Messi v Ronaldo

Roger Sterling

gimmick wrote: »

Roger Sterling wrote: »

Ronaldo equalled the reord tonight for scoring in consecutive Classicos.

Doesn't perform in the big games at all like.

Ya, the super copa is a huge game alright.

I didnt see anyone taking it anything but 100% seriously last night anyway.

Giggsy11

gimmick wrote: »

Ya, the super copa is a huge game alright.

And people were singing praises about Iniesta for his first leg performance.

Any Madrid vs Barca game is a huge one, and super copa too. You can see players giving more than 100% in this year and last year's tie.

gimmick

More than 100% eh?

Giggsy11

yes.

eZe^

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Imagine how good Ronaldo would be if he took a HGH through his teens :eek:

This is my favourite post ever.

patmac

Just saw this on YLYL4 perfect logic they are only trotting behind this lad
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/4670/heskeyvmessi.png

Dempsey

mayordenis wrote: »

I don't normally post in this stupid thread, but this really bugs me, it's not like HGH has made him into some sort of super-sized monster, there was a reason Barca took him to Spain and paid his medical bills.
He was already the naturally talented wonderplayer we see before us, this just allowed him to basically lead a standard life, and to compete on a close to level playing field.

He is unnaturally strong for someone his size, he is rarely injured or carrying knocks for someone that plays so many games and takes a regular kicking. Yes, he had natural ability but its still using a treatment that is banned in professional sport before he turned professional.

The real Ronaldo wasnt allowed to get proper treatment for his thyroid problem whilst playing because it was a banned substance for a pro footballer to take. That took its toll on him. Plenty of other players with conditions that cant be properly treated because the substance needed is banned.

I wouldnt be surprised if all the elite clubs started doping their best and brightest whilst they are youth players to insure their physical development and reduce injury proneness. Legally they can easily get away with it because they arent professionals, the ethics of it is another thing though.

Bodhisopha

Dempsey wrote: »

He is unnaturally strong for someone his size, he is rarely injured or carrying knocks for someone that plays so many games and takes a regular kicking. Yes, he had natural ability but its still using a treatment that is banned in professional sport before he turned professional.

The real Ronaldo wasnt allowed to get proper treatment for his thyroid problem whilst playing because it was a banned substance for a pro footballer to take. That took its toll on him. Plenty of other players with conditions that cant be properly treated because the substance needed is banned.

I wouldnt be surprised if all the elite clubs started doping their best and brightest whilst they are youth players to insure their physical development and reduce injury proneness. Legally they can easily get away with it because they arent professionals, the ethics of it is another thing though.

What an intensely moronic post.

He receieved medical treatment for a legitimate condition to promote normal physiology, without which he would suffer a range of health problems and live an impaired life, with or without football.

You are talking as if the treatment (administered before he was a pro) has turned him into some sort of physiological superman.

miralize

Messi (44 Liga goals in 2012) breaks Cristiano's record for most Liga goals in a calendar year: 43 in 2011.

He's close to Pele's all-time record of 75 in all competitions over a calendar year. Messi is currently on 71

The_Kew_Tour

Bodhisopha wrote: »

What an intensely moronic post.

He receieved medical treatment for a legitimate condition to promote normal physiology, without which he would suffer a range of health problems and live an impaired life, with or without football.

You are talking as if the treatment (administered before he was a pro) has turned him into some sort of physiological superman.

Still if it was the other way around people would be crying foul.

Bodhisopha

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Still if it was the other way around people would be crying foul.

Um yeah. Not sure what point you're trying to make, exactly.

The_Kew_Tour

Bodhisopha wrote: »

Um yeah. Not sure what point you're trying to make, exactly.

My point was made clear in previous post.

miralize

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

My point was made clear in previous post.

What previous post??

Dempsey

Bodhisopha wrote: »

What an intensely moronic post.

He receieved medical treatment for a legitimate condition to promote normal physiology, without which he would suffer a range of health problems and live an impaired life, with or without football.

