Poll - who is to blame for the Irish property crash?

Son Of A Vidic

Others

At the end of the day it's irelevant who we blame, because we're all now in this sh1te together.

Mardy Bum

Banks

Basel II was a big factor.

Mike 1972

medicman2009 wrote: »

At the end of the day it's irelevant who we blame,

I wonder if Saddam's defence lawyers tried that one

medicman2009 wrote: »

because we're all now in this sh1te together.

Except
1) (to some extent) those of us who choose to live outside the state or are planning to do so in the near future
2) Those members of the Golden circle (i.e. those largely responsible) who have managed to hold onto their jobs (or have "resigned" with fat pensions/golden handshakes) and are highly unlikely to spend a single day inside a prison cell.

Its mostly No 2 above who are spinning the "we're all in this together" line when it is patently bulls**t

Fighting Irish

Financial Regulator

Mike 1972 wrote: »

I wonder if Saddam's defence lawyers tried that one



Except
1) (to some extent) those of us who choose to live outside the state or are planning to do so in the near future
2) Those members of the Golden circle (i.e. those largely responsible) who have managed to hold onto their jobs (or have "resigned" with fat pensions/golden handshakes) and are highly unlikely to spend a single day inside a prison cell.

Its mostly No 2 above who are spinning the "we're all in this together" line when it is patently bulls**t

jealous much

De Dannan

medicman2009 wrote: »

At the end of the day it's irelevant who we blame, because we're all now in this sh1te together.

Its unlikely that a top politician or banker who has retired on a tasty pension will have trouble paying the mortgage or the heating bill this winter.
Personally I didnt take any part in the propery bubble, but now I will have to pay more tax to bail out those that did, seems unfair ?

lostwallet

Others

th3 s1aught3r wrote: »

Where does the buck stop if not with Bertie Ahern ?
He was the top dog while the seeds of doom were being sown

+1

Robbed from the Property Pin Glossary:

Definition: Bertugabe

De accountant...... who's not an accountant
De LSE graduate....... who never went to LSE
De Minister fer Finance wi' no bank account (He just used de daughters')
De Leader wit no skeletons
De man who never took no 50k in a car park from no one
Definitely Not de B in B&T account (dat' B fer building defo')
De Financial genius wha' cashes his Punt wage cheques in sterling before relodging dem in Punts again.
De man wha' doesn't remember details but definitely remembers NO DOLLARS!!!
De empatiser wi' de homeless (sure wasn't he a squatter in Lukes fer years)
De renovater of Landlords Gaffs
De champion of Dail Privelege (snot about him its about de princdiples)
De saviour of great Aunts everywhere
De scourge of tax evaders everywhere
De Sartorial champion of Canary yellow
De most cunning and devious of dem all
De future President of Europe


It's BERTUGABE !!!!!!!!

http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?p=67877#p67877

PanchoVilla

Others

Basically the only people you can honestly blame is the government. They are paid massive salaries to ensure the stability of this country and they failed miserably. They allowed banks to lend ridiculous sums of money to people who couldn't pay it back. They allowed land lords and estate agents to sell houses many times above their actual value. They allowed developers to build properties that nobody wanted. They allowed migrant workers to flood the country and take a good bit of money out of the national economy. They allowed Irish businesses to fail while giving tax breaks and other assistance to foreign companies. They sold off our nation's resources to line their own pockets.

So yeah, I'd say the government is squarely to blame here.

flash1080

People should blame themselves. It's not FF's fault.

PanchoVilla

Others

flash1080 wrote: »

People should blame themselves. It's not FF's fault.

So what in the fúck are we paying them for? They are responsible for guiding the country and ensuring stability. They are responsible for ensuring the laws of this country and the articles of the constitution are upheld.

Saying it's not FF's fault is like saying it's not the parent's fault when their child gets into the press under the sink and drinks a bottle of Domestos. This country had never seen so much wealth before so it's understandable people went a bit mental. It was the government's responsibility to ensure the economy was stable and people weren't being ripped off left, right, and center.

Fighting Irish

Financial Regulator

PanchoVilla wrote: »

Basically the only people you can honestly blame is the government. They are paid massive salaries to ensure the stability of this country and they failed miserably. They allowed banks to lend ridiculous sums of money to people who couldn't pay it back. They allowed land lords and estate agents to sell houses many times above their actual value. They allowed developers to build properties that nobody wanted. They allowed migrant workers to flood the country and take a good bit of money out of the national economy. They allowed Irish businesses to fail while giving tax breaks and other assistance to foreign companies. They sold off our nation's resources to line their own pockets.

