Poll - who is to blame for the Irish property crash?

Slideshowbob

Well?

ejmaztec

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Well?

Yes, it was the well, it ran dry.:(

aidan_walsh

Stephen.

Liam Byrne

Others

Everyone who got greedy

ChunkyLover_53

Alison O'Riordan & those like her

muletide

Financial Regulator

I blame the nurses.

(well that's what everyone else is doing these days)

Mike 1972

Serious Answer: All of the above and then some (e.g. estate agents and anyone else with a vested interest in the bubble)

Blaming "Joe Public" is throwing the net a bit wide though. Not everyone willingly bought into the collective insanity of the tiger bubble years.

AH Answer: I blame the scapegoats. Its always those bloody scapegoats.

bijapos

Others

The blame lies on a collective failing of various amounts of all of the parties mentioned above.

Hail 2 Da Thief

Others

The Government.
They had crazy tax incentive schemes in place even when it was clear that the construction sector was too large in relation to the rest of the economy.
When it was clear for all to see that something had to be done to slow down the output within the industry they did nothing but sit back & simply allow the bust to happen!
C*nts the lot of em!

Ulysses Gaze

C'mon now. Where is the Lehman Bros option? Sure that's who Ahern, St. Lenihan and the rest of FF believed caused the crash.

And sure, nobody could have seen it coming.

Oat23

Osama

Jimbob1977

Everyone who overstretched themselves is collectively responsible - the banking sector, politicians, the financial regulator and Joe Public.

If I had taken out that mortgage for €575k three years ago for a three-bedroom house in Shankill, that would have been my fault.

I was not coerced into it with a gun at my back. The bank did throw money at me and indulged me, but it's my signature on the dotted line. God gave me free will to say yes or no. Thankfully, I was outbid. I was almost caught up in the property madness.

People should accept personal responsibility for paying €6 for a sandwich or €7 for a beer. I sympathise with people in financial difficulty, but it's a modern disease when someone else is always to blame. As Bart Simpson says "I didn't do it".

Mike 1972

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

And sure, nobody could have seen it coming.

Except
1) Those of us whose formative years were in times when the terms "Irish state" and "failure" were synonomus and regarded the whole concept of the "tiger" with a healthy degree of cynicism scepticism
2) Those of us with some awareness of the outside world who had seen the same happen (more than once in some cases) in other countries.

biko

Builders

If I were to blame a single person then the financial regulator Patrick Neary, who now enjoys his pension of 630000 Euro.
The man we put in place to watch over the banks failed at his job but instead of being drummed out of the public service for failing Neary gets a massive pension.

Ireland, where sucking at your job will get you paid (if you're with the FF crowd).

MrMatisse

Financial Regulator

People should blame themselves. Nobody protested outside the regulators office saying hey stop the banks lending, people were happy to jump on the bandwgon and pay 300K + for a house in a floodplain in Westmeath.

We all share some responsibility.

Liam Byrne

Others

Really-Stressed wrote: »

People should blame themselves. Nobody protested outside the regulators office saying hey stop the banks lending, people were happy to jump on the bandwgon and pay 300K + for a house in a floodplain in Westmeath.

We all share some responsibility.

Here we go again......


For "people" in the above post, replace with some people and you might be closer to being right.

HavingCrack

The sort of people whp paid €200,000 for a wardrobe sized room on Leeson Street...

MrMatisse

Financial Regulator

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Here we go again......


For "people" in the above post, replace with some people and you might be closer to being right.

Sorry, I missed those protests you led outside the regulators office.

Hande hoche!

Lizard people.

Ruu_Old

Others

All of the above.

TheZohanS

Jim DeMint.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

Others

I blamed Joe Public, Financial Regulator, Banks, Developers and the Government. Of course I'm right so dont dare and contradict me.

K-9

There are no foreigners to blame there.

The ECB.

El Siglo

Others

Banks, developers, government and financial regulator. All hand-in-hand, fucking everybody.