You are talking as if the treatment (administered before he was a pro) has turned him into some sort of physiological superman.

and who is to say that barcelona didnt continue his treatment longer than they needed to? plenty of clubs think if its legal then its ethical, just look at all the poaching of players that goes on. sports scientists are pushing the limits of what the human body can take all the time and what legal means they can use.

its just a concidence that the guy who got hormone treatment is able to endure such a schedule of games over the last 4 years without any serious physical problems like fatigue, wear and tear injuries etc like 99% of pro footballers do.

Bodhisopha

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

My point was made clear in previous post.

If Ronaldo was 5ft7 and the best player in the world there would still be morons banging on about his physical advantages?

To what extent do you mean the other way around? Where does it end? Please clarify.

Bodhisopha

Dempsey wrote: »

and who is to say that barcelona didnt continue his treatment longer than they needed to? plenty of clubs think if its legal then its ethical, just look at all the poaching of players that goes on. sports scientists are pushing the limits of what the human body can take all the time and what legal means they can use.

its just a concidence that the guy who got hormone treatment is able to endure such a schedule of games over the last 4 years without any serious physical problems like fatigue, wear and tear injuries etc like 99% of pro footballers do.

Longer than they needed to until he was the physically domineering beast that we see today? At what point exactly should they have stopped, was there a set limit? Does it even make a difference? Would a 5ft5 Messi be better or worse than a 5ft10 Messi?

While you're being wildly conjectural, who's to say that Ronaldo wasn't doping at United? Stam and Ferdinand both have United links and serious question marks above their heads. Who's to say the sport isn't riddled with drug cheats?

As far as his ability to endure a tough schedule, plenty of players endure a tough schedule, Ronaldo included. If anything, Ronaldo has been less injury prone than Messi throughout their respective careers.

Any science backing up your claim that hgh treatment during your growing years makes you less susceptible to injury or is that as i suspect pure barstool speculation?

Dempsey

the fa have been covering up substance abuse and hiding players that have failed drugs tests, e.g gary o connor. what makes you think that football is squeaky clean? plenty of stories out there that make you wonder how hard clubs are pushing players and if its legal. check out the picture of cannavaro with a needle in his arm.

his height is irrelevant to what im saying. are you really trying to tell me that his treatment didnt have any influence on his muscle development?

mufcboy1999

ronaldo for me, i just think at madrid its all him and at barca inesta, xavi have a huge role to play in messi's success. Another thing to note is ronaldos goals/performances come from the wing while the past few seasons messi's playing as a striker picking up even more plaudits.

messi hasnt done it for argentina at all (frendlys dont count). In fairness to ronaldo he dragged portugal to semi's in the euros last summer aswell as performing well in his debut euro's when he was younger.

the one thing messi has over ronaldo that nobody can argue is his honesty in how he plays the game, ronaldos an easy target to hate for obvious reasons but as an athlete he has the potential to be the complete footballer, strenght, height, power, speed etc its a frighting combo.

Bodhisopha

Dempsey wrote: »

the fa have been covering up substance abuse and hiding players that have failed drugs tests, e.g gary o connor. what makes you think that football is squeaky clean? plenty of stories out there that make you wonder how hard clubs are pushing players and if its legal. check out the picture of cannavaro with a needle in his arm.

his height is irrelevant to what im saying. are you really trying to tell me that his treatment didnt have any influence on his muscle development?

I don't think football is squeaky clean, i'm saying while you're playing the "who's to say" game why not spread the net a little further than a player who recieved hgh treatment before he turned pro. I have no doubt that the use of performance enhancing drugs in sport is greater than most would suspect. I have suspicions about tennis in particular, but that's a different argument.

Of course his treatment had an influence on his muscle development at the time but it has his little bearing on his musculature now, what, 10 years later? Even then he was pretty slight. You talk as if he's some sort of beast, he's no stronger or well built than many players of similar height. Aguero, Roberto Carlos and Sanchez are the first few to spring to mind.

tolosenc

Lionel Messi

Think the main difference is that Messi carries more responsibility. It's up to him to win the game a lot more often than it is for Ronaldo.

mufcboy1999

tolosenc wrote: »

Think the main difference is that Messi carries more responsibility. It's up to him to win the game a lot more often than it is for Ronaldo.