So yeah, I'd say the government is squarely to blame here.

They gave the public what they wanted

kuntboy wrote: »

It's easy to blame in hindsight but at the time any critics were harshly dealt with. If the government had slowed things down there would have been uproar and they would've been voted out. The regulator would have been sacked if he'd rocked the boat. Bankers have a duty to their stockholders to maximise profits and the developers were just opportunists.

.

Slideshowbob

Others

Fighting Irish wrote: »

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68652325&postcount=32



It's not hard to figure out if something is way overpriced or not, stupid excuse



People have jobs to make money, and like everyone they want to make as much profit as possible

If it wasn't up to the government/ regulator why has regulation got more strict and they've hired more staff now they know the mistakes they made

The government have more resources to hand in terms of economists etc than average Joe my friend

You obviously ain't read up on codes of ethics etc that valuers are supposed to commit to as part of their professional institutions

spider guardian

Developers

The banks for lending out too much credit.

The government for offering too much tax incentives to developers

The local authorities for rezoning land when the demand wasn't even there.

The financial regulator for not regulating.

Members of the public who bought into the madness because everyone else did.

The signs were there, the ERSI had warned that the economy was being overheated by the property sector, certain commentators in the media (Shane Ross comes to mind) had warned that the property market was "on stilts" yet people didn't want to know, we were all told that "we never had it so good", the public sector got their massive wage increases and those who wanted to call a halt to the party were told to go and commit suicide. Even when it was apparent that there was big trouble in store we still deluded ourselves with talk of a "soft landing".

This wasn't just caused by the bankers and politicians, plenty more had a hand in it

Fighting Irish

Others

Fighting Irish wrote: »

They gave the public what they wanted



.

Well, they gave some members of the public what they wanted, but left the mess for everyone to clean up!
A bit like a coach tour of nightclubs giving free drinks for a select group went on, the public (all of us) are left with the bill to clean up the mess after at the parties.

lamai

mother teresa

changes

Others

The Fianna Fail taoiseach who did away with property rates (tax) in the late 70's to buy the next election.

If a fair property tax had been in place for the last 40 years then we would not have had the government relying on property transations to get their revenues in. Things would have been very different.

But apart from that -Government, Banks, Developers, The people... in that order.

Ulysses Gaze

flash1080 wrote: »

People should blame themselves. It's not FF's fault.

People should blame themselves for voting for The Soldiers of Bankruptcy (those that did). This is a party drenched in corruption, corruption that is consistently exposed yet people STILL vote for them. You'd think after learning the fact that FF have bankrupted the country at least twice people would cop on.

If history has taught us anything, it is that The 'Republican' (snigger) Party are an entity that has been led by gombeens and spivs since the corrupt Haughey and his cadre of buffons effectively made the finances of Ireland their own personal 'bank' accounts.

Yet even as they fleece us, people still vote for them!

So you're right in a sense. The 41% of the electorate that helped put this shower of shysters into power are, partly, to blame.

changes

Others

changes wrote: »

The Fianna Fail taoiseach who did away with property rates (tax) in the late 70's to buy the next election.

If a fair property tax had been in place for the last 40 years then we would not have had the government relying on property transations to get their revenues in. Things would have been very different.

But apart from that -Government, Banks, Developers, The people... in that order.

Difficult to argue with any of that! Prices would have still risen above inflation but not to the same extent, it's difficult to do exact price comparisons because (some) houses are very different to those built in the 70s. The differences distort the figures, having said that, the "bog standard three bed semi" became seriously overpriced.

K-9

Not to absolve FG/Labour of blame on property, they got rid of the property valuation tax we did have in the mid 90's and water rates, which we have to bring back in.

ValJester

Financial Regulator

Anyone who was stupid enough to borrow money without having secure means of paying it back, and banks who were stupid enough to lend them it.

iguana

Others

There were a lot of people/groups who played their parts but ultimately banks/developers/EAs/etc are in the business of making money, that's really their only purpose. The government and state institutions however are supposed to look after the best interests of the country. So it was actually their job to regulate the building and banking industry adequately and if they had the bubble and it's subsequent popping would never have happened.

Oranage2

I blame the banks - they're the ones that lent the money -

the goverment just pi$$es me off for bailing out the banks, letting the banks lend so much without warning us about the consequences( not sure if they even knew or if they just let it happen so they could line their pockets - either way its sickening)

Not sure how much Joe public can be blamed - we were constantly told that buying property was a safe investment and that the cetic tiger bubble was never gonna burst -

Celly Smunt

Others

Oranage2 wrote: »

I blame the banks - they're the ones that lent the money -

would you blame coca cola for selling too much coke to people who are over weight?