Capt'n Midnight

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Everyone who got greedy

people are greedy, that's one of the main reasons why we have laws


The people responsible are those whose duty it was to prevent it.

almost all of these people lived through the 1980's so they have no excuse for realising that had times existed, phrases like "saving for a rainy day" are very common.

the financial regulator - is treason still a capital offence ?

the government - building of houses is a pyramid scheme , FF mortgaging our future to buy elections, just like they did late '70's early '80's. At least then they bit the bullet with the cuts.

we are due a budget soon with a 4 year plan
we should have had that budget 2 years ago , instead we've got drip feed of the bad news that was known then, and they've been digging a deeper hole with borrowings instead of trimming the fat, so instead of 6 years to get out of that hole, we will have 4 far worse years (at least DOUBLE the €'s per year) , also if they had revealed the bad news then we might believe them now , instead we are still waiting for more billions to be revealed

others -
Overall there should be a balance between risk and reward, if there is no risk then people will chance their arms, the elite here have availed of numerous tax amnesties and there have been a lot of tribunals with very little punishment other than handing back the money (not all of it of course just the bits that were found out) with financial penalties that could be treated as overdraft payments (especially if you got away with other transactions).

Until those who broke the letter of the law (and the spirit of the law) are seen to be punished it will continue to happen in the future, the only difference is that they won't be quite as blatant about it. I keep saying this but by diverting funds from the public finances the end result is that people die because of reduced health spending and other things like road improvements and inspections etc.

self regulation just doesn't work in this country when money is involved


If the organisation you worked for has taken a bath then the decision makers there should be held accountable
Those guilty of reckless trading should be prosecuted
The financial regulator isn't a member of the judiciary. So people can't use the excuse that because they weren't reprimanded by the regulator it was OK to do stuff they should have known to be wrong under laws of trading partners or best practice.

In future companies should be banned from handing out bonuses over a certain % of wage without it being dependent on the future health of the company, perhaps buying the exec a house over 10 years. A signifigant proportion of executives are psycopaths in that they don't really care about the company's future just about short term gains ( if they cared about the company more than their pockets they'd stay, unlike those lower down they don't need the money from a steady job - head hunters should have a duty of care here too )

Diposal of assets to wives etc. - the law on stolen goods is quite clear. If the money was stolen then it wasn't you asset to give away. The law on stolen goods is quite clear for those receiving them too.

mikemac

Financial Regulator

Government

Building section 23 estates in rural areas that nobody wanted, the locals wouldn't even buy them.
Our village is blighted with a closed up, unfinished Section 23 estate nobody wanted, nobody will ever buy and who knows what will happen it.
Sure the biggest local employer is the Spar shop so who would move here?

Tax breaks for hotels, it did provide employment but many hotels are closing so was it worth it?
I do think the section 50 scheme for student accommodation was a good idea but that started in 1999 and was planning ahead

Mike 1972

K-9 wrote: »

There's are no foreigners to blame there.

The ECB.

A lot of people (including the Government) are looking to the ECB (i.e. the German taxpayer) to get us out of the mess.

Im sure the Germans are getting pi$$ed off at one stage. For one thing we had our chance (enabled by decades of their investment) and blew it (blatently disregarding the ECB rulebook in the process). For another the EU is now far bigger and there are other parts of it (including parts of Germany itself) far more deserving of economic assistance. Not to mention that the Germans themselves have played by the rules and didnt get themselves into trouble with unsustainable notions of universal home ownership coupled (contradictially) with the idea that ever rising property "values" were unquestionably a good thing.

Its laughable the way people condem social welfare reciepiants for having a sense of entitlement to have the Irish taxpayer to fund their lifestyle and bad decisions when their own are being funded by the Germans.

The ECB/German taxpayer may well yet tell Ireland (and the Italians/Greeks etc)to go and f**k themselves and I wouldnt blame them for one second if they did.

Son Of A Vidic

Others

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Except
1) Those of us whose formative years were in times when the terms "Irish state" and "failure" were synonomus and regarded the whole concept of the "tiger" with a healthy degree of cynicism scepticism
2) Those of us with some awareness of the outside world who had seen the same happen (more than once in some cases) in other countries.