Both carry the burdens of their clubs but in truth ronaldo carries more responsibility mainly down to the fact he doesn't rely on inesta.

The Floyd p

mufcboy1999 wrote: »

Both carry the burdens of their clubs but in truth ronaldo carries more responsibility mainly down to the fact he doesn't rely on inesta.

Neither does Messi. He scores a higher % of his teams goal than Cristiano Ronaldo does. He carried Barca on his own last year with 73 goals and 29 assists. Next top goalscorer after that was Fabregas and Alexis with 15 (Fabregas didn't score for Barca in the league after December)

Utter ****.

gustavo

mufcboy1999 wrote: »

ronaldo for me, i just think at madrid its all him and at barca inesta, xavi have a huge role to play in messi's success. Another thing to note is ronaldos goals/performances come from the wing while the past few seasons messi's playing as a striker picking up even more plaudits.

messi hasnt done it for argentina at all (frendlys dont count). In fairness to ronaldo he dragged portugal to semi's in the euros last summer aswell as performing well in his debut euro's when he was younger.

the one thing messi has over ronaldo that nobody can argue is his honesty in how he plays the game, ronaldos an easy target to hate for obvious reasons but as an athlete he has the potential to be the complete footballer, strenght, height, power, speed etc its a frighting combo.

He's been great for Argentina for the last year to be honest. I don't think you can say he hasn't done it for them. Also I would think that his "honesty" is over-stated.

mufcboy1999

gustavo wrote: »

He's been great for Argentina for the last year to be honest. I don't think you can say he hasn't done it for them. Also I would think that his "honesty" is over-stated.

True he has but there not competitive matches as far as I know ? Until messi actually does it on a competitive international stage it will always hang over his head.

There's no xavi or inesta in the Argentina side hence his below par displays for his country over the years pointing out how important a role they play in messi's success at club level.

Ronaldo has done it at united and now at Madrid with an unbelievable goal scoring record from the wing, he deserves more credit than he gets when compared to messi IMO.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

mufcboy1999 wrote: »

True he has but there not competitive matches as far as I know ? Until messi actually does it on a competitive international stage it will always hang over his head.

There's no xavi or inesta in the Argentina side hence his below par displays for his country over the years pointing out how important a role they play in messi's success at club level.

Ronaldo has done it at united and now at Madrid with an unbelievable goal scoring record from the wing, he deserves more credit than he gets when compared to messi IMO.

What utter ****, you don't even have the knowledge on Messi to back up these ridiculous claims..

fullstop

THFC wrote: »

What utter ****, you don't even have the knowledge on Messi to back up these ridiculous claims..

Clue might be in his username...

mufcboy1999

THFC wrote: »

What utter ****, you don't even have the knowledge on Messi to back up these ridiculous claims..

So what's the knowledge on messi other than he's a hormone booster?

klose

While its a valid point messi has the likes of xavi and iniesta around him you'd swear ronnie has pure dross around him the way people say it. At any time ronaldo is playing with ozil/di maria to the right of him and benzema or higuain in front of him. And then behind him he has khedeira who's a great box to box midfielder and alonso who can pick out an inch perfect pass from just about anywhere on the pitch.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

mufcboy1999 wrote: »

So what's the knowledge on messi other than he's a hormone booster?

Are you thick? He's still half the size of Ronaldo.

Your claims about him with Argentina are ****.

Your claims about him relying on Iniesta are ****.

Your claims Ronaldo carries more responsibility are ****.

At least back them up if you're going to try and spout this shíte.

mufcboy1999

THFC wrote: »

Are you thick? He's still half the size of Ronaldo.

Your claims about him with Argentina are ****.

Your claims about him relying on Iniesta are ****.

Your claims Ronaldo carries more responsibility are ****.

At least back them up if you're going to try and spout this shíte.