Oranage2 wrote: »

the goverment just pi$$es me off for bailing out the banks, letting the banks lend so much without warning us about the consequences( not sure if they even knew or if they just let it happen so they could line their pockets - either way its sickening)

what about the "joe public" living off credit? lining his pocket?

Oranage2 wrote: »

Not sure how much Joe public can be blamed - we were constantly told that buying property was a safe investment and that the cetic tiger bubble was never gonna burst -

joe public fueled the fire as much as anyone else,its time to face the fact that if,for example a company sells it needs buyers,if buyers keep buying why should the company stop selling?

OPENROAD

Oranage2 wrote: »

Not sure how much Joe public can be blamed - we were constantly told that buying property was a safe investment and that the cetic tiger bubble was never gonna burst -

Problem people started buying multiple properties

And people well believed it and if you said anything bad about the celtic tiger you were shot down, I can remember threads saying that the economic crisis would not be that bad and that the UK was in a far worse position

policarp

Government

Does anybody think Europe is in any to blame for our situation?
There are MEPs and highly paid public servants doing What in Brussles?
They saw the hole we were digging for ourselves and did nothing, just one or two slaps on the wrists.

Rockery Woman

Developers

I think the banks are mostly to blame.

Back in 2005 when applying for the mortgage, we were told we could borrow a lot more than we actually needed.

110 percent mortgages! That was asking for trouble!

People got nice new cars, holidays etc from the easy money. If the banks had acted a bit more responsibily when issuing loans, perhaps property prices would not have escalated so much!

rubensni

Others

pmcmahon wrote: »

would you blame coca cola for selling too much coke to people who are over weight?

Ludicrous analogy. It has transpired (as part of the NAMA process) that the banks (esp. Anglo and AIB) gave multimillion loans to developers with no guarantees and with no prospects that the sites would or could be developed. Nama paid nothing for those loans because they are worthless. That is gross negligence.

Anyone remember this gem?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_URy6gEijg

Oranage2

pmcmahon wrote: »

would you blame coca cola for selling too much coke to people who are over weight?

Worst analogy ever.

pmcmahon wrote: »

joe public fueled the fire as much as anyone else,its time to face the fact that if,for example a company sells it needs buyers,if buyers keep buying why should the company stop selling?

Another poor analogy

force majeure

Financial Regulator

Too many people wanted it all, the banks said ok as they did not want you going down the road to a rival bank put it another way if you have 2 drinks in the pub you well be ok if you have 8....

Misanthrope

Peter Sutherland.He's one of the ones to blame for the global crash too.He is one of those pulling the strings of the puppet shows we call our governments and the UN.

Read his CV.No Irish person has or has had more political power than this guy.It's like he's President of the World.

Nobody was in a better position to know about, prevent or remedy the predicament at either national or global level.

Saila

Nostradamus - clever insightfull f*cker? me arse

greenmachine88

bertie O' Cowen

ascanbe

Ultimately, everyone in the country is to blame, to some extent; the electorate who kept voting in the same government and endorsing their policies, the government who failed to regulate the banks and fueled the property bubble, much of the media, who profited from the boom in sales and advertising that came from the bubble and so didn't ask any questions.
What is more scandalous is what is going on now; the idea that the disaster is a fait acclompi and that nothing can be done about it.
The ultimate blame will fall on everyone in this country if enough isn't done to stop the current government pushing through the Anglo-bailout/Nama heist.
It still isn't too late to stop it; if it is continued with unquestioned, there'll be hell to pay in this country.

ascanbe

Misanthrope wrote: »

Peter Sutherland.He's one of the ones to blame for the global crash too.He is one of those pulling the strings of the puppet shows we call our governments and the UN.

Read his CV.No Irish person has or has had more political power than this guy.It's like he's President of the World.

Nobody was in a better position to know about, prevent or remedy the predicament at either national or global level.

Unfortunately, in this bizarre country we live in, not only is he not shouldering any blame; he's currently being employed as an advisor to our government.
He's advising them what to do and profiting from it, along with his buddys in Goldman Sachs; he sits on the board.
So he advises the government to bail-out the Quinn group in conjunction with Anglo, for instance, then passes on this knowledge to his friends so they can buy up shares in it; shares that were at rock-bottom because the Quinn Group would have collapsed if Anglo did, as it should have.
It's insider-trading, basically; with the backing of and bank-rolled by our government.

