Homeopathic Medicine.. does it work ?

DeVore

Accupuncture has been tested under what I consider scientific conditions by "real scientists". http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4493011.stm

I dont for one moment buy into the Qi Meridian Lines explanation but I do think that the electrical systems of the body can be manipulated just as western medicine manipulates the chemical systems.



DeV.

username123

DeVore wrote: »

Accupuncture has been tested under what I consider scientific conditions by "real scientists".

Only 14 people were used in that study. Youd need a far larger sample to come up with a proper, repeatable scientific protocol.
And the trial is not a double blind, only the patients did not know which were the fake needles - this itself causes problems as far as proper scientific study goes as the administers may give off subtle signals to the patients (without realising it).

Interesting comment at the end of the article:

Professor Henry McQuay, professor of pain relief at the University of Oxford and member of the Bandolier group that looks at the evidence behind different medical treatments, said: "The great bulk of the randomised controlled trials to date do not provide convincing evidence of pain relief over placebo.
"Some people do report that acupuncture makes them feel better. "But it is extremely difficult, technically, to study acupuncture and tease out the placebo effect."

Its certainly possible that if you could study acupuncture under controlled conditions using double blind trials that some kind of proper benefit would be apparent, but that has not yet been done - in part due to the technical issues mentioned above.

Whispered

Can someone explain to me, say you have chronic migranes for example, and you are on expensive medication for those migranes. Would those tablets also have a placebo effect as well as the medical effects?

Or imagine you try 10 different complementary therapies, and one of them works due to the placebo effect, why didn't the other 9? Does is depend on what you believe, what you expect?

If I could convince someone that my pinching them for instance, over a prolonged period could "cure" something, could they feel better, is that how a placebo would work?

seamus

Whispered wrote: »

Can someone explain to me, say you have chronic migranes for example, and you are on expensive medication for those migranes. Would those tablets also have a placebo effect as well as the medical effects?

They could have, but it would pale in comparison to the effect of the actual drug. Since the placebo effect is unique to each individual, then there's no way to necessarily induce this effect in the person taking the drug.

Or imagine you try 10 different complementary therapies, and one of them works due to the placebo effect, why didn't the other 9? Does is depend on what you believe, what you expect?

It could be anything, tbh. It could be down to a preconditioned response - let's say the tenth remedy tastes foul and requires some preparation to take. You could have a conditioned response that "good" drugs are inherently disgusting and complex, and that's what triggers the placebo effect. Likewise if the last remedy was extremely tasty, then that could trigger your preconditioned placebo response.
There are so many permutations here, you could write a paper on it. Let's say remedy number five works and relieves your headaches through the placebo effect. You will then subconsciously write off remedies 6 and 7 before you even take them because you're expecting a random pattern to emerge, and therefore you believe that neither 6 nor 7 will be effective.

Also don't forget the effect I mention above. If you try ten remedies and only the last one works, then the last one may not have worked at all, you might simply have happened to get better after consuming the last one, with no correlative link.

If I could convince someone that my pinching them for instance, over a prolonged period could "cure" something, could they feel better, is that how a placebo would work?

That's effectively what the placebo effect is. The belief of the patient that a particular treatment will work, inducing a subsiding of the symptoms. It's still generally not believed that the placebo effect goes as far as to cure an illness, but simply to reduce the symptoms. If you can convince someone that pinching will work, then you stand a chance of at least getting some degree of success if you try it with 100 different people.

crotalus667

username123 wrote: »

Only 14 people were used in that study. Youd need a far larger sample to come up with a proper, repeatable scientific protocol.
And the trial is not a double blind, only the patients did not know which were the fake needles - this itself causes problems as far as proper scientific study goes as the administers may give off subtle signals to the patients (without realising it).
.

Give me a box of needels a white coat and the loan of an office , I will get the same results of any "trained" acupuncturist , it's all in how you sell it

Whispered wrote: »

Can someone explain to me, say you have chronic migranes for example, and you are on expensive medication for those migranes. Would those tablets also have a placebo effect as well as the medical effects?.

Yes , Panadol , most people report the effects before it has even had time to work

Whispered wrote: »

Or imagine you try 10 different complementary therapies, and one of them works due to the placebo effect, why didn't the other 9? Does is depend on what you believe, what you expect?

amung a few other things yes

Whispered wrote: »

If I could convince someone that my pinching them for instance, over a prolonged period could "cure" something, could they feel better, is that how a placebo would work?

yes

seamus

crotalus667 wrote: »

Yes , Panadol , most people report the effects before it has even had time to work

Actually that's an interesting one now that I think of it. I drink coffee on weekday mornings. Some Saturdays I don't, and I get a nagging headache from the caffeine withdrawals. I was in the states last year and we got a tub of 500 ibuprofen tablets for like $20 or something, so they're stil going strong.
Only that I thought about it today, what I do recently is I have the nagging headache for a couple of hours. I'm constantly aware of it. So I take two ibuprofen, and about five minutes later I've forgotten about my headache. I actually couldn't tell you if the headache is gone or if I've just ignored it because I know it'll be gone eventually. About 30 minutes later I will realise that my head no longer hurts, but I actually start forgetting about the headache pretty much as soon as I've taken the drugs.