Calm down thfc, I hope that doesn't stand for that hopeless, trophyless your going lose Gareth bale spurs side :P

Oh here's me thinking growth hormones have something to do with performance. Once a booster always a booster, messi the lance armstrong of football.

He does rely on inesta it's a clear as daylight as he so clearly struggles with Argentina until of late but like I said frendilys don't count.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

mufcboy1999 wrote: »

Calm down thfc, I hope that doesn't stand for that hopeless, trophyless your going lose Gareth bale spurs side :P

Right, I take it 99 was the year you were born? Beyond pathetic tbh..

mufcboy1999 wrote: »

Oh here's me thinking growth hormones have nothing to do with performance. Once a booster always a booster, messi the lance armstrong of football.

Again, what a ridiculous statement, now the Argentina debate is fading this is really all the anti-Messi brigade can hang onto, isn't it?

mufcboy1999 wrote: »

He does rely on inesta it's a clear as daylight as he so clearly struggles with Argentina until of late but like I said frendilys don't count.

Have a look at his performances with Argentina over the last year and a bit. Having a look the Uruguay game there last week might be a good start. I won't even address the Iniesta bit, another classic quote to add to the mufcboy1999 wall of fame.

mufcboy1999

Hala ronaldo the *naturally* gifted footballer.

Blatter

Friendlies don't count?

Do World Cup qualifiers? Messi is the joint top goalscorer with 7 goals in the South American WC qualifiers.

mufcboy1999

Blatter wrote: »

Friendlies don't count?

Do World Cup qualifiers? Messi is the joint top goalscorer with 7 goals in the South American WC qualifiers.

Il have to check the rule book :P but the fact is he still hasn't done it on the big stage internationally. He couldn't even perform when his home nation Argentina hosted the copa America last year. I wouldn't go over board on most of those South American teams either, the elite international teams are to be found in Europe ATM.

Blatter

mufcboy1999 wrote: »

Il have to check the rule book :P but the fact is he still hasn't done it on the big stage internationally. He couldn't even perform when his home nation Argentina hosted the copa America last year. I wouldn't go over board on most of those South American teams either, the elite international teams are to be found in Europe ATM.

I thought he performed pretty well in the last World Cup, without setting the world alight. I didn't see much of him in the Copa.

Anyway, the Argentinian national team has been horrendously mismanaged over the last several years, it's only now that Sabella seems to have them playing as a team with direction and a sense of purpose.

When this happens, Messi starts to play unreal. Surprise surprise.

inmyday

This has turned into the WORST thread on boards.ie at the moment.

They are both quality players.

End of.

mufcboy1999

Blatter wrote: »

I thought he performed pretty well in the last World Cup, without setting the world alight. I didn't see much of him in the Copa.

Anyway, the Argentinian national team has been horrendously mismanaged over the last several years, it's only now that Sabella seems to have them playing as a team with direction and a sense of purpose.

When this happens, Messi starts to play unreal. Surprise surprise.

The booster will be judged at the next World Cup.

elefant

how do you put a user on ignore?

Melion

What has Ronaldo done at international level that Messi hasn't?

maximoose

mufcboy1999 wrote: »

Il have to check the rule book :P but the fact is he still hasn't done it on the big stage internationally.

This is always trotted out as a flaw for both Messi and Ronnie (and plenty more too) to say that they aren't as good as people think

When Messi/Ronaldo consistently deliver world class performances in one of the best leagues in the world and the best tournament going (CL) year after year, with ridiculous scoring stats ... wtf does their international record really matter

Honestly, anyone who tries to use that against either of these two is just trying to nitpick to appease their grudge. Two stupidly talented, truly world class players.

sReq | uTeK

maximoose wrote: »

This is always trotted out as a flaw for both Messi and Ronnie (and plenty more too) to say that they aren't as good as people think

When Messi/Ronaldo consistently deliver world class performances in one of the best leagues in the world and the best tournament going (CL) year after year, with ridiculous scoring stats ... wtf does their international record really matter

Honestly, anyone who tries to use that against either of these two is just trying to nitpick to appease their grudge. Two stupidly talented, truly world class players.