BostonB

Others

ascanbe wrote: »

Ultimately, everyone in the country is to blame, to some extent....

Err no. Everyone isn't to blame.

Mike 1972

policarp wrote: »

Does anybody think Europe is in any to blame for our situation?
There are MEPs and highly paid public servants doing What in Brussles?
They saw the hole we were digging for ourselves and did nothing, just one or two slaps on the wrists.

blaming it on Europe is an even bigger cop out than the "everyone is to blame" line
The Irish state has been independent for the best part of 90 years now. When it it going to start acting with maturity rather than expecting Europe to act like its nanny.

Arthurdaly

What we are essentially saying in this country is that the banks/government are responsible because a large percentage of adults in this country were not capable of making sound decisions, "the bank offered me a mortgage so it must be ok".

My brother inlaw had 3 properties at the height of the boom and would constantly proclaim how much "he was up"! Just like any gambler we no longer here a peep from him re property value now. Amateur investers brought this country to it's knees!

Slideshowbob

Others

Arthurdaly wrote: »

What we are essentially saying in this country is that the banks/government are responsible because a large percentage of adults in this country were not capable of making sound decisions, "the bank offered me a mortgage so it must be ok".

My brother inlaw had 3 properties at the height of the boom and would constantly proclaim how much "he was up"! Just like any gambler we no longer here a peep from him re property value now. Amateur investers brought this country to it's knees!

so u think government / regulator have no responsibility at all?

why do u think ff have such low poll ratings at mo?

Mike 1972

Arthurdaly wrote: »

What we are essentially saying in this country is that the banks/government are responsible because a large percentage of adults in this country were not capable of making sound decisions, "the bank offered me a mortgage so it must be ok".

While one can argue that it shouldnt be the job of government to protest people from their own stupidity when that stupidity starts to affect other people/society in general then surely protecting the rest of us is what Governments are for ?

Many people who didnt/wouldnt/couldnt participate in or particularly benefit from the property boom bubble are among those worst affected by its consequences.

kippy

Ah come on,
A poll in AH without an Atari Jaguar option.
Fcking n00bs.

gurramok

Others

kippy wrote: »

Ah come on,
A poll in AH without an Atari Jaguar option.
Fcking n00bs.

Under 'Others' :P

david75

Financial Regulator

Irish people have to shoulder a lot of this blame. It's people defaulting on loans and not repaying them makes up a lot of this debt. People getting attic conversions/extensions/second properties and that sort of thing.

The banks mainly are to blame though, top to bottom.

Teutorix

Others

I blame boards.

kippy

gurramok wrote: »

Under 'Others' :P

Hmmm.........

mickdw

I firstly blame the people who were stupid enough to line up outside a new housing development and beg for a house. The price might rise 40k during a single day depending on the demand but still the people begged.
How can anyone blame a developer in this situation?

Secondly I blame government for allowing it to go on for far too long and for being stupid enough to allow the tx system to become dependant on construction income

Thirdly I blame the banks. Not for jumping in with both feet but for allowing loans which in the end have turned out to be largely unsecured thus creating an even bigger blackhole.

Arthurdaly

Mike 1972 wrote: »

While one can argue that it shouldnt be the job of government to protest people from their own stupidity when that stupidity starts to affect other people/society in general then surely protecting the rest of us is what Governments are for ?

Many people who didnt/wouldnt/couldnt participate in or particularly benefit from the property boom bubble are among those worst affected by its consequences.

If the government were telling people they cannot purchase a property the country would be up in arms!! People who purchased and drove the propery market up are to blame, simple as!

If a bannana was 2 euro tomorrow would you but it?

galwayrush

Others

Arthurdaly wrote: »

If a bannana was 2 euro tomorrow would you but it?

Yes. I'd head but it, along with the overcharging bastard trying to sell it to me.

:pac::pac:

Mike 1972

Arthurdaly wrote: »

If the government were telling people they cannot purchase a property the country would be up in arms!!

The government would be telling people they cannot purchase a property they would be telling the banks they cannot lend to people who want to buy overvalued property and/or cant meet the repayments. Theres a big difference.

Arthurdaly wrote: »

People who purchased and drove the propery market up are to blame, simple as!

A lot of people (rightly or wrongly) felt they didnt have much choice. Ive always maintained that that there are a lot of people out there who dont actually really want to own their own home but merely think they do because the alternatives (an under regulated private rented sector and a stigmatised/ghettoised local authority "system") in Ireland are so bloody terrible