Interesting

Maybe I should move this to a more appropriate forum? Biology?

kylith

crotalus667 wrote: »

Give me a box of needels a white coat and the loan of an office , I will get the same results of any "trained" acupuncturist , it's all in how you sell it

I recommend that you watch a show by Penn & Teller called Bullshít, they basically do just that.

Rigsby

Can someone explain how the placebo effect is supposed to work on animals ? Someone said earlier, that homeopathy on animals works no better than the placebo effect. But the animal does not realise he is getting any medicine at all, be it real or imaginary.

Rigsby

seamus wrote: »

Maybe I should move this to a more appropriate forum? Biology?

No thanks ! Because when I initially started this thread it was specifically to do with a vet's use of this treatment on animals. It seems to have veered away from that, to talking about the placebo effect on humans.

RGDATA!

Rigsby wrote: »

Can someone explain how the placebo effect is supposed to work on animals ? Someone said earlier, that homeopathy on animals works no better than the placebo effect. But the animal does not realise he is getting any medicine at all, be it real or imaginary.

it works on the owner. the owner knows the animal has taken the treatment. owner has paid good money for it, and thus in some cases is more likely to attribute an improvement (real or imagined) in their animal to the treatment.

Rigsby

RGDATA! wrote: »

it works on the owner. the owner knows the animal has taken the treatment. owner has paid good money for it, and thus in some cases is more likely to attribute an improvement (real or imagined) in their animal to the treatment.

Thanks for that, but I am still a bit confused. Do you mean that if a dog undergoes a serious operation and is given a follow up homeopathic medicine to administer, that an owner will attribute any improvement to the homeopathic cure rather than the operation. ???:eek:

DeVore

Yes, effectively thats what happens. The dog itself doesnt report that its feeling better, it cant! The owner may "observe" improvements due to a sort of "placebo effect" and wishful thinking.

Specifically Homeopathy, which the OP mentioned, is mathematically highly unlikely (as in, 1 in the number of molecules in the universe unlikely) to contain even a molecule of the "active" substance. It is "potentized" by bashing it on a saddle made partly from horsehair. I'm not making that bit up.

DeV.

pokertalk

DeVore wrote: »

Yes, effectively thats what happens. The dog itself doesnt report that its feeling better, it cant! The owner may "observe" improvements due to a sort of "placebo effect" and wishful thinking.

Specifically Homeopathy, which the OP mentioned, is mathematically highly unlikely (as in, 1 in the number of molecules in the universe unlikely) to contain even a molecule of the "active" substance. It is "potentized" by bashing it on a saddle made partly from horsehair. I'm not making that bit up.

DeV.

could not find the horse hair bit dev . so whwn it is in the bottle of water then ya bash it off the horse hair?

pokertalk

DeVore wrote: »

Every night I go to sleep and every morning the sun comes up. I mean EVERY morning. Clearly my sleep is causing the sun to come up!!quote
thought that myself but then i went out on a bender and the sun came up anyway even do i stayed awake:D

DeVore

pokertalk wrote: »

could not find the horse hair bit dev . so whwn it is in the bottle of water then ya bash it off the horse hair?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy

look under Preparation. This is now adopted as standard practise and the saddles can cost quite a large amount of money in fact.

DeV.

pokertalk

DeVore wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy

look under Preparation. This is now adopted as standard practise and the saddles can cost quite a large amount of money in fact.

DeV.

dont remember my mother doing that

The Sweeper

Re the therapy/medicine distinction, dead right, totally agree. I just hate to see people hearing 'homeopathy' and then listing a bunch of treatments or therapies or tinctures or remedies that just aren't homeopathic.

Let's take Bachs flower remedies. I occasionally use Rescue Remedy for my cats and it helps to diffuse tensions and promote calmness. It cost me $20 for a 50ml bottle.

Next time I'm going to spend my $20 on a bottle of brandy, and use that instead of RR, because I've seen no effect that persuades me that the calmness and relaxation is a result of Essence of Wibbleries and not a result of 40% proof. I can also guarantee that buying an entire bottle of brandy will allow me to dose myself sufficiently to promote calm and reduce tension in me as well as the animals.

I have had good results using arnica, Lucas pawpaw ointment and aloe vera on animals in terms of reducing inflammation, reducing irritation, soothing chapping, chafing and sores, warding off infection and promoting fast healing. I believe appropriate use of these substances have sometimes spared me a visit to the vet because the condition being treated didn't worsen, but I would NEVER treat anything major with any of these treatments in lieu of a vet visit.