Yea, I've never really understood this, in the modern game I think we can all realistically say that with the exception of maybe one or two national teams competitive club football is at a much higher level, I'm talking about for instance champions league knockout stages.

Does it really matter if they don't perform in a few games at the end of the year when they've scored 70+ goals and assisted 25+ times in the 50 games that came before the Euros/World Cup.

Both amazing players, couldn't really call it and I think they should be judged on their own merits, peace y0.

Iang87

mufcboy1999 wrote: »

The booster will be judged at the next World Cup.

I was gonna comment about the stupidity of your argument but instead I'll give you a list:

Cruyff
Zico
Socrates
Weah (never played in one)
Cantona (never played in one)
Giggs (never played in one)
Best (never played in one)
Maldini
Platini
Di Stefano (never played in one)
Puskas
Raul



Roque Junior (who couldn't cut it at Leeds)
Kleberson
Bernard Diomede (remember him)

The top list is of players who have never won or never played in a world cup. The second list is of players who in there back pocket, yes you guessed it, have that world cup winners medal which you place so much importance on.

Now tell me why there is so much emphasis on a tournament that happens once every 4 years? Why is this the deciding factor in a players legacy? 7 matches played once every 4 years and you're willing to disregard everything else because of that despite the fact the manager may be poor, other players on the team may be nowhere near your standard or God forbid you were just born in England.

So you can ignore that which I'm sure you will and go back to calling messi a booster and judge him on world cup performances.

bullvine

I think personally at the moment Real would cope better without Ronaldo than Barca without Messi. Messi is the greatest player of this century, the greatest since Maradona, no question!

The world cup debate will always be used as a stick to beat him with unfortunately and I agree with that. As a thought quickly pick the 10 greatest players of all time without thinking and you can guarantee most of them will have had a great world cup under their belt. This may not be fair but this is what history has thought us, they may not have won it but it whats helped define their careers.

Personally, I think hes destined to have a good tournament in 2014 and then his critics will have to eat humble pie!

GavRedKing

Certainly with WC held played in Brazil looks like its going to favour the South Americans.

Also Argentina are now playing some of the best football they've played since the 90's as they've a bit of stability and a manger that isnt just trying to force everything through Messi like previous regimes.

I've no real interest in using Internationals and WC's as a way of measuring players as I rate the UCL higher then the WC's in terms of quality and both players reguarly perform exceptionally well in this.

witnessrenegade

Ibrahimovic

Turtwig

I do not for one second buy the argument that Messi hasn't performed for Argentina. The guy almost carried them through the Copa. It's no secret they've been awfully managed. Tactically at the last WC they were a shambles. At the Copa they were a shambles too but not as much. Now that they actually look like a competent team it's no surprise that Messi is playing amazing.

On the subject of Messi injuries. I'm pretty sure Redout (Miss that guy SO much!) had a post explaining all the injury problems he had for ages. The guy kept getting injured! The Barca medical team (which Fabregas was blown away by compared to what he had at Arsenal) came to the conclusion that the way to prevent tears, especially in his hamstrings, was simply keep him playing more. It's in that Barca megathread somewhere in less bastardised and more accurate detail.

The_Kew_Tour

Messi does not have to win WC with Argentina to be considered great(est), but if he was to play major role in Argentina winning WC in 2014 in the back garden of their greatest rivals that would be something else.

bullvine

Using Zidane for example with the exception of his goal in the 2002 champions league final his club career is not as memorable probably compared to Messi or Ronaldo's but its his performances at 2 world cups and 2 European Championships that have propelled him to greatness.

BetterCallSaul

He's scored 12 in his last 8 games for Argentina this year.

31 goals in 75 games is hardly bad either.

For comparison, Maradona's record is 34 goals in 91 games.

4th highest scorer in the nations history at 25 and with another 5 he will be 2nd.

The only time I really see Argentina play is at the WC, where he played well for me in 2010, but just didn't find the net.

If this is him playing poorly for the national team I look forward to when he hits form.