Amen to that!

tricky D

Others

Tent users in Connacht

Biggins

Others

Short version:

The Government: Lack of proper regulations (and one they brought in were a joke) - then they actually (stupidly) de-regulated some areas! They failed then in other areas, to give the regulators the legal teeth to stand up to the banks.
(convenient of course when so many of them were/are in bed with the building business)

The Regulators: Not standing up to the government and saying "WE DO NOT HAVE THE NECESSARY POWERS WE NEED" - and if they did say it at any stage, it was with the bark of a poodle!
What abilities they had, back by the letter of the law, they consistently failed to enact using those laws and rules! They were lazy, turned a blind eye sometimes and in cases, went along with some every questionable goings on.

Banks/Developers/Builders: They all on their own or with each other took the money, rules and twisted everything to their warped advantage. They not only bought the government (see "Drumcondra Mafia") and pressurised others on the opposite side of the Dail - as well as being too in bed with them, then took complete advantage of a Celtic Tiger and abused all its possibilities.

...Thats the short version!

Luxie

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Except
1) Those of us whose formative years were in times when the terms "Irish state" and "failure" were synonomus and regarded the whole concept of the "tiger" with a healthy degree of cynicism scepticism
2) Those of us with some awareness of the outside world who had seen the same happen (more than once in some cases) in other countries.

This. I was being told by folk at home in 2005, 'ah sure come home, you'll have no problem getting a job and the banks are giving out 100% mortgages'.

Or was 120%, can't remember.

Anyway refused, as no way was I getting into that much debt on my own.

And as a child of the eighties, was naturally suspicious/cautious of the whole circus that was the Celtic Tiger anyway.

kuntboy

It's easy to blame in hindsight but at the time any critics were harshly dealt with. If the government had slowed things down there would have been uproar and they would've been voted out. The regulator would have been sacked if he'd rocked the boat. Bankers have a duty to their stockholders to maximise profits and the developers were just opportunists.

maxxie

Others

THFC wrote: »

I blamed Joe Public, Financial Regulator, Banks, Developers and the Government. Of course I'm right so dont dare and contradict me.

:mad:

johnmcdnl

Builders

anyone who turned houses into an investment to sell at a later date at a profit pretty much

basically anyone who wanted a house for anything bar to live in or possibly to rent... we'll let them away with it as long as it was "an investment"

a house should be somewhere to live and blaming the public for paying over the odds for a house is wrong - was the average Joe Bloggs going to stay at home with mammy and daddy or move into a cardboard box - it wasn't their fault that houses cost that much...

audi4444

Developers

banks goverment developers some where in that order

audi4444

Developers

lets blame joe public he looks like a scap goat oh sorry we have enough of them

Slideshowbob

Others

Thanks for d feedback

I'd tend to apportion blame towards the government ultimately

Interesting developers are high up there in results. But they only bought & built on sites once banks decided to lend to them. These banks were to be watched over by the regulator who in turn should have been kept in check by the government.....

Now in order to sort out country all we need to do is establish the total level of stressed/defaulted indebtedness and apportion payback in proportion to this pol'ss findings and commit to pay back over as long a period as possible

Simples

Now what is a field in Leitrim or 1bed dog box in tallaght really worth ....

Fighting Irish

Financial Regulator

Really-Stressed wrote: »

People should blame themselves. Nobody protested outside the regulators office saying hey stop the banks lending, people were happy to jump on the bandwgon and pay 300K + for a house in a floodplain in Westmeath.

We all share some responsibility.