I've also had a good result using teatree on myself, but another problem with OTC herbal solutions is some of them - like teatree especially, and other essential oils - are inappropriate for use in animals and can be misused by people who don't understand that essential oils are highly concentrated and never intended for use neat anyway, and who also don't understand that animals have different physiology to humans and don't necessarily react to herbal remedies the same way. (Teatree and cats should never mix, for instance - and no animal should ever be exposed to a neat essential oil.)

Shenshen

DeVore wrote: »

Yes, effectively thats what happens. The dog itself doesnt report that its feeling better, it cant! The owner may "observe" improvements due to a sort of "placebo effect" and wishful thinking.

Specifically Homeopathy, which the OP mentioned, is mathematically highly unlikely (as in, 1 in the number of molecules in the universe unlikely) to contain even a molecule of the "active" substance. It is "potentized" by bashing it on a saddle made partly from horsehair. I'm not making that bit up.

DeV.

That, and I seem to recall studies showing that placebos are more likely to work on humans if the doctor prescribing them doesn't know they're placebos. The trust the doctor places in the medication can be enough to trigger the placebo effect in his patients.

I think it's very well possible that the owner's trust in homeopathy will trigger a placebo in the pet.

sligopark

pokertalk wrote: »

DeVore wrote: »

Every night I go to sleep and every morning the sun comes up. I mean EVERY morning. Clearly my sleep is causing the sun to come up!!

thought that myself but then i went out on a bender and the sun came up anyway even do i stayed awake:D

and so proving that it is Devore brings up the sun and not you

DeVore

pokertalk wrote: »

DeVore wrote: »

Every night I go to sleep and every morning the sun comes up. I mean EVERY morning. Clearly my sleep is causing the sun to come up!!

thought that myself but then i went out on a bender and the sun came up anyway even do i stayed awake:D

That's a statistical outlier, probably introduced by faulty instrumentation.

DeV.

DeVore

sligopark wrote: »

and so proving that it is Devore brings up the sun and not you

That's nothing!!! Wait till I tell you about how my middle age spread is causing global warming!!

DeV.

sligopark

DeVore wrote: »

That's nothing!!! Wait till I tell you about how my middle age spread is causing global warming!!

DeV.

sweet gaysus DeVore start jogging - the rain over here is killin us

Isadore

Homeopathy is not quackery and has plenty of evidence to support its efficacy, despite pervasive skeptical mantras to say otherwise.

The serial dilutions and shaking may seem implausible, but that doesn't make it impossible and someone genuinely curious should see beyond that to the studies done and the sheer popularity of Homeopathy worldwide.

I leave these links for your consideration.

Frequent False Statements about Homeopathy

Summary of Scientific Research in Homeopathy including a section on studies done with animals treated with Homeopathy.

cheers

passive

Isadore wrote: »

Homeopathy is not quackery and has plenty of evidence to support its efficacy, despite pervasive skeptical mantras to say otherwise.

The serial dilutions and shaking may seem implausible, but that doesn't make it impossible and someone genuinely curious should see beyond that to the studies done and the sheer popularity of Homeopathy worldwide.

I leave these links for your consideration.

Frequent False Statements about Homeopathy

Summary of Scientific Research in Homeopathy including a section on studies done with animals treated with Homeopathy.

cheers

This thread died 3 months ago. Go away with your nonsense.

DeVore

If you want to ignore real science and talk about "popularity" then next time you have a burst appendix dont get a surgeon, hire Simon Cowell.


DeV.

edwinkane

Isadore wrote: »

Homeopathy is not quackery and has plenty of evidence to support its efficacy, despite pervasive skeptical mantras to say otherwise.

The serial dilutions and shaking may seem implausible, but that doesn't make it impossible and someone genuinely curious should see beyond that to the studies done and the sheer popularity of Homeopathy worldwide.

I leave these links for your consideration.

Frequent False Statements about Homeopathy

Summary of Scientific Research in Homeopathy including a section on studies done with animals treated with Homeopathy.

cheers

I've just come across this now and it made me smile. I'm afraid your definition of "evidence" seems a little flexible.

In medicine, before anyone can claim a medicine "works", the medicine in question has to undergo double blind trials which are subject to peer review.

Despite making billions out or their homeopathic pills, it is curious how none of the homoeopathic companies have decided to fund and publish the results of double blind trials, subject to peer review, to prove once and for all that their wonderful little pills do, in fact, "work".

I've always been curious about that. After all, if they prove their little pills do work, their sales would skyrocket, bringing benefits to countless millions worldwide.

Did you ever wonder why they don't publish the results of clinical trials, peer reviewed, and available for anyone to reproduce?