.

Whether you choose to believe in homeopathy or not, the correct term for it is complementary medicine, the same as herbal remedies. I do understand why you'd want there to be a distinction as you wouldn't want people to assume that because you use one you use the other. There is also a certain stigma to using "complementary" anything.

Maybe this discussion is best suited for another forum? But personally, I've used a complementary therapy with great success on both people (people who would laugh at the thought of it tbh) and animals and have seen other therapies have great results. On the other hand, I've seen various therapists charging an arm and a leg and getting no results. The field is not really policed at all.

crotalus667

pokertalk wrote: »

but cant see how a placebo can cure cancer.

Via the placebo effect (I thought that would have been obvious) on a side note , at curing cancer there is no evidence to suggest the placebo effect is responsible as the rate of remission is the same as spontaneous remission.

pokertalk wrote: »

if it works then its medicine no????

No

pokertalk wrote: »

totally understand that but it still does not disprove

That would be proving a negitive which is scientific folly

The Sweeper wrote: »

I'm not crazy about homeopathy being referred to as 'complementary medicine' tbh. It should distinctly be identified as homeopathy, to continue to make it distinct from other complementary medicines.

ALL OF them should be referred to as complementary therapies

The Sweeper wrote: »

You need to distinguish between complementary medicine (e.g. acupuncture, massage, heat treatments, herbal remedies), herbal remedies based in alcohol (esp flower remedies for relaxation that use an alcohol base - I hold deep suspicions that it's the booze and not the Star of Bethlehem doing all the work) and homeopathy (water).

They are all "therapies" and not medicine

seamus

DeVore wrote: »

Every night I go to sleep and every morning the sun comes up. I mean EVERY morning. Clearly my sleep is causing the sun to come up!!

This is a good point which I can use to introduce an effect that a lot of people miss.

It's the number one reason why people will tell you that <insert random "therapy" here> works, despite thousands of scientific tests telling you otherwise.

The effect is known as "regression to the mean". It means a lot of things in a lot of contexts, but in a health context it's quite important because it's irrelevant to belief or state of mind. It applies to animals as equally as it does to people.

The easiest way to think of it is like this:
A case of the willies lasts, on average, about ten days if you take traditional medicine. This is an average - some people's willies go away after 6 days, others, 15.
This means that your symptoms generally peak somewhere around day 5 and after that you start to feel better before it's all gone by day ten.

Homeopathy and other remedies tend to be the treatment of last resort. When I have a sore throat, I don't go to the local mystic, I go and get a packet of strepsils.

So when people get a case of the willies, they go to the doctor and get anti-willie drugs, and roughly ten days later they feel great. What happens is that Joe feels the willies coming on, and gets his drug. Day five comes and he feels crap. Day 8 comes and he feels worse. By Day 10 he's completely browned off, thinks there's no end in sight and goes and gets an alternative medicine. And the next day he starts to feel better! Win for the alternative therapy, right? Well, no.

Regression to the mean basically means that the further outside the curve you are, the sooner an end is in sight. So if a typical case of the willies starts to subside after five days, then by day ten of your severe symptoms, you are statistically more likely to feel better the next day, no matter what you do. Or to look at it another way - At the end of day 4, you are equally likely to feel crap tomorrow as you are to feel better, going by the statistics. By the end of day 5, the statistics swing, so you are less likely to feel crap tomorrow and more likely to feel better. By the end of day ten, there could be a 90% chance of feeling better and a 10% chance of feeling worse. So no matter what you do, you are more likely to feel better on day 11.

Unfortunately it's only when people get desparate that they go for alternative remedies, and attribute "miraculous" recoveries to this treatment, and tell all their friends about how great this treatment is.

If they started taking the alternative therapies in day one of their illness, they would very quickly find out that they're worthless.

Since it's not a psychosomatic phenomenon, it occurs in dogs and cats as equally as it does in people. So if you feed your dog homeopathic solutions because the Vet's treatments haven't worked, then remember that your dog is statistically more likely to feel better tomorrow regardless of what you do.