People who bought houses at ridiculous prices are to blame

Slideshowbob

Others

Fighting Irish wrote: »

People who bought houses at ridiculous prices are to blame

should the government not have controlled the flow of money through the regulator?

did the average joe have the capabilities to analyse if property values were sustainable?!!?

and what of the auctioneers and estate agents that gave what now turns out tobe misleading guide prices?

what about the valuers acting for purchasers that would have verified property values for the banks in question for those purchases? would their professional indemnity insurances not be under question given their inaccurate valuations!?

whats to stop it all happening again (apart from there being no friggin credit)?

th3 s1aught3r

Others

Where does the buck stop if not with Bertie Ahern ?
He was the top dog while the seeds of doom were being sown

Bullseye1

I would say all of the above to a smaller or greater extent. Joe public got very greedy when it came to selling and buying multiple properties to rent. They have also to take some responsibility for those apartments put in Spain.

MagicMarker

Others

I chose every option.

Mike 1972

Others

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Serious Answer: All of the above and then some (e.g. estate agents and anyone else with a vested interest in the bubble)

Blaming "Joe Public" is throwing the net a bit wide though. Not everyone willingly bought into the collective insanity of the tiger bubble years.

AH Answer: I blame the scapegoats. Its always those bloody scapegoats.

Fair comments, so many people in all walks of life saw an oppertunity to make easy money in this scheme, only like all pyramid schemes it eventually collapses when the number of punters dry up.

Fighting Irish

Financial Regulator

kuntboy wrote: »

It's easy to blame in hindsight but at the time any critics were harshly dealt with. If the government had slowed things down there would have been uproar and they would've been voted out. The regulator would have been sacked if he'd rocked the boat. Bankers have a duty to their stockholders to maximise profits and the developers were just opportunists.

perfectly said

Fighting Irish

Financial Regulator

johnmcdnl wrote: »

anyone who turned houses into an investment to sell at a later date at a profit pretty much

basically anyone who wanted a house for anything bar to live in or possibly to rent... we'll let them away with it as long as it was "an investment"

a house should be somewhere to live and blaming the public for paying over the odds for a house is wrong - was the average Joe Bloggs going to stay at home with mammy and daddy or move into a cardboard box - it wasn't their fault that houses cost that much...

lol

Finnbar01

Others

Fractional reserve banking (ponzi scheme) and fiat currencies (counterfeiting).

Miguel_Sanchez

Really-Stressed wrote: »

People should blame themselves. Nobody protested outside the regulators office saying hey stop the banks lending, people were happy to jump on the bandwgon and pay 300K + for a house in a floodplain in Westmeath.

I wasn't. I didn't buy a house. Don't blame me.

And before you say I should have been protesting outside the financial regulator's office - I don't know anything about finance, there are supposed to be checks and balances in place to make sure a system is running properly. Whose fault is it that these weren't adhered to? The banks and the government's fault essentially, not mine.

So don't blame me for this. I had nothing to do with it.

Fighting Irish

Financial Regulator

Slideshowbob wrote: »

should the government not have controlled the flow of money through the regulator?

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68652325&postcount=32

Slideshowbob wrote: »

did the average joe have the capabilities to analyse if property values were sustainable?!!?

It's not hard to figure out if something is way overpriced or not, stupid excuse

Slideshowbob wrote: »

and what of the auctioneers and estate agents that gave what now turns out tobe misleading guide prices?

what about the valuers acting for purchasers that would have verified property values for the banks in question for those purchases? would their professional indemnity insurances not be under question given their inaccurate valuations!?

People have jobs to make money, and like everyone they want to make as much profit as possible

Finnbar01

Others

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Fractional reserve banking (ponzi scheme) and fiat currencies (counterfeiting).

Perfect building blocks for a pyramid, only problem is they built it upside down!

We can look forward to some clever financial shenanigans when the debts are inflated away along with your savings.

bobblepuzzle

biko wrote: »

If I were to blame a single person then the financial regulator Patrick Neary, who now enjoys his pension of 630000 Euro.
The man we put in place to watch over the banks failed at his job but instead of being drummed out of the public service for failing Neary gets a massive pension.

Ireland, where sucking at your job will get you paid (if you're with the FF crowd).

I think you'll find he was doing his job... with the rules that were laid out in front of him at the time

Falcon Crest

Others

Probably a little bit of every option is to blame.